NEWFOUNDLAND
Hon. Mr. Rose moved that the House go into Committee of
the Whole to consider the resolutions on the subject of the Union of
Newfoundland to the Dominion of Canada.
Mr. Mackenzie, before the Minister of Finance
proceeded to offer any remarks on his resolutions, wished to know whether he
was prepared to lay before the House information as to the statistics
of Newfoundland, which it was necessary the House should possess before it could
intelligently consider the resolutions. It was impossible for any but a very few
of the members to obtain
this information for themselves. He had gone to the Library to-day and
found that almost every volume relating to the statistics of Newfoundland
had been taken away by parties connected with the Government.
Hon. Mr. Rose said. that very full statistics as to
Newfoundland had been submitted to the Quebec Conference, and little change
had taken place since in the relative status of that Colony compared
with the others. He would be happy to give the fullest information in
his power as they went over the resolutions
seriatim. He was not aware of any books on
the subject having been taken from the Library, except that two hours ago he
had sent for a volume containing the latest statements of
exports and imports. In now moving that the Speaker do leave the
chair, for the House to go into Committee on these resolutions, he
would briefly give the House such information as he thought it should be
put in possession of. At this period of the session, and as the terms
of the agreement had been very fully discussed at the time of the
Quebec Conference and subsequently, he did not intend to weary the House
with many observations. He took it for granted that the policy of
bringing Newfoundland into the Union would not be disputed. Any one who
looked at the matter would see that this Union could not be complete
so long as this Island, stretching across the Gulf of the St.
Lawrence, with Nova Scotia on one side and Labrador on the other, did not
belong to the Dominion. He thought, too, that the extent and
value of the trade of Newfoundland were not sufficiently known. He would first
allude to the extent of the Maritime interest. According to the latest
statistical information within our reach, no less than 1,557 vessels
were owned in Newfoundland, having a tonnage of 87,000 tons, and
an estimated value of $4,000,000. Then as regarded its foreign trade
1,216 vessels in one year entered the various ports of Newfoundland, and
1,016 vessels cleared. The aggregate of seamen belonging to
these vessels was upwards of 10,000. There were engaged besides in the
seal-fishing 230 sail, and in the cod-fishing 13,000 boats, employing a
population of nearly 40,000 persons. Newfoundland stood in a happy
648
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
position. Her exports for a number of years had always been larger
than her imports, but the character of her population and of her
industries was such that she furnished a market for the surplus products of
the rest of the Dominion. The population of Newfoundland was
wholly a consuming population, raising nothing and manufacturing nothing.
They were wholly a consuming population, engaged in maritime pursuits.
The following were some of the leading articles of import:- Flour,
200,000 bbls; Indian meal, 40,000 bbls; biscuit, 50,000 cwt; butter,
1,500,000 lbs; cheese 100,000 lbs; oatmeal, 4,000 bbls; peas, 4,000
bbls; manufactured tobacco, 1,000,000 lbs; woollen blankets, cloths,
leather, etc., $1,500,000. The great bulk of the importations were the
products in which other portions of Canada abounded, and which we could
supply, and she would furnish a market not only for our
agricultural products, but for our woollen and other manufactures.
Mr. Mackenzie thought the hon. gentleman[']s figures as to
biscuits were too large.
Hon. Mr. Rose said they had struck him as rather large.
The articles he had just mentioned, he continued, constituted the
great bulk of the imports of Newfoundland, and almost every one of
them could be supplied by the other portions of the Dominion. Then the
seafaring population which Newfoundland would add to the
Union would be very valuable. France had long shown her appreciation of
such a body of men by the bounty which she gave her fishermen. She gave
$2 on each quintal of fish taken, or a total bounty of about a
quarter of a million sterling. (Hear.) He now desired to say a word or
two regarding the exports of that Colony. The last returns give the
total exports at about $5,000,000 and a little over, of which $1,500,000
went to the United States, and over $3,000,000 to England; $70,000
direct to Spain, $800,000 direct to Portugal, and $70,000 direct
to Brazil. Now, what the Dominion needs is variety of markets. Here we
can secure three outlets. To show the trade we might look forward to with
this colony, the honourable gentleman stated the sources from whence
the principal articles consumed there were at present imported.
Out of their entire $5,500,000 of imports of last year, $1,500,000
came from the United States, including and principally composed of
the very articles he had just now enumerated—flour, butter, cheese, and
such articles as we produce. About one-third of a million came
from Hamburg, and consisted of butter, lard, biscuits,
&c.; $2,048,000 came from England, in
articles such as woollens, blankets, &c, leaving only some $400,000
worth for the whole of Canada. There was, he believed, very little
doubt, that instead of this miserable moiety we got, the whole of this large
trade might be ours. To show how much more was consumed by
Newfoundland, in comparison with the other Provinces, he would state that in
the latter the imports ranged from about $20 to $30 per
head, while in Newfoundland they reached $42.07 per head. (Hear, hear.) He
would now say a word or two as to the mineral wealth of the Colony.
Its development had increased only recently. Only two mines were yet open,
in which 500 men were employed, who, with their families, made a
population of over a thousand souls settled in a country, where four
years ago only three or four families were resident. Having read from Sir
William Logan[']s report to show the great value of this and
the other mining districts, the hon. gentleman said he would
reserve further details of the scheme for the discussion in Committee,
and would take up no more time with preparatory remarks further
than to observe that the resolutions before the House were based on
those of the Quebec Conference.
Mr. Masson (Terrebonne,) enquired what steps were taken
with regard to the protection of the inshore fisheries?
Hon. Mr. Rose replied that they had the treaty rights,
whatever they might be, to guard against American fishermen.
The House then went into Committee on the
resolutions, Mr. Street in the Chair.
Hon. Mr. Rose moved the first resolution, "That it is
expedient to provide that Canada shall be liable for the debts and
liabilities of Newfoundland existing at the time of the Union."
In answer to Mr. Mackenzie,
Hon. Mr. Rose said that the debt of Newfoundland was in round numbers $1,400,000. It was at the
same rate per
head as New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, $27.60.
Mr. Blake, Does the $1,400,000 include the liability to
the water company?
Hon. Mr. Rose said it did not. This was only the direct
debt of Newfoundland.
Mr. Blake—Does it include everything but the water
works liability?
650
COMMONS DEBATES June 8, 1869
Hon. Mr. Rose.—Yes, and the debt stands in a very
satisfactory way so far as the Dominion is concerned in this way. It is due
in a great measure to the people of Newfoundland themselves,
mainly to the Savings Banks, and bore a small rate of interest. The
aggregate amount due was $651,000, of which $450,000 was due the
Government. The greater amount of this is due to 1,385 depositors; of whom
640 were depositors under $200, 400 under $500, and 200 under $1,000
each. The rate of interest was mainly 3 per cent. The debt of the colony
bore various rates of interest—4, 5, 5 1/2, and 6 per cent.
