HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, Feb. 17. 1870
The Speaker took the chair at three o'clock.
Mr. Savary rose to move the Address in reply
to the speech from the Throne. With reference
to the first paragraph he believed the House
would agree with His Excellency that this was
a most suitable time for the meeting of Parliament. The last session was held at a
later
period, but that was owing to circumstances
which rendered it necessary. The circumstances under which they met was referred to
in the second clause of His Excellency's
Speech. The country had cause of congratulation for an abundant harvest last year
throughout the whole Dominion. The Fisheries also
had been unusually productive, and not only
that, but the prices for fish ruled high. Representing as he did a county largely
interested in
this important branch of our industries, it was
especially gratifying to him to be able to make
this statement. He would not enlarge upon the
question of fisheries; but it was well known
that the American Government had adopted a
policy of excluding our fish from their markets, except upon payment of a very high
duty.
This system still continued. It was satisfactory
to know, that though our fisheries were subject
to these burdens, our citizens were not subject
to other burdens which the people of the
United States had to bear. A more loyal, industrious and contented class of people,
he was
glad to say, did not exist in the Dominion, than
the population of Nova Scotia engaged in the
fisheries. (Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the
burdens under which they laboured, they were
prosperous and contented, and looked with the
utmost confidence to this Government to give
them that protection which the importance of
their industry demanded. His Excellency had
not promised any particular measure with reference to the increased protection of
the fisheries guaranteeing to them those rights which
the law of nations had given them; but he had
reason to believe, that now that the United
States were apparently determined to maintain
their restrictions upon our fisheries, our Government were disposed to take steps
to protect
this important branch of our industries. With
regard to the North-West Territory misapprehensions had undoubtedly existed with reference
to the intentions with which that country
was sought to be acquired by Canada. There
had been a complete misunderstanding on the
subject. What object could the Dominion have
in acquiring that Territory hostile to the
inhabitants of the Territory, (hear, hear). It
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COMMONS DEBATES February 17, 1870
was inconsistent with the very spirit of our
institutions not to recognize the rights of the
people of every portion of the Dominion, however small in number they might be. Whether
the country was large or small their rights
were the same, and though the people of the
North-West were now small in number, we
look forward to the day when that country
would contain millions. It was contrary to the
very spirit of our institutions that we should
seek to obtain possession of that country for
any other than the mutual good of the inhabitants of the Territory and ourselves.
He
rejoiced, and he believed the House would also
rejoice, at the assurance His Excellency had
given, that it was desirable to exhaust every
means of conciliation before resorting to other
measures. This proved that peace and harmony
were recognized as the basis of our Government. We did not seek to extend our country
by
conquest but by peaceable means, and by
mutual co-operation of the whole people to
extend British institutions on the whole northern portion of this Continent, which
in the
Good Providence of God still belongs to the
Crown of Great Britain (hear, hear). The
Opposition had given them to understand that
there would be a discussion on this subject,
and it was quite right that all steps taken in
connection with the acquisition of that Territory be thoroughly discussed.
Mr. Savary—It was very easy to be wise
after the event, but if errors had been committed, though he would not say there had
been
any, this was a question on which the Government could confidently look for the generous
consideration and forbearance of the House. He
was not forgetful of the fact that he was one of
those who could not at first see the propriety
or necessity of so early seeking the incorporation of this Territory into the Dominion;
but
his objections were founded upon doubt as to
the pecuniary ability of the Dominion to
expend so large a sum of money as he then
believed to be necessary for the acquisition of
the Territory. But the negotiations with the
Hudson's Bay Company were conducted with
consummate tact and ability—a tact and ability crowned with a gratifying success,
entitling
the two gentlemen who were charged by the
Government with those negotiations to the
gratitude of this House and of the country, and
the result was the acquisition of the Territory
at a cost infinitely less than was apprehended.
