886 COMMONS DEBATES June 19, 1869
[...] On the item for opening up communication
with the North West, &c.
Hon. Mr. Holton objected to the Government asking for so large a sum as $1,460,000
for this purpose, as it was clear from their
own statement that they did not expect to
spend this summer more at the outside than
some $200,000 or $300,000. This was the statement of the Minister of Public Works
last
evening. It was the intention of the Government apparently to offer in the London
market the bonds of the Dominion guaranteed by
the Imperial Government to the extent of
ÂŁ300,000. This sum was to pay off the Hudson's Bay Company, and in connection with
these bonds it was probably the intention
of the Government to offer an equal amount
of Dominion bonds unguaranteed. The object
for which this latter loan was sought would
be declared in the prospectus in which the
loan was offered. But the appropriation on
which this half of the loan was based would
be cancelled by the time $200,000 or so had
been expended and the remainder would then
probably go, contrary to the terms on which
the loan was negotiated, to replenish the
exchequer of the Hon. the Finance Minister,
and assist him perhaps in recouping the
former loan under the Imperial guarantee,
which he had undertaken to recoup. Regard
it in what light he would, he (Mr. Holton)
looked on so large an appropriation for an
indefinite purpose, as being unsound in the
last degree. If the hon. gentlemen were prepared with a bold policy for opening up
and
setting that country he would be prepared to
consider it. But, instead of securing the adoption of such a policy the course the
Government were now pursuing would result in the
Dominion being bled to death by these annual
expenditures of a few hundred thousand
dollars to the accomplishment of no purpose
beyond that of depleting the Treasury and
crippling our resources.
Hon. Mr. Rose said that the hon. member
was aware that without taking this step the
Government could not get power to borrow
the amount needed. He quite agreed with
the hon. member as to the desirability of a
bold and comprehensive policy with reference
to the opening up and settlement of the
North-West, and for that purpose asked a
sum which would probably be more than
enough so as far as this year's expenditure
was concerned. When the Government had
to go on the market for the ÂŁ300,000, for the
purchase of the territory, it would be extremely unwise in them not to take advantage
of this, and raise some more on their
887
own unguaranteed debentures on account.
The hon. gentleman made some further explanations, which were inaudible in the
gallery, except that he said, that in entering
on this new territory the Government had
really no idea of what amount they would
require to spend.
The item was concurred in, and the four
following items.
On the item, $8,000 for Emigration,
Sir John A. Macdonald explained that the
Government, in furtherance of Emigration,
had appointed as Emigration Agent Mr. Moylan, an Irish Catholic gentleman, who had
been a long time in the country and had
ample experience in Ireland as well as Canada. It was proposed to give him ÂŁ300 a
year
and an office. A sub-agent was also to be
appointed in the North of Ireland. It was
proposed to appoint a Protestant agent. A
Scotch agent would also be appointed; Scotch
emigration being, as a rule, of the very best
class. Mr. Allan, of the Montreal Steamship
line, had been spoken to to find a suitable
man.
The item was concurred in.
On the item, $20,000 for Collection of
Customs,
Mr. Mackenzie said that he thought the
expense of collecting the revenue of Halifax,
10 per cent, was too much. The Minister of
Customs had promised to take steps to reduce
the expenditure at an early day. It was also
charged by an hon. member of that House
that for out-port services a number of useless
appointments had been made for purely
political reasons. It was charged that a number of men were appointed to such positions
where no revenue was collected.
Hon. Mr. Tilley replied that there were no
out-port officers at all in the port of Halifax.
There was no port nearer than Tangier
where any such officers were employed. He
believed that in Halifax and other ports persons had been placed in the offices at
a later
period of life than ought to have been the
case. He hoped to get rid of these, as they
were inefficient, but did not see his way to
doing so at present. As to the cost of revenue
collection at Halifax, it was 5 and 10 per
cent, as stated. He was satisfied that a reduction in the out-port service might take
place,
for, do what he could in that direction, hon.
gentlemen would see that for the first year
888 COMMONS DEBATES June 19, 1869
of Confederation the cost of the service under
discussion was $24,000. This year it was proposed to reduce it to $20,000.
