1188 COMMONS DEBATES April 26, 1870
THE NORTH-WEST
Hon. Mr. Holton said he did not propose to
precipitate the discussion on the Red River
affairs, he thought it was due to the House that
the Government should give information on
certain points. He would therefore put the following questions. Was it true that the
Government were preparing to send a military expedition to Red River? If so, what
was the nature,
1189
object and scope of the expedition, and under
what policy was it to be sent? Also, what were
the relations between the Imperial and Canadian Governments on the subject; what proportion
of the expedition were to be volunteers,
what proportion of expense was to be borne by
each Government? Was the Territory yet
transferred to Canada? If not, was it to be
transferred before the departure of the expedition? He could not imagine that the
Government proposed sending a military force at the
cost of this country, composed in part of the
volunteers of this country, into a country over
which the jurisdiction of this country had not
been formally extended. Also whether the Government was at this moment negotiating
or
had had any communication with the so—called
delegates from the Red River country, known
as the delegates from the Provisional Government, namely, Father Ritchot, Judge Black
and
Scott. Finally, when the papers so often promised—the report of Donald A. Smith and,
other gentlemen commissioned to the Red
River country by the Government—would be
laid upon the table? He could not think that
with the Parliament in session, men would
assume the grave responsibility of deciding
upon matters of the kind he had alluded to,
without taking the advice of Parliament; and
Parliament would be recreant in its duty if it
allowed the Government to proceed in a matter
of this kind compromising, perhaps, the peace
of the country, certainly compromising the exchequer of the country to perhaps an
incalculable amount, without having submitted to it
some statement of the policy upon which their
course was based.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—The hon. gentleman in the exercise of his responsibility as a
member of Parliament has asked certain questions, of course the responsibility is
his—it is
not mine. I am very glad it is his case and not
mine; for I think a majority of this House will
agree with me that that responsibility is a very
grave one, and will feel that my hon. friend, in
putting those questions at all, and in putting
them in the way he has today, must have some
over-ruling principle or reason for doing so,
because to any ordinary man, to any man of
common sense, it must be evident that these
questions are exceedingly inopportune (hear),
and in order to show that they are inopportune
I will simply answer one of his questions—
almost the last in his category. The hon. gentleman asked if the Canadian Government
have
been or are in communication with any delegates from the North-West Territory. The
answer to that is simply that they are, (hear).
1190 COMMONS DEBATES April 26, 1870
They are now in the midst of those communications.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—They are
now, I say, in the midst of them, and they
believe that the result of those communications
will be a solution of all the difficulties that
have so harassed the Government and painfully engaged the public mind since last Autumn.
I believe it is only a matter of days—indeed I
may say a matter of hours; and I think that by
paying a due regard to reticence my hon. friend
might have prevented any unseemly discussion, or rather I should say any undue and
premature statement, as to what those communications are. My hon. friend must understand
that the Government have, and can have
only one object—that object being to settle this
unfortunate state of affairs as soon as possible,
as economically as possible, and as fairly as
possible, with a due respect and regard for the
interests of all concerned. I can only tell my
hon. friend that it is not in the interest of the
people of Canada, or of any portion of the
people of Canada, that at this moment these
questions should be put, and I take this opportunity at once of stating that it is
in the highest degree inexpedient that they should be
answered. At the same time, however, I will
inform my hon. friend that in a very short
time—in a very few hours, and several days
before this House can hope to be prorogued—
there will be a satisfactory solution of all these
difficulties, and the Government will be in a
position to give a full answer to all these
enquiries, when my hon. friend will find that
they have paid due regard not only to the
principles and interests, but even to the prejudices of all our people, both East
and West, and
that there will be a happy solution of every
embarrassing question, (hear, hear). I need
not, I think, Sir, further press this point or
dwell upon these questions. I can quite understand what the hon. gentleman urges—that
this House has a right to full explanations of
this grave situation of affairs. I can quite
understand that this House has a right to
demand, especially, full explanations of any
matter involving an expenditure of public
money.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I can only
assure my hon. friend that the Government
fully recognize that right, and that any expenditure of public money which may be
made
will be with the full sanction and approval of
Parliament, (hear, hear).
