Mr. Job Mr. Chairman, I would like to make a
few remarks because I think we must all agree
that we are not making very good progress under
our present method of handling things. Yesterday
the progress was distinctly poor, and it seems to
me it will continue to be very poor unless some
better method of tackling the report is adopted.
There are too many interruptions, and too much
time is wasted on technicalities. I suggest that
better progress would be made if Mr. Smallwood
would make a simple, clear statement as to his
interpretation of the Ottawa proposals as em
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 803
bodied in the grey pamphlet entitled "Proposed
Arrangements for the Entry of Newfoundland
into Confederation",
[1] with reference to the Black
Books when absolutely necessary to clarify his
statement. When he has finished this statement, I
would recommend very strongly that Mr. Hollett
be asked, if he will, to reply, and after he had
finished, any members who wish to do so will be
permitted to state their views. There can be no
doubt that those who favour confederation, of
whom there are many thousands in this country,
as well as many others who are on the fence as
regards any form of government, are anxious to
get a clear understanding of the meaning of these
interesting documents, and it will be a long time
before they will understand the position if we are
to continue the disjointed style of debate which
took place in this chamber yesterday.... I cannot
help thinking that this will facilitate progress, and
I make the suggestion for what it is worth.
Mr. Chairman Thank you very much, Mr. Job.
Without in any way wishing to place any responsibilities upon Mr. Hollett, I might
say that otherwise I think your suggestion is very welcome and
very sound. The progress made last evening was
terrible to say the least, and I feel that Mr. Hollett
should address himself to me as to how he feels,
about assuming the responsibilities contained in
your suggestion....
Mr. Hollett I think I should speak right away
before I become involved in the thing. Let me say
that I would refuse to undertake such an arduous
task as to reply in one address to the multitudinous things that our friend from Bonavista
Centre is going to raise on this issue. Not only do
I fail to see how the debate last night was so
terrible, but I cannot agree with anybody who
would state that.
Mr. Hollett Oh you, sir! In that case I am sorry,
I cannot agree with you.
Mr. Hollett These things have been brought to
us from Canada, and unless we examine them
step by step we are not going to get this thing
across as Mr. Smallwood wants it. For me, or
even Mr. Smallwood, to get up and in one long-
winded speech to try and tell our people what we
think of these terms of confederation, I am afraid
we are not getting to the people; and that is
definitely, as Mr. Smallwood has intimated, his
whole and sole desire, to get the people acquainted with these terms. I have heard
long
speeches before, and unfortunately I have made
one or two myself and I know they are not the
right approach to any matter. Human beings can
only grasp one or two, or three or four points at a
time to absorb them properly. Therefore to attempt to analyse these two Black Books
and these
terms from Mackenzie King in one, or two, or
three long-winded speeches, I am afraid I don't
agree with the idea. If the progress has not been
satisfactory we should devise a better case, but I
would refuse to take on the burden of proof, if
you like, that Mr. Smallwood is wrong.
Mr. Chairman I quite understand that it is a
very difficult and arduous responsibility, but in
fairness to Mr. Job I think I should correct a
misapprehension. As I understand Mr. Job's
proposal he is not suggesting that you should
reply to Mr. Smallwood in one speech. What he
is saying is that the section would be read, that
Mr. Smallwood would give his interpretation of
it as briefly as possible, only referring to the
Black Books as it becomes necessary, and then at
the end you, if you so care, could reply. That
means you would have the right to reply to every
interpretation that Mr. Smallwood may place on
every section of the report.
Mr. Hollett As I understood it Mr. Job meant
that Mr. Smallwood would go through the whole
"shebang", and then I would give a reply, but you
say it should be section by section. That's a
different thing.
Mr. Job I did mean that Mr. Smallwood would
give a general impression of the whole thing first,
and then Mr. Hollett would reply in a general
way.
Mr. Job Well, no. I have no objection. I would
not say one clause. I would take more than one
clause. We wasted hours on two clauses that I
don't think there is anything in.
Mr. Job I still think the public would like to hear
what the whole thing means in a general way.
Then after Mr. Hollett replies in a general way,
you get down to the details, and anyone can come
in. I know it's got to be discussed in detail. There
are a tremendous number of points. When Mr.
804 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Smallwood is going through it people can take a
note of the points they are going to raise and
attack them.
Mr. Smallwood I appreciate Mr. Job's main
point, namely that the people are entitled to a
complete accounting of this document, entitled to
understand it; and I appreciate and know that for
months past that has been Mr. Job's viewpoint.
The difficulty, however, with his main suggestion, is two-fold. First it presupposes
that I am
able to take this Grey Book, in the light of the two
Black Books, and give a running description, all
in one piece, of what confederation would mean
to Newfoundland. If Mr. Job is agreeable that I
should carry out what it has been rumoured I was
going to do — speak for three weeks — I am quite
agreeable to do it if the Convention wishes ... and
if my voice will hold out that long. I am sure my
mind will, but I doubt if, at the end of the three
weeks, the public would know very much more
about confederation than they would at the beginning. Then I have the further doubt
that, having
done that, Mr. Hollett, or any other one man,
would be in a position to take that whole three
weeks' speech and in another three weeks dispose of it.
