654 HOUSE OF COMMONS.
[...]aries of Manitoba in the east. The present
Bill would be applicable to the territory
of the Dominion east of Manitoba as well
as to that to the west and north. He
might mention that application had been
made on behalf of the Government of
Manitoba for an enlargement of their territory. They proposed, in fact, to have it
made something like nine or ten times
larger than it was at present. But there
were other proposals of that Government
in connection with this matter which rendered necessary the postponement of action
for the present until a conference, can be
had with the Local Government. It was
proposed by this Bill to have a Lieutenant-
Governor of the North-West territories
who would be assisted by a Council. That
Council would consist of five members appointed by the GOVERNOR GENERAL in Council;
three stipendiary magistrates or judges,
to be appointed in a similar manner who
would be members of the Council ex-ofiicio—
and two others, perhaps the principal Indian Agent and some other person whose
place of residence and occupation made it
convenient for them to perform the duties
that would be required of them. The first
section of this Bill simply provided that
the territories formerly known as "Ruperts
Land, and the North-West territories,"
should continue to be styled and known as
the North-West territories, and that there
shall be a Lieutenant Governor appointed who shall hold office during the pleasure
of the GOVERNOR GENERAL and receive instructions in the same way as Lieutenant
Governors in the Provinces. The third
section provides for the establishment of the
Council, and the fourth that the seat of
Government may from time to time be
changed by the GOVERNOR GENERAL in
Council. In the meantime the seat of
Local Government for the territories shall
be established at Fort Pelly, that being a
convenient place to reach the Sascatchewan
River and Fort Ellis, and other parts of
the territories, and not beyond reach of the
telegraph system about being established.
The Government last season constructed
buildings there for the North-West
police force, sufficient to accommodate two
hundred men, a commandant house, an
hospital and other buildings ; and these
buildings could accommodate the officers
connected with the North West Government without any serious expense. Last
year there was expended on these build
ings something like $30,000. By section
five it was proposed to pay the Lieut.
Governor a salary not exceeding $7,000,
and each Stipendary Magistrate or Judge
a salary not exceedng $3,000, and the
other two members of the Council a salary
not exceeding $1,000; and to the Clerk
of the Council who shall act as Secretary
to the Lieut. Governor a salary not exceeding $1,800. Sections six seven and
eight simply provide for the consolidation
of the laws and ordnances now in force in
those territories, and the ninth section
that no ordnance shall be passed by the
Governor in Council or the Lieut. Governor inconsistant with any Act of the
Dominion Parliament. This section restricts the jurisdiction of the Council practically
to that now enjoyed by the Lieut.
Governor of Manitoba acting as Governor
of the North— West Territories, and his
Council. The next few sections provide
for popular Government so far as it could
be established under the circumstances of
the country. The eleventh section provides that so soon as the Lieut. Governor
is satisfied by such proof as he may require that any portion Of the territory not
exceeding an area of one thousand square
miles contains a population of not
less than one thousand inhabitants
such district may be erected into
an electoral district which shall be
entitled to elect a member of the Council
or as it may be of the Legislative Assembly.
The sub-sections provide the machinery for
holding the elections. The fifth sub—section provides that as soon as the Lieut.
Governor is satisfied that any electoral
district contains a population of two
thousand, exclusive of aliens and unenfranchised Indians, he shall issue a writ
for the election of a second member. The
sixth sub-section provides that when the
number of elective members amounts to
twenty-one the council hereinbefore
appointed shall cease be determined,
and the members so elected shall be constituted and designated as the Legislative
Assembly of the North—West Territory,
and the powers by this Act vested in the
council shall thenceforth be vested and
exercisable by such Legislative Assembly.
One of the sub—sections provides that every
bona fide resident and householder who
shall have been in the district for twelve
months may vote, and any person entitled
to vote shall be eligible for election.
