1871
[COMMONS] 1872
THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES.
Mr. DAVIN. Mr. Speaker, the motion
which I have on the paper is one that 1 hope
the House will rcgard at this time as specially appropriate :
That it is necessary to (1) the prosperity and
progress of the North-west Territories, important
to the stability and progress of the Dominion,
and of great moment to the Empire that the
North-west Territories shall be treated on a different footing from that heretofore
; (2) That
the self-respect of the people of the North-west,
not less than the material interests of those vast territories demands that the Territories
shall not
be treated on a plane of inferiority ; (3) That the
climate, soil and conditions generally of the
North-west are different from those of other parts
of Canada, and a policy specially adapted to its
needs and resources is called for in order that
the settlers shall be rendered prosperous and
immigration policies be made effective.
Mr. MILLS (Bothwell). That is a vote of
want of confidence in the Minister of the
Interior (Mr. Daly).
Mr. DAVIN. My friend the member for
Bothwell says this is a vote of want of confidence in the Minister of the Interior.
I
beg to say that it is nothing of the kind.
Mr. MILLS (Bothwell). The vote has not
come yet.
Mr. DAVIN. Mr. Speaker, in the earlier
clauses of this motion I refer to our treatment: of the North-west Territories ever
since we had anything to do with them. I
consider that we shall have to take the
North-west Territories more seriously than
we have done. We have seen in the papers
—and it has even been brought before the
attention of the Empire—evidence of the
readiness of the authorities at Washington,
on occasion, to put on, or pretend to put
on, their war paint. A short time ago we had
a reference made to the attitude of the people of the United States and to the position
of England, and that reference has attracted widespread attention. When the people
of the United States talk about difficulties
with England, they are not thinking of petty
disputes connected with bickering republics
in South America. They are thinking of Canada, and when they think of Canada, they
are
thinking of the North-west Territories and
of Manitoba. We have had, as I have stated
in this House before, visits to the Northwest from prominent American statesmen;
and the impression these vast territories,
with millions of arable acres, has made upon them, has been such as to wake them from
the indifference with which they have regarded Canada generally, especially the North-west.
A Mr. Thompson has published an essay in one of the American magazines in which he
gives an account of a visit he made to the Territories in 1895. He stopped at Regina,
stopped at Calgary, went up to Edmonton, and made, if I may say so, a lit- early survey
of the country ; and what did he do when he went back ? He quoted official utterances
on the part of the United States officials as to the unimportance of the North-west
Territories and Manitoba, and told his countrymen through this magazine, that they
were entirely mistaken-that Canada had more than half of North America, and had to-day
fertile regions stretching over the North-west Territories equal to seven or eight
or nine of the greatest and most fertile states of the Union. Mr. Speaker, int eh
" Evening Journal." published in this city, there appeared on the 15th instant a leading
article, the writer of which copied a long letter from an American doctor. I think
in Philadelphia, which appeared in the London " Time." This gentleman argues that
it is for the good of humanity generally, especially for the food of this continent
and its peace, that the United States should wake up from their indifference and take
Canada in hand. Now, the same writer, Mr. Thompson, points out that the waste lands
of the United States have all been taken up. They are no longer these vast extents
of fertile territory which that country formerly had ; there are no longer fields
for their restless spirits to go to, and they are becoming anxious ; and there cannot
be the least doubt that it would be a solution of one of the most difficult problems
that concern the United States at present, if, by any possible arrangement, they could
get hold of the vast territory which we posses. The reason why I give so wife a bearing
to this question is my belief that the future of the Dominion, and perhaps the strength
of the whole Empire, is involved in our treatment of the North-west Territories. I
say that the prosperity and progress of the North-west Territories demand that they
be treated differently. They have been treated too much on this line- that all you
had to do was to open up the country, send railways in there, dot it with post offices,
five it telegraph and postal commun cation, and give it a large share of provincial
government, and that would be sufficient in the past, and I am certain that it is
not at present. There is one feature of our dealing with the North-west Territories
which we shall have, in my opinion, to revolutionize. I mean the feature of immigration
into these territories. The hon. member for Bothwell
(Mr. Mills) has said that this is a vote of
1873 [FEBRUARY 17, 1896] 1874
want of confidence in my hon. friend the
Minister of the Interior (Mr. Daly). When
that hon. gentleman took charge of the Interior Department, he told us that he was
going to give us a vigorous immigration
policy ; and some people, both in the newspapers and out of them, have charged that
the hon. gentleman's policy was not as
vigorous as he promised and as we desired.
But, Mr. Speaker, I am bound to say that
the Parliament of Canada did not give my
hon. friend the means of prosecuting such a
vigorous immigration policy as we expected.
Mr. DAVIN. Yes, but he has a majority
in Parliament.