Mr. McDonald (Lunenburg) explained that
a much larger number of vessels come into
Halifax in proportion to the amount of $8,000,
than into other ports like Montreal, where
the importations were carried on in larger
vessels than was the case at Halifax. The
number of vessels at Halifax being much
larger the expense of collection was of course
greater. As to the charge that a number of
elderly persons had been taken into the Customs Department in that Province, the Minister
of Customs was mistaken. There were
old men of 76 and 80 in the service, but they
had entered it 40 years ago, were miserably
paid, and were in fact unable to leave. Some
provision should be made for such men.
Mr. Jones dissented from the idea that persons who had grown grey in the service of
this country should be provided for by the
country. Clergymen, farmers, mechanics grew
grey in the service of their country, but no
one proposed to pension them out of the
public funds.
Mr. Chipman said the common feelings of
humanity prompted men to provide for servants who had grown old in their services,
and even for their support. The Government
should act on the same principle.
Mr. Harrison said that in different trades
there were arrangements, by making small
contributions, to make provision for their old
or infirm members. A similar arrangement
should be made with reference to the employees.
Hon. Mr. Wood pointed out that the principle of life insurance was open to the civil
service. He was opposed to the present system.
The item was agreed to.
On the item, Purchase of Red River Territory $1,460,000,
Mr. Mackenzie suggested that the Government should take means to issue, for the
benefit of intending settlers, information as
to the topography of the country, and the
means to be adopted to secure a location. He
suggested also the propriety of procuring for
distribution a certain number of copies of
Russell's very valuable work, which, he remarked, contained more information than
any other as to the Territory.
889
Hon. Mr. Gray expressed his high approval
of Mr. Russell's work, and his concurrence
in the suggestion that a number of copies be
procured for distribution.
Hon. Mr. Dunkin approved the suggestion,
and desired also that it should be distributed
in the French language.
Mr. Jones (Leeds) made some remarks as
to the policy which should be adopted in
opening up a route to the Red River. He recommended the Government to be very cautious
about spending much money on the
mixed land and water route from Lake Superior to Fort Garry. Such a route could not
be open for more than four months in the
year. He pronounced the country known as
the fertile belt to be utterly unfit for agricultural purposes.
Mr. Jones—Not directly but indirectly, in
shewing the influence of the planetary arrangement on high latitudes. (Laughter.)
Mr. Simpson from his personal knowledge
coincided with the views of Mr. Dawson on
the question of route. He thought there was
no chance of getting emigrants in by way of
the United States. They would be beset on
their way by agents with all sorts of inducements to get them to settle short of their
destination. He hoped the Government would
press forward the works recommended by
Mr. Dawson. It was premature at present to
consider the question of a railroad.
Mr. Chamberlin pointed out that even if
the route from Lake Superior, as part of
main line of communication, should ultimately be abandoned, it would be valuable as
a
colonization road to the valuable lands in the
vicinity of Rainy Lake.
Hon. Mr. McDougall, with reference to the
suggestion of the member for Lambton, did
not see how he could meet his views as to circulating the publication to which reference
had been made. He shared in the high appreciation of that work which had been expressed,
but that work was now in course of
sale, and all who desired to make themselves
familiar with the character and resources of
the country would procure the work. A large
edition would be published of the report of
the Committee on Emigration; and Mr.
Dawson's evidence, embodied in that report,
would give, he understood, very clearly the
information desired. But as a general rule he
890 COMMONS DEBATES June 19, 1869
thought the giving of such information should
be left to private enterprise. The Government,
at least, should be careful in putting its
imprimatur on the statement which would guide
immigrants in deciding as to the place of settlement. The Government during the summer
would take some further steps to ascertain
by examination the character of the country.
It had got into the newspapers that as Minister of Public Works he proposed shortly
to
visit the territory. He hoped, with the assent
of his colleagues, he might be able to do so,
and he trusted he might be accompanied by
the Minister of Public Works of Ontario,
which would receive a large addition to its
domain.