Hon. Mr. Smith asked if there were any assets to
represent the debt. What property was to be handed over?
Hon. Mr. Rose—Their revenues are to be handed over. The
average receipts from the Customs for the five years previous to 1867,
were from $510,000 to $530,000; and in 1868 $634,000.
Hon. Mr. Wood—Was the debt created for public works, or
did it arise on annual deficits?
Hon. Mr. Rose—Some of it was created by public works, a
large sum being laid out on roads and bridges. The deficits he did not
think would amount to any large sum.
Hon. Mr. Wood—It seems by the returns to be the normal
state of things that $2,000 a year must be paid to the poor of the Island.
Mr. Mackenzie contended that the returns showed that
even a larger sum was annually paid to the poor. As to a large portion of
the debt being at four per cent.-
Hon. Mr. Rose said he only stated that some portion was at
that figure.
Mr. Blake—At the present rate, what will be the annual
charge undertaken by Canada under these resolutions, inclusive of whatever
amount may be due the Water Company, and will have to be borne by the
Dominion?
Hon. Mr. Rose proposed to have answered this on a
subsequent resolution; but would state it at once. It was this:—Interest on
the amount by which the debt of Newfoundland is less per head than
Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Canada, $110,000 to $120,000, say
$115,000; the 80c per head, $140,000, Crown Lands, $150,000; Special
payments, $350,000; making in all $406,000 or $408,000.
Hon. Mr. Wood said that the debt per head was only
$25.76 and a fraction for the Provinces now in the Union.
Hon. Mr. Rose said he had already stated that he
proposed to make it equal to that of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.
Mr. Blake—That is, according to the proposed
arrangement, not the existing one.
Hon. Mr. Smith said that having accepted the situation
he would not oppose the resolutions, but he thought he could show
that this bargain was very one-sided. The Customs revenue would in all
probability fall far short of that of any previous year. It was estimated in 1868
at $468,000. Under the Union what would be the
result? The duty on flour, which realized upwards of $69,000 to Newfoundland would
of course be lost, as it would not be
imposed. Nor would that on other articles, amounting in all to upwards
of $114,000. Deducting this amount, let us see what we get and what we will
give. We will not probably get more than $300,000 from the Customs,
and we will pay interest on their debt, $3,500,000—$175,000; and their
debt, it had to be remembered, differed from that of the other Provinces.
Theirs arose in the construction of public works which were handed
over to the Dominion. Then we have to pay $150,000 for Crown lands which
were worth nothing, Last year the revenue from these was $2,600,
whereas the cost was $6,000. Yet here we gravely propose to pay $150,000
a year rent, and manage them besides. Then the 80c per head, amounting
to $104,000; subsidy $350,000; steamboat communication not now
provided for between Newfoundland
652
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
and England, as well as a subsidy to the existing line between
Newfoundland and Halifax, $75,000; also the Lieutenant-Governor[']s
salary, say $10,000; expenses of the revenue collection, $35,000;
judicial expenses, $10,000 or $15,000; making in all a payment to Newfoundland,
under the proposed arrangement, of upwards of
$600,000, for which we are to receive $300,000. Was not that a pretty dear
bargain? Why, it appeared that one-fifth of the entire revenue of the
Island, $50,000, had to be devoted to the support of the poor. Then
the resolutions will give them $100,000 more than they are accustomed to
have for their customary local wants. These matters ought to be
carefully considered, for, as he viewed it, while we were extending the area
of the Dominion, we were weakening our strength, and it might
unfortunately turn out that Newfoundland, instead of being a source of
strength, would be a source of weakness. (Cheers.)
Hon. Mr. Howe said he had no doubt that Canada, for her
own purposes, had formed this Confederacy. She had taken step after
step with a view to this consolidation, and in that view the acquisition of
Newfoundland was a matter of prime importance. We were enlarging our responsibilty:
we had stretched it westward until we hardly
knew its limits, and now must stretch it east as far as Newfoundland. At all events,
Newfoundland to us is a necessity. We
may throw ofi the great West, but we cannot throw ofi Newfoundland. It lies
in the very chops of the channel, as it were; is at the entrance of
our New Dominion, and to every man looking to the consolidation of the
Dominion he would say, Newfoundland is a necessity. Newfoundland is worth
having for her own value and importance; and her higher political
importance, in looking at the future, could not be over-rated. The five North
American Colonies had all their trials and tribulations in the past,
but Newfoundland had more than her share. Now she knocked at the door
of Confederation for admittance; she was not coerced, but wanted to come in
constitutionally, and for that reason he sympathized in her
application. She is the oldest Colony on the Continent, was discovered first,
and occupied first. The honourable gentleman proceeded to allude to two
or three delightful summers which he spent in that Colony, and said
what he then saw made him more willing to admit this people into the
Confederacy. In their towns he had found as educated, refined, and
wealthy a people as any on the main land,
and on their harbours and bays were to be found a population physically as
fine as any on the Continent. In point of beauty and social
attractiveness, the women of Newfoundland were magnificent, (loud laughter,)
many of them being equal to two-thirds of a man. (Renewed
laughter,) Having dwelt on the seafaring population, this Colony
would bring to the Dominion some 38,000, and stated that this would
swell the number of able bodied seamen in the Confederacy to 69,000 or
70,000. The hon. gentleman went on to allude to the political celebrities of
Newfoundland. Men of enlarged mind and true political sagacity were, it appeared,
never wanting to fight her battles where
difficulties arose, and he hoped to see some of these men in the service
of the Confederacy. She was a country with an interior. All her wealth
and industry lay on the sea coast; but she had got an interior, and
you can reach it. You can cross nearly the whole island by water. The hon.
gentleman spoke of the fine harbours of the island, and said in some of
the towns, although the inhabitants appeared to be few, they were
worth their thousands of pounds sterling. The cod- fishery
was one for which they had a hard contest, and out of which they made
comparatively little; but the seal-fishery was a rich one,
peculiarly their own, and could not be taken from them. In a small town, in
which he was one day, he met a fine sturdy fisherman with a gin-bottle
about as big as a clothes basket, (loud laughter,) who had got in $10,000
worth of seals in four weeks. That would show the exceeding value of
the crop. With another story about a relative of his, named Paddy
Malony, the President of the Council subsided.
Mr. Blake. alluding to the remarks of the
President of the Council, said it might be that the observations from
his side of the House had been immaterial. It might be that they had
taken too low and practical a view of some of the aspects of the question.