Mr. DAVIS. My hon. friend from Ottawa
County says that he has a majority in Parliament, but if he will look back to the
debates in this House he will find—I do not
know whether he was guilty in that particular or not—that hon. members on the
opposite side have always denounced the
amount of money that was expended on immigration.
Mr. DAVIN. That is a point into which
I cannot go just now : but I have heard
criticisms in this House on immigration expenditure that did not bear on the question
of waste at all, but were confined to the
preposition that the amount put down in the
Estimates was altogether too large a sum
for such a purpose. What we want therefore—and I should like to know if my hon.
friend from Ottawa. County (Mr. Devlin) will
support me in this—is to have a far larger
sum spent on immigration. My hon. friend
the leader of the Opposition has frequently
denounced the millions which he said had
been spent within the last fifteen years.
Mr. MULOCK. But the more millions
you spend, the less immigrants you get.
Mr. DAVIN. No, immigration is a business like any other. If you put capital into
it and manage that capital properly, you
will have results.
Mr. DAVIN. I shall not go into that just
now. because that would belong to more properly to a motion dealing with the administration
of the vote for immigration, and
that is not my purpose here.
Mr. DAVIN My hon. frlend from Wellington (Mr. McMullen), who has been very
quite this session, remarks that it is not my
purpose to do so anywhere else. I hope that
we shall hear from the hon. gentleman in
this debate. He. has been very quite. I
rather think that his financial critical
sphere has been narrowed by his leaders
this session lest he might prove too injurious
to them. Suppose we go on in the Northwest as we have been going on. Suppose
we only increase there in the ratio we have
increased ; the result will be that ten or
twenty years will pass, and yet the Northwest will not have its farms of 160 acres
each, each containing a family, and what
would be the result? It would be that the
North-west Territories will not be the,
strength to Canada that they might be
otherwise, nor the strength to the Empire
which they should be. I lay stress on this.
I say that if you are to fill up these Territories with an English. a Scandinavian,
a
Scotch and an Irish population. let us have
them filled rapidly, and any vaporings about
annexation may he laughed to scorn. In
fact, I believe that any such vaporings may
he laughed to scorn to—day. But, sir, there
is a great opportunity before our Parliament
and Government at present with regard to
out North—west Territories. That opportunity is this. The English people are
thoroughly awake just new to the importance
of the colonies. The opinion which obtained
some twenty-five years ago, that the colonies
were of little importance, is now at a discount, the English people are thoroughly
awake to, the importance of their colonies,
and the notion of an Imperial Zollverein
has undoubtedly made considerable progress. I believe that in the mood in which
England is at present, you ought to be able
to get the statesmen of England to join
with the statesmen of Canada in a great
immigration scheme. If you do this. if you
turn the tide of immigration to the Northwest Territories, if you do not Confine yourself,
to the stray efforts made by charitable
associations and the scanty efforts that can
be made on the small sums hitherto voted
by Parliament. we would get a considerably
larger immigration from England than we
have had in the past. Then, Sir, if a larger
scheme be entered into, we ought tohe able
larger immigiation from Scandinavia than we have had and a far larger
immigiation from Germany , and under
those circumstances. I think that the first
part of my resolution should commend itself to the House, namely, that it is of great
importance to the stability and progress of
the Dominion, and of great moment to the
Empire. that the North-west Territories be
treated on a different footing from
that which has obtained heretofore. In
1891, or perhaps in 1890. I brought before
this House a scheme for irrigation. Since
my hon. friend (Mr. Daly) has
passed an admirable Bill—he was notthen
Minister ofthe Interior—dealing with irrigation, and the settlers of Alberta have
made
use of it. When I brought forward that
scheme, I remember the then Minister of
the Interior complained that I was casting
doubt upon theNorth—west Territories as a
fertile country. I need hardly say there
was not much likelihood of my casting any
doubt upon the North-west Territories as a
1875
[COMMONS] 1876
fertile country. But what I said, and what
has since been proved in Alberta, and what
has been proved up to the handle in the
United States was that you can get no better result from any land in the world or
by
any system of cultivation than you get from
that soil than by means of irrigation. Irrigation makes you independent of the variations
of the seasons. In other parts of the
North-west, in all parts of Assiniboia, where- ever we have had a partial failure
of the
crops, it has been due to drought. There
is no part of the Territories where an
abounding crop cannot be secured, year
after year, if you have sufficient moisture.
In India, among other systems, they have
in the dry parts, far from rivers, a system
of irrigation by means of wells. These
wells are found to produce an enormous
amount of fertility. In some parts of the,
United States, also, a system of irrigation
by means of wells, has been introduced.
Windmills are employed to pump up the
water all the time, the water being distributed in troughs, and thence, through
smaller troughs, to all parts of the land.