He had no doubt that, with the spirit in which
the negotiations had been conducted, before
long all difficulties connected with the
immediate acquisition of the Territory would
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COMMONS DEBATES February 17, 1870
wield the sceptre of our great Empire, and long
may we remain loyal, devoted and law-abiding
subjects of that Crown. He had great pleasure
in moving the Address in reply (cheers).
Mr. Scriver in rising to second the Address,
said he would claim the indulgence of the
House, which he was sure would be extended
to him while he endeavoured to fulfil the task
which he accepted, and he would rely upon
their indulgence, for the topics in the Address
had been eloquently referred to by the honourable mover. He could rejoice with His
Excellency that the circumstances under which they
met were so auspicious. They were in striking
contrast with those under which the House met
last session, when general gloom was cast over
the country by the deficient harvest and other
reverses, which tend to discourage the people.
Though there were some adverse circumstances, there was every reason to feel thankful
for our gratifying bountiful harvest. It was
desirable that a better market should be
obtained for our agriculturists, and he had
hoped that there would be a renewal of the
commercial relations which formerly subsisted
with the United States, and our agriculturists
have this market for the disposal of their
coarse grains; but they had been disappointed.
It now becomes us to assume an independent
policy (hear, hear), and to build up our manufacturing interests, and thus create
a home
market for surplus produce. He hoped that
future legislation would be in that direction.
They would all rejoice at the prospect of a
termination of the difficulties in the North-
West but though the Act for the government of
that Territory would, he hoped, be a liberal
Act, that portion of the Dominion would continue to be a Territory for some time.
He trusted, however, that it would soon exchange that
condition for a full grown State. He endorsed
the views of the hon. mover in regard to the
Finances, and also with regard to the desirability of an assimilation of the Currency.
He considered that the franchise could advantageously be extended here as in the Mother
Country,
and saw no reason why a large class of intelligent people should be deprived of that
privilege merely because they did not possess a
certain amount of property. He thought that
the Census would show progress in every part
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COMMONS DEBATES
February 17, 1870
Brunswick. He could not congratulate the
House upon progress of Confederation. It was
time it was carried, but from expressions he
had heard from members of this House he was
forced to conclude that the Province was not
satisfied. The policy of the Government with
reference to the Intercolonial Railway had
already been fully discussed and he did not
intend to say anything further than that he
should have been glad to have seen the policy
with reference to the construction of that road
materially altered. He thought a policy of
economy should have been pursued. The policy
which had been adopted in the construction of
the Intercolonial Railway has given us the
management of several hundred miles of railway—an arrangement that could not be carried
on as well under Government control as by
private parties, and it involved responsibilities
which it would have been better not to assume.
He was convinced that the expenditure upon
this railway would itself form a serious burden
upon the resources of the country. He regretted
to observe that the policy which had been pursued with reference to Newfoundland and
Prince Edward Island had borne results worse
than barren. They had received a more decided
negative from Newfoundland as regards Confederation. And this House stood in the awkward
position of having legislated with regard
to terms to be offered to Prince Edward Island,
which terms had been rejected entirely. With
regard to the North-West question he was
sorry to arrive at the same conclusion. An
avowed resistance had been given to attempts
to incorporate that Territory into the Dominion. Who was responsible for that state
of
things he would not pretend to say until all the
correspondence and other papers connected
with the matter had been laid before the
House. When he looked from one end to the
other of the Dominion he must pronounce the
administration of the hon. member for Kingston a failure as regards the important
measure
entrusted to him, (hear, hear). He would further say that if there had been one thing
that
had saved Confederation from public disapproval, it was not what had been done by
the
Dominion Government but the efficient management which had characterized the Local
Governments of Quebec and Ontario—eminently the populous and wealthy Province of
Ontario, and these Provinces could be appealed
to as a proof of the satisfactory manner in
which local powers had been administered. The
Speech of the Governor General was a serious
disappointment to him. There was but one
source of congratulation in that Speech—it was
thankfulness for the bountiful harvests; there
was no hope held out that there would be a
reconciliation of difficulties with that Province, and there is nothing to make us
hope that
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COMMONS DEBATES
February 17, 1870
would have refused his support to the Government, on the ground of the hon. gentleman
entering the Cabinet. The Finance Minister
now stated that he (Sir Alexander) had accorded him support, when in office, but he
had been
mistaken. He had given the hon. gentleman no
support, unless it was for a very short time just
previous to the dissolution in 1854. He (Sir
Alexander) was in opposition to the Hincks
Government of which Lafontaine and Baldwin
were chiefs, and was in the strongest possible
opposition with the present Minister of Justice,
and moreover opposed the most important part
of his policy. He (Sir Alexander) gave Hincks
no support in his financial plans. Great excitement was caused about the Clergy Reserve
and
Seigniorial Tenure questions, and because
nothing was put in the speech of Lord Elgin, he
had opposed the Government of the day, of
which Hincks was a member. With regard to
the financial policy of those gentlemen there
were some policies which required a certain
amount of time to develop, and the policy
which had been installed and carried out by
the present Finance Minister was one which
time had developed and which time and the
country had almost unanimously condemned.