MARCH 12, 1875. 655
Sections twelve to thirty inclusive contain
provisions for the holding of real estate,
and the administration of estates, the law
that prevails in Ontario with regard to
property being introduced. Sections 36,
to 44 inclusive make provisions for wills
and their registration; and from 45 to 50
provisions regarding married women defining their rights as to property. Section
54 provides that the Governor may appoint
a registrar of deeds in and for the North- West Territories and the remuneration to
be paid. Section 52 provides for the appointment of a
Sheriff who shall reside in the
territory ; and the Lieutenant Governor
is authorized by the 53d section to have
local disposition of the police force in and
for the North—West Territories established
under the Act respecting the administration of justice in those territories. For
the administration of justice the Lieutenant Governor is authorized by section 54
to appoint Justices of the Peace; and the
Governor in Council may, by ordinances,
subject to the provisions of this Act, set
apart any portion of said territories as
and for a judicial district, and may from
time to time alter the limits and extent of
any such district. Section 56 provides
that a court or courts of civil and criminal jurisdiction, shall be held in said territories
in every judicial district, and at
such periods and places as the Lieutenant
Governor may from time to time alter.
Section 55 provides authority for the
appointment of a stipendary magistrate,
and magistrates within the territories.
Section 59, and following sections, provide
the jurisdiction of each stipendary magistrate, and the mode of holding the courts
for the trial of criminal offences. Section
68, and following sections, provide for the
administration of justice in civil cases.
Section 71, and the sub-sections one to six
inclusive, contain provisions for excluding
all intoxicating liquors, prohibiting their
introduction and their sale in the territories. This would give the Dominion a fair
opportunity to commence with a clean
slate in this enormous territory, and test
practically the operation of a prohibitory
liquor law where there has been no law on
that or any other subject before. If we
were able to accomplish prohibition in
that territory it would enable us the better to accomplish the object that so many
were petitioning for as regards the whole
Dominion. He might say in connection
with this part of the Bill that the officers
of the police force now in the territory
have very stringent instructions about the
destruction of intoxicating liquors, and
Col. McLeod, the officer in command at
Belly river, at the flank of the Rocky
Mountains, had seized a large quantity of
liquor, and on one occasion knocked in
the head of forty-four barrels of
whiskey. The exclusion of intoxicating
liquor had already been very beneficial,
so far at least as regards the condition of
the Indian tribes, and we had reason to
believe that it had given the utmost satisfaction. The police force would also act
as revenue officers, assisting the prevention of smuggling. They collected some
$1,000 or $5,000 of duties levied upon
merchandise, in the legitimate course of
trade, in the months of December and
January, the duties previous to that time
not having been levied. The other sections of the Act, 72, 73 and 74, simply
provided for the repeal of the various Acts
now in force and in order to avoid all confusion, a schedule was given of the Acts
now in force, and which would be repealed
by the enactment of this law.
Hon.Mr. CAUCHUN asked if the
place of residence of the Lieut. Governor
was fixed. Â
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the
Government had at Fort Pelly all the
buildings necessary to fulfill all the conditions of a Governor's residence.
Right
Hon. Sir JOHN MACDONALD said this wasa Bill of so great importance that every hon. member of this
House would feel it his duty to consider
it fully, and it might occupy a good deal
of time. However, they must address
themselves to the task. With reference
to the proposed settlement of the boundary lines, he was sorry to learn that the
suggestions of the late Government
were not carried cut, and that the
matter was not referred to the judicial committee of the Privy Council for an
authoritative decision. He would like to
know whether it was the duty, of these
arbitrators (who would be acceptable, he
was satisfied, to the country as they were
to himself) to decide where the line is to
run, or simply to decide upon aline which
they would recommend to be adopted.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE replied that
the exact instructions he not yet been
656 HOUSE OF COMMONS.
communicated to the Arbitrator for the
 Dominion, but he might say he felt that
the Arbitrators should be left to define
where the line should be, though not
strictly according to the interpretation of
the law, if there should be any doubt on
that score.
Sir JOHN MACDONALD asked
whether concessions were to be made by
Manitoba or by the Dominion. According to one contention the head of Lake
Superior belongs to the North-West;
 according to the other contention (and he
thought that would be supported by the
hon, member for Bothwell) the Province
of Ontario runs to the Lake of the Woods
or perhaps further.
