The Speaker took the chair at three o'clock.
PROVINCE OF MANITOBA
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—I rise, sir
with the consent of the House, to submit the
result of our deliberations for the framing of a
constitution for the country heretofore known
as Rupert's Land and the North-West Territory. In moving for leave to introduce this
Bill, of
which I have given notice, I may premise by
stating that there has been a discussion going
on as to whether we should have a Territory or
a Province. The answer we made on behalf of
the Canadian Government was that such a
thing as a Territory was not known to the
British colonial system, that the expression
was not recognized, that the expression was
Colony or Province, and that we thought it
would be better to adhere to the old and well
known form of expression—well known to us
as Colonists of the Empire—and not bring a
new description into our statute book. It was
not, of course, a matter of any serious importance whether the country was called
a Province or a Territory. We have Provinces of all
sizes, shapes and constitutions; there are very
few Colonies with precisely the same constitution in all particulars, so that there
could not
be anything determined by the use of the word.
Then the next question discussed was the
name of the Province. It was thought that was
a matter of taste and should be considered with
reference to euphony and with reference also
as much as possible to the remembrance of the
original inhabitants of that vast country. Fortunately the Indian languages of that
section
1298
of the country give us a choice of euphonious
names and it is considered proper that the
Province which is to be organized, shall be
called Manitoba. The name Assiniboia, by
which it has hitherto been called, is considered
to be rather too long, involving confusion, too,
between the river Assiniboine and the Province Assiniboia. I suppose, therefore, there
will
be no objection to the name that has been fixed
upon, which is euphonious enough in itself,
and is an old Indian name, meaning "The God
who speaks—the speaking God." There is a
fine lake there called Lake Manitoba, which
forms the western boundary of the Province. A
subject of very great importance, which
engaged much of our consideration, was the
settlement of the boundaries of the Province
we are organizing. It is obvious that that vast
country could not be formed into one Province.
It is obvious that the Dominion Government
and the Dominion Parliament must retain, for
Dominion purposes, the vast section of that
country, which is altogether or nearly without
inhabitants, and that the Province must be
confined to the more settled country that now
exists. We found happily that there was no
great difficulty in regard to this matter, that
there was no discussion upon the subject, and I
may read a description of the boundaries that
have been settled upon. "The region which is to
form the new Province of Manitoba commences at a point on the frontier of the United
States Territory, 96 degrees West of Greenwich, and extends to a point 98 degrees
and 15
minutes West, being bounded on the South by
49th parallel of latitude, and on the North by
latitude 50 degrees and 30 minutes." He here
placed a map on the table showing the boundaries of the new Province and the members
gathered round to examine it.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—Eleven thousand square miles. It is a small Province as the
House will observe, but yet it contains the
principal part of the settlements which are
ranged, as those who have studied the matter
know, along the banks of Red River and the
banks of Assiniboine from the point of their
confluence at or near Fort Garry up westward
towards Lake Manitoba. One of the clauses of
the Bill which I propose to lay before the
House, but which is not yet in such a position
as to go into the printer's hands preparatory to
the second reading, provides that such portions
of the North-West Territory, as are not included in this Province, shall be governed
as an
unorganized tract by the Lieutenant Governor
of Manitoba, under a separate Commission
1299
under the Great Seal of the Dominion, and that
until they are settled and organized they shall
be governed by Orders in Council.
Mr. Mackenzie—Does the Bill provide a
Constitution for that territory?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—No. It simply
provides that the Lieutenant Governor of
Manitoba shall be Governor of the remaining
portion of the Territory under directions of
Orders in Council, and action upon separate
commission issued under the Great Seal. In
settling the Constitution of the Province the
question of how far representative institutions
should be properly conferred at this time has
been fully discussed. The House knows that
this subject was discussed last summer by the
press in all parts of Canada, and that there was
a good deal of objection that the Bill of last
Session, provisional as it was, and intended to
last only a few months, did not provide representative institutions for the people
of that
Territory. That Bill provided that the Lieutenant Governor should have an Executive
Council, and that that Council should have power to
make laws, subject, of course, to the veto
power, the paramount power of the Governor
General here. It was passed simply for the
purpose of having something like an organization ready, something like the rudiments
of a
Government, from the time the Territory was
admitted into the Dominion, it being understood that the Act should continue in force
only until the end of the present session of
Parliament. On the introduction of that Bill by
the Government, it was received in that particular, and I think in every particular,
with
the almost unanimous sanction and approval of
Parliament. The Government felt they were
not in a position from acquaintance with the
circumstances of the country and wants of its
people, to settle anything like a fixed constitution upon the Territory. They thought
it, therefore, better that they should merely pass a
temporary Act to last for a few months providing for the appointment of a Lieutenant
Governor, for which office my hon. friend from
North Lanark was selected, who, when he
arrived upon the spot, would have an opportunity of reporting upon the requirements
of the
country, and after discussing the matter with
the principal men of the settlement, to suggest
what kind of institutions were best suited to
those requirements. Unfortunately no opportunity was offered for entering into that
discussion or getting that information. One result,
however, of the enquiry that was instituted in
this country, was to pour a flood of light upon
the Territory, and I have no doubt every hon.
member of this House has taken advantage of
1300 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
it so as to enable him, with a greater degree of
certainty, to approach the subject of what the
Constitution ought to be. Besides that we have
discussed the proposed Constitution with such
persons who have been in the North-West as
we have had an opportunity of meeting, and
the result has been as I will shortly describe. In
the first place, as regards the representation of
the Province of Manitoba in the Dominion Parliament, the proposition of the Government
is
that the people of the Province shall be represented in the Senate by two members
until the
Province shall have a population at a decennial
census of 50,000. From thenceforth the people
there shall have representation in the Senate
of three members; and subsequently, when the
population shall amount to 75,000, they shall
have representation of four members. That will
give them the same representation in the upper
House of the Dominion Legislature as has been
proposed for Prince Edward's Island, and
agreed to by the representatives of that Province at the Quebec conference—Prince
Edward's Island being the smallest of the
Provinces, having a population of about 85,000.
The Bill does not provide for any increase of
numbers beyond four. It is not likely that, in
our day at any rate, the Province will have a
population which will entitle it to more. With
respect to its representation in the House of
Commons, it is proposed that it shall have four
members in this House—the Governor General
having, for that purpose, power to separate and
divide the whole of the Province into four
electoral districts, each containing as nearly as
possible an equal number of the present community of settlers. The executive power
of the
Province will, of course, as in all the other
Provinces of the Dominion, be vested in a Lieutenant Governor, who shall be appointed
like
the other Lieutenant Governors, by Commission from the Governor General, under the
Great Seal of the Dominion. He shall have an
Executive Council, which shall be composed of
seven persons, holding such offices as the Lieutenant Governor shall, from time to
time, think
fit, and, in the first instance, shall not exceed
five in number. The meetings of the Legislature until otherwise ordered by the Legislature
itself, shall be held at Fort Garry, or within a
mile of it. With respect to the Legislative body,
there was considerable difficulty and long discussion whether it should consist of
one chamber or two; whether, if one chamber, it should
be composed of the representatives of the
people and of persons appointed by the Crown,
or Local Government, or whether they should
be severed and the two chambers constituted—
all these questions were fully discussed. After
mature consideration, it was agreed that there
should be two chambers. I see my hon. friend
(Hon. Mr. McDougall) laughs, but, being a true
1301
liberal, he will not object to the people having
a voice in the settlement of their own Constitution and to determine whether they
shall have
one or two chambers or even three if it suits
their purpose to have them. It is proposed then
to have two chambers, but the Legislative
Council is not a very formidable one. It is to be
composed in the first place of seven members.