The proposition I made in 1891 was this—
that the Government of Canada, which had
great advantages because it had complete
power, should take into its own hands the
providing of means of irrigation where it
was known that the land was fertile, but
where it was also known that the rainfall
was not sufficient. There are parts of Assiniboia where we have farms, the occu pants
of which have to go great distances
for water. Now, I hold that money appropriated for irrigation purposes could not
be better spent than by providing water
for these farmers. not exactly at their doors.
but contiguous to their farms. If this were
done, on every farm you would have a man
sending letters abroad telling of abundant
crops year after year, and of a condition
of things enabling him to despise the mutations of the seasons. There is another point.
one that, probably, would not commend itself to free traders or revenue tariffists,
but
that would commend itself to those of us
who believe in protection, and who are not
afraid of the sneers against " paternalism."
I believe that there are parts of the Northwest Territories where we ought to aid
the farmers, through helping little bodies of farmers in establishign creameries where
they are not able to do so themselves. Some assistance should be given, but not exactly
in the form I suggested before. Some assistance was given some years ago in one part
of my own district, and the result has been most gratifying; it has been such as to
justify the Government in the course they took at that time. The second clause of
the resolutions is this:
(2) That the self-respect oi the people of the
North-west, not less than the material interests
of those vast territories demands that the Territories shall not be treated on a plane
of inferiority.
I think it was in 1880 that I proposed that
we should have full responsible government
for the Territories; and what was done
then was to pass a Bill—my late illustrious
leader, the Right Honourable Sir John A.
Macdonald was leading the Government,
and it was his Bill—which gave us a small
advisory board. And now we have a financial committee. which has not the right to
advise the governor on any subject but
finance. The powers of the North-west Territories are, I think, with the exception
of
one or two items, coextensive with those of
a province. But, for what reason, I never
could make out, we hesitate to give full responsible government to the Territories.
The result of giving full responsible government would be to set that giant, the
North-west Territories, upon its mettle. It
is just as important, for instance, as British
Columbia—much more important from one
point of view—
Mr. DAVIN. From one point of view.
My hon. friend may be quite certain that I
would not disparage the importance of any
part of Canada to Canada at large. I know
full well the importance of that magnificent province of the Pacific. But what I
say is that there is no part of Canada so
important at this hour to Canada as the
North-west Territories, with their boundless
fertile acres awaiting the plough of the
immigrant. If provincial government be
good for the provinces, why should it not
be good for the North-west Territories ?
We have a population—again to refer to the
Pacific province—as large as that of British
Columbia. That is shown by the last census. And we have more fertile land than
any province or any two provinces in Canada. We have vast resources, mineral and
agricultural, as well as resources of the
forest, and the fishery. The same principle
that leads us, as federalists, to give power
to the province to deal with its own affairs,
should lead us to give similar powers to the
North-west Territories. Local self-government is based upon the principle that if
you
have Ministers on the spot who are closely interested in the local affairs, and have
much better opportunities to manage those affairs wisely than persons at a distance,
things will in a large sphere of civil government be better done. There is also the
principle of the division of labour. We
divide the work of the government in
this country. We find that the provinces can do the purely provincial work
better than it could be done here in
Ottawa, and, of course, we are able
to do the work that is allotted to us better
than if it were scattered over five or six de
partments. in five or six different parts of
Canada. What we want, therefore, in my
opinion, and in the opinion of the most
thoughtful people in the North-west Territories, is that the last link be given; we
1877 [FEBRUARY 17, 1896] 1878
want to have the additional power that is
necessary to cover the whole field of provincial functions, and we want to have the
Ministers, as we virtually have at present. We
have my friend Mr. Haultain, who is called
the Premier ; he is chairman of the executive. He has got another colleague, paid
as
much as a Minister, and he is a member of
the executive. These, with two other gentlemen, are a committee of the House chosen
by
the House, to advise His Honour on financial
questions. The result is, that instead of having a little executive responsible to
the assembly, and responsible to the people of the
North-west, you have a committee appointed
to spend the money that we give them a
committee appointed by the assembly really
to spend that money, as it is directed by the
assembly. And what is the consequence of
that? The consequence is, that the system
of log-rolling still prevails. Now, Mr. Speaker, my friend Mr. Haultain, who is chairman
of the executive, promised that he would
get out of that : he promised that he
would certainly give that up, and a step
has been taken in the way of focussing the
responsibility. But I cannot think that you
can have the expenditure of money, say, for
public works, placed in a satisfactory position, unless you have men as a body responsible
to the assembly, and who shall
hold that responsible position in face of the
electors of the country. Under these circumstances, the result will be that you will
have
what seems to be necessary to our system
of government, you will have the politicians,
the people who take an interest in the affairs
of that country, divided into parties. Nobody is more sensible than I am of the evils
that can gather around party government
But all things are capable of degenerating
into abuses. We cannot find anything in our
human affairs that cannot be abused, and I
cannot see how it is possible to work our
constitution without having paities. In fact,
we see from the management of affairs up
there, that, probably, there would be an
economy there would be a real economy, if
there were an opposition, if there were
parties in the House, a regular ministry,
and an opposition to criticise the conduct of that ministry, and criticise its expenditure.