Hon. Mr. McDougall—By the settlement of
the boundary of Upper Canada. He believed
the boundary of Upper Canada extended
further into the territory than its jurisdiction
had ever gone, and he presumed that Upper
Canada would find it easier to deal with the
Dominion Government in such a matter than
with the Hudson's Bay Company. As regarded the practicability of the route from
Fort William, that was a settled matter. He
thought there could be no question that it
was the duty of the Government to open up
the route that would afford the speediest
access to the territory, and postpone action
as to the permanent and more expensive communications until they had better ascertained
the character of the country, and the best
modes of reaching it.
Hon. Mr. Holton asked if he was to understand from the Minister of Public Works
that he considered Ontario inherited the claim
of Canada to a part of the territory, a claim
which covered nearly the whole of the desirable part of it.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said the pretension
was that the River Mississippi formed the
western boundary of Upper Canada, as fixed
by the Act of 1774. The Mississippi rose in
American territory; and the question as to the
extension of the line it formed would have to
be determined by local considerations. But it
was also claimed that the fertile portion of
the North-West formed part of Canada under
the old French
regime, and was therefore not
included in the charter of the Hudson's Bay
Company. But it was never contended that
that formed part of Upper Canada.
891
Hon. Mr. Holton, threw out especially for
the consideration of the Member for Cornwall
the suggestion whether the Province of Ontario, under its present able and economical
Government, might not with advantage to
itself and to the whole Dominion, undertake
this work of opening up communication with
the North-West, colonizing it, and annexing
it for the time being to Ontario, with the
proviso that at some future time it might come
into the Dominion as a separate Province.
Hon. John Sandfield Macdonald, as Premier
of Ontario, would have no objections to undertake the outlay of the money that was
now being voted by this House (Laughter.)
He did not suppose his hon. friend meant that
Ontario was to provide this money.
Hon. John Sandfield Macdonald said the
Province of Ontario had already lands enough
on hand and was satisfied With its present
condition without extending its domain in the
meantime. The chief benefit that Ontario got
from Confederation was that it had now the
management of its own affairs, and he was
afraid it would only result in loss and disaster if it were to enter on the large
speculation suggested by the member for Chateauguay, of annexing and opening up the
North-West. As regarded the boundary he
hoped they would not have so much trouble
in that matter with the Dominion Government as they had had with regard to getting
the arbitration between Ontario and and
Quebec proceeded with. He believed that matter would have been sooner settled if they
had referred it to the Emperor of Russia or
King of the Belgians. (Hear, hear.)
The item was concurred in and the two
following items.
On the 3rd, Advances by the Government
during the Fenian Raid to St. Catharines,
$800.
Hon. Mr. Holton asked an explanation respecting a claim so extraordinary on the face
of it.
Hon. Mr. Rose said it was the amount expended by Capt. Schofield on behalf of St.
Catharines in feeding the troops during the
raid, which amount he was made personally
responsible for in an action, and in order to
relieve him the Government placed this
amount in the estimates.
899
have brought it before the House at the time
as a matter of privilege, instead of waiting
to go to the library and fortify himself with
authorities.
The Speaker said the language used by
the member for Cornwall was capable of two
constructions. The construction that occurred
to him at the moment was one which conveyed a severe reflection on himself. He had
no doubt now, however, that the hon. gentleman's language was used in a different
sense, and he begged to express his regret at
having misunderstood him. (Hear, hear.)
INSOLVENT ACT
On motion of
hon. Mr. Rose, the Amendments made in the Senate respecting the Insolvency Act were read and amended.
THIRD READINGS
The House went into Committee on the
following Bills which were read a third time
and passed.
Act respecting the Inspection of Steamboats, for the greater safety of passengers
by
them.
Sir John A. Macdonald.
Act to provide for the Temporary Government of Rupert's Land and the North-West
Territory when united with Canada.—
Sir John
A. Macdonald.
The following Bills were Considered in
Committee and reported:-
Respecting Prompt and Summary Administration of Criminal Justice in certain cases.
—
Sir John A. Macdonald.
With the consent of the House
Sir John A.
Macdonald moved that Monday be a Government day, and that the House meet from 11
till 1, 3 till 6, and 7:30 till the adjournment;
With the consent of the House His Excellency, the Governor-General, would prorogue
the House on Tuesday or Wednesday—Carried.
The House adjourned at 12 o'clock.
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