2
THE NEWFOUNDLANDER.
HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.
THURSDAY, FEB. 9.
The house met at three o'clock.
Mr. KENT presented a petition from the Right Rev.
Dr. Mullock, Roman Catholic Bishop of St. John's,
which was received and read, setting forth that he had
accidently learned that a Bill Ĺżor the registration of
births, marriages and deaths had been before the house
and had passed a second reading, imposing duties and
penalties on the Roman Catholic Clergy, who are in
nowise officials of the Government, salaried or otherwise; that while petitioner believed
the principle of
the bill to be a step in the way of civilisation, still he
considered it unjust that, without notice to the parties
concerned, penalties and duties should be imposed upon
them, that petitioner and his clergy will willingly allow
the government registrar, under certain limitations,
access to the parochial registries of baptisms and marriages, but respectfully decline
to become the unpaid
officials of the government, under penalties; and praying that the house would not
pass the bill in its present
form.
Mr. KENT, in moving that the petition lie on the
table, said the petition had reference to the fifth, sixth,
fifteenth and concluding sections of the bill. His Lordship Dr Mullock and his clergy
were not willing to be
compelled by law to make to the Government, under
penalties, the returns provided for by that bill. They
were not officials of the Governinent, and if a law were
passed compelling them to make returns as to the manner in which they administered
the rites of the Church
of which they were ordained clergymen, they considered it would be tantamount to a
penal enactment. He
(Mr Kent) thought the hon leader of the Government
should have been more cautious in drawing up the bill
—he should have trusted for the success of such a measure more to moral influence
than to any penal enactment lie (Mr Kent) had looked over the Irish act
for the registration of births, marriages and deaths, and
he did not see that it contained a single penal enactment, notwithstanding that there
was an established
church in that country, whose clergy were more amenable to the Government than those
of a Church having
no connection with the state. He was perfectly satisfied the leader of the Government
would take the
matter into consideration, and so modify the provisions
of the measure as to remove its objectionable features.
The law should be so framed as not to excite the conscientious fear or alarm of any
clergyman whatever.
In Ireland, he Ĺżound the registration was entirely carried out by laymen.
Mr. Talbot was satisfied the leader of the Government would, in committee on that
bill, meet the wishes
of the Right Rev Bishop and his clergy.
Mr RENOUF—That bill, in its present shape, would
impose onerous duties, under penalties, upon clergy
men who received no stipend whatever from the Government.
Mr KAVANAGH had great pleasure in supporting
the prayer of that petition, and trusted the leader of
the Government would so modify the measure as to
render it acceptable to all.
Mr CASEY was sure it never was the intention of the
learned Attorney General to impose penalties on the
Catholic clergy under that bill. The duties of the
Catholic clergy were most arduous. They had scarcely
any leisure; and to impose additional duties upon them
would be highly improper. He was satisfied that, in
committee, the hon leader of the Government would
remove what was considered objectionable in the bill.
Ordered that the petition lie on the table.
Mr MOORE presented a petition from Thomas Dwyer
and others, of Upper Island Cove, which was received
and read, praying for a grant to complete a road in
that locality.
Mr RENOUF presented a petition from John White
and others, of Petty Harbour, which was received and
read, praying for a grant to deepen the gut there.
Mr RENOUF, in moving that the petition lie on the
table, would heartily support its prayer. The petitioners were entitled to every consideration
from the Government, and he trusted that matter would receive
that consideration to which its importance, entitled it.
Mr CASEY supported the prayer of the petition.
When the wind blew from the North East the petitioners had very great difficulty in
mooring their boats. If
any money should be granted this session for breakwaters, he considered injustice
would be done to the
etitioners if their claim should not also be attended to.
They had not often asked anything from the Government; they had supported themselves
without asking
for poor relief, except a few this year.
Mr TALBOT quite agreed with his hon colleagues
that that was an important petition. These people were
industrious, and suffered great inconvenience and loss
from the want of proper shelter for their boats. He
trusted that petition would not be overlooked. The
people were entitled to consideration.
Ordered that the petition lie on the table.
Mr E D SHEA gave notice that on to-morrow he
would ask the hon Acting Colonial Secretary to lay on
the table a copy of the report of the Commander of
H.M.S.
Medea of the fisheries at Labrador.