I may say, in passing, that I do
not see why we should not, in the theory of
our constitution, acknowledge patties. It
may be a useful thing to recognize what the
writers call fiction. But, Sir, no fiction that
has become an absolute fiction can be
useful ; in the nature of things it must cease
to be useful. On the other hand, any real
fact. anything that is a controlling fact, as
' party is, in the government of a country, it
seems to me to be a great affectation on our
part to refuse to acknowledge. Here we are,
framing a constitution, and all the time ignoring one of the great wheels by which
the
country is governed. The third clause of
this resolution is : Â
That the climate, soil and conditions generally
of the North-west are different from those of
othe1 parts of Canada, and a policy specially
adapted to its needs and resources is called for
in order that the settlers shall be rendered prosperous and immigration policies be
made effective.
Now, I forget who it was. when this motion
was read—I believe it was my hon. friend
from Queen's. P.E.I., (Mr. Davies)—who
seemed to think the last part, especially, was
a reflection on the immigration policy of my
hon. friend the Minister of the Interior.
What I meant was this : That, if you want
to make your immigration policy effective,
you must have the farmer in the North-west
shaking hands, so to speak, and co-operating
with your agent in England. If you do that,
then, in my opinion, you will make that
circle which will be one of the most effective
and potent powers to secure your object.
Not that I condemn in any way the immigration policy of this department, for I say
that,
so far as I have been able to judge, my hon.
friend the Minister of the Interior, with the
means at his disposal, has done as well in
securing immigration as any Minister could
possibly do. But, when I speak of making
it more effective, I mean that whatever
efforts are put for and by the immigration
function of his department, should be seconded by a contented and prosperous yeomanry
in our North-west Territories. Now,
Sir, to effect all this you will have in my
opinion, to make a new departure. In fact,
peculiarities of the conditions in the
North-west Territories are such that you
may gain immense results, almost immeasurable results. if you only adopt
wise, paternal policy. Such are the
peculiarities of that country, and so different
is it from most European countries, that it
is not a country into whichyou may invite
people accustomed to other conditions, and
then leave them there without any further
attention. Some of them will succeed when
brought in in that way ; but what I say is,
that the true policy wouldbe to exercise an
interest in the settlers that go, into the Territories, to devise schemes for the
amelioration of their condition, and, above all, to see
that the conditions are supplied that will fit
the land they settle on, that will fit it year
after year for producing, to a certainty, a
good crop. Now, Mr. Speaker, a great bugbear against the North-west Territories used
to be the frost. Well, I lay this down, that
the frost is a comparative trifle in the Northwest Territories. Give moisture, have
moisture any year you like, have moisture in any
part of the country you like, and, no matter
how severe the frost, you will have results
that will enable the farmer to prosper, that
will enable the farmer to make money, that
will enable the farmer to have his bacon,
and his pork, and his flour, and to have all
the conditions that are necessary to a contented and prosperous farm life. Well, how
is it to be done ? I have indicated one scheme
1879
[COMMONS] 1880
that is, in my opinion. of absolute importance, and that is a scheme of irrigation
by
means of wells. That is not new in this
House. I proposed it before, but it fell on
deaf ears. In fact, the suggestion of irrigation at all, when I proposed it in
1889 or 1890, raised a certain amount
of resentment in the minds of some
of my hon. friends. I suggested at that
time that we should have artesian wells.
All parts of the country are not fit for artesian wells but these palts fit for artesian
wells can be irrigated in that way most successfully. I remember I gave an instance
of what I have seen in Dakota. I was riding and saw what seemed to be a lake. From
the conformation of the country it was like
tht driest prairie country we have, and I
galloped up to where the lake was, and said Â
to a lad who was attending some cattle:
You have a fine lake of water there : where
does it come from and where does it empty ?
He replied that it was purely artificial. that
it was from an artesian well, and he directed
me to where the well was. I rode there,
and saw a pipe emptying water into a vast
tank, the overflow passing down the side of
the hill and in one of the hollows making a
fine lake, useful for the watering of cattle
and also for purposes of irrigation. These
are the courses which I think should be pursued. Let me make a general proposition.
