The Speaker took the chair at three o'clock.
SUPERANNUATION
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks moved the reception of the report of the Committee on certain
resolutions providing for the superannuation
of persons employed in the Civil Service, and
as officers of the Legislature.
The first two resolutions were read without
discussion.
On the third resolution,
Mr. Joly moved an amendment with a view
of deduction 2 per cent instead of, as in the
resolutions, 4 per cent, from the salaries of
employees.
The amendment was put to a vote and lost.
Yeas 49; nays 80; and the resolution was
carried.
Yeas—Messrs. Béchard, Benoit, Blanchet,
Bourassa, Brousseau, Carmichael, Cayley,
Chamberlin, Cheval, Currier, Daoust, Forbes,
Fortier, Grant, Gray, Hagar, Holmes, Holton,
Huot, Hurdon, Joly, Kempt, Kierzkowski,
Lacerte, Langlois, Le Vesconte, Macdonald
(Glengarry), McDonald (Lunenburg), MacFarlane, Magill, McCarthy, McDougall (Renfrew),
McMonies, Morrison (Niagara), Oliver, Pelletier, Pouliot, Pozer, Ross (Champlain),
Ross
(Victoria, N.S.), Ross (Wellington, C.R.),
Rymal, Savary, Stirton, Thompson (Ontario),
Tremblay, Whitehead, Workman, and Wright
(Ottawa County).—49.
1355
Nays—Messrs. Archibald, Ault, Beaubien,
Bellerose, Bodwell, Bowell, Bowman, Bown,
Brown, Burpee, Burton, Caldwell, Cameron
(Huron), Campbell, Carling, Caron, Cartier
(Sir George-É), Chauveau, Connell, Costigan,
Coupal, Dobbie, Drew, Dufresne, Dunkin,
Fortin, Gaucher, Gaudet, Geoffrion, Gendron,
Gibbs, Heath, Hincks (Sir F.), Howe, Hutchison, Jones (Leeds and Grenville), Keeler,
Langevin, Lawson, Macdonald (Sir John A.),
McDonald (Middlesex West), Mackenzie,
Masson (Soulanges), Masson (Terrebonne),
McCallum, McConkey, McDougall (Lanark),
McDougall (Trois-Rivières), McKeagney,
McMillan, Merritt, Mills, Morison (Victoria
North), Morris, Munroe, O'Connor, Pinsonneault, Read, Redford, Renaud, Robitaille,
Ross
(Dundas), Ross (Prince Edward), Ryan
(King's, N.B.), Ryan (Montreal West), Scatcherd, Scriver, Shanly, Snider, Stephenson,
Thompson (Haldimand), Tilley, Tupper, Wallace, Walsh, Wells, White, Willson, Wright
(York, Ontario, W.R.), and Young—80.
The remaining resolutions were carried
without discussion.
PROVINCE OF MANITOBA
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald moved the
second reading of the Bill intituled: "An Act to
amend and continue the Act 32 and 33 Victoria,
chapter 3; and to establish and provide for the
Government of the Province of Manitoba."
Mr. Mackenzie said it was evident that if the
hon. Minister of Justice proceeded with the
second reading of the Bill there would be a
debate on it. He had not read the Bill yet
himself, and he ventured to say that not half a
dozen members in the House had read it. They
were, therefore, unprepared to discuss it that
night. He confessed frankly that he was not
ready to enter into a debate on the subject till
he had read the Bill.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said he was
about to preface his remarks by saying that as
the Bill had not been more than an hour in the
hands of the members he did not wish to press
a discussion. He merely desired to bring it up
for the purpose of stating very shortly in what
respects the measure now in the hands of the
1356 COMMONS DEBATES May 4, 1870
members differed from the one produced at the
first reading. The first change in the Bill, he
would now say, was the boundary proposed for
the new Province. It would be remembered
that the boundary from east to west commenced at 96 degrees and extended to 98
degrees 15 minutes. They desired to change the
boundary, allowing it to run to the meridian, 99
degrees west. At the same time power would be
held to increase the boundaries of the Province
towards the west. The reason why the Government introducted the Bill with the former
limitations, and leaving especially the settlement
of Portage la Prairie, concerning which a good
deal of remark had been made, was, that the
Government had reason to believe that the
people of Portage la Prairie were averse to
being connected with the people of Red River.
