The Bill was read the second time.
RED RIVER
Hon. Mr. Cameron—I am exceedingly
anxious to know from the Government whether they have had any additional intelligence
from Fort Garry, and whether they are in a
position to give to the House any further information in respect to the barbarous
murder
which has so short a time since taken place
there. I am also desirous of knowing whether
the first Minister is in a position to inform the
House what the Government intend to do in
reference to that matter, as there has been no
subject since Confederation, or for many years
before, which has so agitated the whole of the
Dominion, and more particularly that portion
of it from which I come, than the whole question of the North-West, particularly connected
with the great tragedy so recently enacted. I
am quite aware that the Government of the
Dominion must necessarily have certain difficulties in reference to the question,
and there
must be probably a certain amount of reticence
connected with it. That we can all understand
and appreciate, but there are certain things
which the Government must be enabled to tell
this House, and which I shall expect and the
country will expect they will tell this House. It
is clear that the country still belongs to Great
Britain in an Imperial sense, and has not been
ceded over to us in the manner, which, at one
time, it was supposed it would be ceded. It is
therefore clear that the British Government
891
are in the first instance the parties who are
interested in bringing to a close any revolutionary movement, which may have taken
place there, and therefore we can naturally
understand why it would be that this Government should desire that the Imperial Government
would in the first place explain very
clearly and distinctly what it intends to do
before the Dominion Government should state
in the most explicit manner what its views
would be in reference to the question; but
although that is the case, and although we
know that the territory belongs to the Imperial
Government, there are certain responsibilities
which attach to our Government, and which
Government cannot by any possibility ignore,
and which we, the representatives of the
people of the Dominion, demand that they shall
not ignore in which we are all interested as
Canadians, and which require that we should
adopt a certain and determined course, (hear,
hear). There can be no doubt whatever, there
can be but one feeling, not merely amon st all
members of this House, but amongst l the
inhabitants of this country, that a barbarous
murder has taken place in that territory, (hear,
hear). That a man who has gone forth from
here under the belief, no doubt, that he would
be as well protected there as in any other part
of Her Majesty's Dominions, has suffered with
his life, because he has been loyal and true to
the flag of his country, and we cannot help
feeling that whatever the connection may be
between the British Government and the
Dominion Government in relation to the
manner in which what has taken place here
shall be accounted for, that we ourselves and
the Government have resting upon us, the responsibility which the people of this country
must require at their hands, totally irrespective of any action by the Imperial Government.
Not that I would for a single moment interfere
with the Imperial authority, but we must all
recollect the position which our Government
has taken. We must remember that we sent an
agent out to that Western Territory, with all
the preparations, and with a Commission to
take the place, of the Government of that Territory. We must remember that large numbers
of persons knowing perfectly well that that
Territory was soon to come under our jurisdiction, went there with the full belief
that they
would be as safe out in that Western Territory,
as they would be in the City of Ottawa, Montreal or Toronto, and that, therefore,
our Government and we ourselves did assure to those
people certain responsibilities, which by no
possibility can we get rid of, (hear, hear). Now,
Sir, what one desires to know is this—what are
the views of our Government in respect to this
matter? If the British Government are still
possessors of the territory because we have not
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COMMONS DEBATES
April 6th, 1870
paid over the three hundred thousand pounds
that we contracted to pay, if they are still
responsible for the due administration of law
and the protection of life in that country, if
they are the persons to put down insurrectionary movements, then, of course, it is
quite right
that we should have an opportunity of understanding and knowing that. If they require
that we should pay the three hundred thousand
pounds and that we should take upon ourselves
the responsibility, I say for one that I am
prepared to take my portion of the responsibility in saying, that in the dawning birth
of this
new Dominion that the life of one of our people
was worth three hundred thousand pounds
(cheers), and that we should not for one
moment allow, if it becomes necessary to assert
our authority, and if any question arose with
reference to our position with regard to that
and to whether the expenses were to be borne
by the Imperial Government or ourselves, that
we should be prepared to show that we are
enabled as a people—as we know in the opinion of some people, almost an independent
people—that we are ready to take our part in
defending not merely the property, but what is
of more importance, the lives of our people,
against any attempt which may be made by
any insurrectionary party which may spring
up in any part of the country, (hear, hear). And
what I think we ought to have, and what I
think we may fairly ask for, I and the gentlemen on this side of the House who are
in the
habit of supporting the Government, believing
that they have the interests of the Dominion at
heart, what we really require from them is to
know whether when these people have gone to