In the North-west Territories we have, according to the last census as large a population
as British Columbia ; we have an area
transcending that of any province of the Dominion by many multiples: we have that
which at the present time is one of the most
important possessions a country can possess,
and that is vast fertile plains; we have a
population that man for man will compare
with the population of any province of Canada. What we say is this, and we feel very
strongly about it—we do not want to be
treated on any other footing than that on
which the provinces are treated. We do not
want, for instance, to have this kind of feeling: Well. we can treat the North-west
in a
different way from Ontario. Quebec, British
Columbia or Nova Scotia. The North-west
wants the same consideration, the same
means of asserting itself in the federation,
the same means of making its importance
felt, and it wants also to be treated with the
same respect, to have its citizens, the men
who have thrown in their lot with it and
identified their lives with its development
and progress, treated precisely on the same
plane as the men are treated who live in the
older provinces. A wholly different sentiment
from that pervades the minds of all eastern
politicians, I do not care whether they belong to the Liberal or Conservative party,
a
sentiment that the North-west can be treated
differently, and that something will do for
the North-west that would not do for British
Columbia, Nova Scoria, New Brunswick, Ontario or Quebec. We entirely object to that
attitude we entirely object to that state of
mind. We say that is not respectful to us,
on the contrary it is quite offensive to us:
and we say moreover, although that may be
construed as a social or a civic sentiment
merely, it is closely related to the material
progress of those vast Territories on which
so much can be built, out of which so much
can be made for the Dominion of Canada,
and out of which so much can be made for
the Empire too. We say it would be a dangerous and bad thing, vicious in every possible
way if the people of the Territories,
now when public opinion is being formed
there, were deprived of these conditions for the production of the sense of dignity
which exist in other parts of the Dominion. The view too much taken in the past has
been,
and it is the view taken in this House—hon. gentlemen cannot make any party capital
out of this—it is the view that has obtained
in this House, and probably obtains here yet
—is what I would call the greengrocer view,
the view of trying to make so much out of it.
When I hear hon. gentlemen speak about the
amount spent on the North-west Territories
and speak of the debt incurred for the Northwest Territories, they speak as though
the
Territories were not part of Canada, and that
if the Territories have been brought into existence, and are now a great factor in
the
wealth of Canada, the North-west owes that
to the Dominion ; but I say here that Canada
owes more to the North-west than the Northwest owes to Canada. Eastern Canada. Ontario,
Quebec and other provinces, have open
ed up the country, and we thank them for
that. And whom have we mainly to thank
for opening up the country ? I think a good
deal of thanks is due to the present Government, in regard to which it is said that
this is
a motion of want of confidence. But let it be
considered for one moment as to what has
been the result of the expenditure on railways going into that country, what has been
the result of the expenditure in opening up
that country. You have at the present moment areturn of over 50 per cent to the
wealth of Canada for every $100 spent in
that country. Take Winnipeg to-day. The
assessed value of property there is over  $22,000,000, the assessed value of Brandon
is
$5,000,000 or $6,000,000, then there is the assessed value to Moosomin, Qu'Appelle,
Wolseley, Regina, Moose Jaw, Medicine Hat,
and Calgary right along the line, and leaving altogether aside the value of the farm,.
you have in the wealth brought into existence in these towns more than 50 per cent
of the amount that has been Spent in opening
up the North-west. You talk about the debt.
The hon. member for South Oxford (Sir
Richard Cartwright) talks about debt. as
though going into debt was some great evil.
Going into debt and spending the money that
has been obtained is no evil. Spending
such money wastefully or squandering
would be a great evil, it is true : but if you
can borrow money at 3% per cent and invest
it so as to yield 10, 15, 20 or even 50 per cent,
1881 [FEBRUARY 17, 1896] 1882
as some of our investments are yielding, this
is one of the most advantageous results in
the way of statesmanship the Government
can accomplish. Let me say this about the
debt, that if you will take the debt of Canada—and I will make this general statement
as hearing on the North-west—for the time
usually taken {or purposes of comparison.
sixteen or seventeen years, if you take the
difference between the debt at that time and
the net debt to-day. and then take the
amount of capital that has been brought into existence by the expenditure of that
debt.
I venture to say that the whole increase will
be wiped out as with a sponge. and a large
asset will still remain. All that is true in
every detail in regard to the North-west. I
must not refer to a past debate. and I need
not, do so : but in the press and in other
quarters I have seen some statements about
the old sections in the North-west Territories
and l have been asked why I did not take
up a question like the settlement of the odd
sections of the country. As early as 1885.
before I was a member of the House. I proposed a plan to the Government. It is on
record in the Library and hon. members
have only to go there and they will see my
plan. I proposed that' the Government
should buy back all the land alienated to the
Canadian Pacific Railway and open all those
lands to settlement. The six million odd
acres that were brought back, were, I think.
bought back at $1.50 per acre. Now , suppose
that same price were given for what remains.Â
Mr. DAVIN. I expect there are about 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 acres still remaining. probably
more. I maintain that you cannot do better than to buy back these odd sections and
open them for settlement. Here is my point : Suppose you open them for settlement,
and a farmer comes in, and brings in his family of four, and they eat and drink and
travel ; the railway company, instead of losing by alienating the lands which it was
holding, at $3 or $3 an acre, would be the gainer. I must say, however, for the Canadian
Pacific Railway, that they have been selling lands at a very low figure, and no complaint
can be brought against them on that head. But, however low or however high they have
been selling, they cannot get such a good return for their lands, as the return they
would get by having a farmer settled there, whose wife and children and friends would
travel, as well as himself. On the other hand, the Gov ernment could not invest money
better than by buying back these lands, because they would have the revenue swelled
by the indirect taxation on the farmer. Besides that, if every settler is worth $1,000,
then every family of three or four on a farm, would add considerably to the wealth
of the country.
