3063 COMMONS 3064
Mr. SCOTT. Taking into the view all the circumstances, I believe this item is second in importance
to no other that can be found in the estimates this year. The main part of the item
which relates to the Northwest Territories is equivalent to the cash subsidies paid
to the various provinces under the federal constitution. For a considerable time past
the people of the Northwest Territories have been looking forward to the formation
of that country into province or provinces. I took the occasion during my first session
in this House last year to call the attention of parliament at some length to some
phases of that matter. I did not deem it necessary then to argue that the time had
arrived for granting full provincial powers to the people of the North-west Territories,
because some time previous we had a statement from a member of the government to the
effect that it was their intention in the near future to take up that matter and deal
with it. I have to express my regret that a decision has been arrived at by the government
not to deal with that question this year. I would not go so far as to say that the
people of the North-west Territories unanimously regret the decision of the govern
3065 APRIL 18, 1902 3066
ment ; there may be a considerable number
who hold the view that it is yet too early
in their circumstances to grant full provincial powers. But I believe I express
the opinion of a very large majority of the
people when I say that the conditions have
now reached a stage when it would be advantageous to those people as well as to
the entire Dominion, to have this question
settled without further loss of time. Some
hon. members may be aware of the fact
that within the past two weeks the question has been debated in the local legislature
at Regina, and by a vote of 23 to 7,
I think, in a House of 31 members, it was
decided that it was a matter of regret that
this question had not been taken up and
an endeavour made to settle it this present
year. Perhaps, as the House is now in
Committee of Supply, it may not be a
proper occasion for me to discuss the provincial establishment question at length,
and
there may be another opportunity of doing
so before the close of the session.
But I want to point out that until provincial powers are granted to the people
of the North-west Territories, the responsibility devolves upon this parliament of
providing for the services which come within
the purview of the North-west Assembly.
Those services are much the same as the
services performed by the various provincial governments, with a few minor
exceptions. The services for which the
North-west Assembly is responsible are
the same as those of which the provincial
governments have charge. We know that
the various provincial governments have
definite and final arrangements with the
federal power as to the amount of money
they shall receive from the Dominion
exchequer yearly, and they are themselves
responsible for performing certain duties.
But with regard to the North-west Territories at the present time, that responsibility
devolves upon this parliament, and
especially upon the Department of the Interior. In reality the business of governing
the North-west Territories is but a branch
of the department in the charge of the Minister of the Interior. The services which
the
North-west Assembly performs in the Northwest Territories are just as important and
possibly more so than any of the services
that are performed by this federal parliament. The subjects of education and local
public works are possibly just as important
to the people up there as any of the subjects with which this parliament has to
deal. As I said, the subjects of legislation
in the North-west Territories are very
similar to those dealt with by the various
local legislatures of the provinces. I will
mention a few of them. Public Works, for
instance, for the management of which
there is a special department as in the provinces. The Department of Public Works
in the Territories has to deal with the construction of roads and bridges, with the
building of dams, and with the matter of
drainage in certain parts of that large
country. They have to operate ferries
where it has not been possible yet to make
bridges. They have to undertake a certain other duty that is not required in any of
the provinces, that of making fire-guards.
During last year the local Department
of Public Works in the territories constructed somewhere in the neighbourhood
of 2,000 miles of fire guards. The administration of irrigation legislation too, comes
under that department. This is the department which supervises and to some extent,
administers the affairs of a large number
of local improvement districts. These local
improvement districts take the place of the
municipalities which are to be found in
Ontario and the other provinces. It has
been thought wise in that country, where
the population is yet sparse, and until the
population becomes more dense, to have a
simpler form of municipal organization
than in Ontario or the older provinces, and
a scheme for the establishment of local
improvement districts was some years ago
worked out and put in force—a very simple
scheme suited to the conditions of the country, and the plan is administered, to a
considerable extent, and is altogether supervised by the local Department of Public
Works. There are, in some parts of the
country, where the population is very
spare, what are called large local improvement districts, and the administration
of these is entirely attended to by the Department of Public Works. The department
too, supervises and inspects the coal
mines of the territories. It has a branch
too, for the inspection of steam boilers. A
very important part of its duties is in regard to testing for water. In some parts
of that immense country settlers have found
difficulty in securing water, and it has been
deemed advisable to undertake a plan, and
very good service has been rendered by the
plan which the government undertakes, to
provide well borers, drills, and angers, and
to test in various localities for water. I do
not need to say to this committee that these
duties are very important to the people of
that country, and when we look at
the amount of the vote which has, in previous years, been given to the legislature
to enable it to carry on these duties, when
we look at the amount of the vote which
it is proposed this year to grant to the legislature, and when we take into consideration
the very large extent of country and
the very great importance of these duties,
some few of which I have enumerated. I
think the committee can reach no other
conclusion than this, at all events, that not
too much money has been voted and is proposed to be voted to the legislative assembly
to carry out such duties. The total
amount in the item before us is $357,979.
There are works which are needed
in that country in the way of bridges—
3067
COMMONS 3068
single bridges—which if the legislature attempted to carry out and which would be
of very great benefit to the people, would
take nearly all the sum of $357,000. There
are places in that country where works are
needed and which would be a benefit to
the people, and such works would take the
entire vote which it is proposed to grant
to the legislature, namely, $357,000. I need
only refer to the matter of public works,
a matter of very great importance, a matter which requires a very great expenditure
in a country of the immense extent of the
North-west Territories, some parts of which
are of a broken character and having very
large rivers. The subject of education is one
of no less importance. In a country like
the North-west Territories, where a very
large immigration is coming in and where
a very large immigration and an increasing
population are expected, the subject of education is, to the people there and to the
people of Canada, one of the very highest
importance. As illustrating the need of an
increase in the vote by this House for the
purposes of the legislative assembly, I will
quote some figures to show the way in which
the school districts have been increasing
in number. At the end of 1896 there were
436 public school districts. These had been
organized since 1884, when the public
school system was inaugurated. At the end
of 1897 there were 459 school districts, being an increase of 21 districts in that
year.
At the end of 1898 there were 480, there
being an increase of 23. At the end of 1899
the number had risen to 524, there being an
increase of 44. At the end of 1900 there
were 576, an increase of 52. At the end
of 1901 the number of school districts which
had been organized was 684, showing an
increase during the last year of 108 districts. The expenditure of the North-west
Territories upon education in 1901 was $204,000, being something more than half of
the
total grant made by this parliament for all
the purposes of local government in the
North-west Territories. I neglected to mention, in regard to the subject of public
works, that the expenditure made last year
was in the neighbourhood of $250,000, so
that it will be seen that the expenditure on
education and public works, on these two
subjects, more than took up the whole of
the yearly grant made by parliament last
year for all purposes of local government in
the territories. The local authorities find
that these necessary subjects are practically
all that they are able to undertake. Of
course, there are necessarily some other expenditures, for instance, the expenses
of
the meeting of the legislature, and there
are other incidental items which are necessary and which cannot be avoided. Last
year, in addition to these items of public
works and education, which took up a very
large amount of the total appropriation,
there was an amount of $80,000 for the
yearly expenses of the local civil service
and the meeting of the legislature a vote
of $8,000 for the administration of local
ordinances and civil justice, which comes
under the purview of the legislature, and
a vote of $20,000 to meet the expenses
of the Department of Agriculture, which is
performing some very important and necessary work. The Department of Agriculture
administers amongst other things what
is known as the Brands ordinance. In
the ranching country the brand upon the
animal is the chief evidence of ownership,
and it is important that the legislation
in regard to brands shall be carefully
administered. During last year, I believe
there were no less than 10,000 new brands
issued by the Department of Agriculture.
There was a vote of $15,000 for .the purposes of grants to hospitals and the maintenance
of public health, and there was
a miscellaneous vote of $5,000, making
a total, outside the subjects of public works
and education, of $128,000. I do not think
it would be profitable for me, or for any
hon. member of this House to make comparisons between the expenditures in one
part of the country and in another, or between one,province and another, or between
the North-west Territories and any of the
provinces. Such comparisons might be made,
and I may say that I think I could make them
at the present time, and possibly convince
the House by such comparisons that a very
large increase might properly be made in
the grant for the purpose of government
in the North-west Territories, but I do not
think it would be proper for me, or for any
other member, to endeavour to make such
comparisons. We from the North-west Territories, at all events, are not sectionalists,
we believe in nationalism, we believe in
coming into the House and advocating only
that which will be for the general benefit
of Canada. I hope the day will never come
when I will be found here advocating anything which I have not proved to myself, at
least, and which I have not some reasonable ground for believing I can convince the
House is for the general benefit of Canada. While I am not going
to endeavour to make any comparisons
between the expenditures in one part of the
country and in another, I am going to say,
and I think this principle has been largely
followed, that wherever any service seems
to be advisable and necessary this House
should endeavour to provide adequately for
that service. I believe that is the proper
principle, and I believe that if that principle
be applied in this case, parliament will at
the present session grant a very large increase in the vote for the purpose of governing
locally the North-west Territories.
Just to show what is the position of the local
authority up there at the present time, I
Will quote a few brief figures. In the year
1899 the grant made by parliament for government in the North-west Territories was
$283,000, but the total amount expended
that year by the local authorities was $414,000. There is, of course, a small local
re
3069 APRIL 18, 1902 3070
venue which is year by year increasing to
some extent. For four or five years it has
amounted annually to $30,000 or $40,000,
and it is expected that this year and from
this on the local revenue will not be less
than perhaps $80,000 or $90,000, which is
largely derived from a small direct tax
which has been placed upon land. But
while the total expenditure in 1899 amounted
to $414,000, and the total grant from this
parliament was only $283,000, the explanation is that in that year the Yukon was
still to a certain extent within the administration of the local authorities of
the North-west Territories, and from the
Yukon a revenue of about $160,000 was
obtained. That local revenue enabled the
North-west government with fair adequacy
to meet the wants of the country for
that year. In the year 1900 the grant
from this parliament was increased to $424,000, and with the local revenue the Northwest
government had $465,000 at their disposal. For the year 1901 the estimates
which the North-west government presented to Ottawa amounted to $600,000. That
amount, on a close calculation by the Northwest government was deemed to be necessary
to cover the actual needs of local government. The grant which they received
from parliament for that year was only
$357,000, the same amount as we find in
the present estimates. The local authorities of the North-west Territories represented
to the powers at Ottawa that the needs
of that country for the year 1901 demanded
$600,000, and they received only $357,000.
What was done last year by the local authority to cover the evident deficiency was
this : The appropriation by this parliament is for the fiscal year from the 30th
of June to the 30th of June following, but
the financial year in the North-west Territories is the calendar year from the 3lst
December to 31st December following. The
vote made by this parliament last year was
intended to cover the period until June
30th, 1902, but the local government found
that unless they took the whole vote that
was made here last year and expended it
within their calendar year of 1901, they
could not commence to properly meet the
needs of the people of that country, the
cost of education and the cost of necessary
public works. The position in which the
North-west government finds itself to-day
is, that an ordinary vote does not put them
in the same position as they were in last
year, because last year they were compelled
to anticipate the money that should ordinarily have gone to them in the first half
of
this present calendar year. Suppose we vote
$357,000 for this present year, the consequence is that the North-west authorities
will only be able to expend within 1902 one-
half of it, or a little over $175,000. Now, if
their needs this year amount approximately
to $600,000. it will not take this committee
long to comprehend that if a very largely
increased appropriation is not made at the
present time, the people in the North-west
Territories who depend on the local government for their needs in the way of public
works and education and local purposes generally, are going to be left in a very difficult
position, and it will simply be impossible for the local government to meet these
needs in any proper and adequate manner.
We had a discussion in the House yesterday upon the subject of immigration. It
is unnecessary for me to say that at the
present time the population in the whole
of western Canada is increasing very
largely. From a national point of view that
is very encouraging, but from the point of
view of the local government it is not an
unmixed blessing to see hundreds of people
literally pouring into that country daily,
because every new settler means an additional tax upon the local governing
authority. It means that increased expenditure will have to be made upon the construction
of roads and bridges, because the
greater the number of people in that country the greater the area settled, and it
was
found in practice last year that many of the
new comers went upon areas which had
not been before that time settled, and thus
rendered necessary the construction of new
roads and the building of culverts and
bridges by the local authorities. Consequently, the local government of the Northwest
cannot look upon this influx of immigration as an unmixed blessing from their
point of view ; while from the larger point
of view it is indeed a very encouraging circumstance that immigrants are coming into
Canada to-day in larger numbers than they
ever came in any previous time. In fact
every newspaper one takes hold of from the
western part of the country is half filled
with accounts of new settlers coming in with
large quantities of settlers' effects, bringing
added riches to the country. I had a note
a couple of days ago from a gentleman at
North Portal, who stated that in the previous week no less than 186 cars of settlers'
eifects had been passed through that port
from the United States into western Canada. I had another letter this evening from
a gentleman in Regina which is simply an
illustration of what is occurring generally in
that country. He writes me :
I wish you would impress upon the department the necessity of granting more assistance
to the land agent here as soon as possible. The
staff are over worked and still the work is getting further and further behind, so
that when
letters are written here for information the
parties have to wait a week or two before they
can get an answer, and you can imagine how
annoyed at man would be who, a stranger in the
country, has to pay a weeks hotel bill or more
while he is getting an answer to his letter. I
do not know of any qualified persons here whom
you could appoint.