On motion of the hon
ATTORNEY GENERAL, pursuant to order of the day, the house resolved itself into
committee of the whole on the bill for the registration
of births, marriages and deaths—Mr. Barron in the
Chair.
Hon. ATTORNEY GENERAL –The object of that bill
was to provide information as to the gradual growth
of population in this colony, and also to form a public
record by which the rights of parties in matters of inheritance might be established.
Registers of births,
marriages and deaths were kept as a matter of record
in almost all civilized countries, and it might be considered a reproach to us that
hitherto we had no
enactment for such public records being kept. Statistical information on that subject
was also now considered a matter of great importance, and governments
bestowed great a tention on the collection of such
statistics, which enabled them to judge of the progress
of population and the sanitary state of the people; and
to some extent of their comfort and social condition.
The present bill was an attempt, and he must admit,
an imperfect attempt, to provide such a record. To
provide such a system of registrition as existed in the
United Kingdom might at present be too expensive.
But an attempt ought to be made, and when that
bill should have gone through committee, and they
had experience of its working, its imperfections could
be remedied by subsequent legislation. The greatest
difficulty he apprehended would be found in our population being so scattered, so
that there would be a
difficulty in sending the required information to the
proper officer. He did not consider that in the existing circuinstances of the colony
any money could be
appropriated towards giving effect to that measure.
He thought the Stipendiary Magistrates would be
willing to act as Registrars; and where there were no
Stipendiary Magistrates the Governor in Council
would appoint Registrars. When the sections of the
bill objected to in the petition presented by the hon.
member for St. John's East (Mr. Kent) came to be
considered, the objections to them would be taken up,
and he hoped the matter would be satisfactorily arranged. He concurred with the hon
member that the
co-operation of all was necessary to the proper working
of the measure, and hoped that in a matter of so
much importance to their own people, the aid of the
Roman Catholic clergy would be readily given to
carry out that registration efficiently.
Mr. KNET had great pleasure in supporting the
principle of the bill. It was as creditable to the hon.
Attorney General as was the information and research
which he had brought to bear on the question. The
increase of population was shown by the births, and
the sanatory condition of the people by its rate of
mortality. And these were matters upon which it was
very necessary that we should be informed. Indeed
statistical information of every description was highly
desirable. He was surprised by recent information
procured at the instance of one of the Judges of our
Supreme Court, that 1500 sheep had been destroyed
at Brigus and its vincinity by dogs in five years. Did
not that fact show that it was necessary to remove the
cause of this destruction? The same principle applied
to this measure. Every one speaks of our healthy
climate, but the idea was only a speculative one, for
we had no statistical information as to the mortality.
In the United Kingdom, every thing was accurately
known, and the bills of mortality in London were
regularly published once a week. He (Mr. Kent)
thought that the proper persons to carry out the provisions of this measure were the
Stipendiary, Magistrates, and he trusted that us we progressed in material prosperity,
we might be able to allow them some
small compensation for their services in the matter.
He could fancy that they might be very profitably
employed in collecting all kinds of statistical information, and especially with reference
to agriculture. And
they certainly ought not to object to perform this
duty which would occupy but a small portion of their
time. Our position was in many instances an anomaly. In the other colonies they cannot
see any necessity for salaried magistrates over the whole country
as we had here. He was very glad to see that the
hon the Attorney General saw the propriety of omitting the two sections in this bill
already referred to.
He was certain when that hon gentleman evinced
such a desire to propitiate the good wishes of hon
members on this side of the house, that from them
he would receive no factious or violent opposition in
the public business.
Mr. WHITEWAY had great pleasure, in supporting
this bill. But he did not think that the outport magistrates should he saddled with
these new duties
without being in some way paid for their services. At
present their salaries were hardly sufficient to keep
them from starvation. It was very true that in some
parts of the island they had very littie to do; but in
other places to his (Mr. Whiteway's) own knowledge
they had a great, amount of duty to perform, and
their time was fully occupied. It should also be remembered that these gentlemen were
not unfrequently
the Deputy Surveyors, and were often called away
forty or fifty miles from their homes for the purpose
of surveying land for which service they received but
trifling remuneration. Last winter the Magistrate at
Fogo was occupied for nearly two months on business
apart from his office, occasioned by the number of
wrecked sealers that had to seek shelter there. We
could not find gentlemen in this country who could
afford to work without remuneration, a fact of which
we had sufficient evidence when we found three Contingency Bills thrown out in the
Legislative Council,
because hon gentlemen
representing out higher classes
refused to give two or three hours of their time, once
or twice a week, to the service of the country, without
remuneration. He was sorry to see this additional
duty imposed on the Magistrates without some little
fee to remunerate them for their service.