that territory under the idea that they were to
be protected, whether when these insurrectionists have taken up arms in the manner
that
they have done, whether when the difficulties
have arisen that have culminated in the barbarous murder of this man, when all these
things have taken place we would desire to
know whether the Government are determined, whatever may occur, to endeavour, so
far as in their power, to meet the exigencies of
the case and to exercise whatever influence
and power the Dominion may have, in order
that they may be so met, and we would desire
to know very clearly and distinctly, whether
any difficulty whatever is to be thrown in the
way, in reference to that; whether these people
who have gone out there are to consider themselves as protected; whether Government,
if
they are in a position to state so, are so ready
to assume the responsibility which may be cast
upon them; whether they are prepared to
follow up what must necessarily take place in
reference to this matter, and whether if these
self-styled deputies should come down here to
treat as if they were the ambassadors of a
893
civilized country, whether they are to be treated after the manner of truculent rebels
who
have not merely demanded what they call a
Bill of Rights, which we as their fellow countrymen would be perfectly willing to
give them
if they have any grievance under which they
suffer, but who have dared to steep their hands
in the blood of an unoffending man who came
from this country. If these men up there fancy
that they have rights in the soil, that they are
entitled to have all that property, that they
have a right to do with it as they please, and
that we are not to go there and that we have no
right in it whatever, and they are sending
down people to treat with us, as if they had the
right to treat with us, in a manner in which
they might say they would have, if they were
fairly coming before us with claims which we
might meet, but if these men are delegates
from those who with a self-styled and so-called
court-martial have dared to doom a man to
death, and thereby murdered him, I say I hope
that our Government will be in a position to
say, that although prepared to concede, as we
all hope that they will concede, everything
honourable and just to the people of that territory, that they will take care not
to treat with
men who come here with their hands red with
blood, red with the blood of an unoffending
fellow citizen; a man who went there with the
guarantee of the Government, under the belief
that everything would be rightly and properly
conducted, and who had laid down his life
because he believed that the same power which
protected the poor captive in Abyssinia, would
protect the free man in Red River. Now, I hope
that the hon. Minister will give us an answer
that will set the feelings of the people at rest,
knowing as he does that the feelings of the
people of the country is excited to a red hot
heat, (cheers).
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—My hon.
friend commenced his remarks by asking the
Government and myself, whether we had any
later news to give relating to this deplorable
event, the murder of this man, than we had
when I addressed the House last on the subject. I have simply to state that we have
no
further intelligence, but the intelligence is
complete as to the fact of the man having been
shot by a party of men calling themselves a
Court Martial. That the man was murdered
there can be no doubt. I stated that I would
have full information from the Commissioner,
who was sent on behalf of the Government on
a mission of conciliation, and for the purpose
of assisting Governor McTavish to restore
order. That gentleman is now in this city, and
is preparing a report, and so much of it as can
be properly laid before this House will be laid
on the table. I suppose that will be done in a
894
COMMONS DEBATES
April 6th, 1870
very short period. So much for the information.
The hon. gentleman asks me to give further
information as to the course the Government is
about to pursue. I can only say to my hon.
friend and to the House, and both he and the
House will fully appreciate the reticence which
I feel it my duty to observe in the matter, I can
only say that the Government are fully aware
of, and appreciate the gravity of the position,
and have been so through the whole of this
winter, and since the events which occurred
about the end of October, they understand and
fully appreciate the responsibility that rests
upon them. They have been in constant communication with Her Majesty's Government
on
the subject, and I may say that the two Governments are acting in accord and unison—
(hear, hear)—and with the one object in view,
that of retaining that country as a portion of
Her Majesty's Dominions, and of restoring law
and order therein. We are acting in complete
unison with Her Majesty's Government, and
the line of conduct has been settled upon. What
that line of conduct may be, must be for the
present withheld from the House. It would
simply be giving information at an improper
time, and it would soon arrive at improper
quarters. But I am glad to say that Her Majesty's Government are acting in accord
with us,
and have adopted our suggestions and have
approved of the course we have devised, and
that course I am sure will be carried out to a
successful completion at no distant day. Further I cannot say. It would be improper
for me
to say any more, and I am quite sure the House
will not ask nor expect me to say more. With
respect to the delegation the hon. gentleman
has spoken of, I can only say that if they arrive
here they will be received and heard, and there
will be attentive consideration given to whatever they may say in the matter. One
hon.
gentleman has spoken—and I see the press has
spoken in the same sense—as if this delegation
were coming from the persons who are the
instigators and accessories of the murder of
this man, and therefore should not be received.