He (Sir Alexander) had had experience in the
finances of this country, and the difficulties
and labours which had devolved upon Finance
Ministers, from the time the present Finance
Minister left, have been caused by legislation
he originated.
Mr. Jones (Leeds and Grenville) saw little
good in Coalitions, and said when the Reform
element was fully represented in the Cabinet
by Brown, Howland and McDougall, some of
the most extravagant acts of the Government
took place. He regretted to see nothing in the
Speech having reference to the fraudulent
transactions of certain Government employees,
and respecting which the country demanded
information. He also regretted that no reference had been made to Reciprocity, and
spoke
of the protection the Americans gave to their
produce, which was admitted free to Canada,
while Canadian produce had to pay heavy
duties. He had a right to complain that the
Reform party had seats offered them in the
ministry, and good Conservatives, like himself,
had a very poor chance. (Laughter.) This was
very demoralizing. He had to stand alone in
advocating the rights of the country, the
Reformers following the Hon. George Brown,
and Conservatives going like sheep after their
leader. (Laughter.) He hoped they would
devote more time in future discussing the real
interests of the country, and less to personal
51
explanations. A great deal of personal discussion had taken place but he could not
see that
the country had derived much benefit from the
Reform element in the Cabinet. Several arbitrations had been allowed under their rule
which every Government had resisted. He
instanced the Grand Trunk postal allowance,
which was formerly $70,000, and although they
had demanded an arbitration repeatedly, it was
disallowed till Brown came in, and the result
of the arbitration then sanctioned was that the
grant was increased to $167,000. There was the
claim for extras on the Ottawa Buildings also
submitted by the Coalition Government, and
he could only congratulate the country on the
end of the Coalition. He was glad to welcome
some new adherents to his way of thinking,
and excited some laughter by complaining that
when the Government were hard pushed they
went to the opposite side of the House and
purchased the leading men in Opposition,
instead of taken respectable Conservatives like
himself. He asked why there had been no allusion to the state of the Public Departments,
in
which plundering had been going on for the
last fourteen years, and for which the heads of
the Departments should be held responsible.
He complained that no reference had been
made to reciprocity, for want of which the
country was suffering, and said that there was
intense dissatisfaction among the farmers of
Ontario on account of the want of protection,
which allowed the Americans to send their
Corn and coarse grains to the lumberers and
millers to the exclusion of the producers here,
who were undersold. The question of Confederation had seemed to occupy every mind
to
the exclusion of other matters, and he hoped
that information of an important kind regarding the North-West would be furnished
by the
Secretary of State for the Provinces, who had
lately been visiting the half-breeds and who he
trusted had effected an improvement on that
race. (Laughter.)