The condition of affairs in the country is
becoming so prosperous that it is difficult
to obtain people to accept positions in the
public service.
3071
COMMONS 3072
Mr. SCOTT. I think I can assure the
Minister of the Interior that if he grants
the needed assistance, I shall be able to
find a person who will take the position,
notwithstanding the great prosperity that
exists. This letter goes on:
The agent tells me that during the first week
of April over one hundred homestead entries
were made at the oiflee here. The rush of
Americans in over the Soo line has assumed
tremendous proportions, the railway company being unable to handle the traffic. It
takes about a week for a car of settlers' effects
to come from St. Paul to Moosejaw. There
are not hwlf a dozen homesteads between Regin. and the Soo line, the only part of
the
south plain where there are any homesteads
being 'along the Arcola extension and I don't
think that there will be any there in three
months.
As I say, nearly every letter one receives
from the North-west Territories and nearly
every paper that comes to hand, is filled
with intelligence about hundreds of newcomers who are arriving daily in that country.
The Winnipeg 'Free Press,' which
came to hand to-night, states that on Wednesday of this week no less than 1,000 settlers
arrived in Winnipeg, and a very considerable proportion of all the settlers who
arrive at Winnipeg go to some point in the
North-west Territories. This is a very encouraging feature of the times, and I thoroughly
agree with what was said by my
hon. friend the Minister of the Interior last
night, that we appear to be at the dawn of
a new day. The present prospect is more
encouraging than it has been at any time
at least in my lifetime, and I think the
committee will agree that it would be too
bad if any check were given to the tendency of the people towards that country,
by parsimony on the part of this House in
dealing with the local needs of the people.
As has often been said, any effort that may
be put forth by this government to promote
immigration must be secondary in effect to
the work which will be done by satisfied
settlers in the country, who, as is often said,
are the best immigration agents. For my
part, I think one of the most important
duties coming within the purview of the
Department of the Interior with regard to
immigration is to see that the local needs,
in the way of public works, education, and
other things, are properly and adequately
met. For these reasons, for my part—and
I believe I speak for every member from
the North-west Territories, and I believe as
well that our friends from British Columbia
and Manitoba will support us unanimously
in this—I think the House should very
largely increase the grant to the local government of the North-west Territories.
Mr. OLIVER. I wish to support what
has been said by the hon. member for
Western Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) with regard
to this vote for the government in the
North-west Territories. It was with some
considerable surprise that I saw in the estimates that the amount to be voted for
this
purpose for the coming year was no larger
than the vote for the present year. 1 am
at a loss to understand upon what basis of
calculation this sum was arrived at. If
it is necessary or desirable to meet the requirements of the public service in any
part
of the country, account must be taken of the
increase of those requirements. Now, this
whole country is ringing with a knowledge
of the increase of population and therefore
increase of requirements in the North-west,
and that knowledge has produced no result
in the way of meeting the requirements
which necessarily arise. It may be said
that the amount required for the purposes
of the government of the North-west Territories is an uncertain amount. So it is.
It is an amount which depends from time
to time upon the requirements as they arise.
With the increase of population, those requirements have increased from year to
year. By reason of climatic conditions during the past year, those needs have been
tremendously emphasized. By reason of
heavy rains, bridges have been washed out
by the dozen, and a very large part of the
revenues of the territorial government which
should have gone to extend the facilities of
travel throughout new settlements in the
country, has been used up in replacing the
damage done by the floods in older settlements. It may not be altogether plain to
membersof the House why an increase of
population means an increase of requirements. The reason is that the territories
have immense areas, compared to population. They are not at all on the same
footing as the province of Manitoba, where
the population is contained in less than
one-third of the total area of the province,
and the total area of Manitoba is not over
one-fourth of the area over which settlement is scattered in the North-west. An
increase of settlement in the province of
Manitoba means simply a thickening up of
the population. and does not require the
opening of new roads or the establishment
of new school districts, and does not increase
materially the expenses of government;
while an increase of population in the Northwest Territories means that people have
spread out into new country, necessitating
new roads and new schools and an increase
in every way and materially of expenses of
government. It is of course under our
present condition a matter of arrangement
or consideration of this parliament what
shall be done from year to year to meet
financial conditions. That is not the fault
of the people or the government of the
North-west Territories. The government of
the North-west Territories has approached
this government repeatedly during past
years, and most formally during the past
year, asking for a definite financial arrangement based on the terms of confederation,
as applied to the different provinces of the
3073 APRIL 18, 1902 3074
Dominion. They are not here from time to time clamouring for unknown and unheard
of amounts. They are asking simply that
the government or parliament either meet
the requirements of the case, as they arise
from time to time, or else put the territories
in the same financial position as the various
provinces of the Dominion, so that they may
enjoy as a right what they now must ask
as a favour. I submit that the position
is this: This parliament and government
are required either to meet the conditions
that exist by an adequate vote, or else to
put the territories in the position of the
various provinces of the Dominion as regards financial arrangements. Either one
thing or the other, and the responsibility is
upon the House and the government in the
matter.
As to the amount that is demanded and
the comparisons that may be made with
regard to that amount, the vote for carrying
on the government of the North-west Territories, which stands in the same position
as
a subsidy voted to one of the provinces—
out of which provision must be made for
the construction of public works of all
classes throughout the Territories, chiefly
roads and bridges, the requirements of education, and the administration of all the
departments of government—amounts to only
$268,000. That is the total amount provided
for all the expenses of government of the
Territories, which are, in the existing circumstances, necessarily higher proportionately
than in any other portion of the Dominion. And it is to cost the country $445,000
in the coming year for the expenses
to be incurred in endeavouring to bring
people into the North-west. I claim, Mr.
Chairman, that these two expenditures are
not proportionate. I claim that if $445,000
be a reasonable expenditure to bring people
into the country, $358,000 is not a reasonable sum with which to provide for all the
needs of local government, both for the people who are in the country now, and those
who are to come in as the result of this
expenditure on immigration work.
I need not add to what my hon. friend
from West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) has said
with regard to the effect that an inadequate
provision for the needs of education, the
opening of roads and the general matters
of local government, must necessarily have
on immigration into that country. The class
of people who are going there in largest
numbers are those whose first demand is
for the facilities of schools and markets.
They are an enterprising and an energetic
people. who have built up the great country to the south of us, and who come over
the line to build up a great country on our
side. They will not be satisfied, unless they
can have facilities for the education of
their children and the ordinary advantages
of civilization in due measure, as the circumstances permit. And now when those
people are coming in large numbers, attracted by the desirability of our country,
it would be the worst policy that ever was
entered upon. to stint the means whereby
they may be rendered satisfied with the
country. Do not forget that we had a rush
of immigrants to the North-west many
years ago, and at that time people seemed
to think that the rush could not be stopped,
but it was stopped and it remained stopped
for nearly twenty years. There is a rush
on again, and I counsel members of this
House to take such measures that it shall
not be stopped until that country has been
satisfactorily developed. Every one knows
that the best immigration agent is the contented settler. Therefore, our best policy
is to provide adequate means to give intending settlers those advantages of civilization,
which they will demand, and which
they consider of the very highest importance. It is because these people look for
these advantages of civilization and prize
them so highly that they are valuable settlers. It is because they want schools and
roads and good government that they are
good settlers. People who would not make
those demands, to whom it makes no difference whether or not there are schools or
roads or good local government, are not
the kind of people we want at all. They
are dear at any price, and it is the best
thing that ever happened this country that
the people who are coming in and filling it
up now are imbued with those civilizing
tendencies.
I hope that the present government will
see that the public services of the Northwest Territories are not starved at this
critical stage in our history. I hope they will
provide for those services according to the
requirements, or else place the territories
upon a provincial footing, so that there shall
be no question about our rights in the matter.
Mr. DOUGLAS. I only wish to make a
few remarks in addition to what has already been said on this question. I would
like to emphasize, if possible, in the mind
of the committee, the statements that have
been made by my hon. friend from West
Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) and my hon. friend
from Alberta (Mr. Oliver). This question
of an increased subsidy is a very important
one in the estimation of he people generally. We should have eir an increased
subsidy or provincial autonomy. As far as
I have given the matter attention, I think
it would be much better for the country,
in its existing circumstances, to receive an
increased subsidy at present rather than
provincial autonomy. I know that there is
a tendency amongst many members of this
House to say that we, the people in the
west, are always clamouring for special advantages. They point to the early settlers
of the older provinces in the east and tell
us that we are looking to be spoonfed and
ought to have the courage, endurance
and hardihood of the early settler in Ontario and elsewhere. Let me say that the
3075 COMMONS 3076
people in the North-west, especially those
who went in twenty years ago, have passed
through experiences of hardship and endurance, which show that they really possess,
in a large measure, those qualities of
resistance, and patience, and have indicated
by their persistent effort that they believe
in the country and are willing to endure
privation in order to make it prosperous. I
do not think that the early settlers of Manitoba and the North-west are, in any sense,
behind those of the eastern provinces. I
can speak from experience, having lived in
that country from 1883 to date. I know
something about the hardships of the people
in the early days of that country.
In reference to public works, it is quite
evident that the sum at the disposal of the
government of the North-west Territories is
wholly inadequate. I can speak with
special knowledge of that part of the
country that I represent, the eastern part
of Assiniboia. Take, for instance, the district lying north and south of the Qu'Appelle
river. It is true, we have some steel
bridges that are a credit to the territorial
government that erected them. But even
they are of little use in the spring season.
I venture to say that to-day the great majority of the people living on the north
side
of the river are not able to cross the valley
or approach the bridges to reach the market
with a load of grain. That is a hardship.
They have grain on their hands that they
are anxious to get rid of and to settle their
liabilities. But this they cannot do because
the approaches to these bridges are in a
state that altogether forbids their reaching
the markets. Perhaps they will not be
able to reach the markets till the end of
May or the beginning of June. We have
a local organization for the improvement
of the roads, and this has been a step in
the right direction. I think the system is
even superior in point of organization to the
municipal arrangements of the older provinces. The local improvement districts of
the North-west Territories are doing good
work and proving that the scheme will be
a great success. Up to the last three or
four years it has been largely in the hands
of the settlers to help themselves in making
roads to reach their markets, to call upon
their neighbour, and they collect a number of individuals who voluntarily gave their
work to make the road. But the government has organized the local improvement
districts which entails a direct tax upon
each quarter section for the improvement
of the roads. And that certainly, as I have
said, is a step in the right direction. But
I have always felt that the sum that was
given for the government of the North-west
Territories was entirely inadequate. It is
quite true that we have a claim upon the
treasury of this Dominion, in common with
the other provinces to a certain amount per
head according to population. But it seems
to me, in view of the rapid growth of immigration and of the population of that
country that the future ought to be discounted by the present government and a
very liberal allowance made for the increase, to enable the territorial government
to make the provisions which the circumstances at present demand. The fact that
we are spending more upon immigration
than upon the government of that country
is one argument for the increase of indemnity. There is another fact that I would
like to point out to the committee. It may
not be popular, perhaps, for me to call attention to it. We would not say that this
Dominion is paying too much for the wards
of the country and for our Indian population. I would not for a moment insinuate
that the government is paying too much for
the Indian youth of the North-west Territories. But it is a fact—I am not prepared
to give the exact figures on the instant, but what I say can be verified—
that we are spending more upon the Indian
industrial schools of the North-west than
for the whole government of those territories. Now, I would like to emphasize
what has already been said that under existing circumstances something might to be
done and a very liberal addition ought to
be made to the subsidy of the North-west
Territories, and that at the present session.