Sir JOHN MACDONALD contended
that this question should be settled. The
Dominion had purchased the whole of the
North-West, and it belonged to Canada,
and therefore the whole Dominion should
know exactly what their property was,
how far it extended, and what was the
boundary of their farm in the first place.
That being once ascertained it might be
well, at all events it would be expedient,
that wherever the line was to be fixed
according to this arbitration, there should
be a boundary defined as the legal boundary between the North-West and Manitoba. He
hoped the award of the arbitrators, whatever it might be, would not
be final, but would be subject to the ratification of the Government and be submitted
to Parliament. He wished to know
whether the award was to be the unanimous decision of the arbitrators or of a
majority of them.
Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD Â
pressed strongly upon the Government that the arbitrators should
be asked to find, first, where the western boundary line of Ontario was by law, and
second,
the eastern boundary of Manitoba. Then
they might also be authorized to report a conventional line, other than the line they
might
say was the legal boundary, as being a
convenient one considering all the circumstances of the case. With regard to the
appointment of Lieutenant Governor, the
hon. gentleman should show some necessity
for it since the Lieutenant Governor of
Manitoba was paid, in addition to his
 salary, a sum for governing the North- West Territory as well. That was to
say, he had two commissions ; one as
Lieut. Governor of Manitaba, with a regular Ministry, and the other as Lieutenant
Governor of the North-West, which
might be considered in the light
of a colony. The hon. gentleman
should be prepared to show in the second
reading that there was a necessity for appointing an additional Governor just now.
Manitoba was a very small Province in
itself, with a very small population, and
if one Lieutenant Governor was suffiient
for the Government of Ontario, surely
one ought to be enough for Manitoba and
the North-West for some time to come at
all events. All the country lying west of
Lake Superior and east of Manitoba was
considered part of the North-West, and
could not be governed as well from Fort
Pelly as from Fort Garry. He approved
of the provision relating to Stipendiary
Magistrates, but thought there was no
necessity for the clause introducing the
popular element. It seemed to him that
the Government should not clog themselves with such a provision. At the
right time they could pass an Act
introducing the popular element into the
Government of the North-West.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the
North-West Council was in existence, and
could be increased to 21 members. Though
several vacancies had occurred in it, the
Government made no appointments.
Every one of those gentlemen
was styled honorable until honorables became very plentiful in
in Manitoba. The Government found
them a little Parliament acting for the
North-West, though they resided in the
Province, and some of them were never in
the territories. The Government had
repeated demands from them during the
last year for large sums of money. They
made a requisition once for $10,000, and
actually cost the country during the last
part of the year $3,000. It was evident
that the council would cost the country
as much as a Government in the territory,
without being as efficient. In some places
within the territories there is already a
very considerable population. At Fort
Albert there are 500 people other than
 Indians who have settled there, and that
 population would soon be increased to
three or four times the number. There
MARCH 12, 1875. 657
is a very considerable settlement where
the North-West Police was stationed, on
the Belly River, on the flank of the
Rocky Mountains, and as this district is
one of the finest portions of the territory,
it would be rapidly settled. It seemed to
be exceedingly desirable, at the earliest
point of time, that there should be a firm
Government established within the territories and that the Governor should reside
several hundred miles west of the present
point of authority, in order to exercisea proper influence for the maintenance of
peace,
or overlooking Indian affairs, and generally
helping the Government to establish law
and order throughout the territories.
The Government had ascertained, from
the most authentic source, that within
the last eighteen months there were very
nearly 150 murders committed in the
North-West territories, and no person had
been brought to trial. No doubt those
were mostly slain in Indian fights with
traders from Missouri and Montana, of a
most reckless character, who introduced
the vilest passions of human nature into
the territories and slaughtered the poor
people with their improved fire-arms and
dealing death and destruction by their
vile intoxicating liquors. It seemed very
clear that there was an absolute necessity
for the establishment of a firm Government within the boundaries of the territories,
and that provisions should be made for
a popular Government, for the establishment of schools and of some municipal
system which would enable the people to
mantain roads, bridges, and other local
works. That connot be done under the
old laws, for although they were suitable
for a short period of time, it was now evident that the country required an improved
system. The Government were,
therefore, quite justified in submitting this
measure to Parliament, and no doubt
whenever the Bill went into operation it
would immensely promote the settlement
of the country, for nothing was so essential to the settlement of the country as the
maintenance of law and order within its
bounds.