It was known to all that two years ago they
were in pacific but still open resistance to
authorities at Fort Garry. Two years ago they
established a Republic known as the Republic
of Manitoba, not the Province of Manitoba.
They preferred a separation so as to govern
themselves rather than to be connected with
the government then existing at Fort Garry. In
addition to that they were informed that the
people at Portage la Prairie would prefer remaining out of the New Province to coming
into it. The Government had made considerable enquiries since that time and had been
told that it would be for the interests of those
people to come into the Province of Manitoba.
Now that it was proposed to organize a regular
Government in the Settlement, the Government understood that although originally it
was the desire of those people to stand alone,
they preferred now to come into the Province.
Under the altered circumstances, and owing to
the representations of the Rev. Mr. Fletcher,
the Government had altered the original Bill so
as to include Portage la Prairie in the new
Province. At the same time Mr. Fletcher was
fair enough to state that individually he would
prefer to have the Settlement remain outside
it. Under these circumstances, and more especially as it was not only insinuated,
but asserted that the fact of the western line of Manitoba
being placed there, it had been done for the
purpose of making Manitoba a kind of French-
Canadian reserve, the Government altered that
portion of the Bill, which fixed the western
boundary at 98 degrees, 15 minutes, with the
power of extending westward hereafter, in the
meantime extending the boundary to 99
degrees, which would bring in Portage la Prairie and all the settlements, in fact,
which existed in that direction.
1357
Hon. Mr. Dorion—Does that include the settlers on River Blanche, and the two or three
settlements beyond that?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—Yes; all the
settlements, including Portage la Prairie and
the White Mud River Settlement. He ought to
say that the fixing of the line as it had been at
first, did not originate with the Franco-
Canadians; it did not come from priestly influence; it did not come to them by any
way
which had been insinuated—but came from
information which they had received, and they
acted accordingly. He had great pleasure in
stating the fact. The eastern boundary would
remain the same as in the former Bill, at 96
degrees. He would make a few remarks on this
point, and the House would at once see the
reason why they did not invite discussion on it.
The line was fixed at 96 degrees, because a
large body of the Sioux Indians, who were
friendly of the Canadian Government, but
opposed to the Red River authorities, dwelt to
the east of that line and to hand them over to
the new Province would not tend to promote
friendly feelings towards the Canadian Government, or give a peaceful passage to the
troops through their country. If those Indians
were handed over without any treaty being
made with them, or without consulting their
rights or wishes, they might cut off, or seriously interfere with, communication between
the
head of Lake Superior and Fort Garry. For that
reason they fixed the eastern boundary at the
96th meridian. That was the only change made,
even with respect to boundary. The consequences of the increase of the population
in the
new Province necessitated a change in the
amount of the debt with which the new Province should come into the Dominion, and
this
would be increased by the number of the population added since the Bill had been introduced.
The original proposition was that the
number of inhabitants should be estimated at
15,000. It was now based on a supposed population of 17,000. The amount of debt at
which
they would be allowed to come into the Dominion was calculated on that population
of 15,000,
and so with regard to the subsidy, they commence with a subsidy of 80c per head on
the
population of 17,000, which would be held to be
the population of the Province until the decennial census of 1881. The Government
believed
17,000 was a very liberal estimate of the
population.
1358 COMMONS DEBATES May 4, 1870
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—The population will not be affected in any way by the
census to be taken next year. Then on the same
principle as they had added 1,000 to the
number of inhabitants of the proposed Province, a proportion of whom were half-breeds,
they proposed to add 200,000 acres more,
increasing the area from 1,200,000 acres to
1,400,000 to provide for the families of half-
breeds living in the country. Now a good deal
of discussion took place on the measure, in
which it was evident some apprehension had
arisen with respect to the pecuniary arrangements and with respect to the disposal
of lands.