After the expiration of four years it may be
increased to twelve, but not more than that
number. The object of making that provision is
this, that we could not well have a smaller
Legislative body than seven; and yet it might
be well that the Government of the day—the
Lieutenant Governor having a responsible
Ministry—have the power of meeting the difficulty arising from a possible deadlock
between the two chambers—the Legislative
Assembly and the Legislative Council. It is
therefore proposed that after the end of the
first four years—after the first Parliament of
the Province, the Lieutenant Governor may if
he thinks proper upon the advice of his Executive Council, who have the confidence
of the
people and of their representatives, increase
the number up to twelve. The Legislative
Assembly shall be composed of a body of
twenty-four members—the Lieutenant Governor dividing the Province for that purpose
into
twenty-four Electoral Districts having due
regard to the various communities into which
the settlement is at present divided. All these
clauses and stipulations are, of course, subject
to alterations by the people themselves, except
so far as they relate to the appointment of the
Lieutenant Governor, which, of course, rests
upon the same authority as in the other Provinces of the Dominion. In all other respects
they may alter their Constitutions as they
please. It is provided in the Bill that all the
clauses of the British North America Act,
excepting as altered by the Bill itself, or
excepting those clauses which apply only to
one or two Provinces, and not to the whole of
the Provinces, shall apply to the new Province.
The Bill contains various other clauses with
which I will not now trouble the House
because they refer to matters of no great interest, except as they are requisite to
carry on the
machinery of the Executive and Legislative
bodies. Until the Legislature otherwise provides, the qualification of voters for
members
both of the House of Commons and Local
Legislatures shall be the same as provided by
the Confederation Act for the District of
Algoma. I think the House will agree with me
that no other qualification can be provided.
The clause runs that every British subject who
has attained the age of 21 years, and who is and
has been a householder for one year, shall have
a right to vote. The duration of the Legislative
Assembly shall be four years, as in the other
Provinces.
1302 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald—We have said
nothing of that in the Bill. With respect to
pecuniary clauses of the Bill it is provided that
as Manitoba has fortunately no debts it shall
be entitled to be paid by and receive from
Canada by half-yearly payments a sum which
is to be ascertained in the same way as the sum
settled was on Newfoundland last session—
that is, fixing the whole of the population at
15,000, and at that rate comparing the difference between that population and the
population of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, any
body can ascertain the amount payable to them
per head, namely, $27.27. The Bill then proposes that the same annual subsidy of 80
cents
per head of the population, estimating it at
15,000, shall be paid as in other Provinces, and
that that rate shall continue until the population is 400,000 also as in other Provinces.
There
is the further provision that the sum of $30,000
shall be paid for the support of the Government. Although it is not at all required
that the
next clause should be in the Act, yet it is
inserted for the same reasons as it was inserted
in the Act respecting Newfoundland, in order
to satisfy the people that certain services will
be provided for, those services being thrown on
the Dominion Government by the Confederation Act, such as the salary of the Lieutenant
Governor, postal service, collection of Customs, etc. There are also provisions to
satisfy
the mixed population of the country inserted in
the Bill for the same reason, although it will be
quite in the power of the Local Legislature to
deal with them. They provide that either the
French or English language may be used in the
proceedings of the Legislature, and that both
of them shall be used in records and journals of
both Chambers. That provision as far as the
Province of Quebec is concerned, is contained
in the Union Act. With respect to the lands that
are included in the Province, the next clause
provides that such of them as do not now
belong to individuals, shall belong to the
Dominion of Canada, the same being within
boundaries already described. There shall,
however, out of the lands there, be a reservation for the purpose of extinguishing
the
Indian title, of 1,200,000 acres. That land is to
be appropriated as a reservation for the purpose of settlement by half-breeds and
their
children of whatever origin on very much the
same principle as lands were appropriated to
U. E. Loyalists for purposes of settlement by
their children. This reservation, as I have said,
is for the purpose of extinguishing the Indian
title and all claims upon the lands with the
limits of the Province. There is a question,
however, which, although small in itself,
1303
excites a great deal of interest among the
purely white inhabitants, the descendants of
the Scotch and English settlers, who are not
half-breeds and do not come within this category. It is, perhaps, not known to a majority
of
this House that the old Indian titles are not
extinguished over any portion of this country,
except for two miles on each side of the Red
River and the Assiniboine. The lands that have
been granted by deed or license of occupation
by the Hudson's Bay Company, run from the
water or river bank on each side for two miles.
But from a practice that has arisen from necessity, and that has been recognized by
the local
laws there, in the rear of each of these farms or
tracts of land held by the farmers or settlers,
there is a right of cutting hay for two miles
immediately beyond their lots. That is a well
understood right. It is absolutely required by
these people and excites in them equal interest.
The entire extent and value of those rights
cannot be well established or fixed here, and it
is therefore proposed to invoke the assistance
of the Local Legislature in that respect, and to
empower it to provide, with the express sanction of the Governor General, for the
use in
common of such lands by those inhabitants
who may wish to avail themselves of it. My
hon. friend, (Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier)
reminds me of the question of the confirmation
of the legal occupation of the people there. It is
so obviously the interest of the people of this
country to settle that Territory as quietly as
possible, that it would be a most unwise policy
for a new Government to create any difficulties as to the rights of property—it would
be
most unwise to allow those difficulties to arise
which might spring from one man having a
title to a freehold, while his neighbor would
only have to say he held under a lease of
occupation. But as these settlers are not
numerous, and it is of great importance that
they should be satisfied, it is proposed to insert
a clause in the Bill, confirming all titles of
peaceable occupation to the people now actually resident upon the soil. But in the
absence of
necessary information here, it is proposed to
invoke the aid and intervention, the experience
of the Local Legislature upon this point, subject to the sanction of the Governor
General.
The Government hope and believe that this
measure or a measure involving the principle
which I just mentioned will be satisfactory to
the people of all classes and races in that country. This Bill contains very few provisions,
but
not too few for the object to be gained, which is
the quiet and peaceable acceptance of the new
state of things by the mass of the people there
and the speedy settlement of the country by
hardy emigrants from all parts of the civilized
world. While, Sir, we believe that this measure
will receive the acceptance of the people of the
1304 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
North-West, that it will be hailed as a boon and
convincing proof of the liberality of the people
and the Legislature of the Dominion, while we
believe it will have that effect, it is quite clear
that order must be restored; that peace must be
kept in that country; and that the Government,
which in future is to obtain control there, must
be respected. It is necessary, also, that the fears
of an Indian war and foreign aggression, which
have been raised, very naturally, in the minds
of the people of that country, from recent
unhappy events, should be allayed. For all
these reasons it is fitting and proper that a
force should be there to cause law and order to
be respected. I am glad to say that events have
recently resulted in an arrangement, by which,
for the purposes I have mentioned, and in no
hostile spirit, but with the desire, and the
resolve at the same time, to establish law, and
peace, and order—an arrangement, I say, has
been made between Her Majesty's Government
and the Government of Canada for the
despatch of an expedition. That expedition will
be a mixed one, comprised partly of Her Majesty's regular troops, and partly of Canadian
Militia, and from all those whom we have had
an opportunity of seeing from the North-West,
we are told that a force sent in that spirit, and
commanded by an officer of Her Majesty's service, under Her Majesty's sanction, will
be
received not only with kindness, but with gladness, and that the people will be glad
to retain
them much longer than as a force there will be
any necessity for their staying. For so soon as
these unfortunate feelings of fear and jealousy
are removed, it will be of course proper that a
force should be on as economical and limited a
scale as due regard for peace and order will
permit. These arrangements must of course be
submitted to Parliament, and a vote of the
House sanctioning the necessary expenditure
obtained. For this object, I have no doubt, such
a vote will be obtained. The force will be comprised of about one-fourth of Her Majesty's
regular troops, and three-fourths Canadian
Militia, and the expenditure will be borne in
the same proportion, Her Majesty's Government paying one-fourth of the expenditure
and
the Dominion three-fourths. My hon. friend
beside me (Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier)
reminds me that since the written arrangement
was entered into, which I have just mentioned,
a proposition was made to increase Her Majesty's contingent by perhaps 140, making
the
number of regular troops about 300, the balance being made up of Canadian Militia.
This
Militia was called upon to volunteer from different districts, and such has been the
alacrity
displayed, that if a force was proposed to
assume the proportion of an army there would
be no trouble in getting the men. Happily that
necessity does not, I am fain to believe, exist. It
1305
was only on Saturday that the final arrangement with respect to this force was carried
out,
and the House therefore could not any earlier
than now receive this information. On Saturday the Order in Council was passed embodying
the provisions I have mentioned. The cable
has been in active operation on this subject for
some considerable time, but it is only within a
few days that the final arrangements I have
indicated were made. When this measure
comes up for the second reading, and when the
resolutions are proposed in Committee of the
Whole, of course, explanations will be given in
full detail upon every possible head of expenditure. I now move the first reading
of the Bill.