Hon. Mr. MITCHELL thought it was
very desirable that the commissioners
should be appointed as proposed. The
Government having decided that they
would not follow the course suggested by
the late Government of having the Privy
Council decide what were the local rights
of the Dominion of Canada, but would
refer the matter to the arbitrament of two
commissioners, it was equally desirable
that they should not only decide where it
was desirable to define the boundaries of
Ontario, but also to decide what were the
legal and proper boundaries between Ontario and the North-West territories.
The late Government had always recognized that the western boundary line of
Ontario was two miles east of Fort William. During the existence of the Ontario Government,
of which the hon.
First Minister was a member, they
claimed and exercised jurisdiction over a
district west of Fort William. As a
representative of one of the smaller Provinces, he feared that Ontario possesses
at the present time too much power, and
that the great power which it exercised
might act to the injury of the smaller
Provinces, which had equal rights with
Ontario in the North-West territory. In
place of extending the boundaries of
Manitoba westward, it might be desirable
to extend them eastward and northward
toward Ontario, so as to give the Province
of Manitoba water communication with
the great lakes. He suggested to
the Government the desirability when
giving instructions to the commissioners
of having them clearly defined, and the
conclusion arrived at by the commissioners should not be final, but subject to the
approval of the Dominion Parliament.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE said the hon. member for Northumberland had referred to
the pre-eminent power of Ontario in this
House, and was apprehensive that the
results of that arbitration would be
affected by that power. The hon. gentleman knew the character and reputation
of the public men of his own Province
better than he (Mr. BLAKE) could tell
him ; but such an insinuation had never
been cast on a public man as cast by the
hon. member on the Ex-Governor WILMOT of his own Province, who was one of
the commissioners.
Hon. Mr. MITCHELL said he did not
intend to cast any imputation on the
character of the commissioners. He had
confidence in both Judge RICHARDS and
Judge WILMOT, but he knew the preeminent power which a great power like
Ontario exercised over men's minds.
658 HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE said he had no
doubt whatever, that the arbitrators would
discharge their duty to the best of their
ability. Under the Imperial Act it was
only by the joint legislative action
of the Provinces affected, and of the
Dominion that the boundaries, whatever
they were, could be altered ; therefore, it
was only an authoritative exposition of
the law itself that would be obtained, and
anything else would be merely suggestive.
The task which the Ministry had set for
itself was the most important it was possible to conceive. To found primary
institutions under which we hope to see
hundreds of thousands, and the more sanguine among us think millions of men and
families settled and flourishing, was one of
the noblest undertakings that could be
entered upon by any legislative body, and
it was no small indication of the power
and true position of this Dominion that
Parliament should be engaged to-day in
that important task. He agreed with the
hon. member for Kingston that the task
was one that required time, consideration and deliberation, and they must take
care that no false steps were made in such
a work. He did not agree with that
right hon. gentleman that the Government ought to repeal his errors. The
right hon. gentleman had tried the institutions for the North-West territories
which he now asked the House to frame,
and for the same reason as he had given
to-day—that it would be better for the
Dominion Government to keep matters in
their own hands and decide what was best
for the future. He (Mr. BLAKE) believed
that it was essential to our obtaining a
large immigration to the North-West that
we should tell the people beforehand
what those rights were to be in the country in which we invited them to settle.
It was interesting to the people to know
that at the very earliest moment there
was a sufficient aggregate of population
within a reasonable distance, that aggregation would have a voice in the self-government
of the territories, and he believed
the Dominion Government was wise,
(although the measure might be brought
down very late this session and
it might be found impossible to
give it due consideration) in determining in advance of settlement what the
character of the institutions of the country
should be in which we invite people to
settle. He did not agree with the policy
of asking people to settle in that western
country, and tell them that a paternal
Government would look after them, and
would give them such institutions as the
Government thought suitable. We had
better let the people know their fate
politically and otherwise before they settled there. The task to be discharged
now, or at some future time, was one of
considerable importance. And amongst
the difficulties was the determining of
what the range of power of the Council
would be in the first place, assuming that
its character would be that of a mixed
nominative and elective council, as he understood it would be of the First Minister;
the Council, at a subsequent period
assuming the position of a Legislative
Assembly when the population was sufficient to entitle it to assume that position.