1191
Hon. Mr. Dorion said it seemed to him that
the whole question was whether any expenditure of public money was going on without
the
sanction of Parliament. They knew that East
and West preparations had been on foot for
sending an armed expedition into the Territory. It was proper that this House should
be
informed whether those preparations were still
going on or not, and a plain answer would
satisfy members that things were not being
done which the Government had no right to do.
He hoped, therefore, the Premier would have
no hesitation in quieting the public mind by
stating whether the public expenditure was
now going on with a view to prepare a military
expedition for despatch to the Red River Territory, and what was the extent of the
preparations if any had taken place. He (Mr. Dorion)
could not conceive the Government had any
right to order public expenditure for any purpose whatever, without informing the
House of
its object and extent.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I will only
make one remark upon the most unfortunate
speech of the hon. gentleman opposite, and it is
this, that the Government are making arrangements of a certain kind, which, however,
cannot be carried out, and will not be carried
out, without an express vote of Parliament.
They will appeal to Parliament with every confidence; and instead of having their
arrangements condemned for extravagance, they will
more probably be censured for parsimony. I
say no more.
Hon. Mr. Holton said he had only one or two
remarks to make upon what had been stated by
the Minister of Justice. He (Mr. Holton) had
based his whole questions on the fact that
considerable expenditure had been already
incurred—an expenditure which he regarded
as improper without consulting Parliament
while Parliament happened to be in session. He
would only say that he hoped, with the hon.
gentleman, that this matter would find a happy
solution within a few hours, or a few days.
Certainly no man could have so deep an interest in the realization of that hope as
the hon.
gentleman himself, who, more than any other
man in the country, was responsible for the
deplorable dilemma into which we were
brought, for he (Mr. Holton) maintained that
the whole of this imbroglio in the North-West
was due to the unfortunate management, or
want of management, of the hon. gentlemen
opposite; to their ignorance of what was doing
there, and to their vacillations in doing what
required to be done as emergencies arose.
1192 COMMONS DEBATES April 26, 1870
Hon. Mr. Holton—I therefore join with the
hon. gentleman in hoping that a happy solution
will be found for the difficulty.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald could only say,
in reply to the hon. gentleman, that the Government accepted, and felt the responsibility,
and believed they would have the support of a
majority of this House, and of the country, in
the course which they had taken.
Mr. Mackenzie asked if the hon. gentleman
was in a position to say when the promised Bill
would be brought down. It had been promised
for Saturday, and was not yet before the
House.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I will
explain, that the discussion of this matter is
carried on by Government, not with one or two
or three alone, not with the delegates so-called,
chosen by the convention—but with other gentlemen also. We are getting all the information
we can from gentlemen who have come from
that western country. We are discussing,
primarily, those clauses which may be considered disputed clauses—clauses in regard
to
which there are fears and jealousies on the
part of the old settlers of the Territory, lest
they should be overridden in their rights by
the newcomers. I believe that those jealousies
are unfounded—but still we have got to overcome them, and to make it clear that there
is
no intention to do injustice. Saturday, Monday
and to-day, myself and my hon. colleague who
sits next to me, have been engaged continuously—I may say night and day—in considering
these very important questions. This is a
matter upon which too much pains cannot be
expended. It is a matter in which an enormous
sum of money, and perhaps the future of this
continent are involved, and therefore my hon.
friend will see that it is inadvisable to bring
down the measure with undue precipitancy.
But I can tell my hon. friend, that last night
after going home from the House, and guided
by communications with people from Red
River Territory, I prepared a measure which
may be brought down almost without delay.
There were one or two points to be discussed
to—day, and that discussion was going on from
morning till half-past three, when we were
sent for to come down to the House. To-morrow morning the questions under consideration
will be settled, and I will probably be
able shortly afterwards to bring down the
measure. It will be placed in the hands of the
draftsman to-night, and when put into form
to-morrow, will probably be laid before the
House. I think it will be found to be a measure
which will meet with satisfaction in all parts
of the country, and especially in that part of it,
1193
represented by my hon. friend from Lambton,
(hear, hear).