Mr. Mackenzie said it was manifestly impossible to discuss the Bill at that time, but he
looked upon the whole proposal of the Government as one that was open to great objection,
and that the whole course taken in the North-
West matter was one exceedingly disastrous to
the country. The House was informed at the
beginning of the session that the Government
had declined taking possession of the country,
and had not paid the amount agreed to with
the Hudson's Bay Company, in order to throw
the expense of settling the disputes on the
Imperial Government, and to force them to
take possession for us, and to hand it over to us
as a new purchase. He had always looked upon
the Territory as their own, and the payment as
a payment simply to obtain a quit claim deed
to us of that Territory. He looked upon the
proposal of the Government as most reprehensible, and calculated to bring our Government
and people into dispute with Imperial statesmen, as a refusal, under the circumstances,
they had no right to make. He was now convinced, after much careful examination of
the
evidence of every one who had come from that
Territory, that had the proposition been carried out, with good faith, that insurrection,
with all its consequent troubles, disasters and
murder would have been avoided. In consequence of this conduct of the Government,
they had been threatened with a war of races
and nations, and now as the result of all this
political tergiversation and bad faith, the pitiable compensation of the Imperial
Government
being willing to pay one-quarter part of the
expenses attending the restoration of Government. This showed more than anything he
could name the results of the policy the Government pursued, and the want of national
faith which had characterized the Government
in their dealing. With regard to the Government of the country he must of course examine
the Bill in detail before he could venture even
to give an opinion as to its merits, but it did
seem a little ludicrous to establish a little municipality in the North-West of 10,000
square
1306 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
miles—about the size of two or three counties
in Ontario—with a population of 15,000 people,
having two Chambers, and a right to send two
members to the Senate and four to the House
here, (laughter). The whole thing had such a
ludicrous look that it only put one in mind of
some of the incidents in Gulliver's Travels. It
may be on more close investigation that more
palliating circumstances might be brought to
light for this extraordinary Constitution, but
at the present moment he could only say that
he looked upon it as one of the most preposterous schemes that was ever submitted
to the
Legislature. There were one or two matters in
Sir John A. Macdonald's statement to which he
would refer. He had told the House about the
land policy, no further than this, that lands in
occupation held under license or agreement of
the Hudson's Bay Company, were to be
retained by those in possession or the present
local authorities, while the Dominion are to
exercise control over the remainder of the Territory. A certain portion is to be set
aside to
settle Indian claims and another portion to
settle Indian claims that the half-breeds have.
But these half-breeds were either Indians or
not, (hear). They were not looked upon as
Indians, some had been to Ottawa, and given
evidence, and did not consider themselves
Indians. They were regularly settled upon
farms, and what the object could be in making
some special provision for them that was not
made for other inhabitants was more than he
could well understand. They were also told
that that clause in the Bill was to affirm all
grants of lands, licenses and other claims
granted by the Hudson's Bay Company. They
were unable to pronounce an opinion upon the
particular kind of claims embraced, but if his
information was correct the Hudson's Bay
Company had dealt with a certain portion of
the lands in that Territory in a way which we
could not possibly justify nor recognize. If they
had so dealt with lands as to bestow on certain
corporations whether secular or religious, or
tracts of land that would interfere with the
settlement of the country—that question had
to be met by the House if the Government had
not had the moral courage to deal with it,
(hear). He had no hesitation in saying that the
statement made by the Premier was in that
respect most unsatisfactory or at best exceedingly incomplete, (hear). He had seen
it stated
in papers that a gentleman who had been
employed under the Lieutenant Governor—
Mr. Mackenzie said that he was being
employed by the Government to purchase
stores and organizing a corps of mounted
police, but they had received no statement on
1307
the point by the honourable gentleman, and in
the absence of any answers he would not comment upon the fact at present. There was
another point to which the honourable gentleman had not referred. He had not said
whether
the Government had paid the money to the
Hudson's Bay Company. Without waiting for a
formal answer might he ask that information
now?
Mr. Mackenzie was glad of it; and would be
ready to support the Government in it, and
could only regret that it was not made sooner,
(hear). He trusted that the Government would
bring down such a statement as to the claims
which were to be recognized in the clauses of
the Bill, because in absence of the knowledge
as to the extent of these claims it was manifestly impossible to pass any such claims.
Everything must be done so as to retain the
liberty of every class and creed of Her Majesty's subjects on the same footing and
that no
one shall have any special claims or privileges
recognized in that new Territory. He would
look with very grievous apprehension on anything that would introduce into that new
Territory the divisions which were for so many
years so disastrous in our own country (hear),
and which kept many of the denominations
concerned in these disputes in a state of
internecine warfare, which produced results so
disastrous to society generally, and particularly to the churches engaged. Anything
that had
the effect of preventing this, we must insist on
here, and that no legislation shall be initiated
by this House, which has a tendency to initiate,
permit or perpetuate anything of that sort.
(Cheers.) If this was provided for it would of
course obviate some of the objections to many
clauses of the Bill. With regard, however, to the
excessive expenditure which was to be
imposed upon the Dominion by the arrangements of the Bill, it involved an amount of
debt
of $416,500.
Mr. Mackenzie—Yes. There would then be
$12,000 to make up the 50 cents per head, and in
addition the Government propose to pay annually $30,000, for Local Government. He
could
scarcely conceive that that amount was neces
1308 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
sary. (Hear.) He thought if the amount was
capitalized it would admirably provide for the
interest of the Province. Roads were not
required there as they were in other districts,
and the expenses for building would not at all
compare with that which was imposed on
larger Provinces. If they were to carry on Government economically, it must be in
the shape
rather of one large Municipal Council, than a
Provincial Government. He should discuss the
Bill more particularly when they had it before
them, but it was necessary that the House
should be in possession of all information the
Government had had in preparing to discuss
the measure. It was certainly unfair, that certain members of the House should be
in possession of M. Thibault's report, which he understood, had been in print a fortnight.
Hon. Mr. Morris said it had not been even
sent to the printers a fortnight ago.
Mr. Mackenzie said, at any rate he had
known it was in the possession of members,
and the way the House was treated in this
matter was only on a par with their treatment
from first to last. In the whole question, the
conduct of the Government was most extraordinary, and he could not refrain from charging
the Government with having, by their misconduct of this matter, thrown an enormous
expense on the country, brought the Government into disrepute with the Imperial authorities
(hear) and that, in refusing to keep faith
in carrying out an agreement for a territory,
which we have always regarded as our own,
they have plunged us into expenses which we
cannot possibly conceive, (hear).
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said it would
have been more opportune to have taken the
objections at the second reading, rather than
now. He himself would not enter on the merits
of the Bill, but make a few prefatory observations in answer to those of the member
for
Lambton. He had found fault with the Constitution of the Territory, and there being
two
Houses for so small a portion of the Territory.
He referred to Prince Edward Island, with its
population of only 85,000, and an area of only
1,300,000 acres, which, from the first, had a
political organization and all the machinery of
a Government, and to New Brunswick, which,
at the time of its separation from Nova Scotia,
had a population not larger than that of Nova
Scotia. Manitoba was the key to the whole
territory, and when they had defined its limits
they had done a good work. This Bill had, as it
1309
were, disclosed the policy of the Government,
for it was evident there was room between
Ontario and the Rocky Mountains for several
Provinces, and Manitoba was made the model
or starting point for the Provinces to be erected
to the Pacific Ocean. As to the objection that
there was too large a subsidy, he said the new
Province was entitled to be placed on the same
footing as any other. If the people had waited
till they were 50,000 or 75,000, instead of being
entitled to $21,000 a year from the Government,
they would have been entitled to double or
perhaps treble that amount. There was room in
the Territory for a million of inhabitants, and
yet for some time all the expenditure for this
would be only $21,000 for local wants, and a
subsidy of $30,000 a year for the Local Government. The land, except 1,200,000 acres,
was
under the control of the Government, and
these were held for the purpose of extinguishing the claims of the half-breeds, which
it was
desirous not to leave unsettled, as they had
been the first settlers, and made the Territory.