He did not think, however, that they had done more to arrive at the
actual position of the facts than anything that had been done in that
direction by the hon. gentleman who had just taken his seat. The hon.
gentleman had rightly said that the inhabitants of Newfoundland were
not to be coerced into the Union. He (Mr. Blake) would say, neither ought
they to be bribed. (Hear, hear). He did not say whether they were
being bribed or not: but he wanted to get at the facts on which he
could form a judgment on that subject. He did not think the House had been
properly treated in the mode in which the Minister of Finance had
introduced the question, and
654
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869 sought to carry it to a conclusion. On
a question so important, he should give the whole details that were
involved in the arrangement under which it was proposed to
incorporate the Province of Newfoundland, so that members might have an
intelligent understanding of the whole matter, and know What they
would probably have to pay for Newfoundland, and what they would
probably derive from it, so that they might understand whether the bargain
was a fair or an unfair one. The Finance Minister answered this by
saying that they were merely consummating the proposition which
was made at the Quebec Conference. He (Mr. Blake) apprehended that
this House could not be held as bound by any propositions made at the
Quebec Conference, which were not then assented to, because
certain terms were then laid down of which many members of this House
might not approve, for the admission of Newfoundland and Prince Edward
Island, and which were not accepted by these Colonies. This House was
not to be bound for all time to come to incorporate Newfoundland and Prince Edward
Island on these terms. This was entirely a new
proposition for the admission of Newfoundland, and the House were
entitled to discuss and ascertain the justice or injustice of the terms on
which it was now proposed that it should enter the Union. Nor were the
terms the same. They differed in very important and material respects
from those offered at the Quebec Conference. The present aspect of
the question also differed very materially from its aspect at that
time. Then it was a question whether Confederation could at all be
accomplished, and the interests of the various Provinces had to be
consulted so as to get a scheme under which the subsidies to the various
local Legislatures should be based on some uniform
principle. As regards Newfoundland, there was an exceptional arrangement
that she should sell her Crown Lands to the Dominion and receive a
large annual sum for them. A reason for that existed then which did not
exist now. It was necessary in order not to interfere with the
apparent but delusive symmetry of the plan as to subsidies. That
symmetry was destroyed when it was agreed by the
delegates to give fixed subsidies of varying amounts to the four Provinces
not in proportion to their populations. These special subsidies would amount to 5
1/2 cents per head for Ontario, 6
cents for Quebec, 18 cents to Nova Scotia, 19 cents to New Brunswick, and
the special subsidy now proposed to be given to Newfoundland would be
28 cents per head
of the population. If fair to Newfoundland let a much larger sum than even
28c per head be given, as special subsidy, but he objected to its
being given under the guise of a sham bargain, to buy lands which we did not
want, which, to the Newfoundland Government itself, were a
source of annual expenditure instead of income, and would be still more so
when managed from this distance. The argument of necessity
was used by the President of the Council. That hon. gentleman said it
was absolutely necessary we should have Newfoundland, and the logical result
of that would be, as necessity had no law, that we would have to take
her own terms, whatever they might be. He (Mr. Blake) apprehended that
if there was any necessity in the case, it was just as necessary for
Newfoundland to have her fortunes united to the Dominion as it was for
the Dominion to get Newfoundland. He considered it not necessary, but of
high consequence to the future of the Dominion that Newfoundland
should be brought into the Union; yet not however of so high consequence as that
we should agree to unreasonable
demands, if unreasonable demands should be made; of not so high consequence
as that we could not afford to wait until reasonable propositions
should be submitted. He did not say that these demands were unreasonable. He
was simply pointing out that it was their duty to ascertain whether
they were reasonable or not, before acceding to them. The
following figures showed what he understood would have to be paid annually by
the Dominion for Newfoundland:—Subsidy, at 80c per head on a
population of 130,000, $104,000; special subsidy, $35,000; Interest on debt
at 5.23 per cent, $73,220; Five per cent allowed on the balance, by
which the debt fell short of the proposition of the other Provinces,
$110,505; annual payment for Crown Lands, $150,000. These sums amounted to
$472,725, all cash payments. Besides these, there were the charges for
the services which the Dominion performed ordinarily, and which it
would have to perform for Newfoundland, amounting, he estimated, to
$165,000, which, added to the other sum, made a total of $637,725 per
annum. He thought it might safely be said that the charge to the Dominion
on account of Newfoundland would be between $600,000 and
$650,000. Now from any statements he had seen as to the revenue he did
not anticipate that Newfoundland after she entered the Union would produce
an amount of revenue in any way approaching to $600,000. A
considerable proportion of the goods on which duty was now paid Would be
supplied from the other Provinces, and though
656
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
that would be an advantage to their trade, the revenue of course,
would correspondingly decrease, and the Finance Minister would not
have at his disposal the convenient mode of equalizing the revenue and
expenditure which the Government of Newfoundland now exercised, by adding 30 per
cent to the duties when it suited their
discretion. The Finance Minister said that last year the revenue was
estimated at $450,000, and actually reached $600,000. But how was this
affected? By the simple process of adding 30 per cent to the duties. He
thought it could not be doubted that in carrying out this
bargain the Dominion would have to pay a very large sum in excess of what it
would receive. If his hon. friend could show him that those figures
were not correct, and that the arrangements were of a better character than he supposed,
no one would be more delighted to be
convinced of that. He could see, however, no such pressing necessity for the junction
of Newfoundland as to justify us in the
present state of our finances, in making a bargain, by which we would
have to pay a much larger sum than we would receive; a bargain by which we
would pay a large sum in order to bribe Newfoundland to join us. He
should like the Finance Minister to deal with these figures which made out a
prima facie loss on our part, and if he could
not set them aside to show why we should encounter that loss. He (Mr.
Blake) was prepared to encounter some reasonable degree of
loss. He wanted to be liberal towards Newfoundland, but he did not
want that liberality to assume so gross a form, as that it could be
said that we had bribed and bought that Colony. (Hear, hear).
Hon. Mr. Rose said the figures he was about to submit he
hoped would show that we were not buying Newfoundland, but were merely
carrying out a fair arrangement with that Province. Foregoing for the
present the consideration of political and national advantages which we would derive
from the admission of
Newfoundland, he would only trouble the Committee with figures bearing
on the points adverted to by his honourable friend who had just sat down,
and by the member for Westmorland, who stated that all we would
receive from Newfoundland, after the Union, would be about $300,000, while
we would have to pay about $600,000. Now, what were the facts as to
the revenue? He would show what had been the Customs revenue during
the last eight years, under lower rates of duty, except in 1868, than now
existed in Newfoundland, and lower also than the rates that would be
imposed under the Dominion
tariff. The average Customs revenue for the five years from 1860 to 1865, was
$582,000; in 1866 it was $588,000; in 1867, $554,000. In 1868 the
total revenue was $634,000, of which, perhaps, $25,000 was miscellaneous
revenue.
Mr. Mackenzie—That included the amounts under the
sewerage and water rates, which will not come to the Dominion.
Hon. Mr. Rose said the hon. gentleman was mistaken.
These amounts did not come under the Consolidated Revenue of the country.