Mr. Chairman ....Mr. Job's suggestion, as I understand it sir, is that you should first make a
general statement, that would take you an hour,
or an hour and a half, giving only the highlights
if you will, and then proceed...
Mr. Smallwood I can't do it. I can only do it by
taking it clause by clause. The length of time that
will be used by any one clause is entirely a matter
for the Convention. It depends on how many
members wish to ask questions I will not occupy
very much time on a clause.
Mr. Chairman If you feel that it can only be
dealt with clause by clause, then I suggest to
members that Mr. Job's recommendation is still
a very sound one, in the sense that you take the
clause, read it if you will, give your interpretation
of it as briefly and as simply as possible
whereupon you will resume your seat and members can address you on any questions arising
out
of the clause under discussion. I still think that
Mr. Job's recommendation is calculated to help
things along.
Mr. Chairman Well, there was some confusion
about it last night.
Mr. Miller If I may be permitted to speak, I
disagree very much with Mr. Job's suggestion.
We have this report here, sir. Whether last night
was a good night for some and a bad night for
others it is a matter of indifference. There will be
good nights and bad nights for both parties in this
I guess, but we have it here and I base my disagreement on this: we represent Newfoundland
district by district. No one here represents Newfoundland as a whole, not even Mr.
Smallwood,
on this matter.
Mr. Miller It is on that basis that I think it would
be something that we would regret later if we
restricted the rights of individual members to
question. I think also that the first construction
put on any section of this or any clause of this
document going out over the air, if not corrected,
if there is a mistake in it, will make a lasting
impression; and I feel that if Mr. Smallwood's
statements go unchallenged the people will accept them as such, but if there is something
in his
statement which may be cleared up, I think right
there and then is the time to do it.
Mr. Hollett I maintain that that will destroy the
whole idea of committee of the whole. The committee of the whole is not for long-winded
speeches at all, even though we might have to
make them during the discussion; it is only by
question and answer and cross-fire that you can
get this across to our people. I think it would be
a mistake, as Mr. Miller points out. There are 44
members here, and we all have an equal right to
question Mr. Smallwood, and anybody else. With
all due respect to Mr. Job, and I thank him for the
compliment he has paid me, I would not accept
that under any conditions, and I think we
proceeded beautifully last night, and I think we
got somewhere.
Mr. Newell In the early part of this Convention,
when reports were brought in here, we took and
read them section by section, and had a discussion on each section as we went along....
It did
seem to me that we got the meat out of these
things. We only departed from that procedure in
the last two reports presented here, and these
were read
in toto at first, and then discussed by
sections that had no reference to each other, and
I leave it to you whether we got the meat out of
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 805
those or whether we beat the meat out of them. I
suggest the original procedure be followed
again....
Mr. Chairman I am not saying there is anything
wrong with the methods last night, but we did not
progress very far. We disposed of two clauses.
Mr. Hollett Mr. Chairman, excuse me, I must
take exception to that. There are only about four
or five who questioned Mr. Smallwood last night,
therefore we must proceed and ask questions
which will bring out to our people the answers
that we believe should be given. Mr. Smallwood,
with all due credit to him, answers as well as any
man could answer. Whether they have one cause
or not does not matter, they were the truth. If
anyone said in this house that last night was
wasted then they must blame myself, Mr. Miller,
Mr. Penney, and Mr. Higgins.
Mr. Smallwood If we might proceed. Clause 3.
[1]
"The public services provided from time to time
by Canada for the people of Canada generally,
will be extended to the people of Newfoundland." The public services provided by the
Government of Canada to the people of all nine
provinces are very extensive and very elaborate.
I would not be able to describe those public
services which the Government of Canada
provides under two or three hours, so I don't
intend even to try to do it. I will give you merely
a very bare and bald outline....
[Mr. Smallwood listed federal Services to
agriculture]
Mr. Hollett How does that compare with the
services given by our own government? Can Mr.
Smallwood answer that?....
Mr. Smallwood I think the Government of
Newfoundland provides precious little in the way
of agricultural services.
Mr. Hollett Do they provide anything in the line
of production and marketing service?
Mr. Smallwood None. Well, that's going a long
way — they do publish monthly some inadequate
returns of farm production and the price of farm
produce, but farmers in Newfoundland are all too
familiar with the very little service they get from
the government in that direction.
Mr. Smallwood In Canada they get this: at the
end of every week, the Department of Agriculture would tell you how many bushels of
wheat,
and all cereals, and root crops are in prospect.
That figure changes depending on the crop conditions, and they have a magnificent
statistical
service, so that every farmer in Canada knows
from week to week, and it is broadcast throughout
the nation, province by province, and section by
section in each province, what the weekly
production is likely to be from the beginning of
the season until the harvest is all over. Furthermore, every farmer is informed on
the radio what
are the prevailing wholesale prices for every type
of produce, for all the many markets of Canada...
Mr. Hollett Mr. Chairman, that is a very important factor in Canada, which is a farming country.