Those apprehensions were very natural, inasmuch as the Bill was not in the hands of
hon.
gentlemen, and they could only gather the
intentions of the Government from the statements he had made at the time he had introduced
the Bill. In order that the House might
at once see the arrangements that had been
made with respect to land, he would read the
clauses relating to it, calling the attention of
the House to them. He would say, however,
that those clauses must be introduced by resolution, and would not be considered as
portions
of the Bill until adopted in Committee. The
22nd clause implied that the Province should
be entitled to come in and receive interest at
the rate of five per cent per annum on the sum
of $472,000 being at the same rate as was
allowed Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and
Newfoundland. The 23rd clause provided that
the sum of $30,000 should be paid yearly for the
support of the Government, and be increased
every decennial census till the population
should reach 400,000 souls. The 25th clause provided that the Customs duties now in
force in
Rupert's Land should be continued for three
years after the passage of this Act. The rate
was 4 per cent
ad valorem on all imports with
the exception of spirits and coal, on which
there was a duty amounting almost to prohibition. The Government had decided on this
in
consequence of the remoteness of the Settlement from the great markets of supply,
goods
being supplied by way of York Factory or
through the United States,
via St. Paul's, and
then when the goods reached the consumers
they cost ruinous prices. They would not have
the advantage of improved intercourse with
Canada for at least three years, and it was
deemed expedient that they should not commence with the Government of that country
by
providing that the price of the necessaries of
life should be increased as a very first consequence of their becoming a portion of
the
Dominion. Therefore the House would agree
that it was a wise provision that the duty
which existed in Canada should not be prema
1359
turely imposed upon the people of the new
Province. Under the charter of the Hudson's
Bay Company all the lands whatever that
might be contained in the country covered by
that charter were vested in fee simple in the
Company. Under the arrangements by which
the country was transferred to the Dominion,
those lands and all the rights of the Hudson's
Bay Co. in those lands would become part of
the Dominion of Canada. For the reasons
which he gave when he first introduced the
measure, it had not been thought well that the
same principle should be adopted in the new
Territory as had been adopted in the other
Provinces, of handing over all the lands to the
Local Legislature. They were in the present
case retained by the Dominion. The 26th clause
provided that all ungranted or waste lands in
the Province shall be free, and, after the date
of the said transfer, vested in the Crown and
administered by the Government of Canada
for purposes of the Dominion, subject to and
except so far as the same may be affected by
the conditions and stipulations contained in
the agreement for the surrender of Rupert's
Land by the Hudson's Bay Company to Her
Majesty. Those clauses referred to the land for
the half-breeds, and go toward extinguishing
the Indian title. If those half—breeds were not
pure-blooded Indians, they were their descendants. There were very few full-blooded
Indians
now remaining, and there would not be any
pecuniary difficulty in meeting their claims.
Those half-breeds had a strong claim to the
lands, in consequence of their extraction, as
well as from being settlers. The Government
therefore proposed for the purpose of settling
those claims, this reserve of 1,400,000 acres. The
clause provided that the lands should be regulated under Orders in Council by the
Governor
General, acting through the Lieutenant Governor, who should select such lots or tracts
in
such parts of the Province as he might deem
expedient to the extent aforesaid, and divide
the same among the children of half-breeds—
heads of families. No land would be reserved
for the benefit of white speculators, the land
being only given for the actual purpose of settlement. The conditions had to be made
in that
Parliament who would show that care and anxiety for the interest of those tribes which
would prevent that liberal and just appropriation from being abused. The next clause
provided for quieting the titles and assuring the
settlers in the Province the peaceable possession of the lands now held by them. The
sections were—lst. All grants of land in freehold
made by the Hudson's Bay Company prior to
the transfer to Canada, shall, if required by the
owner, be confirmed by grant from the Crown.