The question then came to be how much of the revenue we would lose,
although the House would hardly agree with his hon. friend that it was
altogether loss if the revenue were diminished in consequence of
our furnishing Newfoundland with $2,000,000 or $3,000,000 worth
of our manufactures, our butter, cheese, flour, oatmeal, peas, &c.,
which would go in free of duty. What we might directly lose in revenue
would be more than made up to us by the expansion of our trade,
and our finding an additional market for our surplus products. He
did not think, however, that the revenue would fall from $600,000 to
$300,000, as alleged by the member for Westmorland. That could not
well be when the rates of duty would be higher on cottons, woollens,
rum, gin, whiskey, brandy, sugar, molasses, tobacco, etc. On tea, also,
there was a small difference on certain kinds. From the most careful
estimates he had been able to obtain, he believed that for some years to
come they might expect to receive $500,000 in the way of revenue.
Coming to what we would have to pay on account of Newfoundland, he considered the
member for West Durham rather over-estimated the
amount when he placed it at $637,000. The following were the figures
which he (Mr. Rose) had before him. Newfoundland would receive,
1st Interest on the amount by which its debt falls short of the
average per head of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick say $115,000; 2nd. 80
cents per head on 180,000 population, $104,000; 3rd. The Grant for
Crown Lands, $150,000; 4th. The Special Grant in aid of legislation and
government, $35,000; total $404,000. The Dominion would pay the 80
cents per head, $104,000; Crown Lands. $150,000; special grants,
$35,000; interest on debt first to public, say $60,000; 2nd balance
payable to Newfoundland, say $115,000; together $175,000,
payable by the Dominion for services enumerated in the 10th
resolution say $150,000; tota1, $614,000. His hon. friend from Durham
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COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
had estimated the Dominion expenditure at $165,000, instead of
$150,000 which he (Mr. Rose) thought would cover the amount.
Mr. Mackenzie said Mr. Blake[']s estimate of the interest
on the balance debt was less than Mr. Rose[']s, being $110,000 in place of
$115,000, but his estimate of interest on the actual debt due to the
public was greater than Mr. Rose[']s, being $73,220, intead of $60,000.
Hon. Mr. Rose said the $60,000 would be about the
interest on the debt of $1,400,000.
Mr. Blake—My calculation was at 5 2/3 per cent.
Hon. Mr. Rose said the Dominion undertook to pay
interest on that debt, be the rate higher now; but he really thought that on
an item of this kind they need not have much discussion. The were
merely carrying out the principle which entered into the arrangements with all the
Provinces that the Dominion
should pay the actual interest on the existing debt to a certain amount, and
five per cent on the balance required to make up what was considered a
fair proportion of the debt. Well, he had stated the payments at
$614,000, and the probable revenue at $500,000. He did not say
that they would make up the whole difference out of the Crown lands
and mines, but he thought they might reasonably expect some profits from them
directly, and very large indirect profits from the development of the
mines. But be that as it might, an important question to be considered was how Newfoundland
stood with reference to this
arrangement. He took it for granted no one would desire Newfoundland to come in
except on terms which would enable her to
work satisfactorily in the Union, and he believed he could show that the
sums she would receive from the Dominion would be no more than were
necessary to enable her to provide for her local services. The member
for Westmorland estimated that the local services would require $300,000. He
(Mr. Rose) considered that by a fair and liberal estimate $400,000
would be necessary, and, as he had shown, $400,000 would be provided.
Mr. Blake—Some $7,000 or $8,000 are received for
license fees, at any rate.
Hon. Mr. Rose said when he stated none at all, he meant
they were of insignificant amount, certainly not reaching $20,000. He
was just now informed by the Receiver- General of Newfoundland
that they could not reach anything like that amount. The aggregate of local expenditures
would scarcely fall short of $300,000, besides
$100,000 for roads, bridges, piers and breakwaters.
Hon. Mr. Smith—My estimate of $300,000 included the
expenditure for roads and bridges, for which I put down $80,000.
Mr. Young—If the Finance Minister has the details, it
might be as well to give them.
Hon. Mr. Rose said the details were, to a certain
extent, conjectural; and if they entered into a minute discussion of them,
the particular statements might perhaps be unfairly used
against the hon. gentlemen now with us from Newfoundland when they went to
their elections.
Mr. Blake—How can we get at the general result without
the details?
Hon. Mr. Rose said, when their estimates came within a
few thousand dollars of each other, he thought he might claim the fulfilment of his
hon. friend[']s pledge, that he was prepared to
deal with the proposition in a fair and liberal spirit towards
Newfoundland.
After recess,
The House went again into Committee on
the Newfoundland resolutions—Mr. Harrison
in the chair.
Hon. Mr. Rose said he thought it would be more
convenient to give the figures applicable to each resolution as it was
reached, instead of giving the entire results, which must be to a
large extent, conjectural. The two important questions were, what was the
Dominion prepared to give, and what was Newfoundland
prepared to receive? The answer to these questions was that the Dominion
should give what would be in excess of the requirements for local
services, as anything like municipal or direct taxation would be out of the
question, under the circumstances of the population of
Newfoundland. The amount that would be required by Newfoundland to carry on
its
660
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869 Local Government would be in the
vicinity of $300,000, exclusive of the amount for roads and bridges,
piers, breakwaters, etc., which was about $100,000 more. The $300,000 was
thus made up: Education, $66,000; police, $36,000; Legislative
contingencies, $27,000; Lunatic Asylum, other asylums and relief of
the poor, $90,000; Departments of the Colonial Secretary, Treasury, Board of
Works, Attorney General, and Registrar, $18,000; repairs on public
buildings, $3,000; pensions, $9,000; printing, stationary and postages,
$5,000; gas, night police, &c., $5,000; coroners and administration of justice,
$20,000; agricultural societies, $2,000;
contingencies of the Lieutenant-Governor[']s office, insurance on
public buildings, &c., $4,500. These made a total of $286,000,
which was in the neighbourhood of the sum he had mentioned. The amounts
which would be paid by the Dominion, as he had formerly stated—for the
80 cents-a- head, special subsidy, 5 per cent on the balance
of the debt, and special expenditures undertaken by the
Dominion—would be $404,000. Adding the interest on the present debt, and
the $150,000, for Crown Lands, the total payment by the Dominion would
be $610,000.
Hon. Mr. Anglin did not feel any desire to higgle about
any terms which Newfoundland might make, or any advantages which might
be conceded to them; but the land transaction for which the Dominion was
asked to pay $150,000 a year was absurd. Let Newfoundland keep her
land, and collect her revenues by all means. The Dominion did not need it.
Basing his calculations on the estimates formerly needed for
the local services, he believed that instead of paying $140,000 we would,
within twelve months after confederation, have to vote $160,000 or
$200,000 for these services. In all he calculated that the expense would be $625,000.