He did not hear from the hon. First Minister any distinct enunciation of the
powers committed to the Council and
afterwards to the Assembly. Looking
over the Bill hastily it seemed that the
powers were too general, that the powers
were those of the British North American Act with respect to peace, order and
good government.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE—It gave the Council all the powers practically enjoyed by
this Parliament and the Local Legislatures
together; and it would be proper to restrict and define their powers in all matters
connected with Municipal Government, and provision should be made at the
earliest possible moment for municipal
institutions, local taxation and improvements. He regarded it as essential under
the circumstances of the country, and in
view of the deliberation during the last
few days that a general principle
should be laid down in the Bill
with respect to public instruction.
He did believe that we ought not to introduce into that territory the heart burnings
and difficulties with which certain other
portions of this Dominion and other
countries had been affected. It seemed to
him, having regard to the fact that, as far
as we could expect at present, the general
character of that population would be
somewhat analogous to the population of
Ontario, that there should be some provision in the constitution by which they
MARCH 12, 1875. 659
should have conferred upon them the same
rights and privileges in regard to religious
instruction as those possessed by the people
of the Province of Ontario. The principles
of local self-government and the settling of
the question of public instruction seemed
to him ought to be the cardinal principles
of the measure.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE said the
words "Governor-in-Council" in the 8th
clause of the Bill meant not the Lieutenant
Governor but the GOVERNOR GENERAL.
Practically the legislation of the territory
would be in the hands of the Government
here at Ottawa. The Lieutenant Governor
in Council would have power to make
only such laws and ordinances as the Bill
provided for, and it would be for Parliament, when the population had increased
sufficiently, to confer upon them more
extensive powers than it was proposed to
give them under the present measure. As
not in the first place attract his attention,
but when he came to the subject of local
taxation he was reminded of it. Not
having had time before to insert a clause
on the subject, he proposed to do so when
the Bill was in committee. The clause
provided that the Lieutenant Governor,
by and with the consent of his Council or
Assembly, as the case might be, should
pass all necessary ordinances in respect of
education, but it would be specially pro
vided that the majority of the rate-payers
might establish such schools and impose
such necessary assessment as they might
think fit; and that the minority of the
rate-payers, whether Protestant or Roman
Catholic, might establish separate schools:
and such rate-payers would be liable only
to such educational assessments as they
might impose upon themselves. This, he
hoped would meet the objection offered by
the hon. member for South Bruce. There
might be some amendments found necessary in the Bill, but he thought it would
be found generally speaking to meet the
requirements of the country. However,
the Government would be very glad to
avail themselves as far as possible of such
suggestions as might be made to them.
Mr. D. A. SMITH thought the provisions of the Bill before the House were on
the whole calculated to do good service in
the North-West if honestly and properly
carried out. A very great deal depended
upon the administration of the law and upon
the character of those who were appointed to
carry it out. In this respect they had suffered much in Manitoba. It was well
known that sufficient care had not been
taken in that respect. He did not say this
as a reproach to the right hon. member for
Kingston, who, he believed, had under the
circumstances done the best he could. At
the time there was very little knowledge
of the country in Canada, and perhaps even
now there was not as much as could be
desired. He believed the right hon. gentleman sent to the country those whom he
thought best fitted to perform the duties.
Much had been done within the past year
towards introducing law and good order in
that country by sending out an efficient
body of police. He said this with the
greater pleasure because in the first instance he was afraid they were not very efficient,
and so much had been said to the
discredit of the force in the early part of
the season that they were received with a
little distrust ; but he had in his possession
a letter from a person who had been out
just where Major McLEOD was, and which
stated that officer was doing his duty excellently. He had cleared the country of
the whiskey traders, and it was now peace
and quiet where last year it was dangerous
for any one to be. He (Mr. SMITH)
thought this spoke a great deal for the
efficiency of the Mounted Police, and was
a strong commentary upon what had already been done for the Government of
the country. The means for preserving
the peace were formerly quite insufficient.