Mr. Mackenzie hoped the Government did
not intend to continue the services of the agent
at St. Paul's, employed by the Secretary of
State for the Provinces, as a medium for transmission of despatches to and from the
Territory. He had systematically colored the despatches from that quarter. He referred
to Mr.
Wheelock, editor of St. Paul's Press, the most
rabid anti-Canadian that could be found.
Hon. Mr. Howe said he thought Mr. Wheelock had forwarded everything sent to him,
faithfully.
Hon. Mr. McDougall (North Lanark) said
he gathered from the remark made by the
Secretary of State for the Provinces that he
approved of what had been done by the gentleman employed to transmit despatches at
St.
Paul's, and intended to continue him in that
capacity, believing him to have been faithful to
his trust. He (Mr. McDougall) was here to say,
that he had very grave doubts upon that
matter, and if the House entered into a discussion of the subject he was prepared
to give his
reasons for those doubts. The hon. member for
Lambton said truly that that gentleman was a
most bitter and rabid anti-Canadian. He was
editor of almost the only paper in the United
States that justified the murder of Scott, and
applauded the doings of the rebels at Red
River. Even the New York
Herald had abandoned that cause, and yet the St. Paul's
Press
still approved of it. He (Mr. McDougall) was
amazed to find the hon. gentleman justifying
his conduct, and approving what he had done.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said that the
Secretary of State for the Provinces stated no
such thing. He simply stated that he believed
that Mr. Wheelock transmitted faithfully all
despatches sent through his hands. He (Sir
John) knew this, because all despatches and
papers sent through him by the Government
were acknowledged by the parties to whom
they were always sent. Under peculiar circumstances of that day, if they had not been
sent
through Mr. Wheelock, who was supposed to be
friendly to those on the other side of the lines,
they would very likely never have reached
their destination. The member for North
Lanark had himself received letters through
Mr. Wheelock in due course. But these exceptional times had long since passed away,
and
Government neither sent nor received any cor
1194 COMMONS DEBATES
April 26, 1870
respondence through Mr. Wheelock, since
many months back.
NEW TARIFF
On the House going into Committee of Ways
and Means,
Hon. Mr. Holton asked if it was proposed to
consider the clauses in concurrence as they had
been passed in Committee. He thought they
might as well take the discussion now on the
items as at any other time.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said it could not be
denied that there was a difficulty in bringing
down proposals for increased taxation, and
were not likely to give satisfaction. There was
no doubt that there was great discussion
regarding the 4th resolution, and numerous
remonstrances had reached him against that
resolution. It was his duty to receive a great
many deputations and letters on the subject
which he had submitted to his colleagues, and
he had to submit now certain resolutions to the
House. It would be most convenient to come at
once to the articles most strongly objected to,
and which had caused the strongest remonstrances, and those, moreover, which were
most open to objection. But there were other
reasons which led the Government to think it
right to abandon such a scheme. The duties
they were determined to abandon were those
on coal and on wheat, but not on flour. They
had also determined to propose an addition to
the original words of the resolution respecting
salt in the eighth resolution. They propose to
add the words "when imported from United
Kingdom or any British Possessions," the
words "or imported for the use of sea and gulf
fisheries," so that for these purposes it would
come in free. The next alteration was in the
fourth resolution, and it was a mere technical
one, the addition of the word "greater" which
had been omitted. The next alteration was the
correction of an error which had crept in accidentally as it was not intended to put
an extra
duty on Old Tom Gin, which was intended to
go with ordinary spirits. He proposed also to
take grease and grease scraps from the ten per
cent list. He proposed also on the eleventh
resolution to make such alterations as would
remove some, possibly not all the objections on
the subject of charges on goods. He proposed
striking out the words "on shipboard, at the
last place of shipment to Canada," and substitute the words "place where purchased,"
and in
the tenth line add after shipment to Canada,
the words "and the United States." As to the
duties on tobacco, great exception had been
taken to these and not without reason.
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