One third of the employed people in Canada are
on the land. We are a fishing country; have we
any research at all in that connection?
Mr. Hollett Never mind, we don't want to know
what the wheat prospects are in Saskatchewan,
for instance
Mr. Smallwood That is true, but the gentleman
asked me to explain what are the agricultural
services provided in Canada. That is what I am
doing...
Mr. Smallwood We have a demonstration farm
which I am sorry to say at the moment is helping
to break the market for the farmers by selling
turnips for $3 a barrel, when the current price that
the farmers are asking is $5-$6 a barrel.
Mr. Hollett I bought a barrel of turnips at the
door yesterday for $2.50. That man has nothing
to do with the experimental farm.
Mr. Smallwood That is perhaps because that
farm has broken the market...
Mr. Higgins Why did Mr. Smallwood bring up
whether they had broken the price or not? What
has it to do with his explanation?
Mr. Chairman He is drawing a comparison, at
Mr. Hollett's request, between the so-called or
alleged service to Newfoundland, and that which
might be made in Canada.
Mr. Hollett It is the importance of getting this
across to the people. Mr. Smallwood deliberately
gets up and says that the experimental farm has
broken the price, and they are selling turnips at
$3 a barrel. I answered that by telling our people
that a man who has no connection with the experimental farm whatever, who has a farm
over
806 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
at St. Phillips, is selling them for $2.50. The point
I want the people to know is that the experimental
farm did not break the price.
Mr. Smallwood The answer is that the reason
that man sold them for $2.50 is because the price
began at $5-$6 a barrel, and the farm sold under
that, and the price was broken....
Mr. Chairman We have not got a discussion at
the moment of the demonstration farm.
[Mr. Smallwood then listed services provided by
the departments of Fisheries, Labour, Mines and
Resources, National Defence, Health and Welfare, Public Works, Reconstruction and
Supply,
Trade and Commerce, Transport and Veterans'
Affairs]
Mr. Smallwood Now, sir, these in very bald and
brief outline are in part the public services
provided by the Government of Canada to the
people of Canada generally, which under section
3 the Government of Canada says will be extended to the people of Newfoundland. In
these
Black Books the members may find a tremendous
amount of detail describing each of these public
services...
Mr. Butt Would you agree that 95% of these
services are already paralleled in Newfoundland?
Mr. Butt Would you care to tell us, how did you
get that 20%?
Mr. Smallwood Well, I will not be bound down
to 20%, but it's about the last word in absurdity
to compare the public services of the little island
of Newfoundland with the Dominion of Canada,
with its 12 million people. The public services of
Canada are such as Newfoundland could not
even begin to dream that it could parallel.
Mr. Smallwood Under confederation, clause 3
says, "The public services provided from time to
time by Canada for the people of Canada generally will be extended to the people of
Newfoundland". Without confederation they will not
be, with confederation they will be.
Mr. Butt Those services are not paralleled?
Mr. Chairman Mr. Butt's question is, "What
services are not paralleled?"
Mr. Butt I would like to have Mr. Smallwood
point out those services which are not parallel in
Newfoundland.
Mr. Chairman What public services they have
in Canada that we have not here?
Mr. Butt That we have not got here. And to say
it is absurd to compare the services provided by
the Newfoundland government is not fair at all.
In comparison with those in Canada I think ours
are very good in relation to our size, our importance and the importance of the industries,
and
dealing with the size of the organisation of
Canada.
Mr. Smallwood Under the heading of Agriculture, first of all I will name the things that Canada
provides for her people and then see whether or
not Newfoundland provides it for her people.
That is what Mr. Butt wants me to do. Agricultural Science Service — no; Economic
Research
— no; Experimental Farm Service — half yes
and half no.
Mr. Hollett What is the scientific service that
Canada provides?
Mr. Smallwood I have got at least a small armful of evidence on that. If you want to go through
it I am quite willing, but we will be here till next
spring.
Mr. Hollett Don't you know what scientific services they provide?
Mr. Smallwood Of course I do. We were driven
to an experimental farm of 350 acres just at the
edge of Ottawa, the headquarters demonstration
farm. They have them scattered all over the
Dominion, experimental stations, health of
animal stations...
Mr. Smallwood Of course not. I have raised
something like 3,000 pigs, and you are going to
tell me I don't know. We have one veterinarian,
and he is not a field man, he is in administration.
Are we going to say that that provides scientific
knowledge as to the prevention of disease?
Mr. Butt There's some away training now. We
have only one for the reason that we could not get
them.
Mr. Smallwood I am not discussing the reasons,
I am discussing what Canada has got as compared
with ours.
Mr. Butt I dare say you will find the proportion
in Canada just the same.
Mr. Smallwood Maybe and maybe not. Let's
get on. Marketing service — we don't get that,
farm loans — we don't provide that.
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 807
Mr. Hollett Farm Loan Board. Have we nothing
in this country analogous to that?
Mr. Smallwood That's military re-establishment. That is a non-agrarian thing.
Mr. Hollett We are not yet a farming country. I
put it to you that the civil re-establishment is
perfectly analogous to the Farm Loan Board in
Canada.