He thought the provisions of the Bill now
brought in were calculated to serve the
purpose for which the measure was intended for many years to come. At present
the Council of the North-West was probably not just exactly such a body as it
ought to be. They were under the
very great disadvantage of being
far removed from such portions
of the territory as were at all settled. The
principal settlements were 500 or 600
miles from Manitoba, which was quite
equal to 3,000 or 4,000 miles in this
eastern country, because the means of
communication were very bad. He felt
that under the circumstances of that
country it would be a great
benefit to have a Governor and
Council within the territory. He did not
660
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
doubt that the Council would be an efficient one, or at any rate he hoped that it
would be, since so much depended upon
the character of those appointed to it. He
thought it was a wise provision not to at
once extend legislative powers to the new
territory. In the chief settlement, Prince
Albert,there were not at present more than
500 inhabitants, but when they increased to
1,000 or more, and the other settlements had
increased in the same ratio, he thought it
would be right to give them local legislative powers. His objection to the North-
West Council as at present constituted
was that many of its members knew
nothing more of the country than gentlemen on the floor of this House who had
simply heard of the North-West as they
had of other far distant countries. However, there were atleast six of them who knew
it intimately, but it would be a most invidious thing for these gentlemen to get up
and tell their fellow-councillors that they
knew nothing at all about it. It would be
admitted that very frequently those who
were the least acquainted with a subject
were the most ready to give advice. He
thought on the whole it was very much
better that they should have the Council
proposed in this Bill, and that those who
formed the new Council should have an
intimate local knowledge of the country,
and be connected with its interests. The
right hon. member for Kingston seemed to
think that it would be an objection to
have the Council at Fort Pelly, having in
view the interests of the country eastward
of Fort Garry. He was himself of opinion
that the interests of that country for
some time would be of such small importance that the location of the Council
would not be a matter of such great consequence. With regard to the disputed
boundary between Manitoba and Ontario,
the people there would be very glad to
find that a port on Lake Superior belonged
to them by right, but he hoped that
whether it did or not the people of Ontario
would give it to them as a matter of grace.
The point brought up by the hon. member
for South Ontario was an important one,
and he was glad to find that the First
Minister intended to introduce a provision
in Committee, dealing with the subject.
He had not noticed from the explanations
given that there was any intention to give
a representative to the North-West at
Ottawa. Without some such provision he
did not see how the North-West could
have a voice in the legislation of this
Dominion, and he strongly contended that
there should be at least one member to
represent its interests here. It would give
a great deal of satisfaction in this country,
and he thought it would be at least
a matter of justice to the North-West.
He hoped stringent measures would be
taken to prevent the introduction of goods.
without payment of duty, as such practice
was injurious to the honest merchants
who paid the duties. At present the
revenue laws were evaded by bringing in
goods by way of British Columbia.
Mr. SCHULTZ said that those who
were acquainted with the North-West
Territory would agree with him that it
was a most difficult matter to establish a
proper and efficient system of Government
there. He was very much pleased with
the general features of the Bill. He dissented from the view of the hon. member
for Kingston that the Lieut. Governor of
Manitoba could efficiently administer the
Government of the territories. That system had proved a failure, and though he
was a member of the council he must
frankly admit that it was impossible for
them under the circumstances to efficiently
carry out the laws in the territory. He
believed with the member for South Bruce
that we must have a strong Government
in that territory. There was a moral
power in the cocked hat of a Governor,
and in the coat of a policeman. Large
powers should be given to the proposed
new council. It was not advisable in his
opinion to give representative institutions
to that territory just now. However, he
would discuss the details of the measure
at a future stage, and he hoped the Government would receive in a kindly spirit
the suggestions of those who were familar
with the condition and wants of that
country. With regard to the mounted
police, he must say that under its present
able commander it had proved a very
efficient force. He regretted that the
Government decided upon Fort Pelly as
the seat of Government for the North.