Mr. McCREARY. I desire to say a very
few words on this subject, first, because
this affects the prairie country, and I would
like to endorse the sentiments of my colleagues, and, second, because this is one
of
the most important questions that is to
come before this House in the near future—
the subsidy of the territories, or provincial
autonomy therefor. I have been reading
what has taken place in the House in Regina
with regard to territorial autonomy and I
must say that I was struck with the force
of the arguments. But my own impression
is that, at the present time, there are good
arguments why provincial autonomy should
not to be given to the territories. I believe
that within the next three or four years,
if immigration should continue as at present, the population of the territories will
have so increased and so tended to certain
portions of the territories that probably the
local jealousies that now exist as to whether
there should be one or two or three provinces, and where the capitals shall be,
will have disappeared. I sometimes think
also that they have not considered the expenditure that would devolve upon them if
they had to govern themselves. Take, for
instance, the mounted police. I am not
sure, but I suppose the number of police
in the territories must reach from five hundred to a thousand. If the duty of policing
the country devolved upon the local government, what a large percentage of the subsidy
got from this government it would
take.
I believe the older provinces of Canada
have not looked upon this matter in the proper light. Some hon. gentleman here said—
3077 APRIL 18, 1902 3078
I think it was the hon. member for Alberta
(Mr. Oliver)—that it is one thing to bring
immigrants to the country and another to
keep them here. I was one of the unfortunates who left this eastern part of Canada
twenty-two years ago last month. I
arrived in Winnipeg some time in March,
got my ox and cart and started across the
prairies with others. I shall never forget
as long as I live some of the hardships 1
saw the settlers undergo. We met violent
storms at Portage la Prairie, and further
west where Brandon now is, and also about
the locality of Rapid City. There were no
towns there then. I have seen strong men
shed tears when they saw their wives and
children in water three or four feet deep
trying to cross the creeks and ravines where
there were no bridges. A large number of
people left the country as soon as they
could get out of it. I believe 85 per cent
of those who came from the British islands
in 1882 and 1883 left that country before
1885. In the first place, they could not get
to a market or to a railway centre. They
saw no sign of civilization. They had no
company and they got lonely. There were
no post offices, they could not get a letter or
send one without going fifty or sixty miles.
They had no schools, and their children
were growing up in ignorance around them.
That same condition exists in the territories
and it will have the same effect if this
government do not wake up to the facts.
I know a family; I could give their names—
I will give their names. Mr. Richard Lyons
and his family, who settled in Manitoba,
thirty-five miles from Swan River, in 1898.
Mr. Lyons had eleven of a family and came
from the north of Ireland. Although we
have provincial government there, he remained there for fifteen months before he
had a school or post office nearer than Swan
River thirty-five miles away. He wrote
me letters, and in one of them he said: I
will leave this country in three months, unless I can get a school or post office.
I
wrote to the superintendent of immigration
and finally succeeded in meeting his wishes.
That is one example of the kind of thing
that may happen in the territories.
Now, Mr. Chairman, when you think of
$357,000, with, I think $40,000 the hon.
gentleman said of local revenue, say $400,000 altogether, to supply all the municipal
and other services required in that vast
territory, I think any man who has had
experience in municipal matters must
wonder how it has been done. Most of
you who live in cities and towns in Ontario
probably know the condition here in Ottawa,
as I know the condition in the city of
Winnipeg. The revenue of the city of
Winnipeg is some $635,000, of which $135,000 is paid yearly for schools. The revenue
of the city of Winnipeg, a town of 50,000
inhabitants, is nearly double the sum with
which they have to govern that whole territory 500 miles by 400 miles. I ask if that
is fair. I say it is great credit to the
Hon. Mr. Haultain and his colleagues that
they have been able to administer the affairs
of that government as economically as they
have done during the last ten years. I do
not believe there is a province in Canada
where the same amount of money has
yielded so much benefit to the people as
has the money spent by the territorial
government.
Hon. gentlemen from the east may think
this is pecularily a western question. Now
it is not, it is more an eastern matter. A
great many gentlemen on the other side of
the House live in cities and towns which
are manufacturing centres. For instance,
we have three members from Toronto, none
of them here to-night. I would ask those
gentlemen in the city of Toronto who understand the Massey-Harris people, what a
good settler is worth to the Massey-Harris
people every year. I ask them what every new
family who goes into the territories is worth
to the manufacturers of eastern Canada.
They are worth nothing to western Canada in that way, we have no manufacturers, we
have no implements, no cloth,
woollens nor cottons, no fruits—everything
these people have to buy must come from
the east. Every settler you put there increases the wages of your artisans, increases
the population of your cities and towns in
Ontario. It does not help as half as much
as it helps you people here, and I think
it is your duty to wake up to the fact that
the more settlers you get in there the larger
your towns will grow, and the higher the
value of your lands will become in older Canada. I say this is a matter of gigantic
importance. I believe that in the supplementary estimates to be brought down this
session a very large sum of money should
be granted in aid of the people of the territories. Bear in mind also that while the
population that is going in there now very
largely comes from the United States,
Europe and Great Britain, a considerable
percentage, in fact I should imagine 30 or 40
per cent, are your own brothers, and sisters,
and sons from the eastern provinces. Are
you going to allow them to endure the hardships that your forefathers had to endure
here in the Ottawa district, and other districts of eastern Canada ? I say times have
changed, and those people should have
enough money to support their schools, to
build their bridges, and to make the necessary improvements to keep pace with the
advancing population. I may remark to the
Postmaster General, as I remarked the other
day to his deputy, that he should not expect to get, in a new country like that,
sufficient revenue to run the post offices.
In Ontario where your farmers are settled
on 50 to 100 acres of land, it is quite easy
to have a post office where there is no
settler further than three miles from the
post ofiice; but out there where the settler
has got to occupy 320 acre: of land to make
it pay, you cannot expect, at least for some
3079
COMMONS 3080
time, that the post offices are going to pay. You have got to charge up any deficiency
in your postal department to some other appropriation. You can charge it to immigration
if you like. But I say post offices ought to be given to the people out there without
any regard to whether there is sufficient revenue to make them pay. I think that in
the subsidies to be brought down at a subsequent period of the session, there should
be a sum of at least $200,000 or $250,000 to supplement the grants already made to
provide for running the territories.
Mr. INGRAM. Hon. gentlemen from the
North-west Territories have referred to
this matter as being of interest to eastern
members, and I take the liberty of discussing it from that point of view. I listened
with a great deal of attention to the remarks of the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr.
Scott), and of the hon. gentleman
who has just taken his seat (Mr. McCreary),
who represents a Manitoba constituency.
The point these gentlemen from the territories made was that a provincial government
should be granted to the people of the
territories. The hon. member for Selkirk
says it should not be given to the territories
owing to the friction that exists there at the
present time.
Mr. INGRAM. I took down his words,
and I think that is what he said. Now,
I would like to ask my hon. friend, and
the minister too, if there is friction now,
and we all know there is more or less, how
is it going to be avoided if you create the
territory into a province ? Doubtless these
gentlemen have perused the report of negotiations that have taken place between the
authorities of the North-west Territories and
the Dominion government ; they know full
well that for some years past a strong agitation has taken place there with a view
of forming those territories into a province.
Why ? Because the people find that the
immigrants coming in there in large numbers have changed the conditions, and entail
additional expense on the government
of the territories, and that the amount at
present given by the Dominion government
is insufficient. Therefore they are agitating
for a provincial government so that they
may be put on the same footing as other
provinces.
Now, I think the Minister of the Interior
said in his letter to the Hon. Mr. Haultain
that the population in the North-west Territories was too sparse, that was one of
the
reasons why the government of Canada refused to organize the territories into a province.
The next reason given was that the
increased population going into those territories was changing the conditions, and
that
the government of Canada did not think it
wise at present to organize a province, as
it might soon be necessary to have more
provinces than one. The Minister of the Interior, in his letter of the 21st of March,
1901, admitted that this question was of the utmost importance to the people of the
North-west Territories. I think he suggested that the authorities of the territories
should meet the federal executive with a view of arriving at some conclusion on the
matter. I think these are three of the points in that letter sent by the Hon. Mr.
Sifton stating why the Dominion government did not grant their prayer. Now, we are
in Committee of the Whole here and my hon. friends from the North-west are in a position
to speak more than once
on this question. Let me ask them, do
they differ with the Minister of the Interior in his conclusion, and if they do,
will they say so ? They must know some
thing of the facts in the document brought
down in the North-west Assembly the other
day. Do they consider that the territory
there mentioned should comprise one province or more ? If they think it should
comprise more than one province I think it
is their duty to say so in this House. The
people of Canada should not be kept in the
dark on this subject. It is in the interest
of the people of the east as well as of the
west to know whether there should be one
province or two, and whether the territorial government is at present administered
in the interest of the people of Canada as a whole.
There is another question and it is whether
the present machinery of the territories can
be extended cheaper than creating new
machinery. The question is whether there
is any justification for refusing to organize
these territories into a province. If we go
to the far eastern provinces of Canada we
find that the population comprising what is
now the province of Prince Edward Island
was much less when it was organized into
a province than the population of the territories to-day.
Mr. INGRAM. Yes, a much smaller population. We find also that the territories today have as
large a population as British
Columbia when British Columbia was
brought in as a province.
Mr. INGRAM. Yes, quite a bit larger.
Now, let us make a comparison with the
area of the North-west Territories with that
of British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec.
If the territories are brought in as they are
proposed to be, I believe the area of the
new province sought to be organized would
be about 302,000 square miles. British Columbia has 383,000 square miles, Ontario
222,000 square miles, and Quebec 228,000 square
miles. I find that so far as area is concerned, the people of the North-west Territories
are as much entitled to be organized
3081 APRIL 18, 1902 3082
into a province as are these other provinces
which I have named and so far as population is concerned they are in a better position
than Prince Edward Island and British
Columbia. If the people of the North-west
Territories are, organized into a province I
hold that they would be able as local authorities to understand their requirements
very much better than we could as members
of this House or as members of the Dominion government. I say that it would be
better in the interests of the. local government that the request should be acceded
to
and that the reasons given by the hon. Miniister of the Interior are not sufficient
why
these people should be refused to be organized into a province. Some better reason
should be given why these people should
be refused that which they believe to be in
their own interests. Let as take another
point : I recognize that there are some very
ticklish questions that come up in the different provinces. I recognize that the British
North America Act gives each province
certain rights as to the administration of
its own affairs, and we know as a matter of
fact that the residents of the North-west
Territories of all classes and of all creeds
will be alive to their interests, and that once
you undertake to organize them into a province and give them rights under the British
North America Act they will be very jealous
of these rights and may be. hard to please.
Is that the chief reason why the government refuse to organize these people into a
province? It strikes me after considering
the whole question as carefully as I can,
that there is really more in that objection
than there is in the reasons given by the
hon. minister who represents the government in this matter. I do not desire to take
up more of the time of the committee, nor
do I wish to advocate an expensive form of
government. but. taking the viewS of the
representatives who come. from the Northwest Territories. who have expressed themselves
in favour of the organization of these
territories into a province. I for one, feel
that if they can do that without imposing
any additional burdens on the people of the
country they are justified in advocating
that course.
Mr. McCREARY. Leaving to one side the
question of provincial autonomy for the territories at present, leaving that question
to
be settled by the territorial government at
the next general elections, we will say, taking the situation as we find it may I
ask the
hon. gentleman if he will endorse the government in increasing the subsidy by say
$200,000 a year ? Let him commit himself
upon that point.
Mr. INGRAM. The hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary has not been long
enough in this House to get an answer
from me to a question of that kind. I have
been too long in this House to answer any
questions of that kind. If the members of
the opposition occupied seats on the government side of the House, I would be very
glad to hear the leader of my party answer
that question.
Mr. OLIVER. In consequence of the suggestion thrown out by the hon. member for
East Elgin (Mr. Ingram), it may be thought
by members of the committee that there was
some question as to the position taken by
the government of the North-west Territories on this subject of provincial organization.
There is no question whatever on that point.
The North-west territorial government has
gone so far as to lay a proposed Bill for the
establishment of the territories into a province before the government
Mr. INGRAM. Does the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Oliver) approve of that Bill as he finds
it ?
Mr. OLIVER. I think, if the Bill is agreed
to in all its provisions. that it would be a
very satisfactory arrangement, but, of
course, whether I would agree to the formation of a province or not would depend
entirely on the terms of the agreement. I
hope the hon. gentleman will understand
that, but I think that I would be perfectly
safe in endorsing the Bill as it is prepared.
If a province can be secured on those terms
I think it would be a satisfactory arrangement to the people of the territories. What
I wanted to particularly point out was that
the people of the territories are not responsible in any shape or manner for coming
to
this parliament and making any indefinite
demand. They came and made a definite
demand and if that definite demand is not
accepted, then, we say the only alternative
you should take is that you should ascertain what their requirements are and meet
these requirements. I wish to add to what
the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary)
has said in regard to the making of expenditures in the territories. I had the
honour to be a member of the local
assembly for a number of years and
without going into details I will back up
the broad assertion made by that hon. gentleman that there is no province in this
Dominion and there is no country in the
world, where every dollar of revenue goes
as far in meeting the actual requirements of
the public service as in the Northwest Territories. That is as has been and that is
as it is.