That would be the expense of the Colony to
Confederation, not including additional legislative expenses. For all
this we would receive at the most a fraction over $400,000, so that we would
really pay $250,000 a year more than we received from this Province.
What he complained of was that unfair terms should be given. He would,
however, support the resolutions, believing that it would be better to
complete the Union. As to the land, he would again say, by all means
let Newfoundland keep her land. If she wants to get rid of it, perhaps the
great Ontario Ship Canal Company might get it to advantage.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Bodwell thought the information brought down very
meagre and unsatisfac
tory.
The Finance Minister gives detail, approximates to some other
detail, and then asks the House not to discuss the scheme too much.
He, (Mr. Bodwell), thought it absurd to ask the House to go blindly into
this scheme lest the discussion might effect the scheme adversely in
Newfoundland. What was the meaning of that proposition? Was it that they
should lend themselves to practice deception on the people of
Newfoundland in order to induce them to enter the Confederation? Such
a proposition was as monstrous as that by which they were called on to give
$150,000 a year for the land of Newfoundland. From all he could gather
these lands were of little value as mineral lands, and agriculturally
they were worth little or nothing. The real question was, is Newfoundland
taking the value of its imports, revenue &c, worth to the Dominion
what it is proposed we should give for it? If it is, we ought to accept the
offer made; if not, we ought to reject it. The question was not so
much what Newfoundland required, but what the Dominion required. The
land proposition he regarded as especially deceptive and absurd. Although he
would not oppose the resolutions, he felt that insufficient
explanation had been offered. Before the scheme finally passed, he hoped that
more information would be given, and the land grant would be
struck out.
Sir George E. Cartier said that with the exception of $5,000 subsidy, Newfoundland was now seeking admission
into the
Union on the terms offered her in the Quebec Conference.
Hence the question was not in fact one susceptible of much discussion. There
was a bright and dark side to the picture, and certainly it
could not be said that the Finance Minister had altogether pointed out the
bright side. He (Sir George E. Cartier) would not look at the dark
side, as spoken of by the member for West Durham. That honourable gentleman spoke
as if he were not bound by the Quebec Scheme,
because he had not been in Parliament then. He was certainly a prominent
public man in Ontario then. He was a member of the party led
by the Hon. George Brown, and still belonged to that party, and that
honourable gentleman, it was well known, had taken a prominent part in the
Quebec Conference, and wished to unite Newfoundland in the
way now proposed for that action. The member for West Durham was, as a
member of the party represented by Mr. Brown to a certain extent
responsible, and could not now deny that responsibility. As to the
falling off of the customs with Newfoundland, which had been
predicted, suppose
662
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869 it did take place, what then? Simply
that what we would lose in customs our manufacturers must
gain. So it would be with the excise. The fact was that as Newfoundland
went ahead and increased in population so would we. Our wealth must
instantly grow with this addition, but even if we did lose $100,000 or
so a year, what was that with the results which might be expected from
the acquisition of an island in so important a position—one forming a very
material link in that chain of Confederation which it should be the
wish and glory of all to complete. (Cheers.)
Mr. Oliver was strongly in favour of completing the Confederation of the British North American
Provinces; but he
thought too much was being paid for this acquisition of territory. It was clearly
shewn that for the privilege of annexing
it we would have to pay from $110,000 to $200,000 a year, part of which
was occasioned by a ridiculous land purchase. If that land was good it
were better by far that the people of Newfoundland should keep it
themselves, and if it were bad it certainly could be of no use to the
Dominion; and it would be good policy to leave it with the Islanders to manage and
give them a subsidy.
Mr. Mills.—We have been told by the Minister of Justice
that these resolutions are intended to give effect to the terms agreed
upon at the Quebec Conference; that we are pledged to the resolutions of
that Convention, and that we are not at liberty to enquire
into the fairness of the terms. I, sir, entirely repudiate any
such doctrine. The Legislature and delegates of Newfoundland have
repudiated it. They rejected the Quebec scheme. They refused at
the time to accept the union upon the terms agreed upon by the
delegates at Quebec. Their Legislature recently proposed other
terms, and the resolutions now before the committee propose other
terms. (Hear, hear.) Let me ask ministers how they can for a
moment pretend to argue that we are tied hand and foot to the terms of
the Quebec Convention, while they and the Newfoundland delegates have
in the interest of Newfoundland ventured to propose something more? (Hear,
hear.) What are the facts? It is well known that the demand for
Confederation grew out of sectional difficulties in the Government
of Canada; that Upper Canada demanded constitutional changes
to prevent the imposition of local laws against the wishes of
a majority of her representatives; to prevent a wasteful expenditure
of public monies;
to prevent an unfair distribution of the revenue to which she so
largely contributed. (Hear, hear.) Well, sir, it is not at all surprising if to
attain this end, and to correct what she
believed to be great abuses, her delegates were ready to make liberal
concessions to the other Provinces. Confederation is an
accomplished fact. Ontario has control of her own local affairs. The reasons
which excused, if they did not justify, the liberal terms proposed in
the Quebec Convention, no longer exist. (Hear, hear.) We are as terms
proposed in the Quebec Convention, little trammelled as were the delegates
at that Convention; and we are bound by every consideration of public
duty to consider the terms submitted to us upon their merits. The
gentlemen who formed the Quebec Convention had long been connected
with public affairs. They were no doubt able men; but they had been
connected with a system of Government very different from the one they
proposed to adopt. I am doing them no injustice when I say that
although they may have had some general knowledge of the external
features of the federal system, they were totally unacquainted with its
internal organization and with many of its vital principles; they were
not aware of all the changes and modifications the new system
necessitated in the old. (Hear, hear.) This is abundantly verified in the
anomalies and contradictions in our system. Already our short
experience has brought many defects under our observation, and it appears to
me it would be the height of folly to throw away the experience we
have acquired, abdicate the right to judge for ourselves, and
adhere without a pretence of reason to what was done in
great haste, under great pressure, five or six years ago. (Hear, hear.) The
terms proposed in these resolutions is a proposal that
Newfoundland shall come in with a debt of $6,500,000 with the chance of
having her general subsidy increased from $104,000 to $320,000 a year.
If Ontario were allowed the same amount instead of coming into the
Confederation with a debt of $35,000,000 she would enter with a debt of
$100,000,000. Now, sir, I do not propose we should deal niggardly with
Newfoundland. I admit she is entitled to a much larger amount than the
Provinces now in the Dominion. In addition to the debt with which the
Provinces now in the Dominion entered it a debt has been incurred on behalf of the
Intercolonial Railroad, and the faith of the
Dominion is pledged to the enlargement and deepening of the canals.