Mr. Smallwood Not at all.... The Farm Loan
Board has been in existence for years, and we
have nothing analogous to that in Newfoundland.
Mr. Butt What is the Farm Loan Board, please?
Mr. Smallwood Page 84:
[1] "The Canadian Farm
Loan Board. This Board carries on loaning operations throughout Canada and has a branch
office
in each province. It makes long term loans to
farmers on the security of mortgages on farm
land." Now although there are only four lines on
that page, we submitted a question bearing on
that, and there is a reply to it. Just where to find
that I don't know, but if members have the leisure
they can find the Canadian government's answer.
I pass on.
Mr. Hollett Before you pass on, I want to make
that point clear, that this is a fishing country and
not a farming country. They have a Farm Loan
Board in Canada, but have we a fishery loan, or
anything like that for the fishery?
Mr. Smallwood If Mr. Hollett will permit me, I
will reply now to Mr. Butt.
Mr. Watton Regarding that question, page 19,
volume 2,
[2] gives the answer.
Mr. Smallwood Well, page 19, volume 2, if
anyone wishes to look it up. Now to continue.
Fisheries. Canada provides a coastal patrol service, fish hatcheries and a Fisheries
Research
Board, we do not. They supply scientific stations
for the fisheries, we do not, unless you count the
lab. in Maggoty Cove which deals with all kinds
of public health and biological research. We do
not.
Mr. Smallwood Well I must say Maggoty Cove,
it has been Maggoty Cove for 400 years, and it
will always be that. We may change New
foundland into a province, but it will always be
Newfoundland, and we will keep our Maggoty
Cove.
Labour. Assistance in settling labour disputes
— Yes. Facilitation of collective bargaining in
industries in which labour is organised — Yes.
Financial aid to the provinces for vocational
training. We have vocational training for
veterans, but for no one else.
Mr. Smallwood Yes, handicrafts a few weeks
ago, but no vocational training in civilian life.
The government has told us that when the
veterans' rehabilitation vocational training
scheme is completed they are going to turn the
building over for civilian vocational training, but
up to now we have not got it.
Employment offices — yes, we have that.
Unemployment insurance — no, we have not got
that. Newfoundland does not provide unemployment insurance. Provision of life annuities
— no.
Statistical service — no.
Now to come to Mines and Resources. Lands,
parks and forests. Now it is perfectly true that we
have a Forestry Division. That Division does not
provide any national parks.
Mines and Geology (topographical and geological surveys). We have it. It's an insult
to the
country, and it's an insult to the Commission of
Government that they have not pushed the
geological and topographical and hydrographical
surveys more than they have done. A country
that's crying out to be surveyed, the government
has only puttered around. The Government of
Canada would provide that.
Mr. Smallwood Maybe! I will read again section 3. "The public services provided from time
to time by Canada for the people of Canada
generally will be extended to the people of Newfoundland." There is no maybe about
it.... Surveys and Engineering (geodetic service,
hydrographic and map service, engineering and
construction services and Water Power Bureau).
Now as to the Water Power Bureau, for the first
time in the history of Newfoundland this very
summer, 1947, the Newfoundland government
brought in a hydrographic engineer. If you can
call one engineer a water-power bureau, Mr. Butt
808 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
is welcome to that description.
Indian Affairs Division — we have no such
thing in Newfoundland. (Laughter from Mr. Hollett) There happen to be 300 Indians
in Labrador,
and many more Eskimos, and I will remind him
that in Canada, for the purpose of administration,
Indians and Eskimos are all treated as Indians for
purely legal reasons. We have many hundreds of
them. Mr. Bay Boy may not feel like laughing
when I say that the Government of Newfoundland has no such division or department
for the
welfare of the Indians or Eskimos, of whom there
are many hundreds in Labrador.
Mr. Hollett I did not laugh. Now that you have
got that off your chest....
Mr. Smallwood I apologise, but I do not
apologise to the member who laughed, whoever
it may have been.
Mr. Bailey Is it true that we look upon our
Indians as not being citizens?
Mr. Smallwood Any Indian in Canada can
apply for citizenship. Many prefer not to because
they get more benefits by not being citizens. In
Newfoundland we never even allowed them to be
citizens. Until this National Convention we never
even gave them a vote. All we gave them was a
bit of dole. Let me pass on.
I will pass National Defence, because obviously we have not got an army, or a navy,
or an
airforce. National Health and Welfare. Treatment
of sick and injured mariners. We may treat them
as citizens, but we have no particular scheme for
treating sick and injured mariners in Newfoundland as in Canada. We will find out
more
about that as we go through these discussions.
Food and Drug Standards — we have that. Public
Health Engineering — I don't think we have
much of that.
Mr. Smallwood Oh no, it's more than a big
word. Public health engineering means this: a
government department that goes into a city or a
farm area, or a fishing area, and plans out the
actual engineering problems involved in controlling public health, and to prevent
all infectious
and contagious disease. It is a matter of placing
central water supply in places that need it, disposal of sewage, and general public
engineering
in matters of public health. We have no such
department in Newfoundland.