Mr. RENOUF hoped that the eloquent speech of the
hon member for Fogo would be reported. He (Mr.
Renouf) thought the object of the bill was a good
one. These Magistrates had very little to do, and
they might be very usefully employed in collecting the
information necessary to the successful carrying out
of this measure. He (Mr. Renouf) thought their
salaries were amply sufficient for the duties they had
to perform. That measura would not entail much
additional labor, and he considered that they were
certainly the proper persons to be entrusted with the
carrying out of the provisions of that bill.
Mr. E. D. SHEA regarded the principle of that
bill as unobjectionable. It would certainly have the
effect of procuring very useful information. We
should now know more of that interesting locality
Goat's Cove than we knew before. Hon members
would be able to ascertain the number of its inhabitants, and whether Mr King was
in reality monarch
of all he surveyed in that quarter. But joking apart,
he considered the measure a very useful one, and the
only difficulty in his mind was that it would not be
carried out efficiently, because there was no provision
for remunerating the parties who were to perform the
work. It seemed to be thought, however, that the Stipendiary Magistrates would be
only too glad to take upon
themselves this extra duty. They enjoyed so many
of the blessings of civilization in these outports, their
position there was such a happy one, that they would
feel that they were bound to make some return for all
the numerous advantages they reaped. It had been
said that they were in some districts rarely called
upon to adjudicate upon a case. He (Mr. Shea)
thought that fact spoke trumpet-tongued in their favour. Did it not show the great
moral influence
which their presence exercised? It was not right that
they should now be burdened with extra duties of an
onerous character, without one shilling compensation.
He did not see why they should be more patriotic and
disinterested than other officials. Then many of these
gentlemen had to perform the duties of Poor Commissioners, and if they were not paid
for that they should
be, for a more arduous and disagreeable duty he (Mr.
Shea) could not conceive. It was not fair for the
Government to impose these additional duties on these
gentlemen merely because they had the power to do
so. Looking at the provisions for carrying out the
present measure, he did not think that the Government could reasonably expect that
the duties would
be efficiently performed. But beyond the Magistrates,
the Government were to appoint Registrars. These
men, of course, would be paid; or was it contemplated that all were to do the work
from pure unsullied,
unmixed patriotism? He (Mr. Shea) very much feared
that this attempt at economy was not a very wise proceeding. He did not wish to predict
failure. He
merely expressed the fears which he really entertained.
He hoped that there would be some inducement held
out to these gentlemen, of some small remuneration
—otherwise we could not have much confidence in the
successful working of that measure.
Mr. TALBot.—No one would take an interest in
any business if he was not paid for it. If the Government employed Registrars they
would be compelled to
pay them. And what would be the necessary, result
with the Magistrates? They would become jealous
of the Registrars, and of course their work would be
inefficiently performed. The best plan would be to
pay all or none. He (Mr. Talbot) must confess that
his opinion was, considering the
modus operandi to be
pursued, that this measure would result in failure, in
fact become totally inoperative. The best way would
be not to pass it all, as we had no guarantee that it
would be carried into effect; and the Act would be
mere waste paper and an incumbrance to the statute
book. The Roman Catholic clergy would not consent
to discharge the duties that were to be imposed on
them. Besides, there were private reasons, which
could never be known that would prevent them. They
would not act as the officials of any government, paid
or unpaid. If the government passed the bill in its
present form it would be a penal act. The church
and state could never run together in parallel lines
in all things, and you could, not force them. There
were certain things connected with births and marriages, that they could not tell
you of. As citizens, they
would be bound, but as Ministers of religion, you
would not get anything out of them. Whenever their
principles came in contact with the state, they were
bound to resist. Therefore this bill would be altogether a nullity. If the government
made it incumbent
on mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, to give the
notices required by this bill, where was the necessity
for requiring the clergymen, to do so? With these
observations he supported the principle of the measure
though he did not see how it was possible for this act
to be carried into effect.
Mr. KENT.—But clergymen were not bound to
make returns.