These lands were not to be dealt with as the
Indian reserves, but were to be given to the
heads of families to settle their children. The
policy, after settling these claims, was to give
away the land so as to fill up the country. As it
did so emigration would go westward, fill up
other portions of the Territory, and so the
grand scheme of Confederation would be carried out. Instead of, as in Newfoundland,
where they were to pay $150,000 a year for
these lands, those in the North-West had been
given up for nothing. It must be in the contemplation of the members of the House
that these
could be used for the construction of the British Pacific Railway from the East to
the West,
and yet the member for Lambton complained
of the grant of $30,000 at the beginning of the
existence of the Province. Then they were to
get 80 cents a head till the population amounted to 400,000, and at the greatest estimate
there
never would be more than $425,000 a year ever
going to that Province, and that not for many
years hence, but the sooner the better, as the
greater would be the contributions to the exchequer. The population was now only 15,000,
but the consumption was not for them alone,
but for 200,000 Indians, who consumed an
immense quantity of dutiable articles. After a
few other observations, in which he said he
would not enter into the question of the
appointment of an officer of constabulary, he
stated that he believed, when the member for
Lambton read the Bill carefully, he would
recognize the wisdom of its provisions.
1310 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Mr. Mackenzie said he had not entered into
any explanation as to the mounted police, and
the appointment of Captain Cameron.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said that it
was intended to have a body of mounted rifles
to protect the people from the chance of an
Indian war. Under the beneficient rule of the
Hudson's Bay Company there was peace in the
Territory, while across the line there were frequent wars, and the Indians were shot
down by
emigrants going West—shot down ruthlessly.
As the expectation was that there would be a
large influx of emigrants from Europe or from
Canada, and there was a fear that emigrants
from the American States, accustomed to deal
with the Indians as enemies, would be shooting
them down and causing great disturbances, the
necessity arose to have a small but active force
of cavalry to act as mounted police, so that
they could move rapidly along the frontier to
repress disturbances; and it was not proposed
to make the force more than 200 men. They
would be drilled as cavalry, or rather as
mounted riflemen, and be disciplined as a military body, but act as constabulary.
Such a force
would be amply sufficient for the purpose, and
be enough to secure order.
Mr. Mackenzie said that the question as to
whether Captain Cameron was employed had
not been answered. If he was raising a force,
how and where was he doing so?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said Captain
Cameron had not received a commission. The
Government had employed Mr. McMicken and
Mr. Coursol, as Police Commissioners, the
latter of whom was engaging men in Lower
Canada speaking French, and able to read and
write, and to speak both French and English if
possible. He intended to raise 50 men in
Canada altogether, and 150 more in the Territory, commingling the different races,
as had
been done in India so successfully. It was the
best force that could be raised, and by the
commingling no predominance would be given
to either.
Mr. Mackenzie said he was glad to find that
the Government had not employed Capt.
Cameron.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said he did not
say that. He said that a Commission had not
been issued. He might say, however, that he
was a most efficient officer.
Mr. Mackenzie said he might be in his own
place, but not in the position proposed. He had
a further question to ask. A number of persons
had lost their all in these disturbances, and had
1311
all their goods seized and used. Were they to
receive compensation?
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said he did not
know what he meant. He did not see how this
House could deal with such a question. That
might be a matter to be settled in England.
Mr. Mackenzie did not see how they could
go to England for compensation. He presumed
they would not deny some remedy should be
provided.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said they had
not yet reached that point, as this Bill was
simply one for the Government of the country.
The other was a separate matter, and would be
so considered either here or in England, but it
was premature to discuss it now.
Mr. Godin asked if the Constitution was to
be submitted to the people before being passed.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said he spoke with
some reluctance on account of the position he
had unfortunately held with respect to the Territory. With respect to the Bill, he
might say he
was both pleased and displeased. Pleased at its
having been brought down, and displeased at
its unsatisfactory character. It must be displeasing to every one to know that the
bargain
settled with the three Governments, had been
refused to be carried out on the pretence of the
motive, which it was said actuated the Government. It was known that the reason given
was
that the Government desired to compel the
Imperial Government to put them in peaceable
possession of the country. They had been so far
successful that the Imperial Government had
promised to send 200 or 300 troops into the
country and to pay one-fourth of the expenses.
He apprehended there would be some condition
attached to that agreement which would probably lessen its value to this country.
Were they
to understand that the Imperial Government
agreed to pay one-fourth of all the expense, no
matter what might be the extravagance of our
Government? Were they to bear one-fourth of
the expense of constructing boats, many of
which were constructed in Lower Canada upon
the miserable rule that everything done must
be distributed between French and English?
The transportation of these boats to Collingwood would cost as much as the boats themselves.
Were they to understand that the
Imperial Government agreed to bear one
1312 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
fourth of that extravagance? He believed not.
With regard to the leading features of the Bill
they did not commend themselves to his judgment. People were not prepared for, and
did
not want so cumbrous and intricate a system of
Government, and it was absurd to impose it
upon them. A cheap, simple and direct system
of Government such as that provided for in the
Bill of last Session would answer every purpose, and would meet the almost universal
approval of the people. He objected to the
system of two Chambers, and was astonished
to find the system proposed for Red River in
view of its expense in Quebec and the success
of the one chamber system in Ontario. He
hoped the Government would consent to
change in this respect. In looking over the map
of the new Province laid on the table, he
noticed that an important Canadian settlement
containing some four or five hundred families,
namely: Portage la Prairie, had been left
beyond the limits of the Provinces, though the
boundary line diverged 15 minutes to take in a
small "Roman Catholic Mission." It was just as
well there should be a little plain speaking on
this point at an early day. It was known by the
Government and the country that the rebellion
in the North-West originated with the Roman
Catholic priesthood ("no, no," from
French
members). That fact was substantiated by the
Commissioners of the Government who had
been sent to that country, The priesthood
desired to secure certain advantages for themselves, their Church or their people.
And they
advised their people to take the course they
did. These facts would be proved beyond doubt
if the House would grant a Committee of
enquiry. He believed the respectable, wealthy,
intelligent portion of the Roman Catholic
population were opposed to that course and
loyal to this Government, and would willingly
accept the Government that was provided for
in the Bill of last session. He warned the Government that amendments would be proposed
to this Bill. With regard to the claims of loyalists from the Territory, he understood
the Minister of Militia to say that they must look to
England.
Hon. Sir George-É. Cartier said he had not
stated that. He had mentioned when the Minister of Justice was speaking that these
claims
might fall on us or perhaps on England. He did
not say decidedly that they would have to be
settled by England.
1313
Hon. Mr. McDougall accepted the explanation, and went on to argue the justice of these
claims, and the necessity of their being attended to by the Government. The Imperial
Government were under no obligation to settle
these claims. He concluded by denouncing the
appointment of Captain Cameron to the head
of the police for Red River as the most unfortunate selection that could be made.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said the hon.
member for North Lanark seemed unable to
comprehend the policy of the Government.
With regard to the non-payment of the money,
he would only ask the House to consider the
position of the Government when the unfortunate interruption to the hon. gentleman's
entrance into the territory took place. They
should look at the season of the year and the
surrounding circumstances. What would have
been the consequences of the payment of the
money on the lst December last? The inevitable consequences would have been the
immediate transfer of the country to Canada.
(Hear.) They had been told by the press that
they should have sent up a military officer,
who would have gone to the country by railroad, as did the hon. gentleman, and entered
the country alone.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said the Government at once saw that at that season of the
year, in the first place, it was impossible that
Canada should take the government of that
country. It was essentially important, and
every day had made them more convinced of
the view they took, that without reference to
the paltry question of expenses, that we should
have the prestige of the Imperial Government
in getting up and sending an expedition there,
to establish the Queen's authority, instead of
leaving Canada to commence the war with that
people on its own account and on its own
responsibility, thereby inviting filibusters and
sympathizers from the neighbouring States to
come in and join them, and thus involve the
country in an expenditure of which no one
could have any conception.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said, when the
Government first heard of these circumstances, before the lamentable events which
subsequently occurred had taken place, they at
once took the very best means to allay the
discontent which existed more particularly
among a certain portion of the population. We
were unsuccessful because—he was sorry to
say it and regretted to have to go into that
1314 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
question—of the unfortunate mistake committed by the hon. gentleman.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks could readily
understand, and feel that it was his bounden
duty to stand up and defend himself. But if
things had been allowed to remain until the
Government of this country had been able to
prescribe a policy which was desirable under
the circumstances, if they had been allowed to
employ the agencies which they at once took
steps to employ, if Father Thibault had gone
up, and the proclamation never been issued,
and the force not been invited to go on, he was
perfectly certain that in a very few days
Father Thibault would have settled matters.