Mr. Butt That's the point I am trying to make
all the time. We have no such department, but it
can be done and it is done by the government in
various departments. According to the standards
we have reached in this country we have practically all the things you have mentioned,
but they
have not got those names, because you have got
the very extra big names to handle; but it's the
same service.
Mr. Smallwood I will watch that. I will tell you
the service and we will see if the Newfoundland
government does for the Newfoundland people
what the Canadian government does for the
Canadian people. I will not say whether they have
got a department, or a division, or a board, or a
committee; we will just take the function. It is the
Government of Canada that does it.
Public Health Engineering. Venereal Disease
Control — yes, we have a limited amount of that
in Newfoundland. Child and Maternal Hygiene
— yes, we have some of that. Industrial Health
— we have none of that. Nutrition Service — and
thereby hangs a tale.
Mr. Miller On that point of industrial health. Is
not that matter being taken care of by the companies concerned?
Mr. Miller The Buchans Mining Company
regularly inspect their mines and workers get
time off when the doctor suggests it from the
public health angle.
Mr. Smallwood I am glad Mr. Miller raised that
point. I, for one Newfoundlander, am not satisfied to leave the health of the workers
in bakeries,
mills, and mines and other industrial undertakings in the hands of the owners of these
plants.
Some owners take their responsibility seriously
and do fairly good work. But if it could safely be
left to the employers in Newfoundland to look
after the health of their employees, it could also
be left to the employers of Great Britain and the
United States, and you would not have any public
department in any country protecting the health
of the workers in them. We have not got any
public department of industrial health.
Mr. Fudge I can assure you that the health of
our workmen in the mill or outside, in Corner
Brook, is taken care of by that particular company far better than in Sydney. I have
seen some
of their dumps over there, and around Montreal
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 809
too, so I think we are very well fixed on that part.
Mr. Hollett Mr. Chairman, all that work done
by the various countries, isn't it done under the
agency of the Public Health and Welfare Act?
Mr. Smallwood It is not. Could someone tell me
how many inspectors of the Department of Public
Health and Welfare in the month of October,
visited the factories of St. John's, and saw how
many toilets, rest-rooms and safety devices were
provided?... I go further now. If Mr. Jackman
were here, I would ask him to tell me what
inspection has been made of the mines at Bell
Island under the Mines Regulation Act. I would
ask Mr. Hollett, who represents Grand Falls, including Buchans, to tell me what government
inspector has gone down in the mines under the
Mines Regulations Act to inspect the mines. We
have no such inspectors in Newfoundland. We
have a dead act. There is no enforcement of
industrial health. Except insofar as a few individual employers, such as the AND Company,
the
Buchans Mining Company, and Bowaters and a
few here in town, except for these the health and
the industrial conditions of employees, and the
health conditions of employees, are completely
ignored. Now let me go on. I must insist on
replying to Mr. Butt.
Mr. Smallwood I warned Mr. Butt that it would
take a little time. I said I would have to read all
through it again.
Mr. Chairman I must say that Mr. Butt has
provoked the situation when he asked for a comparison of the public services of two
nations.
Mr. Hollett May I say one word? When a question is asked Mr. Smallwood, and he apparently
gets into difficulty, is it the right technique for
him to reply by asking you another question?
Mr. Hollett That is what he has been doing for
the past five minutes.
Mr. Chairman No, he is comparing the public
services which obtain in Canada as against those
in Newfoundland. Frankly I do not know whether
all this reply is justified or not, because I know
nothing about the public services of this country.
Mr. Butt ...I can't give information about all the
various departments of government; but I worked
for the government for many years, and I know
that in relation to our development we have practically all the services that Mr.
Smallwood read
from this list this afternoon. That's the point, and
I don't want it to go over the air that Canada will
find this, that, and the other thing, and that we are
not doing it for ourselves. When he says we are
only doing about 20% of this I just don't believe
it, after 18 years working for the government. We
have public health inspectors and everything
else. I know we have a Public Health Act, and
from time to time they say "We are going to
enforce this", and they do so. We have meat
inspection and all sorts of things.
Mr. Smallwood Does Mr. Butt happen to be
aware that there is absolutely no control over the
inspection of slaughtered animals for the purpose
of preventing sales of diseased meat in this
country— one of the most scandalous, dangerous
things in any so-called civilised country. The
public would be shocked if they knew the manner
in which the Government of Newfoundland is
failing completely to protect public health in the
inspection of locally killed meat (pork and beef),
and I would face any butcher or livestock grower
in Newfoundland to prove my point. I know what
I am talking about. Now I won't delay the House.
I will give Mr. Butt his point, I will keep him a
bit ahead. If he wants to content himself to
believe that even proportionately the Government of Newfoundland provides public services
to the people of Newfoundland as Canada does
for her people, he is entirely welcome to believe
it. If he thinks for a moment that the people of
Newfoundland will believe it, then he is welcome
to his belief. I say now that if he has been in the
government civil service for 18 years, for almost
twice 18 years I have made a very close study of
public and governmental affairs in this country,
and I have travelled throughout the length and
breadth of this island, and I know what the public
services are in Newfoundland. I know what the
government does for the people, few know it
better, and anyone who is going to set out to
persuade me that the Government of Canada does
not provide far better and far more public services
for its people than our government does for ours
is tackling a job that is going to take him a long
time to accomplish.
