The Speaker took the chair at three o'clock.
THE NORTH-WEST
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier presented the
report of Mr. Donald Smith of his mission to
the North-West. He said printed copies would
be presented to the members this afternoon.
Mr. Mackenzie said that the reports of other
gentlemen who were Plenipotentiaries from
the Government to Red River were also to be
brought down. He would ask where were those
reports?—and would remind the Minister of
Militia that he had not stated if the Government were prepared to introduce their
Bill that
night as was promised by the Premier yesterday afternoon. He (Mr. Mackenzie) was beginning
to get tired of the necessity for continually asking questions of the Government about
that matter; and the Opposition would feel
compelled to introduce a Bill themselves, or to
take the matter out of the hands of the Government, who seemed utterly incompetent
to deal
with it or anything else. (Hear, hear.)
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said he ought to
have stated that he expected during the course
of evening to be placed in possession of the
report of Father Thibault, but he could not say
so positively. The desire of the Government
was to use the greatest possible diligence so as
to place in the hands of members all information necessarily required in the discussion
of
the Bill. The Minister of Justice did not state
positively that he would bring it down to-day.
The hon. gentleman and himself had met that
morning, at his (Sir G.-É. Cartier's) own
house, the delegates from Red River.
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said the gentlemen who had been named and discussed and
spoken about in every way and in every kind
of manner in the newspapers—they were the
three delegates—Father Ritchot, Hon. Judge
Black and Mr. Scott.
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said the hon.
member had stated that he knew there were
more, he (Sir G.-É. Cartier) knew there were
more, too, and all the gentlemen who had come
1250 COMMONS DEBATES April 28, 1870
there from Red River had been welcomed, and
all information they could give to the Government had been welcomed. Several of the
members of the Government had met all those gentlemen, and surely those gentlemen
could not
complain they had not been met with that
courtesy which ought to be expected from
civilized people. With regard to the Bill which
the member for Lambton said his party would
introduce, he (Sir G.-É. Cartier) would remark
that every member of that House had a right to
take the initiative in legislation, except with
regard to money matters. If the member for
Lambton thought he ought to take the matter
out of the hands of the Government, let him
bring forward a scheme from his own point of
view. He had that privilege.
Mr. Mackenzie—I know my privileges without being reminded of them by the hon.
gentleman.
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said, the Government were considering a very important
matter, and one surrounded with great difficulties; but the Government intended to
bring in a measure that would meet with the
support of both sides of the House. The measure would be the happiest thing which
any
member had experienced that session. It would
be an end to the whole difficulty.
Mr. Mackenzie said the Minister of Militia
had not yet stated when the measure was to be
brought down. On Tuesday last the Minister of
Justice said it was a matter of hours; but yesterday twenty-four hours had elapsed,
and
to-day forty-eight, and still no measure—the
Government were as unable now as they were
a week ago to say when it would be brought
down.
Hon. Mr. McDougall (Lanark) said he
wished to know whether the House was distinctly to understand the Minister of Militia
to
say that he had had an official interview with
certain gentlemen who had come here claiming
to be delegates from the people of the
North-West?
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said he stated
then what had been stated on Tuesday by the
leader of the Government, that the Government were meeting gentlemen sent from the
North-West. The member for Lanark ought to
be satisfied with that answer. With regard to
the footing on which the delegates stood, that
would be explained when the measure was
brought down.
Hon. Mr. McDougall (Lanark) said that
although the Minister of Militia had not very
explicitly answered his question, yet it was
1251
understood by the House that the Government
had an official communication with those three
gentlemen whose names had been mentioned
in the newspapers. He did not wish to enter
into any debate now, desiring to wait until the
Bill came up; but after that statement the
House would want to know how to deal with it.
