[The committee passed the section on the seal fishery, and then passed on to the section
concerning the whalefishery[2] and Appendix E[3]]
Mr. Ashbourne I was wondering if there is any
fear of overfishing, or whether there is any sign
of diminution of whales around the coast. I was
also wondering whether there is any ambergris.
which is used as a base for highly priced perfumes, and if it is exported, and I was
wondering
if we could get any idea of the value.
Mr. Crosbie As far as we can learn there is no
sign of the diminution of the whales, and they
have got a scientist there the last few years. To
my knowledge there has not been any ambergris.
Mr. Crosbie I would not be sure, but the quota
has been filled this year.
Mr. Crosbie There is an international agreement, which sets the number of whales that can
be taken.
Mr. Harrington These figures on page 7 would
seem to indicate that there is no shortage of
whales. There is a steady increase.
Mr. Crosbie From 1940 to 1942 the Hawke's
Harbour plant was closed.
Mr. Job Do you have two steamers there or only
one?
Mr. Ballam Mr. Crosbie says this is a million
dollar industry, and he anticipates in the future it
will be reduced to $600,000. Why do you anticipate such reduction if the demand is
so great?
Mr. Crosbie Most everyone realises that during
the next three or four years the price will come
down. I would not expect to see the price maintained.
Mr. Ballam It could be maintained if you had a
greater production?
Mr. Hickman is it a fact that the Norwegians
have already lowered their price this year?
Mr. Crosbie True, it has dropped from $550 a
March 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 397
ton to $503, but I don't think that's a fair value.
It's in connection with the British government
quid pro quo, and on top of that I might say that
Canada is mixed up with it.
Mr. Crosbie Great Britain gets her wheat from
Canada for $1.50, so Canada and Great Britain
got together and set the Norwegian price. They
can still charge us $18 for flour.
Mr. Smallwood Could Mr. Crosbie tell us what
happens to most of the whale oil produced in
Newfoundland after it goes away, and why the
thing that happens to it after it leaves does not
happen here in Newfoundland. He knows what I
mean. It goes to Canada does it not? What do they
do with it?
Mr. Crosbie Prior to the war it all went to
Europe. Only under wartime conditions has it
gone to Canada. It goes to a plant where it is
deodorised and hardened; some parts of it are
used for eating, and some is sent back to Newfoundland for margarine. In this country
you
can't establish a plant of this kind without a
minimum of 5,000 tons.
Mr. Smallwood ....How many tons would you
get out of the whales we have here?
Mr. Crosbie No, but you can use seal oil and
herring oil, but the last five years we have not had
that much including all the oils. It looks brighter
in the future, but I can't say for sure. I understand
Lever Brothers may do it in the future.
Mr. Hollett Are they all Newfoundlanders
employed in the whaling factories?
Mr. Crosbie All except the gunners, who are
mostly Norwegians. There are two Smiths who
have been whaling for 20 years and neither one
of them will take a gun yet. Outside of Williamsport
[1] they are all Newfoundlanders, but the
gunners are all Norwegians.
Mr. Northcott This list of wages, does that include all people employed?
Mr. Job I am rather surprised that this whaling
industry is not conducted on a very large scale in
Newfoundland. I think there were factories in ten
different places around the island some years ago,
and it was manufactured just the same as it is
today.... There was between $500,000 and $1
million invested in that industry, which was lost
by the disappearance of the whales.
Mr. Smallwood There was a world wide
shortage of whales for a time.
Mr. Job And the price of whale oil at that time
— I think Mr. Crosbie mentioned it was around
$503 a ton — had gone down to about $60 a ton,
and it was impossible to continue.
[After some further discussion the section passed, and the committee moved to the
section dealing with subsidiary fisheries]
Mr. Job ....We talk cleverly of the development
of the fisheries but there is a good deal to be said
as to whether we will have the manpower to
develop them unless we change our method of
catching, etc., because without question the tendency has been in recent years to
leave the
fisheries and go to the forestry industry for one
thing; also the growing generation is perhaps
better educated than the older generation and a
number of them like to seek what they term white
collar work, and what effect those two points will
have on the fishery is a question for the future. I
think for that reason we have got to consider more
the mechanisation of the fishery if we are going
to keep our quantity up.