Mr. Higgins I move that we go on to the next
paragraph.
810 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Welfare services presently provided by
Canada, and therefore applicable to Newfoundland after union pursuant to clause 3,
include the following:
(1) Family allowances, as provided by the
Family Allowances Act, 1944 and amendments;
(2) Old age pensions and pensions for the
blind, as provided by the Old Age Pensions
Act, 1927 and amendments, subject to agreement with the Government of the Province;
(3) Unemployment insurance, as provided
by the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940
and amendments;
(4) Sick mariners' benefits for merchant
seamen and fishermen, as provided under the
Canada Shipping Act, 1934 and amendments;
(5) Assistance for housing, as provided
under the National Housing Act, 1944 and
amendments.
Family allowances are the name given to payments of money made each month to the children
of Canada. There are in Canada, under the age of
16, 3.5 million children. Every child in Canada
under the age of 16 is entitled to receive, every
month, a cheque for $5 up to the age of six years.
Over the age of six and under ten it is $6 a month
for every child. Over ten and under 13 it is $7 a
month for every child. Where there are five
children or more in family, the amount is reduced
on the fifth child by $1. If there are six children
$2 is taken off the sixth child...
Mr. Miller I have an idea that Mr. Smallwood
is reading from a book which is not official, it is
probably nothing better than a magazine. We are
not going to accept information from a magazine.
Mr. Smallwood Turn to volume 1, page 92,
section 47....
[2] This which I was reading is a table
showing the family allowances in Canada and
showing how they are reduced after the fourth
child. This is an official document compiled by
National Health and Welfare in Canada and
shows family allowances. What are family allowances? Family allowances are regular
cash
grants made to families towards the maintenance,
care, training, education and advancement of
children....
Mr. Higgins Cannot we have a more brief explanation than we are getting?
Mr. Smallwood This is not brief enough. It is
going to take more than a quarter of an hour to
explain this. Mr. Higgins is not going to run this
Convention.
Mr. Higgins Mr. Chairman, I have been accused
of trying to run this Convention. I asked Mr.
Smallwood to be brief. He has been 25 minutes
explaining one part of a clause. He has gone
through two books and is now attempting to go
through another.
Mr. Smallwood Mr. Miller objected to my
quoting from a pamphlet which, he said, was not
official. I am now quoting from the official
pamphlet....
Mr. Smallwood They are part of the holiday Mr.
Higgins had in Ottawa.
[Demonstrations from gallery]
Mr. Chairman I want no demonstrations from
the gallery. Mr. Higgins went to Ottawa as part
of your delegation.
Mr. Chairman You are not to say it. I ask you
to withdraw it.
Mr. Smallwood I will withdraw it — it went
into history anyway.
Mr. Smallwood You do not want confederation
debated after three month's holiday. You are
going to hear the explanation of this document or
move the closure motion.
Mr.Higgins The delegation should not have
gone to Ottawa in the first place.
Mr. Chairman Whether the delegation should
have gone or not is entirely beside the point. The
delegation was sent to Ottawa, certain information has been received and the Convention
quite
frankly decided that information should be discussed in the briefest possible time.
I do not want
to embarrass you, Mr. Smallwood, but would you
endeavour to be as brief as possible.
Mr. Smallwood As brief as possible in justice
to the people of Newfoundland. It is the people
of Newfoundland we have to think of — not what
Mr. Higgins wants. Mr. Higgins is not going to
tell me how long or how short I will be in explain
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 811ing these documents.
Mr. Smallwood I am I. I am piloting this report
and I am going to do it. You would like to throw
the whole thing out. I can tell the whole story. If
the Convention wants to hear the whole story. I
can tell it.
Mr. Burry I represent the district of Labrador.
Mr. Higgins represents a district in Newfoundland. Maybe mine is not as important
a
district but it is my contention that my district has
a right to know the contents of these documents.
Mr. Higgins has expressed himself to Mr.
Smallwood on his explaining this thing more
briefly. I would like to say that Mr. Smallwood
should have considerable time — not taking too
long. This is a very important thing to my district
and I think Mr. Smallwood should have some
time, even if it should take the whole afternoon.
Mr. Smallwood I want to make another point.
There is a lot of talk here about the deplorable
condition of Canada; that she is bankrupt; down
and out; poverty-stricken. Last year the Government of Canada ended up with a surplus
of $360
million. This year for the first five months she has
had a surplus of $500 million. Why was it necessary for her to borrow $200-300 million?
Because she was poor? No! Canada today is
extremely prosperous and because she is
prosperous she has to borrow some American
dollars. She is buying American goods at the rate
of $2 billion a year.... She has not got enough
dollars, why? Because she is shipping goods to
Europe; she is shipping goods to Britain; keeping
Britain alive.... Canada is shipping to all over
Europe and Asia and she is not getting paid in
American dollars. She is running short of
American dollars.... Last year the Canadian
government had a surplus of $360 million. Now
we come to the guts of it. That is a good parliamentary expression.