Mr. INGRAM. I would like to ask the
hon. gentleman (Mr. Oliver) a question. The
hon. gentleman has not answered the point
raised by the hon. Minister of the Interior
representing the government. He said that
organization having been refused he is prepared to take the alternative of increasing
the subsidy as the next best thing, but the
point that the hon. gentleman who represents the North-west Territories should
make clear is this: Does the hon. gentleman approve of the ground and steps taken
by the hon. Minister of the Interior. repre
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COMMONS 3084
senting the government? Does he think
the reasons given by the hon. Minister of
the Interior are sufficient reasons for refusing the North-west Territories organization
into a province.
Mr. OLIVER. When a Bill on the subject is presented to the House and the hon.
minister gives his reasons I will be prepared to discuss them.
Mr. OLIVER. In the words of the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Ingram) I have been too
long in the House. The question under consideration at the present time is, the vote
of certain moneys, and that is what we are
to discuss now and not to answer all questions under the sun.
Mr. INGRAM. Here is the statement
made by the Minister of the Interior to Mr.
Haultain :
Respecting present financial requirements the
question of an increase in your subsidies is now
receiving consideration, but the result cannot
as you are aware be communicated until the
estimates are brought before parliament. This,
I have reason to hope will take place in a very
short time.
Here are the estimates now, and instead of
an increase there is a decrease of $10,000.
Last year there were $435,359 and this year
they are $425,359.
Mr. SCOTT. What I spoke about was the
vote of $357,000 which is in reality the subsidy granted to the North-west Territories.
There are some other items included in this
vote, but that is the subsidy, and it is the
same as last year.
Mr. INGRAM. And those other items appeared last year in the vote, and the fact
remains that the vote for the North-west
Territories is $10,000 less. The minister
should tell us why this vote is not increased,
and whether he intends to increase it or
not. The member for East Assiniboia (Mr.
Douglas) told us that this question was second to none in importance before this parliament,
and if that be so; and hon. gentlemen from the North-west Territories being
friends (if the government they have the
public documents at their disposal in the
departments, and they should be prepared
to come to this House and tell us whether
they endorse the action of the government
on that question or not. They have not done
so, and it appears they are not going to do
so. As an eastern member of this House,
I say that the three objections raised in the
letter of the Minister of the Interior are not
sufficient to warrant the government in refusing to give an increased subsidy.
Mr. OLIVER. We are now discussing the
vote for the North-west Territories and the
hon. member (Mr. Ingram) ought to be satisfied that we have placed ourselves thoroughly
on record on that point.
Mr. BOYD. I wish to say a few words
on this question, and principally for the
reason that last winter I had the pleasure
of attending a public meeting at Indian
Head in East Assiniboia, where about 1,000
people were gathered to discuss this very
question as to whether the territories should
or should not have their own provincial government or governments. Whatever doubt
Mr. Haultain may have had previous to
that meeting, there was not the slightest
doubt that the people present there were
quite unanimous on the question. I could
not help smiling when I heard the members
for the territories speaking, and when I
watched the only three or four ministers
present and how they acted. The Postmaster General and the Minister of Finance
were industriously reading their newspapers;
the Minister of Agriculture was busy with
his letters; they were all very indifferent,
and they thought the question of so little
account that they took the first opportunity
to get up and slide out of the House. They
have left the whole thing to the Minister of
the Interior. It is true that he has told
the people of Manitoba and the North-west
that he assumes responsibility and is to be
held responsible for the management of that
country, but if he were to tell us what he
thinks to-night—I do not expect he will for
he has been too long in the House for that—
he would tell us that he really believes that
he would give the people of the territories
what they want. The objection raised by
the hon. gentleman for Selkirk (Mr. McCreary) is not a good one. He tells us that
when the country fills up with people we
will be better able to know whether it is
better to have one or two provinces—
Mr. BOYD. What the people desire. In
reply to the statement of the hon. member
for Selkirk, I may say that every one knows
that this question can be settled with a
great deal less difliculty now than it can years hence, when the population becomes
larger. The gentlemen who represent the
North-west Territories know that very well.
They know that the larger the population
the more diversified will be the opinion. and
the greater the difficulty in settling that question as to whether it shall be one
province or whether it shall be two provinces
or three provinces. The meeting at Indian
Head was equally divided as to whether it
should be one or two provinces. I am speaking now, frankly as a man who viewed the
proceedings there impartially.—
Mr. SCOTT. Will the hon. gentleman permit me to interrupt him ?
Mr. SCOTT. What evidence has the hon.
gentleman that that meeting was equally
divided in its opinion ?
3085 APRIL 18, 1902 3086
Mr. BOYD. The applause that was given
to each of the speakers. How would you
judge the feeling of a meeting, except by
the sentiments expressed by the people in
front of you. Now then, I say that the
government might just as well face the
question at once. If we knew the truth of
the matter I believe we would find that this
is one of the questions that the cabinet is
fighting like blazes about, because has not
the Minister of Public Works told us that
they frequently fight like blazes on different
questions ? If the truth were known, it is
one of the questions which is causing trouble
to this cabinet, formed of the ex-ministers
of different provinces. It is not a question
of finance or a question of the division or the
territory, that is causing the delay. The
government might just as well admit that
the delay is caused by the question of the
schools, and the question of the language,
and don't think for a moment that the people in the North-west are not pretty well
aware of that. You might just as well face
the question now, and the less people you
have in the territories the more easily it can
be dealt with. At the Indian Head meeting the complaint was that the territories
were not able to aid railways, were not able
to do what they would do in the matter of
transportation, and what they would do if
they had their provincial government. That
is the important question that is now agitating the people of the territories. I agree
with my hon. friend from East Elgin (Mr.
Ingram) that the gentlemen representing
the territories should speak out frankly on
this subject. I understand the difficulties of
supporters of a government. I have been
over there. But if they would speak out
frankly and say whether or not they approve of the action of the government in
this instance, they would be giving much
more satisfaction to their constituents than
they are doing by the little by-play which
we have had here this evening.
Mr. DOUGLAS. If the hon. gentleman
who has just taken his seat draws his conclusions from the meeting at Indian Head,
he is very gravely mistaken as to the state
of feeling on this question in Eastern Assiniboia. I think I can safely say that not
one-tenth of the people there are in favour
of provincial autonomy in the immediate
future. They know that it must come and
that we must prepare for it; but it would
saddle additional burdens on the people.
They feel that under existing circumstances they could not carry out even a
complete municipal organization because of
the sparseness of settlement. There may
perhaps be a few people or a considerable
number of people about Indian Head who
desire provincial autonomy, who have the
opinion that it would enable them to get
more support for the development of the
country in the way of building railways.
I remember very well the argument of Mr.
Haultain, the premier of the North-west
Territories. He argued that there should
be only one province, because the larger
the province the greater its facility in raising money to build railroads; but if
that is
an argument, then it is better that the Territories should remain under the supervision
of the Dominion government, which has
better credit in the money markets of the
world than any province could possibly
have. Therefore, under existing circumstances and for some years to come, I think
we are better as we are than we could possibly be with provincial autonomy. We
know it must come, and no progressive settler would desire to retard it unduly; but
just now it would certainly impose additional burdens on the people, and, voicing
the sentiment of Eastern Assiniboia, I would
state decidedly that as far as I can interpret the feeling of the people, they are
not
in favour of provincial autonomy immediately.
Mr. BOYD. As the hon. gentleman has
been a long time in the country, I would
like to ask him how long a time would it
be before it would be ready for provincial
autonomy? I am very glad he has placed
himself squarely before his people on this
point.
Mr. DOUGLAS. Quite so ; we do not hesitate at all. In meetings where we have opportunities to
test the feelings of the people, they do not support the immediate formation of new
provinces. I am not prepared to say how long it should be. If the
population goes on increasing as it has been
doing of late years, it may come in the near
future; but certainly, under existing circumstances, I am not prepared to advocate
the immediate organization of the country
into provinces.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Would not the
question of additional burdens depend altogether on the terms under which the Northwest
Territories were formed into a province? And are not the hon. gentleman
and his friends arguing now that the subsidies should be increased? If the subsidies
were increased and the territories were
formed into a province, what difference
would it make? I do not understand the
logical conclusion of the hon. gentleman's
remarks.
Mr. DOUGLAS. We are asking an increase in the subsidy not as a matter of
charity, but as a matter of right, in view
of the increased population and the growing demands on the funds of the territorial
government, because it is found that
they cannot possibly overtake the work
which is brought under their notice, retain the population, and minister to their
comfort and consolidation in the country
without an addition to the subsidy. As I
understand, a certain amount has been
granted in each province per head of the.
population. This the government has been
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COMMONS 3088
pleased to grant in past years, and sometimes they have discounted the future, and
at periods of some ten years have drawn
on the fund in favour of the province or
the territory. What we wish them to do
in this case, in view of the rapid increase
of population, is not only to give us the
proportionate grant per head that is given
in the other provinces, but to discount the
future and enable the government of the
territories to overtake the work which is
piling up in their hands.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Perhaps I have
not made myself clear to my hon. friend;
but certainly he has not made himself very
clear to me. I asked him how provincial
autonomy could possibly increase the burdens of the people if adequate terms were
given to the North-west Territories, which
I understand perfectly are being asked, not
as a matter of charity, but as a matter of
right. I did not suggest that they were
asked as a matter of charity. Whether or
not the territories are formed into a province cannot possibly affect the burdens
of
the people, if a subsidy which the Northwest Territories regard as adequate is given
to them when they are formed into a province ; and we know that such an adequate
subsidy is being asked now. Then, how
can the establishment of provincial government in the territories result in any additional
burdens on the people?
Mr. DOUGLAS. I think I can answer the
hon. gentleman's question. The burdens I
have reference to are simply these: If we
have two provinces, or probably three,
we shall require three separate sets
of buildings, three sets of organization, and a large body of officials all
over the country, which at present we
do not need. It is one thing to speak
of one of the older provinces maintaining municipal organization to the full
extent to which it is enjoyed in Ontario
and Quebec, and quite another thing to deal
with a country where the people live four
or six or eight miles apart, and where you
may have a stretch of fifteen miles with
nobody living upon it. Hon. gentlemen
need to know the country, the immensity of the area, and the necessity of this
area being filled up, in order to maintain
and carry out with comfort and success
municipal organization. So that we believe
the burdens of the people would be very
largely increased, and the taxation would
became much higher than it is in any of
the older provinces. Hence we say it is
better to delay somewhat the organization
of the country into provinces, and to wait
until it is more fully settled.
Mr. INGRAM. I take it, from the remarks of the hon. gentleman, that in the
constituency he represents the feeling of
the people is not in favour of provincial
organization. I understand that the majority of the local representatives coming from
his constituency support Mr. Haultain's
government. I find that at Yorkton, which
I think is in the hon. gentleman's constituency, Mr. Haultain made this statement—
I am quoting from the hon. member for
West Assiniboia :
Before the local elections in 1898, the Hon.
Mr. Haultain spoke at various points throughout the territories on this subject, and
I shall
quote from the language he used at one place
to show that even three years ago this change
was looked forward to and that the present
legislature of the territories was in reality
given a mandate to open up negotiations with
respect to the subject. Speaking at Yorkton,
the Hon. Mr. Haultain said:
If the financial question is capable of other
solution, I will be satisfied to remain as at
present. The only thing there seems to be to
do is to think at least of negotiating for provincial establishment. I feel convinced
that
it will be the principal work of the new legislature before the end of its four years'
term
to enter into such negotiations. With the
greater development that now seems assured,
the needs in respect of schools and improvement will certainly develop. Outside of
direct
taxation, there seems no possibility of a solution except by provincial establishment.
That language was used, I take it, all over
the territories during the contest previous
to 1898. Then what do we find ? When
these very same representatives went to
the North-west Territories legislature, this
document, with several other sections
was passed unanimously by the representatives of the North-west Territories. And
here is a sample of these several clauses
that passed unanimously in the North-west
Territories legislature, that deals with the
question of provincial organization :
4. And Whereas, in the said address it was
represent-ed to Her Majesty as a reason for the
extension of the Dominion of Canada westward,
that the welfare of the population of these
territories would be materially enhanced by the
formation therein of political institutions hearing analogy, as far as circumstances
will admit,
to those which existed in the several provinces
then forming the Dominion.