Now, Mr. Speaker, I proposed this in 1885, and if my friend from Guysborough (Mr.
Fraser) were here, I would suggest to him
that he should remember that. I cannot.
recollect that any member of the Opposition
took the matter up when I spoke of it before ; but a thing has occurred within the
last, two years that I am very glad of, and
which has made a great change and a great
improvement in the temper of this House.
The hon. gentleman who leads the Opposition has visited North-west Territories.
together with my hon. friend from Lincoln
(Mr. Gibson). and my hon. friend from Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) and a number of leading
men in the Reform party. The result
of that visit has been most gratifying, and,
in my opinion, most useful. In their
speeches, whether in or out of this House,
these gentlemen take a wholly different
tone in regard to these Territories from
what they were accustomed to. The fact
is, that before visiting these Territories,
they did not realize what they were ; and I
have. never met a politician, whether of my
own political thought or not, whoever wouldÂ
say that he had any idea what these Territories were until after he had visited them.
But after visiting there, he never again has
any doubt as to what a significance these
Territories have for the people of Canada.
He knows well that there the battle of our
national life will be fought and won, and
that there, also, the greatest battle for the
Empire can he fought and won. We are
all of us-at all events in the party to which
I belong-we are all of us in favour of what
is called preferential trade within the Empire. That is nothing more than an Imperial
Zollverein. Now, Sir, that idea was
suggested, I forget how long ago, by Mr.
Justice Byles, who, when he wrote his book.
the " Fallacies of Free Trade," was not, I
think, then on the bench, but was a thoughtful, able barrister, in London. Justice
Byles
pointed out how absurd it was for England,
and how absurd it was for the colonies to remain apart, when by an Imperial Zollverein
they could do the greatest possible good to themselves, commercially, aye, and especially
for England, politically, as well I say here, that if Canada is to be to the Empire
what Canada is capable of being, those Territories must be filled up. If they are
not populated, Canada cannot be the right arm, as she is capable of being, to the
Empire. After all, Mr. Speaker, Manitoba and the North-west Territories should be
looked at as one. If you of to the Lake of the Woods, and run a diagonal line right
up to the Yellowhead Pass, you will find that all south of that you have got a vast
region of fertile land, and from five miles on this side of the Rockies, right to
the foot of the Rockies, you have coal fields that are themselves potentialities to
the Empire. We have the finest coal beds in the world in the North-west Territories,
we have the finest lands in the world and the greatest amount of them in the North-west
Territories, and these are greatly needed for the develop
1883
[COMMONS] 1884
ment of Canada. In fact, they are the great
conditions to the development of a country
like this.
Mr. MULOCK. Why do not the people
go there to develop them ?
Mr. DAVIN. That is a very important
question. and let me say in regard to that
" why," if my hon. friend (Mr. Mulock) had
visited those Territories as I visited them,
in 1882, and wandered around those fertile
fields, and dug down eight feet in the richest loam,—
Mr. DAVIN. Yes, eight and nine feet of
the richest loam you could dig there.
Mr. DAVIN. It would not be exhausted
for many a year.
Mr. GILLMOR. No, you would have to
dig the top off before you could plough it.
Mr. DAVIN. My hon. friend employs
words differently from what I do. I like to
hear my hon. friend (Mr. Gillmor) speak.
Unless when he speaks on the tariff, he is
a man of a cheerful turn of mind, but when
he speaks on the tariff, he is the Mrs. Gummidge of the Reform party. My hon. friend
from York (Mr. Mulock) asks the question :
Why are not these lands populated ? What
I say is this : If you had visited these Territories in 1882 you would have thought,
as
we all thought, as I dare say my hon.
friend from Winnipeg (Mr. Martin) thought,
that these Territories were going to fill up ;
in fact, that the population would flow into
them. That was our opinion, and we were
perfectly certain of it. And now take the
calculations that were made by the hon.
baronet, the Secretary of State, when he
was Finance Minister. These calculations
have been quoted here as though they were
some reproach to him. Take the calculations made by my late right honourable
friend Sir John A. Macdonald, as to how
that land would fill up, how many thousands
would be there in 1891, how much
money would be got, and so on, and
which calculations are quoted in the
Liberal newspapers, and elsewhere as
against the Conservative party. Sir,
I say that the mistakes of calculation
that were made were mistakes that were inevitable, looking at the conditions of the
country at that time. No man, I do not care
how pessimistic he was, how gloomy may
have been his mental liver, how prone he
may have been to take a jaundiced view of
things—no man could visit those Territories
in 1882 without believing that, in the course
of ten or fifteen years, there would be millions of people there. As the hon. member
for Winnipeg (Mr. Martin) and the hon. member for West Huron (Mr. Cameron), who
visited the Territories at that time, know,
you could not visit any part of the world
where the conditions promised more comfort
or more prosperity for the farmer. Was it
not natural. then. that sanguine men should
make the calculations they did ? The attitude of mind that was shown by Sir
John Macdonald. and by others at that
time, was a natural one. It was sincere.