Mr. Bowell said the introduction of the
Finance Minister would prove the destruction
of the party in power. There was scarcely a
man in Quebec or Ontario who had not opposed
the appointment when it was proposed. The
course followed by the Premier in bringing in
such men, would result in his having a smaller
following than he had at the time of the Coalition. He could easily understand the
position of
the member for Sherbrooke, who had to bear
the burden of the sins committed by the
52
COMMONS DEBATES
February 17, 1870
present Finance Minister when he had formerly been in office. Not a man who took the
stump in defence of the Government, of which
the member for Sherbrooke formed a part, who
did not take that ground in his defence and had
to defend him (Sir Alexander) against the sins
and iniquities of the present Finance Minister,
to which he had fallen heir. It was strange that
when the Finance Minister took office, if he
was a Reformer, that he could not get a
Reformer to resign in his favour, but had to get
a Conservative to do so in a Conservative
county. Galt's action in resigning on the
Clergy Reserve question was quite intelligible
to those who knew that it had been kept as a
stalking horse for 25 years, and would never
have been settled but for the Minister of Justice and his friends who grappled with
the
subject, and settled the question equitably to
all parties. He demanded that the charges
against Messrs. Howe and Langevin should be
explained, for if guilty of a tithe of what they
were accused, they should be dismissed by
their colleagues; if they supported them, they
should all be driven out of office.
Hon. Mr. Howe was about to speak when
Mr.
Mackenzie said the ministerial explanations
should be separated from the real debate on the
Address, which it was almost too late to discuss at that hour.
Hon. Mr. Howe said he would be judged by
his acts, and not by the slanders of the last few
weeks. When the papers came down he would
be ready to meet his slanderers.
The first clauses of the Address were passed.
On the one referring to the North-West being
put,
Mr. Masson (Terrebonne) expressed his dissatisfaction at the position taken by the Government,
in reference to the North-West, and
stated that on the introduction of the resolutions for an address to Her Majesty for
the
acquisition of the North-West in 1867, the Government had been asked to delay the
matter at
least until the second part of the session, a
period of about two months, in order to afford
the members an opportunity of well considering the question which might in the future
involve us in great difficulties with the Indians, and be a source of enormous expense
to
the country. The answer given was, that no
time could be lost, as the Americans were pouring into the country, and as any delay
on our
part would result in the annexation of those
Territories to the United States, who were only
watching an occasion. Over two years had
53
passed since then, and, notwithstanding the
dissatisfaction of the immense majority of the
inhabitants and rumors of armed interference,
our neighbours have not shewn the slightest
idea of taking possession of the country. He
charged the Government with great imprudence, inasmuch as while buying not property
but individuals, no care had been taken to
ascertain their wishes. Until lately there had
been a complete Government in the Territory,
of which the Governor only was connected
with the Hudson Bay Company, the interests
of some of the members of the Council being in
fact different from theirs, and if the Government here did not consult the people,
they
should at least have consulted the existing
Government. Among the members of the Council were the Anglican and Roman Catholic
Bishops who had always worked most harmoniously together for the good of the Colony,
and whose advice would have been of the
greatest importance. He then referred to a book
or report written by Bishop Taché, who had
lived over a quarter of a century in that Territory and travelled over it in every
direction.
That report, he was informed, had remained
unpublished in the hands of the Government
for over two years, while the House had been
furnished with the opinions of men who had
remained in the country only a short time,
gathered the greater part of their information
from hearsay, and generally got up their
reports with a particular object in view. He
reflected severely on the Government for hinting at the use of force, and asked how
it would
have been regarded had the people of Nova
Scotia been threatened, that every attempt at
conciliation having been tried, other means
would be used. He asked for the same treatment for the half-breeds of whatever race,
as
had been given to Nova Scotia.
Hon. Mr. Howe wished the remarks of the
hon. member for Terrebonne had been made
after we had seen the policy of the Government, which would be based upon broad liberal
principles.
The House adjourned at a quarter to eleven.
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