I do not understand that there are any such
persons coming here, (hear, hear). There was a
meeting held, as the House and country knows,
months ago, composed of representatives elected of the resident inhabitants, both
English
and French. That meeting was held for the
purpose of conferring—you may call it a conference in fact—as to the state of the
country,
and what their claims should be before assenting to come into the Union. That body
I believe
was elected by the people, and was composed
of a respectable body of men as a whole. The
delegates I understand were selected by this
meeting, and you will at once see there can be
no assassin among them when I tell you that
Judge Black is at their head, a gentleman who
895
has presided at the court there of the largest
criminal and civil jurisdiction, and who enjoys
the confidence and respect of all parties—even
of the persons who are now insurgents. He is at
the head of the deputation, and any imputation
or insinuation that he could in any way
countenance any such outrage as that spoken
of, is, of course, out of the question. I may say
further, in order to show the character of the
delegation, and how it is esteemed by the
people there, that when Judge Black thought at
first that he could not come here in consequence of private and personal matters,
it was
settled that the Anglican Bishop of Rupert's
Land, Bishop Macrae, should go in his place. Of
course from his position it would be understood that he is a gentleman of the highest
character, and I believe he is regarded as an
honour to his Church and his profession. However, Judge Black found it possible to
come,
and, I believe, he will be here with the rest.
They will be heard; and so much importance, I
may say, is attached to the fact that this body
is coming here—this body of
quasi ambassadors—that Sir Stafford Northcote, who is Governor of the Hudson Bay Company,
is coming
out here for the very purpose of meeting them.
They will be heard, and their representations
will receive every consideration, and possibly
the result of the conference may be the subject
of discussion in this House before the end of
the present session. I do not know that it is
necessary, or that it would be proper or expedient for me to say anything more in
answer to
my hon. friend. If there is anything I have
omitted I will be very glad to supplement my
present statement.
Mr. Mackenzie—There are one or two points
upon which I would like further information.
When I asked the Government two days ago
the questions that have just been more fully
asked by the hon. member for Peel, I said I was
led to believe from the letters received, and
from information in the newspapers, that there
were still more prisoners confined there, and
that I had some apprehension for the safety of
these prisoners in the hands of such desperate
men as seem to have control of affairs there at
present. I have seen stated that this unfortunate gentleman who was murdered, asked
leave before his murder to take a farewell of
his fellow prisoners, and that at that time there
were forty-seven persons in prison. Now, the
hon. gentleman has not stated whether he has
any further information as to the fate of the
forty-seven, who were undoubtedly in prison
when this man was murdered. I asked that
question two days ago.
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COMMONS DEBATES
April 6th, 1870
Mr. Mackenzie—The answer given was, that
there would not be any definite information
until they had the report from Mr. Donald A.
Smith. I am very glad to hear that this Government and the Imperial Government are
in
accord in the determination to assert the
supremacy of the British Crown in that territory. But I have noticed a statement in
the telegraphic reports this morning that Mr. Monsell,
the Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies,
stated in his place in the English House of
Commons on Monday night, that the demands
made upon the Imperial Government for
Imperial troops to go to Red River, were then
under consideration of the Government,
(hear). So that it is quite evident that on
Monday night, at last, there is some discrepancy between Mr. Monsell's statement and
the
one the hon. gentleman opposite just made. Of
course I accept the statement just made, but I
mention this to show that there is some
misunderstanding.
Mr. Mackenzie—Very well, I am very glad
to hear it, (hear). With reference to the delegates I am bound to take the statement
of the
hon. gentleman, that Judge Black in coming, as
I have no information from the papers or
otherwise, but I fully endorse the sentiments
of the member for Peel regarding the two other
persons who are coming here, and who were so
intimately connected with the persons in rebellion, and I think they ought not to
be received.