The Minister of Militia had stated that the
House would be put in possession of the report
from the Rev. Father Thibault, but there was
another gentleman, Col. de Salaberry, and it
was desirable to know if the House were to be
favoured with his report. There was a very
distinguished gentleman who, from his position had a great deal of influence—whose
power, if exercised, would settle all difficulties,
as he (Hon. Mr. McDougall) had stated before,
and that was the Roman Catholic Bishop, who
held an official position as the representative
of this Government in the North-West, who
had been there some time, and must have
reported to the Government. Was the House to
have his report?
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said that the
report of Father Thibault was the only one he
had received, and that gentleman had made up
a report from both himself and Col. de Salaberry. The Government had no kind of communication
to lay before the House from Bishop
Taché. Every one would be delighted if the
Government were in possession of a document
from that worthy member of the Catholic
Church, but, unfortunately, the Government
had no report from him.
Mr. Bowell asked if the Minister of Militia
was understood to say that those men who
called there saying they were the representatives from the people of Red River had
presented credentials? He supposed that they had
some documentary evidence to show who they
were.
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said he had
stated with regard to the footing on which the
delegates had come, it would be announced
when the Government brought down the Bill.
The matter then dropped.
1274 COMMONS DEBATES APRIL 29, 1870
THE NORTH-WEST
Hon. Mr. McDougall—Before the orders of
the day are put, although I do not see either of
the two Ministers leading the Government
present in their seats, I would like to ask the
Government when the Bill in relation to the
North-West, which has been promised for the
last two or three days, is likely to be submitted
to the House.
Hon. Mr. McDougall—Then, Sir, I will just
take the opportunity of making a remark or
two on this subject. I will call the serious
attention of the hon. gentlemen on the Treasury Benches to the importance of speedy
action in relation to this matter. Sir, those who
have studied the question at all, are well aware
that if an expedition is to be sent to that
country—if this Parliament or country are to
assume the responsibility of sending a force of
the Dominion into that country for the purpose
of enforcing the authority of the Canadian
Government and the Crown, they know, I say,
that it is above all things important that the
force should be on the march at the very earliest possible moment. Now I understand
that
the canals are open and that there is no natural
difficulty to the adoption of that course within
a week or two. Yet it is perfectly evident to my
mind that, if the Government have not decided
upon that subject, if they have not determined
upon the character of the measure to be submitted, or as to the amount of money they
will
ask for the expedition, and the terms on which
it is to be organized, then I say they are derelict in their duty to the country and
the high
authority of the Crown, in not having done so
and submitted it to the decision of this House.
We have had promises, I see by the newspapers, within the last two or three weeks,
that
they would submit their policy within a day or
two, and on one occasion it was promised
within a few hours; but now we were told that
it is not to be submitted till Monday. The
1275
session is rapidly going on, and unless the
Ministry are prepared to submit their policy
immediately, I say it will prove altogether
disastrous to the country, (hear).
Hon. Mr. Howe—I would much prefer that
one or other of the leaders of the House were
present to answer this question. I may say that
the House and country may rest assured that
there has been no want of zeal or of industry
on the part of the Government in dealing with
this question; but the House will see when the
subject is brought before it in its entirety that
there are various and different interests to be
consulted, and the necessity of having perfect
agreement between the Imperial and Dominion
Governments has thrown a great responsibility
on the Cabinet; but these have been dealt with,
and that in such a manner as is compatible
with the best interests of this Dominion,
(hear). I would say also with regard to the
Cabinet, that they have been from the first,
and they are now, so far as I know, united upon
their policy.
Mr. Mackenzie—Of course, I can easily
understand that the hon. gentleman might reasonably ask for delay in this matter until
some
of his colleagues, who are supposed to lead the
Government in this House, should be in their
place, but sir, we have asked day after day, and
we have been promised day after day, that this
matter should be proceeded with, (hear, hear).