Mr. Smallwood It has been used in parliaments.
I do not want to be mealy-mouthed. If, down in
Adam's Cove in the District of Bay de Verde,
there are 62 children under 16 years, and if $372
a month is put into Adam's Cove amongst those
62 children, the question is, will the parents of
these 62 children in Adam's Cove have to pay
any taxes? Will their parents have to pay $372 a
month taxes?
Mr. Smallwood They will? Let us take a look at
it! If that is so, family allowances are no good....
If there are 270 children in Bay de Verde proper
under 16 years, that is $1,620 a month. Will the
parents have to give the government $1,620 so
that the children can get $1,620? If so, family
allowances are no good.... If the parents have to
pay it themselves so that the children can have it,
then family allowances would be no good; they
would be only paying it to themselves. We could
have family allowances and no confederation....
All very fine to say family allowances cost $250
million a year. You can take that $250 million and
divide it by 12.5 million population; but that is
not the way. I will put it another way. There are
nine provinces in Canada. Every one has its own
government, but one government on top of all,
the federal government at Ottawa. Does the
federal government say, "In the coming fiscal
year in our budget we are going to spend $1.75
billion — now there are nine provinces, divide
that into $1.75 billion. That is so much"? That
would be stupid. They are not stupid. They do not
collect their revenue in equal amounts from every
province.... The Province of Ontario pays to the
federal government nearly half of all the revenue.
Throw Quebec in with it, throw in British Columbia, those are the three rich provinces.
Quebec
has an area vastly bigger than Ontario in size; has
vast water-powers; vast timber resources and
great mills, mines and factories, and steel mills
— a vast industrial province. In British Columbia
there is a vast agricultural province — paradise,
the Garden of Eden of this world. No country on
the face of the earth can compare with British
Columbia.
Mr. Smallwood I have never been there. I have
only read about it, read descriptions of it as I have
of very many parts of the world. Between the
three of them, do you know how much they give
the Government of Canada? 89 cents out of every
dollar the Government of Canada collects! Write
that down, Mr. Hollett; and you, too, Mr. Butt.
That is the whole point of my argument 89% of
812 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
the revenue of the Government of Canada comes
from the great industries of these provinces...
Mr. Miller If you have three provinces contributing as largely as 89%, we must then suppose
the other provinces are very poor provinces; they
have not really progressed?
Mr. Smallwood Not progressed as much as
British Columbia. They have not got the natural
resources; they are not as prosperous as those
three provinces, that is right.
Mr. Miller One other point, with regard to your
references to Canada's surpluses...
Mr. Smallwood I will not be drawn on that at
the moment. I will come back to it. We will finish
this other point, this 89%. If my memory is right
the population of Quebec, Ontario and British
Columbia put together comes to 69% of the
population of all Canada. Mr. Hollett said it was
75%. Let us call it 75%; 75% of the population
should pay 75% of the taxes; but they pay 89%.
What does that mean? That means that the other
six provinces, the Maritimes and the three
prairie provinces between them pay 11% only of
the revenue of the Government of Canada: 11%
from six and 89% from three. Why is that? Because of the kind of taxation that the
Government
of Canada collects. Most of it is corporation tax
on big companies and corporations, and income
tax. That is where she gets the bulk of her revenue
— by taxing the people who have the money to
pay. Now what would it mean if we were to
become a province? There would be three rich
provinces and seven not so rich. Suppose a large
firm were to start nine branches.... A year passes
on and they get the balance sheet of each branch.
They find the only branches that made money
were the ones at Grand Falls, Buchans and
Corner Brook. The other six are losing money.
They might let them run on for another year....
Those six branches have lost money, but the three
branches made money. What do they do, if they
are businessmen? They close down the six
branches.
Mr. Hollett That is what would happen to this
province. It would be shutdown.
Mr. Smallwood I am coming to that. They close
down the six branches which are not paying,
why? Because they are a business concern. They
are not in business for fun ... they are interested
in the balance sheets. Canada has nine provinces.
Do they close down the provinces that do not
pay? The Province of Nova Scotia gets more
from the federal government than it pays that
government.... Six provinces take more money
from the government than they give for taxation....
Mr. Hollett I would remind you that 3,000
workers had to migrate from the Maritime
Provinces to Ontario and Quebec. Is not that
closing it down?
Mr. Smallwood Would to God the men in Fortune Bay could go to other places and find work,
or the men in St. Brendan's who are down and
out because they cannot sell their squid, if they
could go to another part of Newfoundland and
find work! If the men in Nova Scotia could not
find work there, was it not a grand thing that they
could move a little farther on and find work?
What is wrong with that?.... I hope you, sir, and
the members, will not be too hard on me, that you
will not condemn me too harshly; I am enthusiastic about this confederation. I may
be wrong. My
mind may be muddled. I may be just a poor
visionary who imagines all these things. I am
sincere. If I get carried away, if I roar and bawl,
excuse me if I bawl too much. My feelings do
sometimes overcome me, and I apologise to the
House. I had my mind made up not to allow
anyone to get me worked up this evening; I was
going to act quietly and dignified but I forgot.