We have first to vindicate the British law and
supremacy in that country before we can hold
communication with the people in rebellion. I
have seen it stated that Riel has been issuing
decrees and assuming supreme power—not
assuming the functions of a Provisional Government but the functions of a permanent
Government, and acting as if no election of delegates had taken place. I have seen
it stated that
two of the delegates were appointed actually
by force, that the inhabitants present were
overawed by those who had power at the
moment, and that the whole proceeding was
merely to gain time until they could obtain
assistance from the filibusters and others in
the United States, with whom we know they
have been in active communication since the
beginning of the insurrection. I wish to know
further from the hon. gentleman whether any
delay is to take place in forwarding the preparations that must be made—for there
must be
no squeamishness in this matter—until these
delegates should come here, until Sir Stafford
Northcote should come here, until there should
be ample time to discuss these matters with
these people, such delay as would prevent the
897
departure of the forces necessary, in order to
enforce order there. It is known now sir, that
navigation will soon open on the upper Lakes,
and within three or four weeks it will be possible for vessels to traverse Lake Superior
to
Thunder Bay; and I trust nothing will prevent
the execution by the Government of everything necessary to forward forces there at
the
earliest possible moment, (hear). This is a
matter, of course, in which I am aware the
Government have difficulties to contend with;
and I am quite disposed to make every allowance for those difficulties; and I hope
nothing
will prevent the Government adopting an energetic course, (hear).
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—With regard
to the statement in the telegraphic news
respecting the statement of Mr. Monsell, I can
merely say that the telegraph is not usually
very accurate. I do not know what explanations he may have made in the House of Commons,
and can only repeat what I have said,
that the two Governments are quite in accord
as to the policy pursued, and that policy is one
of action, (hear).
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—With regard
to the prisoners, I can only repeat the statement I made before. Mr. Smith understood
that
half of them had been discharged or were to be
discharged as soon as he left, and the remainder in a day or two.
Mr. Mackenzie—Have you any positive
information that they were discharged?
Mr. Mackenzie—Then does the Government
intend to delay active proceedings in the
meantime?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I have told
my hon. friend that the two Governments are
quite in accord, and that our policy is one of
action—(cheers)—and I think my hon. friend
ought to be satisfied with that. Judge Black
was coming down at once, and asked Mr. Smith
to make arrangements for him, and Mr. Smith
did make arrangements for him, sending conveyances en route. Mr. Smith left on the
19th of
March, and Judge Black was shortly to follow
him, but he did not make any arrangements for
the others, as they did not ask him. He had
made arrangements for conveyance to St. Paul,
and from St. Paul still further this way.
898 COMMONS DEBATES April 6th, 1870
Hon. Sir A. T. Galt—Has any information
been received of Judge Black's arrival at St.
Paul? Mr. Smith left St. Paul a number of days
ago, and it is possible that these gentlemen
hearing of this deplorable event, will not now
come at all. I think while this House is in
session, it is absolutely necessary that the Government should before the House closes,
put
the House in full possession of the course it
proposes to take. I can quite understand that a
certain amount of reticence is absolutely
necessary and is desirable, but at the same
time when the representatives of the people
are here assembled, I think the Government
cannot with any propriety ask that this question should remain over until Parliament
rises,
for we are told that Parliament may rise shortly, and that the Government intend to
bring it
to a close as speedily as possible. I think we
should have the assurance that whatever
course is pursued, this House should be
informed of it. I think there can no doubt
whatever that the Rubicon has been passed, by
the execution, the homicide of Scott, and as
these individuals have appealed to force, my
conviction is that force must be resorted to. For
my own part there is no one more willing to
meet any reasonable complaint or remove any
reasonable misapprehension that these people
may be labouring under, but I do think that
when, without any provocation, as far as we
can judge from the information before us, they
have slain men, the responsibility now rests
with our Government, with the Imperial Government and with us (hear), and that we
cannot divest ourselves of that responsibility
by simple acquiescence with what the Government may consider right, (hear). I think
the
Government should give the House an opportunity of affirming or disapproving the policy
they may see fit to adopt, (hear).
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—Of course the
Government is in the hands of the House, and
any hon. member can bring this subject up
whenever he pleases. We must make such
efforts as we think it our duty to do, we must
take such a course and abide the consequences
of approbation or disapprobation.
Hon. Sir A. T. Galt—I hope the hon. gentleman does not misunderstand me. I only wish to
know if the Government would announce their
policy before the House rises.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I really hope
and believe that before this Parliament rises,
matters will be in such a state that the Government can, without injury to public
interests,
but rather in promotion of public interests,
take, as it were, the House into our confidence,
899
if I may use such an expression, and show
what the policy of the Government is, (hear).
Of course events changing every day may
change the course this Government now think
fit to pursue. I think if the Government do not
make a full statement to the House before the
prorogation, they are bound to make such a
statement as will meet the approbation of the
House, (hear).
The matter was then dropped.
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