2nd. All grants of estates less than freehold in
land made by the Hudson's Bay Company prior
1360 COMMONS DEBATES May 4, 1870
to the transfer to Canada shall, if required by
the owner, be converted into an estate in freehold by grant from the Crown. 3rd. All
titles by
occupancy with the sanction and under license
and authority of the Hudson's Bay Company
prior to the transfer to Canada of land in that
part of the Province in which Indian Titles
have been extinguished, shall, if required by
the owner, be converted into an estate in freehold by grant from the Crown. 4th. All
persons
in peaceable possession of tracts of land at the
time of the said transfer in those parts of the
Province in which the Indian title has not been
extinguished, shall have the right of preemption of the same on such terms and conditions
as may be determined on by the Governor
in Council. 5th. The Lieutenant Governor is
hereby authorized under regulations to be
made from time to time, by the Governor General in Council, to make all such provisions
for
ascertaining and adjusting on fair and equitable terms the rights of common and rights
of
cutting hay, held and enjoyed by settlers in the
Province, and for the commutation of the same
by grants of land from the Crown. It had been
said that this section was illogical because the
question of the title of the Hudson's Bay Company was disputed. The people wished
to have
the matter set at rest, and it was therefore
proposed to allow their grants to be confirmed
by the Crown if they desired it. The second
section was proposed under the view that it
was advisable to grant this privilege, always
under the condition that there should be actual
settlement. A question had been put under the
next section as to whether it gave large tracts
of land to existing large corporations. He and
his colleagues had made enquiries and found
that there were not such large grants nor large
corporations existing there. The policy of the
Hudson's Bay Company had been to grant a lot
of 100 acres for churches and buildings to all
denominations. The Seminary of St. Boniface
had no right or claim to the grant of 5 square
miles alluded to, but the first bishop had, it
was said, received a grant from Lord Selkirk,
but that the claim had never been made. But
the clause referred only to the title held by
occupancy with the sanction and under the
license and authority of the Hudson's Bay
Company. This question of a grant to the seminary was not touched by the clause, and
if a
claim was brought forward, it would have to be
decided in a Court of Law. Bishop Taché had
never said anything about it, and no attempt
had ever been made to force an advantage from
the Government for the benefit of the Roman
Catholic Church, (hear). With regard to the
fourth class, they were merely squatters; but
they ought to be protected and have the right
of preemption of the same on such terms and
conditions as might be determined by the Governor General in Council.
1361
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said the
experience of the Province of Canada would
point out how that was to be done. There
would be the same system and process as had
prevailed in those Provinces.
Hon. Mr. Wood said they must come to a
Court to decide that question.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said that
would be the Council of the Governor General.
It was clear that he must have an officer under
his control, the Lieutenant Governor, who
would be acting under him. It would be under
the direction of the Government of Canada.
The 5th section affected the white settlers,
principally as to the rights of common and of
cutting hay. This had been enjoyed by the
settlers; and although when the country was
more settled, it was clear that those rights
would disappear, it would be a great injustice
and inconvenience to take away the right at
present. It was a very difficult question to
decide; and the clause, he thought, was the
only clear way of solving the difficulty. Of
course there would be many cases which could
only be decided by an official present at the
spot. The 29th clause was a point of debate. It
would be hard to require settlers to come to
Ottawa to obtain grants of land; and the clause
was to enable a remedy to be found for this
difficulty. He wished to bring the Bill thus
simply before the House —and would move its
second reading.
Mr. Mackenzie did not intend to discuss the
Bill, and understood that the hon. gentleman's
intention in introducing the Bill was merely to
indicate his reasons for changing its provisions
from those as originally introduced. He was
glad that the hon. gentlemen had been compelled by the expression of the House to
change the western boundary of the Province
so as to embrace the settlements that he had
previously deliberately excluded. What his
motives were for that exclusion he (Mr. Mackenzie) could not say, but circumstantial
evidence showed strongly that they were exclud
1362 COMMONS DEBATES May 4, 1870
ed for the reasons which had been given by
him. The boundary had so far been changed in
the right direction; but it was not yet at all that
in his opinion it ought to be in the interest of
the people of the Province. The Bill was not
satisfactory with regard to its provisions as to
Lands, Local Government, etc., which were yet
to be discussed. If those who proposed to discuss the Bill would refer to the treaty
concluded in London, they would find the titles presented by the Hudson's Bay Company
to be
maintained were only to be those granted up to
the 8th March, 1869, but the Bill now proposed
to affirm them up to the passing of this Act,
(hear). He could only say that he objected
entirely to allowing the Hudson's Bay Company the right to convey lands from the time
stated in the treaty, and he felt confident that
the House would not recognize titles granted
after that date.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I have been
informed by the best authority, the Governor
of the Hudson's Bay Company, that they have
not granted a single title since the time stipulated, (hear).