We were promised the Bill early in this week,
and on Tuesday night we were promised by the
Minister of Militia, in the absence of the first
Minister, that it would not certainly be later
than the end of this week, (hear, hear). Now,
sir, the House adjourned last night without
any motion having been made to set to-morrow. We are therefore to presume that the
House will not sit to—morrow. This, therefore,
is the last sitting this week, and yet the Bill is
not brought down, and no intimation has been
given by the Government of their policy,
(cheers). They have not made any statements
of the relations existing with the Imperial
Government, (hear, hear). I have seen that
within the last day or two a question was
asked in the Imperial Parliament in reference
to it, and the answer of the Imperial Ministry
was that they were still in communication with
the Dominion Government.
Mr. Mackenzie—Yes. Now, what I complain
of is that this House being within a few days of
its prorogation, this matter seems to be systematically delayed by the Government,
(hear,
hear). I have refrained in consideration of the
public interests from pushing this matter any
1276 COMMONS DEBATES Â
April 29, 1870
faster than I have done, but now it becomes
absolutely necessary that we should wait no
longer, and I now tell the hon. gentleman that
unless we receive some definite indication of
the policy of the Government, that I shall give
notice to-night of a motion to bring it forward
on Monday, (hear).
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks—Of course, it is
perfectly competent for the hon. gentleman to
give notice, but I protest against the assertion
that there have been systematic delays on the
part of the Government, (hear). The hon. gentleman and the House ought to know that
there
is a very grave state of matter existing in the
North-West Territory, and he ought to know
that it is of the greatest importance that the
Government should come down with a measure which will give satisfaction to the people
of
the whole Dominion, (hear). He ought to know
that sending the expedition to which he
referred is a matter of the very greatest gravity, and also the circumstances under
which
that expedition may go, whether it is to be an
expedition of peace, as I sincerely hope and
trust it may be, (cheers). I believe that the
measure which is to be brought down here will
give not only satisfaction to this House and the
country but also to the people of that Territory,
(hear). I say, sir, under these circumstances
the Government will not be provoked by the
taunts of hon. gentlemen opposite to act prematurely, to come down with a measure
without giving the best and fullest consideration
that it is in their power to give to this most
important matter, (hear).
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks—The Government
are not neglecting it; they are giving their
constant attention, I may say, to this question
day by day, and explanations have been going
on. Certainly, I admit that we have been from
day to day in expectation that everything
would be closed, and that we should be able to
bring down and explain our policy at an earlier
moment than we have been able to do, but
what is a day or two compared with having
matters arranged in a satisfactory manner,
(hear). I am happy to know that the members
of the Government are one and all under the
conviction that they will be able to bring down
a solution of the difficulties connected with
this question—that they will be able to come
down with the full co-operation of Her Majesty's Imperial Government, and to obtain
the
full concurrence of this House and the entire
country, (hear).
Mr. Mackenzie—The hon. gentleman will
admit that the Government are bound to fulfil
1277
their promises, and the time has now elapsed.
The latest time that they asked is now up. The
Bill was to be brought down to-day, (hear). I
do not intend to say anything more about that
now, but I rise for the purpose of asking
whether the Government intend to vote the
House to sit to-morrow? (Hear.)
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks—The Government
think that they will facilitate the business of
the country by not asking the House to sit
to-morrow.
Mr. Masson (Soulanges) thought it would
be well for the House to adjourn for a fortnight
or a month to give good time to well consider
the matter. (No! No!) The whole country was
anxious about this North-West question, and
many members on both sides were desirous
that the Government should take time to consider it.
Hon. Mr. Langevin repeated the explanation
in French and said the Government had made
great progress with the Bill, but did not wish to
bring it down till it was quite complete.
Hon. Mr. Holton—There was one point in
the observation of the Finance Minister that
struck me as very important indeed. He
expressed the hope, on the part of the Government, that they would very soon be enabled
to
bring down a measure which would command
the approbation of this House and be in accordance with the views and wishes of the
Imperial
Government. The plain inference from that
observation is that the Administration has not
as yet come to a full understanding with the
Imperial Government as to the measures to be
taken in the North-West matter, (hear, hear). I
think, sir, we are entitled to know whether
that inference is true, (hear, hear). Nothing
should be left to inference in so important a
matter as this. I inferred, and my hon. friends
near me inferred, from the language of the hon.
gentleman that no absolutely final agreement
had yet been come to between the Government
of the Dominion and the Imperial Government
in reference to the North-West matter, (hear,
hear).