[There followed a discussion of the halibut and salmon fisheries]
Mr. Northcott ....I see dogfish were left out. I
am glad to see that the lobster industry is a big
thing. I notice some lobsters were sent to Sweden.
The price is really marvelous.... We have good
inspectors, but not enough. Around our way an
inspector will give us a license, and go to the
other place and give another man a license. Then
he goes off, and when he returns nobody has seen
the lobster that has gone in those tins. It is not his
fault, he is worked to death. If we could educate
some of our teachers to assist in the inspection of
lobster, salmon, herring, etc., during June, July
and August I think it would be a good thing.
Every other day you could have them come in and
look over your factory and see that everything is
tidy and clean. It is a sad state of affairs.... I think
all lobsters should be inspected right on the road
before anybody buys them. For instance Jack
398 NATIONAL CONVENTION March 1947
Jones puts up 100 cases of lobsters and sends
them to St. John's. When these are inspected ten
cases are thrown out, and when this man gets his
returns he is disappointed. The merchant is not to
blame. When they are culled out in St. John's
they feel that something has gone wrong. Last
year we bought 500-800 cases of salmon and
lobsters, and these were culled on our premises,
and we sent the man his report back and his
cheque. Five cases were spoiled and he got disappointed and hurt over it, but if these
lobsters
could be inspected right there on the premises and
that man given a clean receipt there would be no
need of any other inspection.
Mr. Northcott Yes, sir. In nine cases out of ten
they come in to St. John's before any inspection
is made, and they come from Green Bay or
Lumsden, and when that man gets his final
receipt perhaps ten cases were thrown out, and it
creates a bad feeling between the buyer and the
man. If we had a few extra inspectors he could
grade the lobsters before they came in to St.
John's.
Mr. Vardy That is what is being done in our
district. I have personally inspected some of the
factories. One man made three visits last year in
my presence He just picked a tin and opened it.
[1]
The existing fisheries inspectors have not complained about being overworked The regular
inspectors make inspections, and I have not seen
any fish plants as clean as the lobster factories.
Mr. Harrington Mr. Northcott raised an interesting point, and this is the matter of the dogfish.
I have here
The Life History of the Spiny Dogfish,
and the Vitamin A Value of Dogfish Liver Oil by
Dr. Wilfred Templeman.
[2] He says an abundance
of dogfish affect unfavourably every other
fishery, particularly net fisheries, such as salmon,
and codfishing, particularly handlining and
trawls. Dogfish lie near the surface or in intermediate layers of water and take all
of the bait
before the hook can reach the bottom where the
cod reside. In view of the importance of this
matterl wonder if the Committee had considered
what could be done about the dogfish.
Mr. Job I am afraid the dogfish don't have much
commercial value, and the fishermen must wait
until the dogfish end. Its only a problem for a few
weeks of the season.
Mr. Hillier What Mr. Harrington has said is
quite tme. There are times when they are unable
to bait their lines because dogfish are so plentiful,
but there seems to have been no remedy discovered, there must still continue to be
dogfish.
[3]
Mr. Penney I wonder could Mr. Job tell us the
meaning of the export value on Appendix F of the
salmon fishery. Salmon chilled, exported to Bermuda 30 lbs — $16, and frozen, to Bermuda,
60
lbs. — $16 Now then again, to Australia 48 lbs
— $50 These are the correct values, are they?
Mr. Job They were probably presents sent by
people I should imagine, but they had to go
through the Customs, you see.
Mr. Ashbourne Mr. Chairman, according to the
figures given here it is very evident that these
fisheries, particularly the lobster fishery and the
salmon fishery, are very important fisheries to
Newfoundland, and it is very interesting to note
that the lobsters exported to Canada and United
States amounted to over $650,000. We see also
that the markets, Canada and the States together
with the United Kingdom, for our salmon fishery
exports is good, and in view of the high value of
these fisheries to Newfoundland I think that some
scientific investigation should be undertaken and
continually pursued to see that we are not overfishing these important fisheries.
To my mind,
there are no statistics in this report to back it up,
but I rather think that the salmon fishery is a
declining one, and I have often wondered what
will be the future of the salmon fishery, and what
are the causes of the serious decline in the catches
of salmon particularly. Some people think that
the increase in the number of seals the past few
years has been probably brought about by the fact
that these seals may be preying upon the salmon.