They thought what everybody else thought.
What made us go up there and invest what
money we had in farm property ? We
thought people would crowd in. homesteads
would fill up, and then they would come and
buy from us the railway lands we had
bought. Men like Sir Charles Tapper, the
Secretary of State, and Sir John Macdonald,
men of sanguine mind, naturally made calculations roseate with hope. Now, let me
say this. There was more power in such
calculations—aye, and more truth—than in
the gloomy and despairing views taken by
the hon. gentlemen who opposed them.
There were two things in these calculations.
There was, first, power—steam—go-ahead;
in the next place, they were more true to
what has taken place since. I heard Mr.
Blake, I think when he was a member of
this House—I certainly heard him out of the
House—calculate that the Canadian Pacific
Railway, as it was built, was an impossibility. We know how, at Aurora he spoke of
the impossibility of getting through the " sea
of mountains." I say there was more consonance with the ultimate fact in the calculations
of Sir Charles Tupper and Sir John
Macdonald than in the somewhat gloomy vaticinations of those who opposed them. But,
Sir, what form did the adverse criticisms
upon their policy take ? Their opponents
went about, saying that the building of the
Canadian Pacific Railway would ruin the
country. What was the answer ? The answer was: You will have such and such
Wealth in return; lands will be sold ; and,
as Sir John Macdonald pointed out—in 1891,
I think it was—every cent of the cost of the
Pacific Railway will have been paid. Well,
Sir, every cent of the cost of the Pacific
Railway has been paid, but not in that
way.
Mr. DAVIN. My hon. friend laughs.
not expect anything else. They belong to
the spirit that denies. They are a party
wanting in faith. They are a party of political unbelief. They have no confidence
whatever in the future of anything, and they
can only realize that it exists when it actu
1885 [FEBRUARY 17, 1896] 1886
ally comes before them. Well, Mr. Speaker,
what I want to say is this, that the attitude
taken by Sir John Macdonald, in consequence of these criticisms,continued too long.
I remember when it was determined—I happened to be here in Ottawa at the time—determined,
not by Sir John Macdonald, but
by another gentleman, to close up the mile
belt, and to close up Southern Manitoba;
and a man whom we all honoured greatly.
and whose memory we honour in this House,
the late John Henry Pope. who was then
Minister of Agriculture, told me of this, and
said he thought it was a very serious step.
I thought so, too, and I went to the Acting
Minister and tried to argue him out of it:
but I failed to do it, and Southern Manitoba
and the mile belt were closed. It was a
very bad policy. I commenced at once to
attack the policy ; and in the papers down
in the cast I was attacked for attacking the
policy of the Department of the Interior of
that day. To his honour, be it said, the late
Sir John Macdonald, my leader of that day,
wrote to me: " Don't mind these attacks
upon you; you express the opinion of the
country where you are, and it would be a
most disastrous thing if you expressed the
opinion of Ottawa; I have the utmost confidence in you—go on and express the opinions
of the country where you are." And,
when Sir John Macdonald was again taking
charge of the Department of the Interior, I
wrote to him in this language: "In the history of human ineptitude, there never was
such a damnable—"
Mr. DAVIN. Yes, that was the word I
used—" such a damnable act of policy as
closing up Southern Manitoba and the mile
belt." We got them opened up, and I went
and saw Burgess. I said, " Burgess, I think
the old chief must have resented the language of the letters I wrote to him."—I wrote
in strong language. He said, " Not at all.
He brought out the letter in which you spoke
of the damnable act of folly, and he said,
" Burgess, when "Davin speaks in that way,
something is wrong.' " I had broken away
from my conventional and inveterate reticence, and I had talked in the large language
of the earlier gods. What I say is, that the
party and the government that I support
have piled up such great services to this
country that they can afford to have mistakes of this or that man referred to. The
result of their closing up Southern Manitoba
and the mile belt, in the teeth of the advice
of the late John Henry Pope and myself—
against my persistent protest—was, as everybody knows who has lived in Manitoba, that
there was a great deal of discontent and a
great deal of retardation in the country. The
results of that act linger with us to-day.
Now, why was that done ? The gentleman
who closed them up spoke to me in this wise
—and it illustrates what I want to strike. He
said : " What is the value of land in Southern
Manitoba to-day ?" I said, "I believe
it is worth about $7 an acre: but
what do you mean by asking me that
question ? Do you mean that you would
regard it as a private person would ?