West, as in his opinion it possessed no
recommendation except the fact that it
would have telegraph communication.
However, as there was a provision in the
Bill for a change in the seat of Government, if it was deemed advisable he would
raise no objection on that head.
MARCH 12, 1875 661
Mr. MILLS said there were several
important features in this Bill which
would require special attention. One was
that relating to the powers given to
the Lieut. Governor in Council. The
Premier spoke of their having power to
establish schools, build roads and bridges
and do other works of a municipal character.
It was extremely doubtful whether the
Governor in Council could have any of
these powers. It was proposed to furnish
the money for these objects out of the
Dominion Treasury then it might be done,
but the Crown itself had no power to impose taxes upon any portion of the community,
and of course could not delegate
to any Lieut. Governor in Council powers
which it did not itself possess. It could
not authorize a Governor in Council to
establish a municipal system and provide
for the taxation of the people.
Mr. MILLS—That is another matter. If
it was intended, therefore, that these things
should be done, it seemed to him provision
must be made in the Bill for their being
done by Parliament. There was another
matter it seemed to him ought not to be
disregarded; and that was the terms and
conditions under which these people would
ultimately be formed into a Province. It
would be better that the people who settle
that territory should know beforehand the
terms and conditions under which they
would become an organized part of the
Dominion. He saw no objection, when the
population became sufficiently large, to allowing that territory to be represented
in the
Dominion Parliament before it was organized
into a Province. By and by we would
be called upon, when Provinces came to
be organized in that territory, to state
what liabilities the Dominion should
assume, and what revenues should be
given to the Local Government, and it
seemed to him it was just as well that
this should be done at the beginning so
that there would be no room for dispute
or difficulty in the future. If some definite plan was adopted, the people would
become accustomed to it, and no embarrassment or trouble would arise when it
came to be carried into effect. Those who
observed the American territorial system
of government would notice that from the
tune the first government was organized
under the ordinance enacted by Congress
in 1787, till the establishment of the last
territorial government, there was scarcely
any difference in the plan of government,
and they had never found it necessary to
depart from the general principle laid
down in the ordinance of 1787. It
seemed to him we ought not to refuse to
profit by the experience of others under
similar circumstances to our own. In
order to accomplish the object he had suggested, the Government should know what
moneys they had expended on public
buildings and works in these territories,
which might afterwards become the property of the Local Government, and in
that case it would only be fair that when
the time came for the admission of the territory into the Union the money so expended
could be charged to it as a public debt.
He saw no difficulty in this being done,
but thought it should be embraced in the
fundamental law. The hon. member for
Northumberland had stated that Manitoba should have a sea-port town and its
boundary ought to be extended to the
shores of Lake Superior. If the hon.
gentleman would look into the question,
he wonld find Ontario had something to
say on that matter, and he had no hesitation in saying seeing that it was to be
decided on judicial principles he did not
think it was competent for the Dominion
Government to decide it otherwise than
was proposed. Under the Quebec Act of
1774, the western limit of what now
remained to us as the old Province of
Quebec was fixed at the forks of the Saskatchewan, and the head waters of the
Mississippi. By an Order in Council that
was adopted ln 1791, it was declared that
the western limit of the western portion
of Quebec, erected into Upper Canada,
shall extend to what is known as the
western limit of Canada under the French.
That, he apprehended, would extend to
the Rocky Mountains. That country Was
taken possession of by the French. They
established forts at several points in the
Red River territory and the most western fort was at the forks of the Saskatchewan.
They had appointed Captain
LA CORNE to govern the territory under a
license from Quebec. The whole country was occupied by the French Government as part
of Canada, and was made by
the Order in Council of 1791, part of the
present Province of Ontario. The late
Government had organized the Province of
662 HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Manitoba within those limits but he apprehended if a judicial decision should be sought
from this arbitration instead of extending the boundary of Manitoba to the shores
of Lake Superior, this Parliament would be called upon to compensate Ontario for a
very considerable portion they had acquired from that Province.
The Bill was read a first time.
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