That was passed unanimously with the
other clauses in this resolution. That shows
that the people of the territories are in
favour of provincial organization, and the
sentiment in the constituency represented
by the hon. gentleman must be strongly in
favour of that course. That being the case,
I cannot understand how he can oppose
that policy here. I can understand why
he personally should be opposed to it. Take,
for instance, the tax levied now for school
and road purposes. Is it not a fact that
it is fairly high in the territories just now'
Would it be reduced if they had provincial
organization or increased ?
Mr. INGRAM. That being the case, and
the hon. gentleman being a large landholder, I can understand that he might object
to the formation of provincial government for the reason that it would interfere
with him directly.
3089 APRIL 18, 1902 3090
Mr. INGRAM. It might cost him something. I do not say that that is the case,
but where a large landholder might find his
taxes increased were the territories given
provincial organization, that might be a
justifiable reason for his opposing such a
policy. I do not charge him with being
actuated by such a motive, because of course
it is not his personal interest that he is
considering, but the interests of his constituents.
Mr. SCOTT. If the fears which the hon.
gentleman attribute to my hon. friend from
East Assinaboia (Mr. Douglas) have any
basis in fact, the same cause would no doubt
prompt every person in the territories to
oppose our being given provincial powers.
Mr. INGRAM. Then they should not
support the resolutions in favour of provincial autonomy
Mr. SCOTT. The hon. gentleman from
Elgin (Mr. Ingram) was not frank enough
to answer the question put to him. Very
properly, in connection with the item in the
estimates to provide a sum to enable the
North-west government to carry on its administration this year, a straight question
was put, and he declined to answer it. I
shall be more frank than he was. I notice
that he had last year's 'Hansard' before
him. He has been quoting from the remarks
I made last year on the subject of autonomy. and probably does not need to be told
what my answer is to the question he
asked North-west members to answer. I
said that I believed the time had come
when the question of giving the territories
provincial rights should be taken up and
dealt with. As far as I am concerned, I
believe that the people in the territories in
general are ready to accept provincial autonomy. Of course they are not unanimous,
and I think that if the powers at Ottawa
wait until they are, they will wait until
Kingdom come, because neither on that or
any other question will the people of so
large. an area ever entertain one opinion.
It is a fact, as has been stated by my hon.
friend opposite, that the population of the
territories now is vastly larger than was
that of Manitoba when that part of the
country was formed into a province. It is
probably 600 or 700 per cent greater, and if
the population of the North-west Territories
is not as large to-day as that of the province
of British Columbia with a smaller area, it
will be before the close of the present year.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). What is the
population of the territories and British
Columbia respectively ?
Mr. SCOTT. According to the census
of a year ago, the population of the Northwest Territories was in the neighbourhood
of 160,000 and that of British Columbia a
little less than 200,000; but we received in
the territories last year a very large im
migration, the exact number of which cannot be stated. To-day, however, I think we
have a population of between 180,000 and
190,000, and probably before the end of the
year it will have swelled to 220,000 or 230,000. I have stated my own opinion very
positively, but at the same time there is a
large number of people who are very much
of the opinion expressed by my hon. friend
from East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas), and as
has been stated by Mr. Haultain, the premier of the territories—whose remarks were
quoted a moment ago—if a sufficient
grant were made annually by this parliament, there would be no cry from the territories
for provincial establishment.
Mr. SCOTT. Year after year, however,
the local authorities in the territories have
been obliged to come to Ottawa for an increase in the grant. In some years they
obtained an increase fairly satisfactory, but
the position taken by the Northwest government to-day is that which I am supporting.
If my hon. friends in this government would agree to an increase perfectly
satisfactory for this year, still it would
be better for the territories that the question of provincial establishment should
be
taken up and dealt with, because next year
we will find our needs again largely increased, and the Minister of the Interior
would have a difficult task in obtaining from
this House the increase required. Even if
he were able to provide this year the necessary increase, one which would be perfectly
satisfactory, the position next year would
be just as it has been heretofore.
The testimony which has been borne by
my hon. friends from Selkirk (Mr. McCreary)
and Alberta (Mr. Oliver) to the character of
government which the people of the territories have been enjoying for years past,
is a fair argument which can be urged
in favour of their being granted provincial
autonomy. I am willing to join in the assertion which has been made that better
government than has been enjoyed in the
last ten years by the people of the territories has not been enjoyed by the people
of any province in the Dominion. We
have as able, shrewd, judicious and careful
men at the head of our government as are
at the head of government in any province
of the Dominion. We have an educational
system, which was framed by Premier
Haultain, and in which my hon. friend from
Alberta had a hand, when he was a member
of the legislative assembly, which has not
a superior anywhere in the Dominion. We
have in the matter of education, a system
as satisfactory as that which now prevails
in Manitoba, and we have arrived at that
position without any of the turmoil which
was created before the Manitoba system
could be brought to its present satisfactory
state. But we are getting a little beside.
the question. I did not intend this evening
to give rise to any lengthy discussion upon
3091
COMMONS 3092
the question of provincial autonomy. We
are dealing now with the grant to the
North-west assembly for the purpose of
carrying on their business this year, and it
would not do our people any particular good
this year if the House were to decide that
full provincial powers ought to be granted
and at the same time allow the vote for the
present year to remain as it is, and leave us,
in some measure, in a state of starvation.
I think we should direct our attention, as
I endeavoured to direct my remarks in the
first instance, to the question of the vote
and to providing this session for a considerable enlargement of it. Possibly, it would
not be out of order to make the comparison
of the vote for this service, a service for
which this parliament is entirely responsible, and the votes for other services. My
hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) did
make a comparison in one particular. I
have taken the pains to copy the total
figures devoted to some services voted for
by parliament. I may say that, for fear
some of our friends might say I was introducing sectional questions, I have taken
votes which apply to one part of this country
as much as to any other. For penitentiaries, we spend a total of $491,490, considerably
in excess of the amount deemed to be
sufficient for the whole purposes of the government of the North-west Territories.
Legislation costs $446,290, entirely apart from
the.indemnity paid to the members of parliament. This is the amount it costs to
manage these parliament buildings and supply the printing in connection with the
work of parliament. To the Agriculture Department we vote about $400,000, apart
from the vote for the taking of the census.
Then, as my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr.
Oliver) pointed out, we spend almost half
a million dollars on immigration. That is,
we spend fully as much to bring people
into the North-west Territories as we spend
for all their local needs after we get them
there. Fisheries inspection costs $337,000,
or almost as much as this Whole vote to
the North-west Territories. The expense of
looking after the Indians is considerably
in excess of a million dollars. And, as the
hon. member for Eastern Assiniboia (Mr.
Douglas) remarked, we spend $417,000 for
the education of Indian children, much more
than we spend for the whole cost of education and all other punposes as well in the
Northwest Territories. 0n the North-west
mounted police in that territory, one single
service, we spend $400,000, and, on the
mounted police in the Yukon $450,000. The
Yukon government vote, which is exactly
similar to the item under discussion and
which applies to a country where there is
not a population, probably, of more than
25,000, costs $250,000. There is voted this
year for superannuation, $328,000. almost
as much as the entire vote for local government in the North-west Territories. I wish
to say that I am not taking the slightest
exception to these votes. Speaking more
particularly to my hon. friends in the government, and to my friends on this side,
I may say that it has been a matter of pride
to us that the general services throughout
the Dominion has been so well looked after
since the Liberals came into power. Under
the government's policy of a revenue
tariff—
Mr. SCOTT. Whatever dispute there may
be about the name, there is no question that
it lives up to the name of a revenue tarilf,
for under it Canada has been getting a sufficient revenue. And it has been a matter
of pride to us that every service that has
required looking after has been generously,
properly and adequately looked after. But,
unless a very considerable increase is made
in the vote for the North-west Territories
there is one item in which we shall be
obliged to admit that there is no cause for
pride.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). I am glad, that,
in one respect the education of my hon.
friend (Mr. Scott) is improving. I think he
is one of the gentlemen who were not able
to understand the meaning of the word
'adequate' in a resolution lately moved in
this House. I have noticed that in the various addresses with which he has favoured
the House, he has used that word at least
fifteen or twenty times this evening. It is
evident that during the period intervening
he has made excellent use of the dictionary.
I trust that some hon. gentlemen who
laboured under the same difficulty have been
employing their leisure in the same excellent
way.
Mr. SCOTT. I have been trying to learn
the resolution by heart.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). I am glad my
hon. friend's endeavours have had such excellent results. There is a good deal of
food for reflection in what the hon. gentleman has said. I, for one, am convinced
that the administration of the government
of the North-west Territories must have
been carried on in a very excellent way in
order to have given the people any semblance of provision for the public service,
seeing they have what seems to me a very
meagre sum, considering the large number
of people and the enormous territory that
has to be dealt with. It does seem that this
service cannot, out of such a subsidy, be
provided for quite as well as the people of
the North-west have a right to expect
having regard to the interests which have
been mentioned by hon. gentlemen opposite. I am still not quite clear as to what
my hon. friend from East Assiniboia (Mr.
Douglas) means when he says that provincial autonomy would increase the burdens
of the people. There are certain services
to be provided for in the North-west. They
must either be provided for by the people
in that country themselves, or they must
be provided for by all the people of the
3093 APRIL 18, 1902 3094
country, that is, through the Dominion government. I do not see how the adoption
of provincial autonomy will necessarily affect the question one way or the other.
It
is entirely a question of the terms upon
which autonomy is established. My hon.
friend who has just taken his seat (Mr.
Scott) has brought to the attention of the
House certain services upon which a good
deal of money has been spent in this country. We on this side might add to the illustrations
he has given. I might point out
to the hon. gentleman that the bringing
down of a contract with respect to the
building of a railway in the Yukon eight
days before the meeting of this parliament
has resulted in a claim against the government which will probably cost this country
nearly as much as the whole grant to
the North-west Territories in one year.
Mr. SCOTT. That was the fault of an
out of date Senate.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). I would be inclined to think it was the fault of a government that was
not able to wait for
eight days until the parliament met and
the matter could be dealt with. Of course,
these are different points of view. Another
thing I would call the attention of the hon.
gentlemen to is that this government spent,
I think unnecessarily—and I think anybody
who fairly examines the evidence will say
unnecessarily—in the purchase of the Drummond County Railway, enough to double
the subsidy to the Territories for five or six
years. The same remark is true of the contract this government made with regard to
the Grand Trunk Railway and also with
regard to a great many public works in
respect to which, during the past five or
six years, enormous sums of money have
been, as I believe, spent unjustifiably and
extravagantly. I have no doubt that if a
proper system of administration had been
adopted with regard to a great many of these
works, the amount granted to the Northwest Territories might have been increased
50 per cent during the past five or six years
without increasing the burdens of the people of this country by a single dollar. As
my hon. friend has brought some illustrations with regard to this subject, I thought
it only right to remind him of this, because
he has given me some food for reflection
in the sensible remarks he has made, and
I desire to give him food for reflection with
regard to these matters, and I trust he will
take my remarks as much to heart as I have
in all sincerity taken to heart the remarks
he has addressed to the House on that
subject.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). At last we have
had one member from the North-west
Territories on the other side of the House
coming out and expressing himself as
strongly opposed, at the present time at any
rate to provincial autonomy being granted
to the territories. I think he is the only
member from the North-west Territories
who has had the boldness to come out and
in explicit terms to take that stand. But
that hon. gentleman, I think, when he was
elected in 1896, came to this House as an
independent, he came as representing a patron organization, and he rather scorned
the
average Conservative or Liberal who came
down here to be caucused with the rest of
the members, and to respond to the party
lash. I notice that he is now just as servile
a supporter of the government as you will
find on the other side, and he does not think
it any disgrace now to be caucused with
other members, and to respond to the party
lash with the best of them; so much so,
that he is willing to give credit to the government for having taken a stand that
will
displease the people of the territories, in refusing to grant them provincial autonomy
at the present time.
Mr. DOUGLAS. May I ask a question ?
The people of the west have not asked for
provincial autonomy, and the 'member for
East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) is not advocating nor opposing provincial autonomy.
He has only stated that in his judgment the
time has not fully come when it ought to be
given, but it must come in the near future.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). Now the hon.
member for East Assiniboia has stated that
the people of the North-west Territories
have not asked for provincial autonomy. I
would like to know who their government
represents. Does not the government represent the people? Do they not voice the
sentiments of the people, and has not the
territorial assembly asked this parliament
to grant them provincial autonomy? You
may just as well say that this government
do not represent the people of Canada at
the present time, as in many things I grant
they do not. But the member for East
Assiniboia stated in his remarks that he did
not think the time had fully come when it
would be wise to grant provincial autonomy.