Mr. Hollett Mr. Smallwood made reference to
St. Brendan's: "would to God the men of St.
Brendan's could go to some other place in this
country and find work". A few days ago Mr.
Smallwood made reference to a letter and quoted
it here, from a lady whom he knows.
Mr. Hollett Oh, you do not know her? The letter
was something about squid and the privation of
the people there. He has again brought up St.
Brendan's. I come from the Grand Falls district.
Buchans is in my district. I know a good many
men in Buchans from St. Brendan's who are
working in the mines there, and as a result of the
statement made by Mr. Smallwood the other day,
I hold in my hand a telegram from five men of St.
Brendan's working in the mines at Buchans deeply resenting the insinuations made by
Mr.
Smallwood against the town of St. Brendan's,
and they ask me to acquaint this House of their
resentment. I am not going to read this telegram,
sir, because you ruled no telegram or letter shall
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 813
be read, and I challenge Mr. Smallwood to read
it to the House.
Mr. Hollett You are not allowed. This telegram
is signed by five hard-working fishermen of St.
Brendan's who are now working in the mines
there and earning their living. I say we have
places to which men can go if they are not too
lazy to do so.
Mr. Smallwood Shame! Scandalous, shameful
statement. We have thousands of men in Newfoundland who would give half their arm
for a
job.
Mr. Hollett Is that a point of order? Sit down! I
do not want you to bring up St. Brendan's again.
I am representing men from St. Brendan's in
Buchans who are disgusted with the statement
you made the other day. You read that telegram
and you will not sleep this night. That is all I want
to say, except one other point. He says in this
baby bonus they do not tax the poor; they take it
out of the rich. I would like to ask Mr.
Smallwood, who make the rich rich? Is it not the
miners down in the mines in Buchans? Is it not
the fisherman on the Labrador? Is it not the men
who fell the trees? Are not these the men who
make rich men rich? If you increase taxation to a
certain point, beyond saturation point, you are
making the poor man a darn sight poorer. That is
what you are trying to ram down into our throats,
that false doctrine, Mr. Smallwood. I move the
adjournment.
Mr. Smallwood I move the adjournment, but
first I would say in reply to Mr. Hollett that the
rich are made by the poor, and family allowances
are the method of getting some of it back from
the pockets of the rich into the pockets of the poor
again.
Mr. Higgins Before we adjourn and whilst on
the matter which Mr. Hollett brought up, we had
a frenzied oration from Mr. Smallwood about St.
Brendan's the other day. I believe actually while
Mr. Smallwood was reading that letter, a
gentleman was coming to town from St.
Brendan's having made a purchase of squid down
there; he paid on account of the squid he purchased $4,500; he had not paid the full
amount. I
do not know if Mr. Smallwood was deliberately
misleading, or whether Mrs. White was pulling
his leg. Someone was in error. When you refused
to allow him to read the letter, he then gave it as
his own knowledge.
Mr. Chairman I distinctly recall ruling that we
were not concerned with expressions of opinion
outside the House, but if Mr. Smallwood or any
other member was talking about some part of the
country from his own actual knowledge of that
part, it was perfectly competent for him to do it.
Mr. Higgins Then he gave it as his own
knowledge. I remembered and I wrote it down.
Mr. Higgins I am not an official stenographer,
but if you want to repeat more lies in this House
you better get another stenographer to take down
what you say yourself.
Mr. Smallwood Speaking on the motion to rise
the committee and in reply to Mr. Higgins' innuendo, which I am surprised you did
not stop
him from saying, that I was deceiving the House,
the letter I got was from Mrs. White, a lady whom
I do not know. I just passed the information on
from the letter to the House. I am happy to know
they have sold their squid. I did not know until
this moment.
Mr. Smallwood I did not know it. The squid was
there; they could not sell it; could not get any food
for it. If conditions have improved since, no one
is happier than I am. It happens to be in my
district. The people of St. Brendan's have been
extremely kind to me.
Mr. Chairman I have had to rise this committee
before. I will go further next time. I am not going
to tolerate these exchanges. The motion to rise
the committee has been before me for the last ten
minutes and on account of those verbal exchanges I have not been able to do anything.
I am not
interested at all in the endeavour of any member
to have a parting shot when it is calculated to
interfere with the discharge of my duties. If it
occurs again the committee will rise and I will not
wait for a motion.
[The committee rose and reported progress, and
the other items on the order paper were deferred]
Mr. Fogwill I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask His Excellency the Governor in Commission
the following questions:
1. What pension (superannuation) rights
have the employees of the Newfoundland
Railway acquired under Newfoundland law?
2. In the event of the Newfoundland
814 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Railway's being taken over and operated by
the Canadian National Railway system, who
will be liable for the payments of pensions
paid to employees of the Newfoundland
Railway presently retired and receiving pensions?
[The Convention adjourned]