I don't know. I believe the recommendation that
some assistance be provided for Dr. Templeman
in the biological department would be money
well spent in investigating the decline of these
fisheries, because they are very important
March 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 399
fisheries. The lobster and salmon fisheries come
to almost $2 million, and we should certainly be
greatly interested to see that they are scientifically fished and conservatively fished,
and not over-
fished, so that by and by the salmon and lobsters
will have to have a closed season to prevent their
extinction.
Mr. Newell On that point I note that on the first
page of the Appendix the total poundage of live
lobsters to Canada and USA is approximately 2.5
million pounds, and the total returns approximately $650,000, and I think that works
out
to around 25 1/3 cents per pound as the declared
value to the Customs. When I take what value is
declared to the Customs, and the figure we have
is 25 cents per pound on that basis given there,
and then on page 57 of the report, which has not
been read yet, in the section on co-operatives, you
have the fact that they shipped 900,000 pounds
and got a net proceeds of $300,000, and the price
to the fishermen is given as an average of 32 cents
per pound. Well, that would seem to further substantiate the argument that this other
figure is
considerably too low, that actually it should be a
good deal higher than that. I don't know if losses
involved by the private companies were so much
heavier than the losses of the co-operative, because the figure of 32 cents per pound
averaged
by the fishermen in your co-operative take the
losses into account.
Mr. Newell Page 57. That would seem to
strengthen the idea that the value of our lobster
exports might be up to $1.5 million.
Mr. Keough In the shipment of live lobster the
exporter might invoice them up at this price and
then the price might jump and he gets that extra.
Mr. Newell I am not questioning the validity of
our information, but what I am suggesting is that
if one group of people average that price over the
season it stands to reason that all others might
have had a chance to do likewise — therefore the
value would be considerably higher.
Mr. Fudge Mr. Chairman, I wish to retire owing
to being on the Woods Labour Board.
Mr. Chairman The motion is that this section
do pass as read.
Mr. Reddy I would like to make some reference
to Mr. Harrington's remarks re dogfish. They are
a menace to fishermen all overthe country. A few
years ago, due to persistent agitation by fishermen, an experiment was carried out
in connection
with IR. Dickson of Fortune, and large numbers
were caught and freighted to Canada. The thing
became uneconomical because it involved too
much expense, but it did destroy much dogfish.
It had to be abandoned although it did do much
good. The Commission of Government agreed
whole-heartedly in destroying this menace.
[The section was adopted]
Mr. Job The next section is "By Products",
pages 324-35,
[1] and Appendix G.
[2]
[The Secretary read from the report]
Mr. Smallwood These two plants which you
spoke of in St. John's and Bonavista, is there not
one in Harbour Grace for fishmeal?
Mr. Crosbie No, there is a freezing plant in
Harbour Grace.
Mr. Crosbie It may be brought from Harbour
Grace to St. John's.
Mr. Hickman Cod liver oil factories — there
were 127 licensed in 1945 and only 111 in 1946,
yet further on in the report it says that the demand
is in excess of the supply. I was wondering why
the reduction of 16 plants last year.
Mr. Keough I obtained these figures from the
Fisheries Board, and I put that question to them
but they could not give me any satisfaction. It was
not a matter of licenses being refused, they were
not applied for.
Mr. Starkes The price last year did not warrant
it and they did not ask for a license.
Mr. Smallwood Won't you have to amend this
now: "We are advised that the operators of one
large plant in St. John's (and another in Bonavista), have now made arrangements for
the
manufacture of their waste." Mr. Reddy says
there is a plant in Burin, and that will be three.
Mr. Crosbie Earlier in the report it was mentioned that there was one in Burin and one at Isle
aux Morts. There will be four.
Mr. Smallwood Could Mr. Crosbie tell us what
white fishmeal is, is that meal made from codfish
rather than herring?
400 NATIONAL CONVENTION March 1947
Mr. Crosbie The difference between them is
that white fishmeal is made from non-oily fish,
and the other is that which is produced from fish
of oil content.
Mr. Smallwood What type of manufacture of
fishmeal do they have in these two plants, is it the
new process or the old method?
Mr. Crosbie The plants in St. John's and
Bonavista will have the new method, the others
have the old method.
Mr. Bailey I wonder if we can utilise sharks'
livers in this country?
Mr. Crosbie The number of sharks that go
ashore is negligible. T here's not the quantity of
fish to warrant it.