(Hear.) If the hon. gentleman had remained
quiet until he had known the views of the
Government, there would have been no difficulty whatever. It was not a question of
expediency. The time of paying the money was
the question. They thought that the right time
for paying the money was when the Queen's
authority had been restored. Then it was quite
right that quiet should be restored by a force
acting under the Imperial officers, and having
the prestige of our Sovereign, thus preventing
the appearance of its being a war between one
section of the Dominion and the people. It was
a view taken by the Government, it was not a
mere question of expenditure. If the territory,
of course, had been transferred to Canada, they
could not expect England to contribute any
share of the expenses. We have got to maintain
peace in our own territories, but under the
peculiar circumstances of the case, it was
important that the force should be essentially
an Imperial force and not a Canadian force.
(Hear.)
It being six o'clock the House rose for recess.
After recess,
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks resumed the
debate. He said he was bound to place on
record his opinion of the Act which had produced the most disastrous consequences
in the
Territory, that was the issue of the proclamation by the member for North Lanark,
when
sent as Governor of the Territory. The intentions of the Government were most liberal.
The
Legislature was only provisional in its nature
and they had sent one who had been a warm
advocate of the policy of acquiring that Territory to be settled in great part from
the four
older Provinces. The Government had given
instructions which in his (Sir Francis') judgment, no exception could be taken. His
object
1315
was to get there, to place himself in communication with all parties, to obtain all
the information possible and inform the Government
what kind of constitution was most suitable.
Notwithstanding what he conceived to be the
wise course taken by the Government, the
strongest opposition was offered by the leading
organ of the Opposition in Ontario. Every
means was taken to excite distrust in the
Canadian Government. It was said they
intended to ill-treat the inhabitants of that
country, that they had no intention to regard
their wishes, and he believed that a great deal
of the discontent was due to these efforts. He
was disposed to make every allowance for
errors of judgment in the performance of the
duties imposed on the member for North
Lanark. But when the Government as a Government expressed their disapproval of his
course which they firmly believed led to the
consequences which they had all seen, he could
not but deplore the action which led to such a
disastrous result. It was the duty of hon. members, and they could not but sympathize
with
those who were acting in that Territory in
sympathy with the Canadian Government, but
there could be no doubt they took a course
which led to evil results. Honourable members
talk of claims, but he could not see how the
Government could deal with claims which had
not been presented. No such claims had been
made but even if they had that was a question
entirely apart from that of the Bill brought in
by the Minister of Justice. It had nothing to do
with it, and it was unfortunate that the question should now be raised. He would deal
with
representations made by those persons peculiarly distinguished as Canadians, as opposed
to what some honourable gentlemen were
pleased to call the rebel party, but which he
would distinguish as the mixed French and
Indian race, chiefly Catholic in religion. Could
it be made clear to him that those against
whom the hon. gentleman protested had asked
exclusive privileges he could understand it.
But he had read a letter in one of the papers
to-day, addressed to the Governor General, and
signed James Lynch, a gentleman assuming,
and no doubt correctly assuming to represent
the wishes of a large portion of the population,
and one for whom he had the highest respect.
He had carefully read the letter, and had
endeavoured to see if there was any real grievance against these persons, or if the
Government had committed any error from the point
of view of those whom Dr. Lynch represented.
It had already come out in the course of the
discussion, that in all questions coming before
the Government, they had not considered the
question whether the delegates were representatives of the majority or minority. Admit
that they represented the minority; admit even
1316 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
that as alleged in the letter, they had been the
appointed by that gentleman, Mr. Riel (cries of
gentleman, and confusion). It was admitted
that one delegate did not represent him. That
was Judge Black who was brought to accept
the mission with great reluctance, his name
having been given as the letter states, as a sort
of sop to those not under Mr. Riel's influence.
Assume that all the statements made by Dr.
Lynch were correct and he would as if the Bill
was open to the objection of pressing on those
whom Dr. Lynch represented. What were the
points in contention? First, these delegates
would have desired—as stated in the Bill of
Rights—that they should have the whole lands
of Manitoba into their possession, that is into
the possession of the Local Government. What
he wanted to establish was simply this: that all
those identifying themselves with the Province
of Manitoba were all equally interested in getting all they could out of Canada whether
by
way of subsidy or otherwise. He did not understand that any of them were afraid of
elective
institutions. On the contrary they were quite
ready to assent to them. Put aside for the
moment the second chamber, and elective
institutions with an elective chamber as in
other Provinces, he was satisfied they would
not object to. His experience in the Dominion
Government satisfied him that the Governments of all the Provinces and the people
desired to get all they could out of the
Dominion.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said he excepted
neither Quebec nor Ontario. On the other hand
the Dominion Government were there to protect the Dominion Treasury. Well, as far
as he
was aware, all points had been fully discussed
between the Dominion Government and the
gentlemen who had been sent as delegates. He
believed the Dominion Government could have
made better terms with those representing
Canadian interests, than with those representing the Convention. Whether they had
been
freely elected or elected under terror he would
not discuss, and, so far as he could find, they
did not come to ask any special legislation for
any class, Canadians as well as others being
equally protected.
Mr. Mackenzie—At whose instance was the
English settlement excluded?
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks—He would come to
that by-and-by, that was a small question. But
1317
on all points no particular party claimed any
special interest; the best terms were to be
obtained for all parties. The member for Lambton had argued that the Dominion Government
had given too much. That was a fair subject for
criticism, but not as between one section of the
population there and another, for the arrangement was made for the good of all. It
was
perfectly clear that when the difficulties were
settled and the Queen's authority established
that a vast migration would be pouring into the
country, from the Four Provinces but principally, there was no doubt, from Ontario,
and
the original inhabitants would thus be placed
in a hopeless minority, and of this, they themselves had no doubt. If this were correct
it was
perfectly obvious that those who had been
occupying the Territory all their lives would
naturally take this view: that they were to be
entirely swamped and their influence
destroyed, that all their lands were to be taken,
not as in the other Provinces, and that they
would have to take simply a moderate portion
of land for the settlers and their children, not
for one class but for all. There was not one
point he could discover in which the delegates—representing a minority if you will—
took a sectional view. There had been a good
deal of sneering at large institutions for a
small number of people in the Territory.
Although he could cite Constitutions granted
by the Imperial Government to places with
populations smaller, and without the least
prospect of increasing, as there was likely to be
an increase here with a representative chamber, yes, and with a second chamber. Yet
he
would readily admit the perfect absurdity
(hear, hear), of the whole scheme if they were
providing for the total of 15,000, instead of the
population which would go there. Before the
month they were now entering was well
advanced, they would be flocking in, and in so
short a time that he was afraid to say how
short, an immense population would be enjoying the institutions of a free British
people. His
hon. friend, the Minister of Militia, had correctly pointed to the fact that in 1791
when
Upper Canada was made a Province its population was less than the population in the
North-
West now. He had great faith in the future of
that country. Unfortunately the gentleman to
whom the Government looked to for responsible advice had from circumstances been
unable to afford this, and the Government
were compelled to deal with it on their own
responsibility. Therefore, it was not dictated,
nor had the result been brought about by any
delegates, although they were consulting with
them and were happy to believe they were
prepared to acquiesce in the decision at which
the Government were arrived.
1318 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks—They knew its
general principles. Did he mean to say it was
wrong to communicate with these persons?
Mr. Mackenzie—He did mean to say so. Drs.
Schultz and Lynch and Mr. Fletcher were as
much entitled to be consulted as the rebel delegates and they never had been so.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said he must know
that the whole object was to make such conditions as would be for the interests of
the
friends of Drs. Schultz, Lynch, and Mr. Fletcher. They were quite satisfied with the
policy of
the Government, and acquiesced in it for the
Canadians.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said he held in his
hands proof of it in the letter of Dr. Lynch, in
which he said he had confidence that the Government would deal fairly with the people.