There is the greatest possible difference
between a trading corporation or a private
individual and a government. The government, by holding lands at $7 an acre, may
make a stroke of policy most foolish, but
an individual or a corporation, the more
they get for their lands, the more money
they gain. The proper way for a government to treat districts, lands and territories,
is to consider the country as a family, and
to consider that all which makes for the
wealth and advancement of each part of
that family adds so much to the wealth of
the family. What I want, therefore, is to
rid hon. gentlemen of the idea of looking to
the North-west with the view of making
money out of it or of getting an income out
of it. The proper way to regard the Department of the Interior is not to regard it
as a
department from which to obtain income,
but as the means of filling up the country
with immigrants. The view of getting so
much income out of the country is an entirely mistaken one. I hope that in these
few remarks I have made my meaning
clear. I mean that the development of
these Territories is of vital importance to
Canada and the Empire : I mean that they
should be treated on the same footing of
dignity as the other parts of the Dominion.
Mr. DAVIN. I suggest that a very small
change be made and that the local legislature be placed precisely on the footing of
a
provincial legislature.
Mr. DAVIN. Have it made into a province. I am glad my hon. friend referred
to that. Now is the time to do it. We see
the folly of having small provinces down by
the Atlantic. We do not want petty provinces— Â
Mr. MULOCK. No reflections on the maritime provinces.
Mr. DAVIN. I make none. But every
statesman from the maritime provinces,
with whom I have discussed this subject,
has admitted it would be a good thing to
have Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and
Prince Edward Island all in one. It would
be foolish to look forward to Assiniboia, Saskatchewan and Alberta being made
into separate provinces. The only persons
who will clamour for that are people who
have moneyed interests in certain towns.
You will get a few people in Calgary to
clamour, for making Alberta a province, a few people in Regina to clamour
for making Assiniboia a province, and a
1887 [COMMONS] 1888
few people in Prince Albert to urge that
the Saskatchewan district be made a province. Everybody knows that you cannot
expect to have in those Territories. for many
a year, such a dense population as would
justify the existence of three or four provinces there. I do not want to enter into
particulars. l merely point out the way in
which the North-west expects to be treated.
Everybody understands how undesirable it
is that I should particularize, but in every
way we expect to be treated on a footing
with the other provinces.
Mr. MULOCK. I ask the hon. gentleman to particularize to the extent of telling us what his proposed
remedy is, and in what way the Territories are now treated different from other provinces.
Mr. DAVIN. Mainly this. At present the
money voted is practically under the control of the assembly. Practically. the assembly
controls it. although not technically.
After this Government has handed it over
to the assembly, the assembly is allowed
to control it. Although this Government
hold a certain control. yet that is never
fully exercised. At present there are four
gentlemen there. who are called the executive of the assembly. These gentlemen advise
the Lieutenant-Governor as to the. expenditure, and they are chosen by the assembly.
What I propose is that we should
have a small local government, just as they
have in Prince Edward Island. It will not cost
more than the executive costs at present.
Mr. Haultain and Mr. Ross will draw a sal
ary as large as two Ministers will in Prince
Edward Island. I propose that they should
be in a position to take a responsible course as do the Ministers in other parts.
I propose, also, that all high officials, now chosen
elsewhere, should be chosen from the Territories. But I do not dwell on that, because
that follows as a mere corollary. That is
what I mean by saying that we should be
treated on an equal footing with the other
provinces. The subject is one which should
be treated in more detail and at more
length. in order to do full justice to it. But I
think I have sufficiently explained my views
in order that we should take practical action. A very slight change in the law would
be sufficient, but, of course, I do not expect anything to be done this session. The
matter would require more careful consideration and a carefully prepared measure,
so that I do not expect anything to be done
this session. All I desired to accomplish
was to give expression to the opinion of my
constituents, and of the whole Territory, as
to the matters I have brought before the
House. I have ventured to make a suggestion that will entail some more expenditure.
My remarks on that particular may,
I hope, influence my hon. friend the Finance Minister, when preparing supplemental
Estimates. There are certain practical things that may he done for the Ter
ritories in those supplemental Estimates. But
what I wanted especially to clear from the minds of this House and of the Government
is that the North-west Territories have in any way failed to give a good return for
the outlay we have made there. The North-west at present, with its developed wealth,
has so added to the assets on Canada that the amount of money spent in
opening: it up is a very minor matter, in
my opinion, indeed. If once we accept the
view that the North-west has paid its way,
that it has no large. debit against it, then,
when the Council come to. consider the proposals of expenditure, they will not be
so unlikely to take an illiberal view as they would if the notion that somehow money
had been spent there which had not met
with an adequate return.
Mr. DALY moved the adjournment of the
debate.
Motion agreed to, and debate adjourned.
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