(Hear, hear.) The cost of these works must be considered a part of the debt
of the Do
664
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
minion, and Newfoundland so far, is entitled to have an equivalent
allowed her. The Minister of Militia and the Minister of Finance have spoken of
the large amount of revenue collected in
Newfoundland—being nearly five dollars
per
capita. How much of this is collected on breadstuffs that will pay
nothing after Confederation? Newfoundland imports nearly everything
she consumes. Every thing imported pays a high duty and if that
intercolonial trade springs up of which the Minister of Finance has spoken,
the revenue collected there after the union must greatly
diminish. (Hear, hear.) Now it was the bounden duty of the Minister of Finance,
in coming down to the House to show what amount of
revenue would be collected there under the Canadian tariff. He
has told us Newfoundland imports largely, fiour, beef, butter and
biscuits, which in future she will purchase from Ontario; that she
purchases a large quantity of woolen goods, and these she will buy from the
Canadian manufacturers. Well, sir, admit this and what
follows? Why, that upon a large portion of her imports, upon which now a
duty is paid, no duty in future will be collected, and by so
much the revenue of Newfoundland is diminished. (Hear, hear.) What
of that, asks the Minister of Militia, if the people of Ontario find a
market for their breadstuffs? They can afford to pay. Well, sir, I
confess this is a new doctrine in political economy. There is to be no duty
on breadstuffs. If the people of Newfoundland can buy flour
for less in Boston than in Montreal they will buy in Boston. They will buy
where they can buy cheapest; there is to be no restriction. Now, who
does that benefit; is it not the people of Newfoundland? The doctrine
of economists is that restrictions on trade increases prices to the
consumer. The removal of such, then, must benefit Newfoundland. Why then should
we, of all the world, be compelled to pay ten
or fifteen per cent, for the privilege of trading? (Hear, hear.) My
honorable friend from West Durham has conclusively shown that we must pay,
under the proposed system to Newfoundland an amount
largely in excess of what we receive; and as yet nothing has been said to
justify such a proceeding that will bear a moment[']s examination. As to
the trade in coarse woollen goods being diverted to Canada. I believe that will
prove entirely illusory and for reason that I
shall not at this moment discuss. I shall ask the committee for a
short time to consider the effect of the fifth resolution. It
is proposed to assume the Crown Lands of Newfoundland, which at present
yield a revenue of one half the cost of management, and pay
$150,000 a year for the privilege. This, it is said, was agreed upon
at the Quebec Convention. Be it so. It is not the less a monstrous
proposition. (Hear, hear.) No one believes the land valuable. Why then
is this done? Why, sir, to deceive the people. To pretend to have received
value for this $150,000 a year when no value has been received. Let
gentlemen be manly in this matter. Let them have the courage to do
openly what they propose to do covertly. Let them give the true reason
for what they do instead of using this matter of the Crown Lands, and
they will not add moral cowardice to other wrongs. If the lands of
Newfoundland were worth the money, it would still be an objectionable acquisition.
Why should we hold and control lands in one
Province? (Hear, hear.) Suppose them fit for settlement what would we
be obliged to do? Why, sir, we would seek to encourage emigration, not to
the whole Dominion, but Newfoundland. We would in the
interest of Newfoundland become the rival of all the other Provinces. We
would make free grants there to actual settlers. We would establish a homestead
law. We would be at the expense of surveying, building
roads and constructing bridges, at the expense of the Dominion, and pay Newfoundland
$150,000 a year for the privilege?
(Cheers.) There are numberless difficulties connected with such an
arrangement apart from its monetary features that I shall
at a future stage consider. We are told by the honorable President of the
Council we must take a broad view of the question. It is unworthy this
great Dominion treat this as a matter of money. Sir, I was pleased to hear
such a patriotic sentiment from the President of the Council. I
assume, I think I am justified in assuming, that he is about to take a new
view of the Nova Scotia subsidy. I hope he has learned to take a broad
view of that question and that he will not ask us to buy her
good will. (Hear, hear.) I supposed, sir, he had importuned the Government
for more money; that he very nearly had Nova Scotia into civil war for
more money, that he asked for repeal, because Nova Scotia did not get more
money; that he deserted the Repeal party for more money; that he
entered the Cabinet for more money. (Cheers.) Well, sir, I am pleased
he deprecates this way of viewing great questions of state, and I hope we
may be permitted to assume this to be a withdrawal of Nova Scotia
pretensions. (No, no from Ministers) I, sir, am ready to deal
generously with Newfoundland, but I wish to deal honestly with the people of
Canada. I wish that they shall know the whole truth.
666 COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
It is not by dishonest concealment that we can
retain their respect. At the end of this century Newfoundland will still receive her
subsidy of 80 cents a head; Ontario will then receive less than 30 cents. Newfoundland
judges
and Newfoundland custom house officers are
receiving less than ours. As soon as they enter
the Union they will demand an increase.
(Hear, hear.) The Union to be lasting must be
mutually beneficial, and while I am most anxious to do to the people of Newfoundland
what will be fair to them, I will never consent to do a lasting injustice to every
other
portion of the Union. As yet the Ministry have
not made out their case. (Cheers.)
Mr. Rymal said, that in considering these resolutions,
it might be well to glance back at the past, and when he remembered all that
had been predicted of Confederation, he was forced to conclude that it
was not proving all that its ardent admirers had expected. Indeed, he
feared that the worst predictions made by those who then opposed it, would
be fulfilled. The House should therefore be careful as to the
admission of new Provinces, like Newfoundland, into the Union; they would be
new partners in the firm, and it would be well to scan closely what
they will bring in as assets, and what they will take out. (Hear,
hear.) The British America Act placed the subsidies to be paid to Ontario
and Quebec at 80c. per head for all time to come, but the
amount to be paid Nova Scotia and New Brunswick was to augment until their
population increased to 400,000 souls; and besides all
this the special subsidies gave 5c. per head to Ontario, 6c. Quebec, 18c.
Nova Scotia, 44c. to New Brunswick, and now the special
subsidy to Newfoundland would be about 30c. per head! (Hear, hear.) This was
a very unequal arrangement, and it might be well to enquire what
Ontario loses under this system. The subsidy to Nova Scotia would go
on increasing for 9 years, which time would elapse before her population
amounted to 400,000; that of New Brunswick would augment for
15 years, and he believed the sun would never rise on the day that
Newfoundland would reach a population of 400,000.(Laughter.) He then showed that,
counting the increase in the population
of Ontario, for which no subsidy is allowed, that Province lost the
first year of Confederation, $416,000, will lose during the second year,
$499,000, and so on until the amount would swell to
$748,000 in the fifth year. But this was not all they were defrauded of. On
the 5th year the people not receiving subsidy in Ontario would pay
about $2,000,000 to the revenue, whilst at the same time it would take
several years to get rid of New Brunswick, and as for the
Newfoundlanders, we would never, in this world, get rid of them. (Laughter.)