They were not the dissatisfied party. Did the
hon. gentleman mean that it would be a statesman-like policy to force the people into
war?
The Government policy was to get the country
peacefully, and when it became thoroughly
Canadian the people now there must necessarily be in the minority. But, not satisfied
with
getting the country, they must also have war.
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said, it was not
only the opinion of the Canadian Government
that no policy could be more adverse than that
to the interests of Canada, and, if they had
adopted a policy against conciliation, they
would not have had the confidence of the
Imperial Government. They had taken the
course, from first to last, which was wise and
prudent, and in consonance with a majority of
this House. The Imperial Government had, at
first, found fault with the Government for not
paying over the money, but when they saw the
reasons that were given, that they were wise
and statesman-like, they approved of them,
and were now acting in close co-operation.
1319
Hon. Sir Francis Hincks said they had acted
in a manner to show that they were satisfied. It
would have been an act of madness if they had
paid over the money in December, in the depth
of winter, when the country would have been
left on the hands of Canada, who would be
compelled to enter on the war in the spring,
and exposed to meet all kind of filibustering,
and an expensive and disastrous war. He was
not going to enter into any details of the Bill.
That would be better done on the second reading, but he had called attention to the
remarks
on the unsound policy of the Government to
show that it had been a sound policy
throughout.
Mr. Ferguson asked how 190 families had
been left out at Portage la Prairie, as laid down
in the map.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said the object
of the residents had been to obtain possession
of the whole country. They wished Rupert's
Land made into one Province and to have all
the land within the boundary as in other Provinces. The Government thought, as he
believed
did the majority of Parliament, that that great
country should be divided into Provinces with
as restricted a boundary as possible, and the
only reason that led to the exclusion was the
belief that the settlement would form the
nucleus of the new Province altogether British,
("hear hear" and "oh"). It was pointed out that
it was impossible to hand over the country, to
be legislated for by the present inhabitants. He
pointed out that the Territory had been purchased for a large sum from the H.B. Co.,
that
settlement had to be made with the Indians,
the guardianship of whom was involved, that
the land could not be handed over to them, as it
was of the greatest importance to the Dominion to have possession of it, for the Pacific
Railway must be built by means of the land
through which it had to pass. He could assure
them that in discussing with the delegates
from the Convention they did not suggest this
division. They wanted the whole country, but
they insisted at last on so arranging that they
should touch and obtain access to Manitoba
Lake on the one side and Lake Winnipeg on
the other.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said if they
were excluded from the Province they still
belonged to the Dominion, and if asked man by
man they would prefer Government by the
Dominion than to be governed from Fort
Garry. But the Bill provided that the Province
should be extended if Parliament should insist
on a different policy and instead of a series of
1320 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Provinces extend the boundaries. There were
other settlements in the Province not included.
Mr. Ferguson was exceedingly sorry to have
given the hon. and gallant knight, the Minister
of Justice, the trouble of making so long an
explanation, which was, nevertheless, he
regretted to say, not quite satisfactory to him.
He should have desired that the whole people
of the North-West should have been included
in the new province. This, he perceived, was
not the intention of the Government. He, however, could not help believing that the
three
thousand English-speaking settlers at Portage
la Prairie should have formed part of the Province of Manitoba, coming thereby within
the
new Government and taking a share in it. Nay,
he would go further, and say that he had hoped
that even those posts of the Hudson's Bay
Company, within reasonable bounds, where
there were two hundred settlers, should not
have been left out of the pale of the proposed
Government and Legislature of Manitoba. The
determination at which the Government
apparently had arrived of leaving out the settlement of the Portage la Prairie, and
the settlers at the posts, had no doubt been come to
after mature consideration, and was the result
of the best information which they had
obtained. That information, nevertheless, may
have been, to some slight extent, one-sided,
and he might be excused for entertaining the
idea that on this point the opinions of gentlemen representing the loyal people of
the country were entitled to as much weight as were
those of the men whom Riel had delegated to
express his views and wishes. With some of
those loyal gentlemen he had come in contact
and he could not refrain from stating that he
had never heard them express any wish to the
effect that the people of la Prairie, or any other
of the English settlers in the North-West,
should be left out of the proposed Government.
He, indeed, thought that they could not do
otherwise than desire to be included in it. Fort
Garry, which was the capital, the chief, and he
might say the only city in the proposed Province of Manitoba, was not more than sixty
miles distant from la Prairie. There was every
reason why they should form a part of the new
Province, and no good reason, whatever, that
they should be excluded. The idea of excluding
them was preposterous. The exclusion of an
English speaking settlement so near the chief
city—the capital, in fact, of the new Govern
1321
ment—could not be carried into effect without
causing remark and suggesting the inference
that there were other reasons besides those
alleged for so short-sighted a proceeding. The
cutting off of these people was not a mere
temporary expedient, but an arrangement
which might last for years. In his opinion, all
the settlements should be included in the new
Province. At Portage la Prairie there were 3,000
settlers, and at the posts there were 200 settlers
at the lowest computation. These should all
come within, and be included in the Province
of Manitoba. Setting that matter aside for the
moment, he might further be permitted to
remark that there seemed to him to be no
necessity for a Legislature with two Chambers—an Upper and a Lower House—for 11,000
people—the balance of the whole population of
15,000, when la Prairie and the posts were left
out of the question. Indeed, he very much
doubted whether this House had authority
under the Act of Confederation, to constitute
an Upper Chamber. There did not seem to him
to be the slightest necessity for two Houses,
and he could not conceive it to be possible that
two Senators should be permitted to so very
few people as their representatives in the
Upper House of the Dominion Parliament. The
new Province, in his opinion, ought to embrace
far wider limits than was intended, and, without the power of attaining his wishes
in this
respect, he could not resist the temptation of
giving expression to his views upon what
seemed to him to be a very important matter.
There was one other matter to which he would
allude before sitting down. Heretofore, in all
his transactions, he had always found the hon.
Minister of Militia liberal towards the whole
English speaking race, and he (Mr. Ferguson)
had never failed to defend him—and that too,
at a time when his name did not stand so high
in Ontario as it now does, when he was
attacked. He admired the honourable gentleman for his undoubted pluck, public spirit
and
liberality, and only regretted that he could not
now go so fully along with him in this measure
as he could have desired. He had no hesitation
in remarking further that he had, on excellent
authority, ascertained that the origin of the
outbreak was not attributable, as had been
alleged, altogether to priestly influence. There
were possibly some priests, who had from mistaken motives, taken part in the resistance
to
Canadian authority, but there were other parties besides Roman Catholic priests, who
had
no mean share in instigating the outbreak. He
certainly trusted that the Bill was open to
amendment, as unless it were so open, he could
not afford to give it his support.
1322 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Mr. Ferguson hoped that it might be so
amended as to include the Portage la Prairie in
the new Province.