I do not know what he means by that qualified statement. Probably next session, if
the government comes down with a Bill
granting provincial autonomy, he will be
the first to get up and give them credit for
it, stating that he is very glad to see them
do it, and I have no doubt that had they
taken that stand on this occasion, he would
have been equally ready to give. them credit
for so doing. That shows what a good party
man he is. Now after the declaration of
the Minister of the Interior he falls in with
the views of the government and says he
believes the people of the territories do not
desire provincial autonomy at the present
time. One reason, he says. is that it will
increase the burdens of the people. I think
the question asked by the leader of the opposition was very appropriate. and I could
not see exactly what the member for East
Assiniboia meant in his reply. As the
leader of the opposition has said, it rests en
3095
COMMONS 3096
tirely with the two governments as to whether the burden of the people will be increased
or not, according to the terms that
will be made. I agree with the members
from the territories that the present subsidy
is not adequate; and by the way, the leader
of the opposition took the words out of my
mouth when he jollied the member from
West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) on his education having been advanced to that position
that he understands that word adequate far
better than he did when the budget debate
was on.
Mr. McCREARY. Probably the hon. gentleman will be a little more definite on this
point than he was on the tariff, and say
what an adequate amount will be.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). I will reply to
the hon. member in the words of the leader
of the government when he was in opposition, that is time enough to prescribe
when you are called in. I hope the hon.
gentleman will agree in the opinion of his
chief. I admit that the subsidy granted
at the present time to the territories is
not sufficient. and if autonomy was granted
to those territories, as a Manitoban I would
be quite agreeable to see better terms
granted to the new province, for then we
would have a lever to get a little better
terms ourselves. The member for West
Assiniboia says that at the present time, if
the subsidy was increased, the people of the
territories would prefer not to have autonomy. I do not agree with that sentiment.
1
think there is a feeling in the average elector of the west that the subsidy should
be
increased.
Mr. SCOTT. Does the hon. gentleman attribute that opinion to me ?
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). The hon. member said a few minutes ago that if an additional subsidy
was granted to the Northwest Territories the people would not ask
for provincial autonomy. If the hon. member looks in the 'Hansard' to-morrow he
will find that statement.
Mr. SCOTT. If I said that, I said some.thing that I did not mean to say.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). I took down the
hon. gentleman's words, and I think he will
find that declaration in the 'Hansard.'
Mr. SCOTT. I think I said that, even if
the subsidy for this present year were made
entirely satisfactory, I would still think
there was good reason for asking for a final
settlement, because next year. with the increase in population, and the increased
needs for an additional amount of money,
the Minister of the Interior would be in the
same difliculty as has been experienced in
the past in obtaining the increase annually
made necessary by increasing population
and needs.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). The hon. gentleman should thank me for having drawn
his attention to his statement, as it has
given him an opportunity of setting himself
right, and to-morrow he will have an opportunity of revising his speech in the 'Hansard.'
I think the people of the west, notwithstanding that there might be an additional
subsidy would still be in favour of
local autonomy. They all desire to manage
their own local alfairs, and even an additional subsidy would not long quiet them.
Now the reasons given for refusing provincial autonomy by the Minister of the Interior
I do not think were sufficient in themselves, certainly they were not satisfactory
to the government of the North-west Territories. Mr. Haultain had been led to believe
that this government would take into
immediate consideration the question of
granting provincial autonomy. The Minister of the Interior, in writing to him, said
that no doubt it would not come as a surprise to Mr. Haultain that the government
at the present time had decided not to grant
autonomy ; but Mr. Haultaln was surprised.
These are the words used by the Minister of
the Interior when he refused provincial autonomy to Mr. Haultain:
It is the view of the government that it will
not be wise at the present time to pass legislation forming the North-west Territories
into
a province or provinces. Some of the reasons
leading to this view may be found in the fact
that the population of the territories is yet
sparse.
I think that is an argument that will not
hold water very long. As has been pointed
out by some hon. members, the population
is not as sparse as it was when Manitoba
was created a province.
That the rapid increase in population now
taking place will in a short time alter the conditions to be dealt with very materially;
and
that there is a considerable divergence of
opinion respecting the question whether there
should be one province only or more than one
province.
I think that objection in itself is very weak.
it is, as has been said, one that will always
exist. There will always be a difference of
opinion on that subject. There is one thing
I can tell the hon. member for East Assiniboia, and that is, if only one province
is
granted, a great many of his own constituents will favour annexation to Manitoba.
But most people. I think, in the territories
are favourable to two provinces. However.
that is a question of detail. as Mr. Haultain said. that could be left in abeyance.
Respecting the present financial requirements,
the question of an increase in you: subsidy is
now receiving consideration, but the result cannot, as you are aware, be communicated
until
the estimates are brought before parliament.
This I have every reason to hope will take
place in a very short time.
Well, the estimates have been placed before
parliament and no increase in the subsidy
has been thus far announced, though the
hon. minister may later on in his supplementary estimates. and I trust he may,
3097 APRIL 18, 1902 3098
bring down an increase in the subsidy.
There is a reply made by Mr. Haultain
which shows that he was surprised at this
declaration by the hon. Minister of the Interior. He quotes a portion of the minister's
letter addressed to him sometime
previously, in 'which it was stated:
Without at the present moment committing
myself to any positive statement I am prepared
to say that the time has arrived when the question of organizing the territories on
the provincial basis ought to be the subject of full
consideration. It would appear to me that the
better way of bringing the matter to a more
definite position would be to arrange for a conference upon the subject between the
representatives of your government and a committee
of council representing the federal government.
From that declaration on the part of the
hon. Minister of the Interior, Mr. Hanltain
was led to believe that this conference which
was suggested by the hon. gentleman would
result in granting immediate provincial
autonomy to the North-west Territories,
and he thus expresses himself in his reply
to the hon. minister :
These opinions and the long delay that followed. in order to choose a convenient time
for
that 'mature and careful consideration of the
various and important subjects which will require to be debated and settled in connection
with the establishing of the territories as a province or upon a provincial hasis,'
led us to suppose that when the subject was finally taken
up it would be taken up with a view to immediate settlement.
These were the views expressed by Mr.
Haultain, and I think the reasons assigned
by the hon. Minister of the Interior for not
acceding to their demands, are poor reasons,
and surely there must be something else
behind these which, if the hon. gentleman
would be candid enough to admit it, have
influenced his position in refusing the territories autonomy at the present time.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Mr. Chairman, the discussion which has
taken place on both sides of the House has,
I think, been a desirable discussion because
of the fact that it has placed before the
country and before hon. members from the
eastern part of the country—I am sorry
that there are not more of them here this
evening—a very fair and moderate statement of the position of affairs. I can find
no fault with my hon. friends from the
North-west Territories for the manner in
which they have stated their position,
although hon. members in the committee
will see that they, themselves, are not
agreed in regard to what ought to be
done. This is no particular discredit to any
of the members who have expressed their
opinions, because the circumstances are of
such a character that there is plenty of
room for a difference of opinion. It would
be a very strange thing if, amongst men
who have formed their opinions themselves,
there should not be differences of opinion
in regard to a matter of such importance,
where all the circumstances are of such an
unusual character. It does not very often
happen that any legislative assembly has to
deal with a question involving the constitutional status of a territory such as that
which we are now discussing. The committee, perhaps, handly realizes the fact
that we are discussing the questions of the
financial and constitutional status of a territory which has almost as much fertile
land as the continent of Europe, and which
bids fair, under existing circumstances to
be an enormously important factor in the
development of the business, not only of
Canada, but of the north American continent before very many years pass away.
When I speak of the extent of that territory,
I am not speaking of the extent of its superficial area. but of the number of acres
which
are actually fertile and are capable of producing in such a way that they are fairly
and reasonably equipped for settlement in
the ordinary sense of the word. I do not
know that it is necessary for me to go into
a very lengthy or detailed discussion of the
matter, but, I would say to the committee,
that I think I am justified in taking the
position that the North-west Territories have
not been badly treated during the last five
years. Immediately upon assuming office,
I was met by the members of the territorial
government, and they made a proposal to
me in regard to what they thought they
ought to have in the way of subsidy for
the next four years. If I remember rightly,
this took place in the fall of 1896, before I
was sworn in, and before I had actually
assumed the performance of my duties in
this place. I indicated to the members of
the government what I thought, under the
circumstances, I could recommend. and I
was led by these gentlemen to believe that
the amount which I was disposed to recommend would be satisfactory for the next
three or four years. The amount which I
recommended was added to the subsidy of
the North-west Territories at the next session of parliament, and I think, under the
then existing circumstances, I had the right
to believe that in the opinion of the members
of the executive at the time of the conference that for three or four years the
amount thus added would prove a satisfactory addition to the subsidy. Then circumstances
changed, and demands were
made upon the government here for increases and additions to the subsidy of the
North-west Territories, to some extent. inconsistently with the understanding which
was reached at that time, although I am
quite prepared to admit there was nothing of
a binding character, but at the same time,
it was of such a character that I had reasonable grounds for believing that they had
succeeded in getting the government to deal
satisfactorily with the position as it then
existed. Population began to flow into the
territories, and as an hon. member from the
North-west has properly and pertinently'
explained to the committee, the expenditure
3099
COMMONS 3100
necessary on the part of the territories has
been to a very considerable extent affected
and affected unfavourably in the sense that
the expenditure has been increased to a
very considerable extent owing to the fact
that there has lately been a series of wet
seasons which have resulted in making a
very much larger demand on the resources
of the territorial government for necessary
public works and for the construction of
roads and bridges. That increase, having
been made, was continued. A still further
increase was made a couple of years ago,
and when last year the members of the territorial government waited upon us and explained
that, owing to the floods which had
taken place in the northern part of the territories, many of their bridges had been
washed away and that renewals were an
urgent necessity, a very large additional
amount was voted for the purpose of assisting them in making these renewals.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). May I ask the
hon. Minister of the Interior a question ?
Was the amount of the subsidy based in
any way upon estimated population or on
what was it based ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
No, it was arbitrarily fixed. Every year the
premier of the North-west Territories sends
down a detailed estimate. When I say it
is detailed, I should explain that it is not
detailed, as it is not a detailed estimate in
the way in which our estimates are detailed, but an estimate generally stating
what is required for each service, and giving
a certain amount of detail in connection
with the moneys that are asked for. As I
said, last year or the year before, $100,000
was voted for the purpose of enabling the
territorial government to renew bridges and
public works which had been destroyed by
the floods which had taken place the previous year. On the whole, therefore, I
think we have been, in a fair and reasonable
way, endeavouring to meet the wishes of
our friends in the North-west Territories,
and therefore, I do not think that the members of the territorial government feel
that
we have treated them illiberally, or that we
have been disposed to turn a deaf ear to
their representations. I may add that in the
first year after the government took office,
we extended to the North-west Territories
what they had been vainly seeking for years
before, a system of responsible government.
But I remember very distinctly that the
day I brought that Bill into the House, the
late Mr. Davin stood up and expressed
agreeable surprise at the Bill being brought
in, declaring that he had been trying to get
the Conservative government to introduce
a similar Bill for the previous ten years.
Great progress has been made in the
North-west. We have in the last five years
established in that country a system of responsible government, we have increased
their subsidy largely and we have reasonably and fairly endeavoured to meet them
in their demands of a financial character.
I am free to say that in the last year or two
circumstances have changed rapidly, and
the march of events has been quicker than
in former years. That is due to the rapid
increase of the population and the prospect of a still more rapid increase in the
future, I do not suppose that my hon.
friends would think that the situation were
so urgent if it were not for the fact that
the population has increased with great
rapidity. I believe the subject is one that
requires the greatest of consideration, and
I fully agree with the members from the
territories who say that it would be a
national disaster if we neglected to provide
for the public service of the territories, so
that the people would go in there and become dissatisfied, and that the tide of population
which is flowing in that direction
should be turned back as it was turned
back some fifteen or twenty years ago.
But I venture to say, Mr. Chairman, that
there is no such grievance existing in the
North-west Territories at the present time
as, within the next year at least, renders it
in the smallest degree probable that any such
disaster would take place for the reason
indicated. I think during the next year
the territorial government will be somewhat
strained in their efforts to meet their obligations if some increased assistance is
not
given. I indicated in my letter to Mr. Haultain that the subject of an increased subsidy
was under the consideration of the government. If I recollect aright the main
estimates had been brought down on the
Table of the House at that time. I may say
for the satisfaction of my hon. friends on
the other side, that the estimates to which
I referred were the supplementary estimates which have not yet been laid upon
the Table.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
In regard to what will be done or what
can be done, I shall not be able to say anything until the supplementary estimates
appear, and they will speak for themselves.