Mr. Mackenzie said if that were so it was
better to have it in the Bill, and he should
make an amendment to that effect. The hon.
gentleman could not object to inserting the
date already agreed upon in his Bill. Some
other provisions also conflicted with the terms
of Union agreed upon in the Confederation
Act, and these of course must be modified. He
should attempt to modify it in those clauses in
which the agreements in the Act were applicable to all provinces. The provisions of
the
Bill as brought down concerning land grants,
and confirmation of titles, were also objectionable in another particular. The hon.
gentleman
had said that he had examined into them, and
that there was no kind of claim which could
possibly have been conferred on any ecclesiastical body, except the so-called grant
of Lord
Selkirk, which the Hudson's Bay Company had
repudiated. He said they could not invalidate
that claim, but he (Mr. Mackenzie) thought it
was within their power. He should go more
fully into the question tomorrow. He had
expected that the Government would have
brought down some information with respect
to these matters; but although the House were
told that all the information in possession of
the Government would be laid before the
House, yet it was not done. With regard to
Father Thibault's report, they were told that
some portions of it were suppressed because it
would have been injurious to the public inter
1363
est to have published it. Now, he happened to
have seen some of the members of the House
reading the suppressed portion of the delegates' reports. The Government had it in
type,
and it was apparently distributed to favorites
in the House.
Mr. Mackenzie—I could read it to you, for
some friend sent it to me, (hear, hear, and cries
of "read"). It stated that the hon. member for
Lanark and his friends were to be banished
from the Territory, (hear, hear). If that sentence of banishment was to be pronounced
by
delegates of the Government against any of
their people, the House and country ought to
know it, (hear, hear). He had protested last
night against that kind of legislating in secret,
and he could not admire the spirit of any
Legislature that would submit to it, (cheers).
To ask the House at that late period of the
session to proceed with so important a measure
without any information would not lead them
to a sound conclusion on such important matters as the Land Tenure in that country.
It was
asking too much. The terms of the treaty of
Lord Selkirk and the Hudson's Bay Company
might be found out and considered by one or
two members, from works to be found in the
Library, but the great bulk of the members
would not be able to obtain information unless
Government aided them. He objected to that
treatment because it showed a desire to get this
Bill, which contained so many objectionable
clauses, through without discussion. The
debate yesterday succeeded in obtaining several important emendations to the Bill,
and he
hoped that the same energy directed to other
clauses would greatly amend the general character of the Bill, (hear, hear). He did
not at the
present time intend to discuss its general
provisions.
Hon. Sir George-E. Cartier deprecated the
discussion, of the Bill then. The Government
had no objection to the discussion, but the hon.
gentleman ought not to say that he was not
ready to discuss it and yet do so. The Premier
had stated when introducing the Bill with
regard to Portage la Prairie that it having been
said that people there did not wish to be admitted it would not be done; but that
provision
was made by the Bill for its entrance when
they desired it. Since then the Government had
heard opinions expressed which justified them
in saying positively that the Settlement wished
to be included, and they therefore made the
proposition. With regard to Father Thibault's
report, the Government had not committed the
1364 COMMON DEBATES May 4, 1870
foul and low proceedings ascribed to them by
the hon. member for Lambton. They were able
to do without any such acts. No part of Father
Thibault's report had been suppressed. If the
hon. member had any suggestion to improve
the measure the Government would receive
and consider them and as this taunt that the
Government was slow in its action, he retorted
upon the hon. member by the assertion that he
(Sir George-E. Cartier) was willing to give the
hon. member time to prepare a scheme if he
wished to do so, (laughter). The preparation of
the Bill had been a difficult task.