Mr. Masson (Terrebonne) had found it impossible to agree up to the present moment,
with the Government on the North-West
imbroglio. He had always thought that the
Government had made a great mistake in not
consulting the inhabitants of the Territories; in
not taking the advice of persons of standing,
who would have been most happy to tender
advice if required. He had not one word to
disavow in all he said on this question, and had
remarked with pleasure some time ago, that
the hon. Minister of Militia had manfully
admitted himself, that the Government had
been mistaken as to the nature of the Government existing in the Red River settlements,
or
the sentiments of its inhabitants, thereby
admitting what he (Mr. Masson) had contended for, that the rules of common prudence
had
been disregarded. He had always thought one
of the greatest faults of the Government had
been the nomination of the Hon. Mr. McDougall as Lieutenant Governor. He was sure
that
there was many an Englishman, both in the
House, and in the country, who by their liberal
turn of mind, would have been most acceptable
to the population. The hon. member for North
Lanark had this evening by his attack on the
Catholic clergy fully justified the opinion that
no worse nomination could be made to govern
a people composed of men of different religion
and races. He (the member for North Lanark)
had found fault with the Government for
having granted a liberal representative Government to the new Province. The accusation
came most singularly from a member of the
great Liberal party of Ontario and would be
resented by all men in the country, who
believed in liberal institutions. The accusation
came badly from a gentleman belonging to the
then small Province of Upper Canada, which
had obtained representative institutions when
only inhabited by a few thousand people. He
(Mr. Masson) was grieved to hear the member
from North Lanark attacking the Roman Catholic clergy at this very moment, when it
is
perfectly well known that the pacification of
the Red River was due to the untiring efforts of
the Right Rev. Bishop Taché, a most patriotic,
able and liberal gentleman, who had, by his
loyal influence, induced Riel and his followers
to hoist the English flag on the bastion of Fort
Garry, and had it saluted by the guns of the
Fort. It would be seen in the
Globe newspaper
that Bishop Taché had succeeded in pacifying
1323
men who had always thought that their political rights had been wilfully disregarded
and
had quieted and brought to submission men
who had taken from their fathers those principles of liberty, of which the two great
races
inhabiting this country are so proud, and the
instincts of freedom of the wild men of the
desert. The member for North Lanark had
charged the Government with being the cause
of the disasters which occurred in the North-
West, and responsible for all damages done. He
(Mr. Masson) was of opinion that the Government were not blameless in this matter;
he held
them responsible for a great part of the mischief done, but it did not come well from
the
member to charge them with it, when it was
known that his unfortunate and unauthorized
proclamation had more to do with the continuance of the disturbance, than the mistakes
of
the Government. Had his proclamation been
acted upon, he would have been responsible for
the lives and property of Her Majesty's subjects, and the weight of damages done would
have been still greater and told more heavily
on those, and whoever they may be, who will
be obliged to pay the indemnity. As to the
measure, he (Mr. Masson) thought it was a
liberal-minded measure so far, and would be
considered by the people of Red River as an
atonement for their disregarded rights. He
would not now examine the question of the
expedition further than to state that he
thought every member of the House felt that
the Imperial Government had not dealt with
us, and our Government in the proportion they
assumed of the expenditure required for that
expedition, when it was considered that the
country had never been ours. He would support
the Bill as a whole with all reserves as to the
expediency of the expedition, and our share of
the contribution.
Hon. Mr. Howe said the discussion might be
carried out on some of the questions that had
arisen during the debate. He could not expect
to be entirely silent on the subject of the
North-West, and strange criticisms and
remarks had been passed on him. With regard
to the charge made against the Government
that they acted dishonourably in not paying
the ÂŁ300,000 for the possession of the country:
if they had paid that money, under the circumstances, was it likely that they should
have got
possession of the Territory? He wondered what
would have been said if the money had been
paid and they had lost the Territory too. He
would have liked to hear the member for
Lambton speak on that if it had occurred, at
the following Session. They had some reason to
apprehend that not being well satisfied with
the transfer of the Territory there was some
uneasiness among the employees of the Hud
1324 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
son's Bay Company. Would they have to pay
over that money to strengthen the hands of
those men? No, they paused in their action.
They raised the money, put it in deposit, and in
a few days they had a strong confirmation of
the wisdom of their proceedings in the telegrams from Mr. McDougall relating that
disturbances had taken place and showing the
want of action of the Hudson's Bay Company,
ascribing it to the weakness and imbecility of
the Governor. There was evidence of the weakness of the Company furnished to them
on the
13th of November, and he put it to the hon.
gentleman, that matter not being cleared up
during the whole winter, whether they would
not have incurred grave responsibility? (Hear,
hear.) The Company would have said we have
got the money and there is nothing for us to do
in the matter of preserving peace, let us leave
it entirely to the Government of Canada. They,
therefore, did not pay and were there to
answer for it. The position if they had paid the
money would have resulted in circumstances
which would have merited the application, to
them, of being worse than absurd. They would
have been in a position of having nominal
authority and possession of a country for the
whole winter, in which they could not place
their foot. They threw the responsibility on the
Hudson's Bay Company and the Imperial Government. They wisely held on to the money,
that was the first point, (laughter). He did not
think that the honour of the country had been
tarnished by that action. If the British Government did not come to maintain their
power in
this territory it was a very different course to
that which he had always associated with the
name of Great Britain. If that ancient empire
was to be held together, if the loyalty of the
country's inhabitants was to be maintained,
this was not the course to be adopted. The
spirit with which the British people met the
Assiniboian outlay gave strength and prestige
to the present expedition. It was something to
have the Queen's authority for passing out of
our own limits to that country where we
expect to have our power maintained and
enforced in the future. If from any cause the
Queen's Government were to refuse to participate in this expedition of peace, he would
not
like to advise the people of Canada to embark
in it. The Hon. Mr. McDougall seemed to throw
on the Government the whole blame. He (Hon.
Mr. Howe) had been in the Territory for several days without knowing that there was
a
danger of insurrection; but the blame rested on
the Hon. Mr. McDougall as Minister of Public
Works, who had constant communication with
his employees in that country, and yet did not
inform him (Hon. Mr. Howe) in the fall that
there was a danger of insurrection in the Province. Mr. Snow was there fifteen months,
but
1325
did not say anything about it, and Colonel
Dennis, who started in August, and was selected by Hon. Mr. McDougall, and was responsible
to Mr. McDougall but neither of them had
given the slightest intimation that there was to
be any conflict or any serious interruption to
the progress of the Canadian Government. And
yet he was expected to find it out in a single
day. The inhabitants were not savages.
Hon. Mr. Howe said the intelligence of the
people was remarkable. The Bishop of Rupert's
Land invited him to come to his house, and he
found him a prelate of the highest character
and intelligence, and his second man a hardheaded Scotchman, (laughter). They had
Sabbath and day schools. He crossed the river and
found in the Catholic diocese of St. Boniface
the same intelligence and beautiful structures.
He did not like the term half-breed, but they
were told that because of that they were to be
crushed down.
Hon. Mr. Howe—I don't know, but we will
assume that the idea is in some one's head, and
is deserving of being crushed out. He thought
at the time of the Norman Conquest that the
English were half-breeds, but out of these mixtures came the noblest breeds. With
regard to
the system of two Chambers, as an individual
member of the Government he would prefer a
single Chamber if the people desired it; but in
giving them two Chambers they were only
giving them what was given to every British
Colony, and would give the people of Manitoba
no cause of complaint. Of course the Local
Legislature would have power to do away with
one Chamber if they did not want it. He would
not undertake to say that perhaps two or three
priests had not aided in the insurrection; but
supposing that was so, the plain duty of the
Government was to do what was right irrespective of the conduct of two or three priests.
Let us not mar the glorious work of founding a
Province, which would one day be an honour to
the Empire, by any reference to each other's
religion, (hear, hear). The hon. gentleman
went on to defend the appointment of Captain
Cameron, and intimated that had he owned or
controlled a newspaper his conduct would have
been regarded in a different light. With regard
to the claims of the loyalists, he would state
that this Government and Parliament might be
trusted to do justice in a matter of this kind.
All claims would have to be investigated before
they were considered.
1326 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
Hon. Mr. McDougall said the hon. Secretary
of State endeavoured to shield himself from
the just indignation of the country, by throwing the blame upon Col. Dennis and himself.
He would admit that the Government had no
information, when he was appointed, of a
threatened uprising against the authority of
the Canadian Government. On the contrary
the Government had an interview with Governor McTavish not long before his appointment,
and he gave no hint of any prospect of trouble.
But when the Secretary of State went to Red
River there was trouble exhibited, but yet he
did nothing to allay it, but on the contrary had
told them that they were right in resisting
entrance to the coming Government, and he
charged that hon. gentleman with being the
chief instrument in the whole matter resulting
so seriously. He had informed the people, in
effect, that they had only to do as Nova Scotia
did and they would succeed. The rebellion
would have been a mere trifling affair had it
not been sustained by the advice and recommendation of the Secretary of State. These
facts he could prove before a Committee of the
House, if one were appointed. With regard to
his own conduct, he held that he was justified
in assuming that the day agreed upon for the
transfer, the transfer would take place, and
that his commission would come into effect.
But he discovered, a few days after the first of
December, from a paragraph in a newspaper,
which was the first intimation he had that the
Government had failed to keep their promise,
and that the money would not be paid over.