As to the criticism which has been made
on the action of the government with respect of the application for provincial autonomy—
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Before the hon.
gentleman leaves that point, might I ask
him: Has the government of the Northwest Territories any independent source of
revenue apart from that which it derives
from this grant ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Nothing substantial. The local revenues
of the North-west Territories are of a very
trivial description. I think they amount
to not more than $30,000.
Mr. SCOTT. Last year they amounted
to $80,000, and possibly this year they will
3101 APRIL 18, 1902 3102
amount to $100,000, derived from the local
land tax.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Respecting what has been said in connection with the conduct of the government
upon the application of the territorial government for provincial autonomy, let me
say I do not think that in respect to
that application, that as yet at least there
is any serious, reasonable grievance existing on the part of our territorial friends.
The settlement of the constitutional and
financial status of that vast territory is
surely worth a little consideration. The
time to consider the question, even in the
opinion of the most urgent friends of provincial autonomy, did not arrive until a
year
ago. It was not suggested until about a
year ago that the subject should be seriously
considered, and if hon. gentlemen will remember how long it takes to settle questions
of this kind and to settle them satisfactorily, I think they will admit that rash
haste with regard to a question of such
vast importance—a question which must
be satisfactorily settled if settled at all-
rash haste would not at all be conducive
to a settlement which would be satisfactory
in the long run to the people of the territories. I would not feel that I was taking
an unreasonable position before this House
if I said : That if the people of the Northwest Territories get a reasonable and satisfactory
settlement, a settlement that the
people of Canada and the people of the
territories particularly will regard as a good
settlement; a fair and reasonable settlement promising permanency; promising
lack of agitation, and difficulties, and applications for re-opening of the case in
future
years—if they get such a settlement within
three or four years I should feel very well
satisfied indeed, and I should feel that we
have accomplished that result in a comparatively short time. In saying that, I am
not at this moment indicating any view I
have just now as to when this question
will be finally and definitely settled.
I wish to say in answer to my hon. friend
for Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) whose face I see
wearing a smile of a somewhat critical
character—I wish to say a few words in
regard to what he evidently has in his
mind. He evidently has in his mind the
idea that we are deterred from dealing with
the constitutional question relating to the
North-west Territories by the possible difficulty of the separate school question
being
raised in connection with that constitutional settlement. I think some of his
friends are under the impression that the
reason why we have not dealt with it at
this session of parliament is, that there is
some political game to be played, and that
the party with which the government is
identified hopes to gain something politically by reason of the delay. I am bound
to say Mr. Chairman, so far as I am concerned and so far as I know, there is no
political advantage to be gained by either
party in connection with the settlement of
this question. I know of no political game
that can be played, and so far as the
separate schools are concerned my own
view is that the school question is settled
so far as the North-west Territories is concerned. I understand that the settlement
at which they have arrived—and I am very
happy to be able to express that opinion-
is a satisfactory settlement, and that the
Roman Catholic people on the one hand
and the Protestant people on the other, feel
that they have a satisfactory compromise
and that there is no necessity for difficulty
or agitation upon the question.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Therefore, I think we may possibly be able
to look forward to a settlement of this
constitutional question, at least when it
is proposed by the government to this parliament, being carried out without any acrimonious
discussion upon a question of that
kind which might be a most difficult and
unpleasant one to have to decide, if there
were any contention upon it.
I gave certain reasons in the brief letter
which I wrote to Mr. Haultain as to why
the government did not feel disposed to
deal with this question at the present time.
Now, I have lived a great many years in
the western portion of Canada and I think
I have some little understanding of our
people there. I sympathize with them, but
I know that when they get an idea about a
thing to be done they generally have an
idea that it should be done right off. They
are not disposed to allow the march of
events to proceed very long without having
a final settlement of what they claim ought
to be settled. They are not generally desirous to listen to counsel which goes in
the
direction of delay. My hon. friend from
Alberta (Mr. Oliver) has possibly been the
clearest exponent of that principle which
is generally followed by western people,
and he puts it very well. He says: We
have asked you for certain things and if
you are not prepared to do just exactly
what we say, why pay the shot and pay
as much as we ask. My hon. friend (Mr.
Oliver) forgets that he takes for granted
the whole of the discussion and all the
points involved in the discussion because
he says: We are entitled to what we ask
in the first place, and if you do not give us
what we ask we are entitled to fix the
amount you will give us. I think the
House of Commons will hardly admit that
that is the case, because we shall have to
take the position, however much we sympathize with our friends in the North-west
Territories, that there are two parties to
the question of their financial status, and
two parties to the question how much they
ought to have. These questions cannot
be settled by a logical proposition such as
3103
COMMONS 3104
my hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver)
puts with such clearness. A good deal of
thoughtful consideration will have to be
given to the details.
I want to say a word on two phases of
the question—what the position of the territories is, and whether it is desirable
for
them to have provincial autonomy at the
present time. I am bound to say that I
think the view expressed so strongly by
certain gentlemen representing the territories is not justified by the facts, although
there is considerable difference of opinion
on the subject. They express the opinion
that the financial difliculties of the territories would entirely disappear if they
had
provincial autonomy. Now, it has been
pointed out—and it might be pointed out
more in detail if it were necessary—that
there are services performed by the government of Canada in the North-west Territories
at thepresent time which are of an exceptional character, because of the exceptional
position of that country. We maintain a large police force there; but let not
our friends think that that police force is
maintained solely for what may be called
Dominion purposes. Not at all. We require to maintain a force of some kind for
Dominion purposes; but at present we maintain it not only for Dominion purposes, not
only because it is desirable to have a military force in so large a territory, and
where
in former years at least there were a considerable number of Indians who were somewhat
hostile in their tendency, but at the
present time we maintain a large number
of those policemen scattered about the country, singly or in groups of two or three,
for the purpose of performing the duties of
local constables; and if we undertook to
remove one of those constables from the
neighbourhood where he is placed, such a
storm would arise as no minister would
care to face. There is a stronger demand
for local police in the North-west Territories
than in any other part of Canada. I will
not be so uncharitable as to say that it is
so strong simply because the Federal government has to pay the shot; but the demand
is there, and there is some reason for
it, because at the present time and for some
years to come the population will be so
sparse that they will not be able to form
themselves into local communities and by
small local taxation give themselves the
police protection which is provided in other
parts of Canada. When the population of
the North-west Territories increases to five
of six hundred thousand, circumstances will
be different. The people will be closer together, municipalities will be formed, we
shall be able to collect our police force into
military companies for military purposes,
and the people will look after their own
police protection. But that time has not
'come yet, and that is one of the things that
are to be considered in connection with this
question. The territorial government would
not be prepared to undertake any such ex
penditure for police purposes, and if we
withdrew that police force from local service, they would have to come back to the
Dominion government and ask us again to undertake that kind of work.
There are other circumstances which I think might well lead the House to take a year
or two to consider the questions which have to be settled. We have in the Northwest
Territories a vast extent of country, and if you will take the trouble to note the
discussions which have taken place, you will find that the people who live in the
district of West Assiniboia are almost unanimously in favour of immediate provincial
autonomy and of the territories being constituted into one province, whereas in the
neighbourhood of Indian Head, where the meeting was held to which my hon. friend from
Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) refers, there is not that same amount of unanimity of opinion.
My hon. friend said he was at a public meeting, where 1,000 people were present, and
where there was a very unanimous expression of opinion ; and, if I understood him
rightly, he said that he judged of the view of the meeting by the applause given to
the speakers. I was not at the meeting, but I read a very full account of it made
by a shortland reporter, to the effect, which I think was not disputed, that the meeting
was a large and very intelligent one, that they gave a reasonable and courteous reception
and applause to the speakers on both sides, and assumed the attitude of intelligent
men who had come to listen and consider the arguments that would be presented to them;
and it can hardly be said that the people at that meeting, which assembled to hear
Mr. Haultain on one side and Mr. Roblin on the other side of the question, whether
the territories should be formed into one province, or that portion of the territories
should be united with the province of Manitoba, fully made up their minds on the question
that evening. There is still some difference of opinion among the people. There is
some sentiment in favour of that district being united to the province of Manitoba;
but the prevailing sentiment is that it should remain a part of the Northwest Territories.
If you go to the district of Saskatchewan, you will find an entirely different sentiment
prevailing among the people there. They are not in favour of the territories being
formed into one province, and they are not in a hurry for provincial autonomy; but
when it comes they do not want their district to be united with the territory to the
south. At the present time you have a vast territory there containing about 200,000
people. The census showed about 150,000 in the organized territories; there are perhaps
10,000 or 12,000 in the country to the north; and with the increment caused by the
immigration of last year, there are at the present time approximately about 200,000
people. The analogy as to the number of people who were in Manitoba when it became
a member
3105 APRIL 18, 1902 3106
of the confederation, or as to the number
in British Columbia, does not hold at all,
because those provinces were brought into
confederation by way of a necessity which
existed at that time. It was not in the
deliberate exercise of the discretion of the
parliament of Canada, thinking that it
would be an ideal or desirable state of
affairs to have 17,000 people constituted into
a province, that the province of Manitoba
was formed. It was formed because the
necessity arose. There were people there
who demanded local powers, and the peaceful settlement of the country could not
have been effected, and that territory could
not have been brought under the rule of the
Dominion of Canada, without those terms
being granted at that time. Hon. gentlemen will remember that there was a rebellion,
and it is possible that the trouble
arose only on account of the belief that
was created by interested persons that the
government here did not intend to give them
provincial autonomy or to treat them fairly.
They had to be treated in that way, because they were insisting that the existing
status should be recognized, and it was recognized as a matter of necessity. British
Columbia came in as a sovereign colony
under a bargain made with the people of
Canada, and the people of Canada had no
choice in that respect. But that is no
reason for saying that when you get 17,000
people in a territory in any part of the
Dominion of Canada, you are to form them
into a province. That is not justified by
common sense or by the precedents cited in
favour of it. I think what parliament will
be disposed to do will be to treat this question on a fair and liberal basis; but
they will desire, when they come to
deal with it, to have before them
sufficient data to enable them to feel
that they are working out a settlement
which has in it the element of permanency.
And 1 think parliament would be rather
prepared for two or three or four years
to vote sums of money, which might be reasonably arrived at as approximately what
the territories actually require for their immediate necessities, and let us get more
information with regard to what the position
will be and what the necessary requirements of the territories will be, so that
when we do arrive at a settlement, it shall
have some of the elements of finality. At
this late hour, I shall not undertake to discuss the various details which will have
to be considered in the formation of a province in the North-west. If hon. gentlemen
will look through the Bill presented for our
consideration by our friends from the territories, they will see at once that there
are
items in it quite suflicient to make any government take a little time for their consideration.
We have in this Bill a provision
that all mines, minerals, timber and royalties, belonging to the Crown, situated or
arising in the territories, and all sums due
and payable on the 1st of January, 1903,
for such mines, minerals, timber and royal«
ties shall belong to the province. In addition to other matters relating to the finances,
which were supposed to be dealt
with somewhat on the line, that has been
taken in the other provinces, and as to
which possibly no serious objection would
be taken, there is a provision that the province shall be entitled to receive, by
half-
yearly payments in advance from the government of Canada, interest at 5 per cent per
annum on the sum of one dollar per acre
for every acre of land granted by the Dominion otherwise than as homesteads or
pre-emption. I see some hon. members smiling, and I think I have convinced the committee
that there is sufficient material in
that Bill for a year's consideration. When
I said that it was desirable that we should
take a little time to consider, I do not think
I was asking anything unreasonable. I did
not discuss with premier Haultain the details of the Bill. I desire to say, in all
frankness, to the committee, that I did not
think it desirable to discuss the details. I
do not think it desirable, in a matter of
such vast importanece to the people of
Canada generally and of the territories in
particular, to unnecessarily rush the government of Canada into a record on these
questions. They are questions upon which
a good deal of light may be thrown by further discussion. The circumstances during
the last year were not propitious to a complete discussion of the question with the
members of the North-west government,
and perhaps that is one of the most important features which I ought to bring
before the House.
Mr. INGRAM. Did the delegates of the
North-west Territories come down over a
year ago to discuss the question with the
hon. gentleman ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
No, but it is pretty hard to make a categorical statement about what the members of
the territorial government did come down
to discuss. The hon. gentleman will appreciate that difliculty. I suppose that there
has been no time when I have met the members of the North-west government—and I
have met them every year since I have been
Minister of the Interior—that I have not
discussed with them, in a casual manner,
the question of provincial autonomy.
Mr. INGRAM. I understood Premier
Haultain and Mr. Ross were here a year
ago and discussed this very question with
the hon. gentleman.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The point which I want to convey to my
hon. friend is this, that during the last four
or five years, on every occasion when I
had the pleasure of meeting the members
of the territorial government, there has perhaps not been a meeting at which, in a
casual way, the question of the time when,
and the circumstances under which, pro
3107
COMMONS 3108
vincial autonomy would be given the territories, has not been more or less discussed.