Hon. Mr. McDougall entirely disagreed with
the doctrine of the Minister of Justice, which
he had propounded several times, that the
information which was withheld from the
House, but which was shown to their own
friends, that it was stolen property. The Minister of Militia attempted to get out
of difficulty
by using appropriate epithets, but he thought
the real question was—did such information
exist, and had the hon. gentleman sufficient
cause to withhold it from the country. The
Minister of Militia had said that nothing had
been suppressed from the report, but he (Hon.
Mr. McDougall) had the
ipsissima verba of the
letter, which was printed at the office of the
Government. Did the hon. gentleman mean to
say that the following was not written by the
Government's Commissioner . . .
St. Boniface, 20th March, 1870.
The Hon. Mr. Howe:
Sir—I am happy to be able to inform you
that the delegates are to leave tomorrow in the
hope of effecting a satisfactory arrangement
with the Canadian Government. To accomplish
this result we have been obliged to use much
caution. I must confess that when we arrived
here I had very slight hopes of success, as
every one then spoke of annexation to the
United States. The report of our proceedings is
sent separately. We have not tried to hurry
through our business, and it is to this, mainly,
that our success is due. As for Mr. McDougall,
neither he nor any of his party will ever be
received into the Territory. The Territory is
now quiet.
(
Hon. Mr. McDougall—Yes, order reigns at
Warsaw. Recollect this was after the murder of
Scott. No reference is made to that.)
And I believe that if Mr. Black were appointed Governor all would be well, for that
gentleman enjoys the esteem of the entire population, French and English. I entertain,
sir, a
confident hope that the Canadian Government
1365
will deal kindly with our poor people, who, I
can assure you, are not ill-disposed.
I have the honour to be, Sir,
Your very humble servant,
J.-B. THIBAULT.
The various statements of the letter were
read amid considerable excitement.
Hon. Mr. McDougall continued—that was
the view taken by the Rev. Commissioner, and
whether it was a correct view or not, it did not
seem to him to be a genuine document, (hear,
hear). It sounded very much as if it came from
the Government. It ought to have been sent
with the other. At all events it was now before
the House and the country.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said he had read it
pretty clearly, and although it was not in a
formal manner before the House, it would
answer all the purposes he intended at all
events, (hear, hear). It was before the House
and country in about the same manner in
which a private circular to the Reform party of
the hon. gentleman was. (Loud laughter.)
Hon. Mr. McDougall—The hon. gentleman
had denied that there was such a circular, and
that no one had a right to discuss it.
Hon. Mr. McDougall—And we have paid for
this too, I expect, (hear). With regard to the
Bill, he sincerely dissented from many of its
provisions. Several important changes had
taken place in the Bill; and although the hon.
gentleman represented the changes as being
small, the lands were previously left under the
control of the Local Government, but now they
were taken charge of by the Government here;
and an important amendment had been made
in regard to the boundary. He would like to see
it extended to the boundaries of Lord Selkirk's
Grant. The hon. gentleman opposite had taunted them with not being able to prepare
a Bill;
but he contended that the Opposition would be
able to draft Bills as well written and as little
liable to be amended next Session of Parliament as were produced from the other side,
(hear). The Bill was stated to have been drawn
up hastily in two or three days; but it was now
some three or four weeks since the delegates
had arrived in town. It appeared that owing to
some remarks from the Opposition side, the
1366 COMMONS DEBATES May 4, 1870
Government had consulted other parties, and
the result of that consultation had been the
modification of the Bill, and some further
modification might be still obtained.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said the
member for North Lanark ought not to have
read the letter when informed that it was
strictly confidential. The letter was not a portion of the report of the Rev. Mr.
Thibault to
the Government, but was merely a letter to the
Secretary of State, and was printed confidentially for the convenience of the Cabinet.
Some
copies were stolen, and the receivers of these
copies were receivers of stolen goods.
Mr. Mills asked if the Government intended
to ask the Imperial confirmation of the power
of this Bill, or whether it would be a tentative
one, which might be withdrawn?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said there was
some doubt in this respect about the appointment of Senators; with regard to other
portions
of the Bill, the course to be adopted will
depend a great deal on the way in which the
Bill passed in Parliament.
Hon. Mr. Wood thought with the exception
of Senators the provisions of the Bill would be
embraced under an Imperial Order in Council.
The debate was then adjourned.
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