Why was not a messenger sent to him to
inform him of the intention of the Government
to break up the arrangement with the Imperial
Government? With regard to the despatch of
the Secretary of State to him, about which so
much had been said, he would take this opportunity of replying as he had never done,
it
being understood that it would not be laid on
the table along with the other papers. He
explained that at the time the proclamation
was to be issued, the loyal people were ready to
admit him, were anxious in fact for him to
come, and under the circumstances he felt he
had a right to assume that the royal proclamation had been issued. Acting on that
assumption he sent Col. Dennis ahead, but as Riel had
promised that he only wanted the rights of the
people, Col. Dennis, acting on the advice of
leading men, had decided not to keep the
people in arms. He (Mr. McDougall) admitted
he had no authority to act, but how was he to
know? It was absurd to say that the Hudson's
Bay Company should have maintained order as
they were in a moribund state of existence.
With regard to the remarks of the Minister of
Finance, he contended that the action of Col.
Dennis had not the effect of prolonging the
1327
rebellion. The insurgents had their plans all
laid, and were determined to carry them under
all circumstances. He was not disposed to
accept any more than his share of blame in the
matter. He acted faithfully with the Government, and he never for a moment dreamed
that
they would go back from the agreement they
had entered into. He believed that if Bishop
Taché, when he returned, had exerted his full
authority to induce the followers of Riel to
return to their homes, Riel would not have a
Corporal's guard left to sustain him. He
referred to the recommendations of Mr. D.
Smith that a force should be sent to keep the
Indians quiet, and characterized it as a libel on
the Indians, who were thoroughly loyal to the
British Crown. Referring to the Bill, he hoped
the boundaries would be changed so as to
include the country lying between the Red
River and Lake Superior, and also the English
settlement of Portage la Prairie.
Hon. Mr. Chauveau replied to the remarks
of the member for North Lanark, that Quebec
was on the verge of bankruptcy owing to the
burden of the two Chambers. He asserted that
Quebec had a balance on hand of $500,000, and
explained the different position Quebec
occupied to that of Ontario. He went on to
argue that half-breeds were not an inferior
race, and contended that no proof had been
produced of the charges against the Roman
Catholic priesthood that they had fomented
the insurrection. He proceeded to criticize at
length the action of the member for North
Lanark in the North-West, and the despatches
and subsequent conduct of that hon. gentleman.
Mr. Mills asked if the Dominion Government would retain the right to appoint Senators from
Red River, or would that right be left
to the Local Government.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said it was
impossible at the time the address was passed
for the admission of Rupert's Land, to know
what representation should be given in the
Dominion Parliament, and, therefore, he had
put it in the original Constitution—so
representation was provided for in the present
Bill. It would be hopeless to expect that freemen would consent to be united to Canada
without a representation in the Canadian Parliament being provided for. Hence the
necessity for such a provision in that Bill. He regretted the nature of the discussion
that had taken
place with regard to the principles and details
of the Bill. Government would be glad to have
full and free discussion. He hoped that the hon.
gentlemen in ventilating their private grievances would take care not to use any expression
that would throw any obstruction in their
1328 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
way, expressions which would be reported in
the North-West; that they would take care that
by throwing words across the floor of the
House they did not wound the sensibilities of a
high-minded and jealous people. With regard
to the question of boundary and the size of the
new Province, the Government would fully
consider it, but he considered it would be
injudicious to have a large province which
would have control over lands, and might
interfere with the general policy of the Government in opening up communication to
the
Pacific, besides the land legislation of the
Province might be obstructive to immigration.
All that vast Territory should be for purposes
of settlement under one control, and that the
Dominion Legislature. Another consideration
was that by obtaining the control of these
lands they would be able to obtain means by
which they would be in a position to obtain
repayment of the disbursement of the ÂŁ300,000
for the purchase and of the expenditure which
they might be hereafter put to. The expense
would be defrayed by that means instead of
being charged against the people of the Provinces of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia
and New
Brunswick, (hear). That could be done, however, only by carrying out that policy of
keeping the control of the lands of the country, and
that they had determined to do. The Government thought it was a wise policy that the
limits of the Province should not be too large.
These considerations, however, they would
place more strongly on the judgment and discretion of the House on the second reading.
Mr. Stirton asked if the Minister of Justice
had any authority for the statement that the
people of Portage la Prairie desired to be left
out of the new Province?
Mr. Stirton said some of the people settled
there had gone from his neighbourhood, and he
happened to know that their sentiments did
not bear out the assertion of the hon. gentleman. He (Mr. Stirton) thought one objection
to
the creation of small Provinces was that it
involved farther increase in the number of
Cabinet Ministers, so as to give them all
representation in the Privy Council. He also
objected to leaving a large area of Territory
between Lake Superior and Red River without
any organization. It would be a sort of no
man's land, belonging neither to the Province
of Ontario nor Manitoba, and would probably
1329
become the refuge of every outlaw in both
Provinces, and a source of constant trouble and
difficulty.
Mr. Mackenzie said he was not inclined to
submit to the exclusion of the Portage la Prairie country from the new Province; and
unless
the Government yielded upon that point, he
would offer an amendment on the second reading. He also objected to the smallness
of the
Province, and said, if the whole of the fertile
belt were to be cut up in that way, it would
make some twenty or thirty Provinces. He
demanded that the Government should bring
down further information upon the subject, so
that the House might be able to discuss it
intelligently, with the aid of all the facts which
have enabled the Government to form the conclusions it had reached.
Dr. Grant said it would wound the sensibilities of the people at Portage la Prairie if they
were excluded, and he urged the Government
to reconsider its conclusion on that point.
Hon. Mr. Wood said the general features of
the measure met his approval; but there was
one point to which the attention of the Government, it seemed to him, had not been
sufficiently directed, and that was the care and
guardianship of the Indian tribes. He referred
to the laws which had been passed in Canada
with regard to Indian annuities, which were
now placed upon the civil lists in obedience to
the requirements of the Imperial Government,
and asked if the Minister of Justice had stated
that 1,200,000 acres of land were to be reserved
and placed at the disposal of the Local Government of the Province for the extinction
of the
Indian titles. Now he (Hon. Mr. Wood) wanted
to know if the Government proposed to entrust
to this new Province, unaccustomed to the
exercise of the functions of a Government, the
payment of the Indian annuities, which would
have to be made for the purpose of extinguishing those Indian titles, or did the Dominion
Government intend to retain in its own hands
the power of dealing with those Indians and
seeking whether contracts or undertakings,
made with them should be faithfully carried
out. There was an apprehension that under the
pretence of confirming grants made by the
Hudson's Bay Company, large blocks of land
might find their way into the hands of certain
corporations and thus be locked up and withheld from settlement. He confessed the
explanations of the Minister of Justice had not satisfied him on this point.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said the reservation of 1,200,000 acres which it was proposed
1330 COMMONS DEBATES May 2, 1870
to place under the control of the Province, was
not for the purpose of buying out the full
blooded Indians and extinguishing their titles.
There were very few such Indians remaining
in the Province, but such as there were they
would be distinctly under the guardianship of
the Dominion Government. The main representatives of the original tribes were their
descendants, the half-breeds, and the best way
of dealing with them was the same as United
Empire loyalists had been dealt with, namely
giving small grants of land for them and their
children. That was the answer he had to give to
his hon. friend.
In reply to Mr. Rymal,
Hon. Mr. Howe said that the Government
only knew that the prisoners were all released,
the mails were free, the country was open, and
the Hudson's Bay Company had commenced to
sell their goods again.
In further reply to Mr. Rymal,
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said no writ
had been issued against Riel; the proper power
to arrest Riel was the Imperial Power. It was
with her and her only that steps could be
taken. If any offenders are brought within the
bounds of Canada, they had to be tried. They
could not have any
ex post facto jurisdiction.
Mr. Mills asked if the prisoners were in
confinement, would they be set free therefore
on the transfer to this Government, and
whether crimes committed anterior to the
transfer would not be subject to punishment
according to law.
Hon. Sir John A. Macdonald said if there
was a prisoner in Newfoundland at Confederation he would be tried under the same laws
as
he was taken into custody under.
Hon. Mr. Holton asked if the Bill was complete, or whether it would be recast after the
discussion that night?
The Bill was read a first time.
Second time to-morrow.
Hon. Mr. Howe then laid on the table the
report of Father Thibault's mission.
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