Mr. Smallwood We have lots of sharks in this
country, Mr. Crosbie!
Mr. Smallwood If we could manufacture all the
sharkes we would have a very large ourput.
Mr. Vardy I wonder, did the Committee give
any consideration to pothead whaleoil in this
country?
Mr. Crosbie The Committee did not give a great
deal of consideration to it. As you know these are
driven ashore, and by the time you have gotten
around to processing them they are fairly putrid.
Of course some are taken in the canning season
over in Trinity bay, and they can be used. I
believe that's going ahead in Trinity Bay this
summer.
Mr. Vardy Yes, I know. I asked the question for
the benefit of my listeners. It will be a future
industry in this country, I believe.
[The section was adopted]
Mr. Job The next section is pages 35-37,
[1] Canning Industry, and Appendix H.
[2] That's the
second last subcommittee report. The next section is pages 37-40.
[3]
[The Secretary read from the report]
Mr. Smallwood I can see some little idea of how
they can guess at $24 - $25 million for the future.
Can they give us some idea of how they break
that down?
Mr. Job I think it was probably due to the state
of the livers of the Committee because there is
absolutely no way to make it up. It is clearly guess
work. We simply took what we thought was a
reasonable amount to allow for the decline. Many
people think that we will have a considerable
increase in volume, especially in such things as
herring and canning and by products, and we
thought we should put something in. If anyone
can tell us how to get any other figures we will
be glad.
Mr. Smallwood I will be glad to help you, Mr.
Job! Seriously, further back in your report here,
dealing with codfish alone you said that the future
value of exports might be $10 million, and to be
on the safe side you had better put it at $8 million.
Well, if you take the production last year, $34.5
million, counting the million that was eaten here
in Newfoundland, you will find that nearly $17.5
million of that was salt codfish alone, and you
figure for the future $8 million, less than half.
Incidentally in this total for last year, have you
got the oils?
Mr. Smallwood Yes, $2.5 million for oils
beginning a year or two from now. Surely oils are
going to be worth a lot less than $2.5 million,
unless the fall in price is more than made up by
the increase in output? We might still have $2.5
million worth to export in that case, but all
through this long table making up $3.5 million,
surely to goodness in the next three or four years
there is going to be considerable decline in value
of a great many items, even if there is an increase
in the value of many others, and to make a total
of $34.5 million and thenjust lop off $10 million
and call it $24 million for the future is nothing
more than a pious hope.
Mr. Smallwood The Convention is trying to
find out if the country is likely to be self-supporting in the next ten or 12 years.
If we can't make
some kind of fairly reliable estimate of what our
fishery economy is going to be worth in the next
eight or ten years, half of the country's economy,
we are only guessing. We have surely got to
arrive at something in the nature of a fairly reliable estimate of what the fisheries
are going to be
March 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 401
worth in the next eight or ten years.
Mr. Job You will have to show us how to do it.
Mr. Smallwood Well, I would too, but if we
can't do it how can we say whether we will be
self-supporting or not in the next eight or ten
years? I hope that will bring Mr. Crosbie to his
feet.
Mr. Crosbie I don't know, there is an awful lot
of hot air around here. I don't agree with Mr. Job.
It was not a blind guess. I don't know if he knows
how this $2.5 million was made up on oil. It was
not until sometime in November or December
that the large increase in oil came, so actually it
would be nearer $5 million instead of $2.5 million — pretty near double, so actually
that figure
of $2.5 million is somewhere near double since
November, and in some cases triple.
Mr. Job We can only take the Customs'
declared value.
Mr. Crosbie I am not criticising. I am trying to
explain to Mr. Smallwood what the position is. I
am not one of the critics, and I don't intend to be.
Now with regards to the drop, where we estimate
a drop in salt codfish around $8 million. As I said
before, this country has one fish only, the codfish,
and as soon as we forget that attitude the sooner
the country will get on its feet. For one thing
alone, these figures for 1947 will be closer to $4.5
million rather than $2.5 million, that's for the
same quantity, and you are going to get increased
production over the next two or three years, and
additional quantities of fishrneal that have not
been exported before will take up a lot of the
slack. You have those canning plants, last year it
was somewhere in the vicinity of $8 million, and
there is no reason why we can't export $2-3
million worth of canned goods. I don't think this
estimate is too far wrong. lfI were to make a little
bet I might say that in the next few years it might
be $40 million.