Hon. Mr. Dunkin—Of course, in the absence
of the hon. gentlemen who are more particularly in charge of this matter, it is not
right for me
to give an answer to that question; but this I
am fully entitled to say, that the inferences
attempted to be drawn from the words of my
colleague, the Finance Minister, are utterly
unwarranted and unfounded.
1278 COMMONS DEBATES April 29, 1870
Hon. Mr. Dunkin—I have stated nothing to
imply that. When the Bill is brought down, the
whole matter will be fully and satisfactorily
explained.
Hon. Mr. Holton—That may be, but the hon.
gentleman must admit that we are as competent to draw inferences as he is (hear),
and
he will not deny that when a member of the
Administration rises in his place and expresses
the hope that the measure to be brought down
will meet the approval of the Imperial Government, that the inference is plain that
no
arrangement has yet been come to. I think that
there can be no mistake about that.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said the hon. gentleman was confounding his two statements,
one with reference to the measure to be
brought down, and the other with regard to the
expedition. It was impossible to communicate
with the Imperial Government on all the little
details of the Bill. There was not the least
doubt that not the slightest difficulty, would
be raised on the question of the expedition by
the Imperial Government. (Hear.)
Hon. Mr. Cameron (Peel) thought that not a
single member of the House wished to drive
the Government into any premature action. He
hoped that the Government would be able to
bring down their policy on Monday.
Hon. Mr. Chauveau thought that there was
one thing more to be deprecated than want of
forbearance in the matter, and that was the
rending of the several parts of the Dominion
into pieces. (Hear.) Until that time all the
members had shown the greatest forbearance,
and he hoped the Government would not be
forced into a hasty disclosure of their views.
He hoped the matter would be allowed to rest
for a few days more, until the House would be
able to assume that responsibility which as the
representatives of the people they were under,
and be able to give effect to their resolutions.
Hon. Mr. Dorion said that the Finance Minister had very properly divided the subjects
into two parts. With regard to the measure for
the Government of the North-West Territory,
it was announced in the speech from the
Throne, and for two and a half months the
Opposition had been anxious to hear the terms
of that measure. He did not think it could be
said that they were unduly pressing the Government at that moment. If the Government
told them that they wanted a week they would
not have pressed them for that week; but from
day to day they were told that it would be
ready, and three days ago they were informed
that it was but a question of hours. (Hear.) He
thought that it was not unreasonable to show a
little anxiety on the point at that late period of
1279
the session. But there was another measure
about which he was more anxious, and that
was the expedition. If the Government were
making preparations, and they read of it in
every newspaper throughout the land, he
thought they had stated policy as to that expedition, and the Government was not justified
in withholding from the House the terms and
conditions of the expedition. He had no wish to
press them for their policy on matters in which
they were not acting; but it had been admitted
that action had been taken in this matter of an
expedition. The Government were not justified
in adopting any measure for an expedition
without letting the House know what its policy
was and taking the opinions of the representatives of the people upon it. He hoped
the Government would feel the necessity of satisfying
the just expectations not only of the representatives but of the whole people of the
Dominion upon both points. (Hear.) He had
not the least wish to press the Government for
a hasty decision on one point; but with regard
to the other, which they seemed to have decided upon, the House had a right to information.
Mr. Dufresne said he was opposed to a military expedition to the North-West, and to the
heavy expenses that might be incurred to
acquire that Territory by force of arms.
Mr. Gibbs rose to a question of order. The
House was not now called upon to discuss the
propriety of an expedition to the North-West.
Mr. Ferguson rose to speak, but was interrupted by noises from both sides of the House.
He was persisting in his attempt to address the
House, when the Speaker said he had better
yield to the unmistakeable sentiment of the
House.
(Cries of Chair, Chair.) The matter then
dropped.
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