His hon. friend, the Minister of War, had often spoken of the
different elements which would make Canada a great nation—the commercial,
agricultural and maritime. He had laid great stress on the latter
element. But he (Mr. R.) did not believe from the way things were
being managed, that the Dominion was about to become the first power in the
world; he did not think they were about to play the most prominent
part among nations. (Laughter) He was opposed to the resolution before the
Chair, because we were asked to pay for Newfoundland an extravagant
price. It would not pay us to admit that Province on such terms when
our finances were in their present condition. The Finance Minister had to
request that no grants should be asked by Ontario members from the
Government, the exchequer was so empty, and although he liked our
Eastern allies, he was not prepared to allow them more than terms of
equality. As an Upper Canadian he was not willing that the interests
of that section should be sacrificed. There was the Intercolonial Railway; of the
thirty millions required to build that lien,
Ontario would pay one half itself, yet not one solitary dollar would be
spent within 400 miles of its border. (Hear, hear.) Now, we were asked
to give $150,000 a year, for all time to come, for the lands of Newfoundland, which
sum was equal to an expenditure of
$3,000,000 for them. The Government which could make such a proposition to
the House did not, he considered, possess an undue share of modesty.
(Laughter and applause.) He thought the great leader of Upper
Canada (Sir John A. Macdonald) had forgotten his duty at the Quebec
Conference on this matter.
668 COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
Mr. Rymal—He would admit George Brown controlled Upper
Canada then, but at the same time he was acting under the Knight of
Kingston. (Hear, hear.) He deprecated departures from the Quebec agreement.
The Member for Cumberland (Dr. Tupper) had spoken last session of that
agreement being quite fair and just to Nova Scotia, and that it would
only be opposed by demagogues like the member for Hants. (Laughter.) The
past records of the latter gentleman had secured him a place in his
(the speaker[']s) heart, and he thought last session Mr. Howe had been
animated by a love for his country. But what would he say now? (laughter.)
He would not hurl a shaft between the joints of his harness, as he was
made familiar with Mr. Howe[']s name and doings at his father[']s fireside during
dark days in Colonial history; but he must,
nevertheless, say that last year he thought that gentleman did not object so
much to Confederation on acount of financial considerations as in
consequence of the liabilities of his country being rather many.
But when he secured better terms, he had changed his position to a
supporter of union, and he (Mr. R.) was delighted with the change, but
particularly on his friend[']s own account. (Laughter.) We should consider
where all these concessions were landing us. Our debt was getting
oppressive. All the inventions of the Minister of Finance were unavailing to
meet our necessities, and yet, day after day the Government offered
fresh schemes of expenditure. Financial ruin could not be averted by
any country beyond a certain line, and if ruin came to the Dominion he
believed it would be financial. If we went on trying to walk before we
could stand, to trot before we could walk, and race before we could trot,
we would never become a consolidated and great people. (Hear, hear.)
Poverty generally fails to command respect and if by extravagance the Dominion became
poverty-stricken, we would fail to command the
respect of our neighbours. Mr. Rymal went on to say that he had
proposed calling this his Financial statement, (laughter) having a tendency
to figures. He did not think the figures he had given could be
contradicted—even Mr. Rose, or his chief assistant, could not show them to
be wrong. He had taken a fair basis, and if injustice had been
suffered by Ontario, and also by Quebec to some extent, why seek more
eastern allies to draw the last drop of blood from us? The Member for
Cornwall (Sandfield Macdonald) had given his views of Confederation
before it was carried. He would read a short extract from his speech.
Speaking of the Coalition Government of that day, that gentleman prophesied
they would
use the name of the Queen to carry their point, they would stigmatize as
traitors all who opposed them, and after carrying their point in
England, would probably come back with high-sounding titles. (Laughter.) It
is as true as if the Prophet Jeremiah had uttered it. (Roars of
laughter.) The Hon. Premier of Ontario had lately been canonized as a saint
—whether he deserved that title or not, in the prediction he had read,
that gentleman had certainly proved himself a true prophet.
(Laughter.) A great deal had been said about Confederation allaying
sectional difficulties, but he feared these difficulties were being
extended. There was, in some quarters, too strong a liking for the loaves
and fishes—too strong a desire to bring in the grab game. (Laughter.)
The cow which gave the milk would be often sought for. The Minister of
Justice knew which Province was the cow. He would soon know who were the
suckers. (Much laughter.) The speaker then said he would not give the
Member for Cornwall all the credit, but would quote from another
speech made when Confederation was before the Canadian Parliament—that was
his own. (Hear, hear) This quotation showed the speaker had opposed
Confederation at that time because they had no right to change the
Constitution, because he wanted the question referred to the
people, because it discarded an Elective Legislative Council, and
because he believed it would not heal our sectional difficulties. He
thought he then struck the nail on the head, and that the heavy
expenditure entailed upon the country would not be made up by corresponding
advantages. He feared Ontario would suffer just as new partners were
taken in, and that that Province would not have one but several small
Provinces clinging to her skirts. Mr. Rymal resumed his seat admidst
applause.
Mr. Blake replied to some of the remarks
made during the debate. He said that the Finance Minister declined to
say what the result of this arrangement would be on the income of the
country. Although the hon. gentleman might quite possibly come to a
conclusion, the hon. gentleman had not dealt with that question, simply
because he was afraid the result would be too alarming. There could,
indeed, be no doubt but the statement of the member for Westmorland
was the correct one, and that was that the Colony would cost us a quarter of
a million. At present and for years past the Colony did not pay its
expenses. Clearly it would be less able to meet an enlarged expenditure, and
hence there must be a reduction in these expenses. He
maintained that in the present
670
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869 condition of the country, before being
generous it was necessary to see that we were just.
(Hear.) As to the proposition that we ought not to ask for details lest it
might embarrass the delegates in Newfoundland, he implored the House
to adopt no such proposition, to allow the people of Newfoundland to see
this matter in all its details, and to prevent as far as possible any
such adverse understanding as occurred in Nova Scotia. (Cheers.)
It was argued by the Minister of Militia that he (Mr. Blake) was bound
by the resolutions of the Quebec Conference, and that these favoured
the present scheme; but he denied the proposition. He denied that at this
distance of time any one was bound by these Quebec
resolutions, and even if it were otherwise, still in many
important particulars the present terms varied widely from the Quebec Resolutions.
(Hear, hear.) It was observed, as
had been argued by the Finance Minister, that the House should confine itself to
discussing the resolutions without going into
details. How the hon. gentleman could expect the House to come to a general
conclusion without going into details passed his (Mr. Blake[']s)
comprehension.