Mr. Smallwood I am glad to hear Mr. Crosbie
express such optimism, but we have got to keep
our feet on the ground, you have to admit that.
Just come back to that table: haddock was
$300,000 last year, lobsters $1 million, and salmon close to $1 million. Sealskins
$500,000 last
year, squid $136,000, and then you have a large
number of other items, all at I imagine inflated,
shortage prices. Now, say you are right, oil that
was worth $2.5 million in 1946 in 1947 comes to
be worth $4.5 or $5 million, and even in 1948
let's say it is worth $5 million, surely by the end
of 1948 the world shortage of oil would be won.
There will be no shortage of oil two years from
now. It is true you can be producing more by that
time than you are now, but is it possible, unless
you get into herring in a big way, to increase your
output of oil and take up the falling prices? Even
if it is worth $5 million now, will it be worth that
two or three years from now? There must be a
limit to the amount of salmon and lobster you can
get. I am a tremendous believer in herring.
Iceland, which we look upon as a codfish
country, at the end of 1944 had 62 quick-freezing
plants in operation costing $10 million. In l945
they produced 200,000 tons of fish — how much
of that was codfish? 3,000 tons out of the 214,000
tons of all kinds of fish. We have not begun to
think of herring. I agree with Mr. Crosbie. We
must keep our feet on the ground.
Mr. Crosbie You are a great confederate, I
believe? There is a magazine called the
Fishing
Gazette and in it is an article called "The Year To
Come"; if you read that, you might be optimistic
about this country. I am not a magician. Lots of
people cannot tell what is going to happen within
the next five years. If the price comes down in
thiscountry, it will come down in other countries.
Within the next two years I expect to see $3
million worth of herring oil. We agreed upon an
annual expectancy of $25 million from our fish
ing industry. The only country I have seen pessimistic is my own.
Mr. Smallwood There is an editorial in the
Canadian Fisherman of January 1947, a review
of the past and the future; it reads: "The past year
has brought to an end an era of war-time
prosperity and easy markets for the commercial
fisheries. During the war there was a big demand
for sea foods. After the cessation of hostilities,
the demand continued to rehabilitate and feed the
destitute people of Europe. From now on we will
have to sell seafoods to countries now producing
their own requirements: during 1947 through
their lower standards of living. They are able to
fish the same grounds as ourselves, transport their
catch long distances for processing and then ship
back again at a market price which we cannot
meet."
Mr. Crosbie I do not care ifthis country never
sees a codfish for the next ten years. There are
halibut banks in the Gulf never touched. There
402 NATIONAL CONVENTION March 1947
are all sorts of fish. Personally, I am an optimist
more than a pessimist.
Mr. Bailey After listening to Mr. Smallwood I
was wondering just how countries like Portugal,
Spain and France can compete with us over here.
I can see how it can be done. We have no doubt,
as Mr. Crosbie says, a competitor in Norway as
far as codfish is concerned. Iceland has never
been a competitor. I cannot see how even Spain
and Portugal are going to feed the people, let
alone feed their own.... In 1909, 1907, 1908 and
1911 we could buy more for a dollar than we do
today. We should be concerned with what we will
be able to buy with what we produce. Take the
fisherman today, he is in one of the worst places
he has ever been in in the history of the shore
fishery. The men of my district, on the shore
fishery, their average earnings are $325; out of
that they had to come home and feed their
families — flour $18 a barrel. How much better
off they were if they caught 50 quintals in 1929,
than the men who catch 50 quintals today. He was
five times better off then. If the price of producing
fish comes down, then let the prices come down.
If it was not for the woods and land, you would
have more men on the dole than in 1930. That is
our shore fishermen.
Mr. Hollett I feel the Committee has made a
fairly conservative estimate of what things to
come are going to amount to as far as fish is
concemed.... I admire Mr. Crosbie's optimism I
feel quite sure that it will not go back more than
half.... I cannot agree with Mr. Smallwood that
the Committee overestimated on any false basis
whatsoever.... Looking at the figures, I am sure
the Committee which brought in this excellent
report has not falsely estimated. Nobody can
make an exact estimate. It must be tantamount to
a guess, although I am sure it is not a guess. I
entirely agree with the conclusions the Committee has come to.
[The section passed. The committee rose,
reported progress, and the Convention adjourned]