The SPEAKER considered that it was of great importance that there should be a registration of
births and
marriages. The measure applied to all, and it was a
duty that they owed to their own people, as it was of
the utmost importance that such registers should be
correctly kept, as they might involve rights of property and the peace of families,
and serious loss and
damage might result from the want of that evidence
which, in the lapse of time, such registers only could
furnish. In this country no great loss had yet taken
place from the want of public registers although he
was aware there had been some. We were increasing,
and with an increase of population and accumulatios
of property, it was of the utmost importance that we
should have a correct registry of marriages and births.
A registry of deaths was also necessary. He had frequent applications from England
and Ireland as to the
deaths of persons, and the time of such deaths. With
regard to penalties, it there was any objection, he did
not see that it was necessary to press that. It became
a moral duty, and he took it for granted all clergymen would be ready and willing
to assist in securing
accurate registers. In Lower Canada there was a system of public registration, duplicate
registers being
kept by all clergymen, one of which was at the end
of each year deposited with the Clerk of the Court,
and the Roman Catholic clergy were the first named in
the Act.—(Here bon Speaker read the first section
of the Act of Lower Canada.) He thought it was the
duty of all clergymen to assist in carrying out such a
necessary measure. As to the penalties, he did not
suppose they would come to much, but he did not
think any clergymen would refuse to give the necessary returns.
Mr. KENT.—It was, no doubt of importance both as
regarded the rights of property and for necessary
statistical information, that there should be a correct
registry of births, marriages and deaths. But what
the petition of the Right Revd. Dr. Mullock objeced
to was that the Catholic clergy should, under penalties, be bound to make returns
to the government,
which he regarded as a species of penal legislation.
Mr PROWSE was surprised that there should be any
difficulty about furnishing information which was considered necessary in all civilised
and progressive countries. He did say that if in that bill there was anything
which touched the religious feeling of the Right Rev
Dr. Mullock, he (Mr Prowse) would not be a party to
its enactment, for however valuable the information
might be, religious feelings must be held sacred; and
he was satisfied the leader of the Government would
be the last to infringe them. But such registers were
very much required, and he (Mr Prowse) trusted there
would be a willingness to assist in having them accurately made up.
Mr TALBOT—It was customary in all Catholic countries to keep in the churches public registers
of marriages and births, and whenever courts of justice required extracts from them
as matter of evidence, access
to them was allowed. But there were no public registers of marriage here at all, because
marriages were
not performed in the churches. But there was a registry kept of baptisms and marriages,
and the Bishop
had no objection to allow it to be copied if the government required it.
Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL –It seemed to be considered objectionable that the bill should impose a duty
for which there was no compensation. He had no objection to dispense with the 5th
section of the Bill. But
he could not say the same respecting the 6th. It was
the section on which he relied for securing a correct
registry of marriages. It provided that in addition to
what clergymen were bound by law to do, they should
send a copy of their registry at the end of the year to
the Colonial Secretary's office. This object was to
procure in a condensed form what was now recorded
in all the churches and chapels in the island. He quite
agreed with the Speaker that it was not a matter
which any clergyman would object to, when the importance of the object was considered.
Mr KENT—But it was to be done under a penalty.
Hon ATTORNEY GENERAL –As to the penalty, if
that was the objection, there would not be much difficulty about it. These sections
might as well be passed
over for further consideration, and the other sections
of the bill proceeded with.
The seventh section was then read and adopted.
The remaining sections were read servatim and
adopted, and the committee rose and the chairman reported progress and asked leave
to sit again. To sit
again to-morrow.
On motion of the
hon Attorney General, pursuant
to order of the day, the house resolved itself into Committee of the whole on the
Coroners' Bill, Dr Winter
in the chair.
The hon Attorney General explained the object of
the bill, and the present state of the law, after which
its several sections were read and adopted, down to the
section authorizing the Goveonor in Council to fix the
fees under the measure, on which there was some discussion, when the committee rose
and the chairman
reported progress. To sit again to-morrow.
On motion of the
hon Attorney General, pursuant
to order of the day, the house resolved itself into committee of the whole on the
bill to provide for wives and
children deserted by their husbands and parents, and
for parents deserted by their children, Mr. Wyatt in the
chair.
The
hon Attorney General having explained the
object of the bill, several sections were read and adopted, with some amendments.
The committee then rose
and the chairman reported progress. To sit again to- morrow.
The house then adjourned until to-morrow at three
o'clock.
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