Hon. Mr. Howe said that Newfoundland had hitherto been
able to carry on her government on her own resources, and without
any help from abroad. Therefore she must have considerable
capabilities, and he believed if she did not join the
Confederation, she could continue as she had been; but the other
Provinces wanted her for reasons of State. No one would deprecate more than
himself the old rivalries between East and West, and he hoped such a
state of things would not be perpetuated in the New Dominion. Some twenty millions
of dollars were about being expended in
connection with the Intercolonial Railway, and the West would have to
supply the breadstuffs and other provisions required for the labourers on
this work. Already under Confederation the Lower Provinces
had been large purchasers of the flour of Ontario, and Newfoundland
would henceforth do the same. The people of Newfoundland would buy the
timber of Canada, and build ships, and thus engage in a new and
profitable branch of industry. It was hardly worth while now, under the
circumstances, to bring up such objections as he had
heard during the debate advanced from the opposite side of the House.
Mr. D. A. Macdonald thought we were asked to give too
much to this island. This was more especially the case in the matter
of $150,000 a year proposed to be given for
the land; and no such terms would, he hoped, be concluded with Newfoundland.
Mr. Killam seriously believed that if Newfoundland had to join the fresh-water Legislature of
the
Dominion, she would soon be tired of it, and long for a return to her
saltwater experience, even though it were accompanied with small incomes.
Mr. Mackenzie said he was glad to congratulate the House on adding another to the Confederated
Provinces. He
thought it to the advantage of all the Provinces that the Union should
be consummated at as early a day as possible, based on such terms as would
not occasion heart-burnings hereafter, and he could not but
congratulate the House and the President of the Council himself in being in
the right way. Some of the arguments advanced required a
little attention, and to these he would address himself for a few
moments. The Minister of Militia seemed to think that the resolutions of the
Quebec Conference were binding for all time to come, and
that there should be no departure from them. He (Mr. Mackenzie) was quite
willing to coincide in that argument if the honourable gentleman made these resolutions
binding all round. (Hear, hear.)
While demanding that he should be placed in the position of
obeying strictly these resolutions, the Minister of Militia was himself
disobeying them by the very resolutions before the House.
(Hear, and cheers.) There could be nothing more illogical than the
honourable gentleman[']s proposition. Did he imagine that honourable
gentlemen were merely to accept the dicta of the Ministry of the day, and
that every argument was to be put down by a reference to something
which happened years ago. (Hear.) He could assure the Minister of
Militia that he would take what course he thought best with those Quebec
resolutions. (Hear.) Some fallacious arguments had been advanced
during the debate to which the honourable gentleman (Mr. Mackenzie) next
drew attention. It had been urged that the market to be opened in this
island would be a great benefit to Ontario. He was not disposed to underrate the
advantages to the Provinces or the Dominion arising
from the opening of this market; but he might say that he did not
anticipate that the result of the Union would be to advance the interests
of the agricultural portion of the Dominion one whit; but rather the
contrary. Again, Canada affords but a poor market for Newfoundland produce, which
either goes to Europe or South America,
or the United States. So far as the flour argument was concerned,
672
COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
he did not see that the country would benefit one farthing from the
abolition of the duty on flour in Newfoundland; but, as had been
stated, the reverse. (Hear, hear.) Hon. gentlemen seemed to take
it for granted that Ontario and Quebec were at a loss for a
market. Such he would assure them was not the case. In grain, what
they needed a market for was coarse grains, and these were precisely the
articles not wanted in Newfoundland. Again, the Finance Minister
argued that our woollen manufacturers would get a market in this
island, but his (Mr. Mackenzie[']s) impression was that the bulk of these
goods would be put on the market by those having an interest
in a return cargo from England. The hon. gentleman indicated that on
concurrence he would indicate his views on some matters
connected with the resolutions, which he would not touch till then. At
present he would merely say that, so far as he could do so
conscientiously, he would aid in accomplishing the Union, but hold
himself as a free agent in that matter, allowing himself to be bound
by no conditions whatever. Having replied at some length to the member for Westmorland,
and argued that New Brunswick had no
reason for complaint as to being unfairly dealt with in the arrangements under Confederation,
the hon. gentleman
closed by expressing his regret that, in debating this subject, the House
had not been in possession of full detailed information respecting the Colony about
to be annexed.
Hon. Mr. Rose referred to the tables of exports from
Newfoundland, to show that the amount of fish now exported to us was insignificant,
and there was therefore no foundation
for the argument of the member for Lambton, with reference to return
freights.
Hon. Mr. Tupper expressed his gratification at this
further step towards the consummation of the great scheme which originated
at the Quebec Conference. He took issue with the member for West
Durham, when that hon. gentleman asserted that the House was not in
any way bound by the terms agreed to at the Quebec Conference with regard to
Newfoundland. These terms had received the approval of the people throughout the Dominion,
and the terms now submitted
with reference to Newfoundland were substantially the same as those
agreed to by the Conference. The action of the Conference was endorsed by
the people, when the Ministry, at the subsequent election, were
sustained by a great majority, and, as part of the scheme so approved, it
was agreed that the Dominion should assume
the lands and mines of Newfoundland paying
a certain sum therefor: it was not now open
to this House to go back from that arrangement. The reason why this arrangement was
made was that Newfoundland had no sources
of local revenue, and it became necessary to
make special provision in this way for its local
services. He believed the mineral wealth of
that Island was very great and only wanted
the application of capital to be profitably
developed. Suppose it was possible to drive
a harder bargain with the gentleman representing Newfoundland, he did not think it
was desirable to do so, as it was very important that they should come into the Union
satisfied with the future opening up to them.
The member for Lambton had spoken of this
matter as a marriage. If so, if we were about
to make a matrimonial arrangement with this
fair bride of the ocean, we should not haggle
about the pin-money. He regretted to find the
strong Province of Ontario presenting the
View it had presented tonight. He thought it
could afford to take a more generous course.
Gentlemen from all the other Provinces had,
without hesitation, declared their willingness
to vote what was necessary to enlarge our
borders in the West by paying £300,000 for
the rights of the Hudson[']s Bay Company, and
whatever might be required to open up the
North West. The gentlemen from Ontario
should act in like spirit with regard to completing the Confederation on its eastern
borders.
Sir John A. Macdonald suggested that as notice had been
given of amendments, further discussion should be taken in concurrence tomorrow,
and that the resolution should now be allowed to go
through Committee.
Mr. Mackenzie thought it would be too soon to ask
concurrence to-morrow. The resolutions as to the other Provinces could be
proceeded with.
Mr. Mackenzie—There are plenty of other Government
measures you might interject- the Banking scheme for instance. (Laughter.)
674 COMMONS DEBATES
June 8, 1869
Mr. Blake urged that as amendments were to be proposed,
it was well that they should not be proposed and proceeded with hastily.
Sir John A. Macdonald, in deference to the views of
hon. gentlemen opposite, consented to defer concurrence till Thursday. This,
in his view, would also involve the postponement of the resolutions as
to the other Provinces. He would therefore propose to go on tomorrow with the Insolvency
Bill, and the Criminal Procedure Bill.
The resolutions were then adopted and reported by the Committee.
The House adjourned at 12.20.
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