But as to any meeting for the purpose of
taking up the question of provincial autonomy, in the sense of a serious discussion
of the terms upon which we would contemplate forming a province of the territories,
there has only been one discussion in that
sense of the word, and that is the discussion which took place during last year, after
Mr. Ross went out of the government. There
was a preliminary talk about a year and a
half ago, and of course some correspondence followed, and it was arranged that
there should be a discussion when we would
atempt to come down to details. And let
me say that until the discussion of this
last year, 1901, it was not understood, either
by myself or the members of the territorial
government, that we were at close quarters upon this question. We were simply
discussing it as a thing which would come
in the future, but no attempt was made to
fix a time for discussion when any settlement would be arrived at. Last year it
was arranged that a discussion should take
place, and our friends of the territorial government did urge that it should take
place
earlier. But the Minister of Finance was
obliged to go to England immediately after
the session, and a discussion in his absence
would of course have been impossible, he
being one of the members of the government whose presence would be absolutely
necessary in addition to the Prime Minister
and myself. So that until the Minister of
Finance returned from England, it was impossible altogether to arrive at any arrangement,
as to when the conference should take
place. When the members of the government who were away in England did come
back, the happy event of the visit of the
Prince of Wales occurred. That engaged
the attention of everybody some little time,
and the result was that it was impossible
to give any time for the discussion of this
question until after that event took place.
Two members of the territorial government
came down just about the time His Highness was leaving. We proceeded to get together
to discuss the question on two or
three occasions, and go into the details as
fully as possible. From time to time members of the government gave the various
phases of the question consideration, and
the conclusion I arrived at was that notwithstanding a case, strong in some respects,
was made out by our friends in the
territories, it was better that the matter
should be laid over for the present, and I
am bound to say that the more I have
thought of the matter since that decision
was arrived at, the more strongly I am
convinced that it was a wise one. I am
not desirous of binding myself this evening
to any expression of opinion, as very rapid
changes are likely to take place in the position of the territories in the next year
or
two, and it would be most unwise for us
now to undertake to settle a question of
this character, the settlement of which must
largely depend on the amount of population
in the territories. Why, one of the first
things we would have to deal with would
be a per capita allowance according to the
population, upon the assumption that the
cost of government is to be based to some
extent on the number of the population. We
were asked to fix a per capita allowance
based on a population of 250,000; but if our
anticipations turn out to be at all correct, it
will increase very rapidly, and our estimate of the number of people upon which
the per capita allowance should be based
might prove to be wholly inadequate and
erroneous within two or three years.
The suggestion was made that we should
take frequent censuses. But, there are unusual features about that; and, moreover,
we would have to face another difliculty, as
to what the limit would be upon which the
per capita allowance would be granted, because there is a limit in the cases of the
other provinces. So, the House can see at a
glance, that if you take this enormous territory which is six or seven hundred miles
long
and runs from the international boundary to
north of Prince Albert—speaking of the territory habitable in the sense of being useful
for agricultural settlement, and consider
that people are likely to go in it at the
rate of 50,000 a year and that quite probably those places where settlement is now
the thickest will be the thinnest in that respect in a few years, for unquestionably,
settlement will go in places where it has not
been hitherto—taking these things into consideration the House will understand that
rapid and great changes will take place in
the territories within a few years, and it
would hardly be the part of wise statesmanship to make arrangements that would so
completely lack the element of permanency.
The House will understand that there
would be no advantage in giving provincial autonomy to these people and having
them come down here every year for better
terms. Every province has had to come
to the Federal government for better terms.
I was a boy in Manitoba when the
representatives of that province had to come
every year for better terms. Every year
they made their pilgrimage to Ottawa, for
this purpose. This was because the elements of permanency and finality did not
exist in the terms between Manitoba and the
Dominion. The arrangements were made at
a time when population was so small and
the circumstances were of such a character
that nobody could understand what the
financial arrangement of the future needed
to be. There was constant agitation going
on in the province as to what better terms
were acceptable. And there was constant
difficulty over these questions between the
provincial and Dominion governments. We
should bring upon ourselves exactly the
same condition of affairs in the North-west
Territories. If any settlement were made
which it would be possible to get this House
3109 APRIL 18, 1902 3110
to ratify, within twelve months you would
have the territorial government asking for
better terms and for a re-opening of the
financial situation. From my experience in
the west, I venture to say that that is what
would happen. I feel confident that if some
hon. gentlemen who have agitated for autonomy, will quietly think of the matter,
they will agree with me that this would
probably be the result. So, we should not
be in a better position if they were given
autonomy. We have already given them
responsible government. To all intents and
purposes they have the advantages of provincial life, except that they do not look
after the administration of justice, registry
office or the police force. This is a great
financial relief to them. One or two things
like the registry office we would be prepared
to hand over to them if they desire.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). Would my hon.
friend (Hon. Mr. Sifton) be good enough to
inform the House what the exact status
would be if the provincial autonomy were
granted. I am not as familiar with the legislation as the hon. gentleman.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
They have responsible government, but the
jurisdiction of the government is defined
specifically by the Act of this government.
There are, as I have said, certain departments in which they have no jurisdiction,
one being the police, another the administration of justice and another the registry
office. This last is a small matter, as I say,
which might be turned over without discussion. We get a little surplus revenue out
of the registry offices, but it might readily
be admitted that they might have it. These
are the three principal subjects with regard
to which they have no jurisdiction, which
occurred to me at the present moment. My
hon. friend will see, without provincial status, they have no power to incur debt,
and
I am not sure that that is an unmixed evil.
Let the House consider that a moment—
Mr. SCOTT. Is there really any difference with regard to the police in the state
of the territory and the state of the provinces ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Speaking from recollection, I think there
are only two clauses in the constitution under which the police jurisdiction of
the provinces arises. The province has control over municipal institutions, which
has
been held in some cases, I think, to give a
certain amount of police power. In addition, the province has power over the administration
of justice. That is in reality
the clause in the constitution which gives
the provinces the power to do and to control
police work. The North-west Territories
have not the power under the present condition of things, that power being held by
the government here.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). This government retains control of mines and land and
minerals ?
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). In that respect
the position differs from that of a province.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
From the position of the original provinces.
The only two portions of Canada where
the Crown lands belong to the Dominion are
the province of Manitoba and the North-
west Territories, including, of course, the
Yukon. The control of the administration of
justice and police by the Dominion
government brings upon this government very
great expense, caused very largely by the
present peculiar circumstances of the case.
The proportionate expense would be nothing
like the same if there was a large population in the territories. The position would
be very substantially changed if there was
a reasonably large population in that district. On the question of the power to incur
indebtedness, I speak with some deference.
I do not wish to express the idea that the
people of the North-west Territories are not
as competent to conduct their own affairs
as the people of any other portion of Canada, for I think they are. But it must not
be forgotten by a body like the House of
Commons who are responsible for what
may happen in the future, that you have
there a very sparse population of about two
hundred thousand people situated in a vast
and very rich territory. If they had the
power to mortgage that territory for all
time to come, which they would have if
they were granted provincial powers, it
might be mortgaged for very unwise and
very unnecessary purposese. In saying
this, I wish to guard against the imputation
of saying that the people of the North-west
Territories are not as capable of taking care
of themselves and doing their own business as any others. But I say it is a fair
subject for consideration for this parliament
whether the time has come when power
should be given to the people of the Northwest Territories to incur indebtedness.
Mr. INGRAM. The hon. minister has
stated that if the government entered into
any financial arrangement with the Northwest Territories to form it into a province,
the financial arrangement that the government would make would not last long, that
the new province would be here in a short
time, asking for better financial arrangements. Here is what they say, if the hon.
gentleman will allow me :
A subsidy of $50,000 and 80 cents per head
on the estimated population of 250,000 is asked
for at the outset, with an increase at the same
rate until paid on a population of 1,396,091,
which is what the province of Ontario is paid
on.
3111 COMMONS 3112
Now, coupling that agreement to be entered
into with the statement made by the hon.
gentleman that the increase of population
will be so vast that he thinks it is necessary
to delay this whole matter, I want to pointi
out that when the territories start in with
$50,000 at the outset, and 80 cents per head
for every additional person coming in, the
subsidy will increase very fast until they
come to the limit of the sum paid to the
province of Ontario.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
I think my hon. friend will not find that his
inference is justified by the facts, if he infers that the result of the increase
in population would enable the people of the Northwest Territories adequately to discharge,
their financial responsibility by an allowance for government fixed simply upon the
number of population arrived at in the way
suggested by Mr. Haultain. Mr. Haultain's confidence in the ability of the Northwest
Territories to discharge their financial
obligations is, I think, derived much more
largely from certain other clauses of his
Bill, the clause, for instance, which suggests,
that they should have control of all the
mines, timber and royalties thereon, and
the clause which suggests that $1 an acre
should be given them for all the land grants
in the North-west Territories. I think if those
grants were provided for they would be
able to get along very well.
Mr. INGRAM. Supposing the hon. gentleman entered into an arrangement to grant
every prayer they asked, does he intimate
that they would not be satisfied with that
arrangement, and that they would be back
in a short time for additional money ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
No, the hon. gentleman misunderstood me.
I did not say that if they got everything
they asked they would not be satisfied, I
had no idea of suggesting that. On the contrary, I think if parliament were prepared
to give them all they asked in that Bill,
they would be willing to stay away for quite
a while. I think if they got an allowance
of a trifle over a million dollars a year it
would be a very adequate allowance.
Mr. INGRAM. I will put it in another
way. Supposing this government and the
North-west authorities entered into an agreement, agreed upon by both parties, does
the hon. gentleman mean to say that that
agreement would be broken within a short
period, and that they would be back here
for an additional amount ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The experience of the government is that
in governmental matters you cannot make a
bargain, agreed to by both parties, that will
bind people not to come back again if it
does not meet the necessities of the case.
If it does not enable them to discharge their
financial responsibility, then they will come
back. It does not make any difference
whether you make a bargain with them or
not, they will come back any way.
Mr. INGRAM. The hon. gentleman says
that if they did enter into an agreement with
them they would come back in a short time.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The question whether they would come back
for further assistance depends upon whether
you make a permanent arrangement which
will enable them properly to discharge the
functions they have to discharge. My hon.
friend will see that my argument has been
to show that circumstances are changing
so fast that the wisdom of man cannot devise any arrangement, such as this parliament
would sanction, which at the present
time would enable them to discharge the
financial requirements of their position.
Mr. INGRAM. The longer you wait the
more difficulties there will be, I suppose.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Not at all. I think for the next few years
circumstances will change very rapidly in
the North-west Territories, and I think that
when they acquire a population of 600,000 or
700,000, which may not be very far away,
then we shall have arrived at a position of
affairs in which parliament can fairly understand what is ahead of the territories,
and
can fairly address themselves to the question of permanently settling the financial
status of those territories.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). The Minister of
the Interior has referred to the very explicit statement or demand by my hon.
friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver), with regard to the amount of subsidy. I will mention
to him, however, that the views of my
hon. friend from Alberta with regard to the
granting of provincial autonomy to these
territories, do not seem to be quite so clear ;
because, so far as I was able to understand
that hon. gentleman, he said that if we
passed a Bill for that purpose such as
exactly suited him, it would be entirely
satisfactory to him. That is about as near
as he could get the hon. gentleman to commit himself.
Mr. BORDEN (Halifax). I admire my
hon. friend's caution. Now with regard to
the details of the Bill, with which I am not
at all familiar, as I have not had an opportunity of seeing it—I do not think those
details have much to do with the question.
It is a question which will have to be dealt
with by this government, it is a question,
of course, which should be dealt with in a
manner satisfactory to the territories for the
time being. But because the government
of the territories submits a Bill which this
government does not regard as satisfactory,
that of itself is hardly a sufficient reason
for putting off a settlement of this question
3113 APRIL 18, 1902 3114
for four or five years. I would like to
say to the Minister of the Interior, that some
of the reasons which he has advanced for
not dealing with this question at the present time seem to be reasons for never
dealing with it. He speaks of the question
of population. Now we do not apprehend
that population in the North-west Territories is going to stand still after the expiration
of four or five years. It will probably continue to increase, at least we hope
it will, at the rate of 60,000, 70,000 or 80,000 every year, and that for many years
to
come. My hon. friend suggests that the
question should be put off four or five years,
or until the population attains 600,000 or
700,000 people. Well, is there any particular reason why the people of the Northwest
Territories, when they have attained
the number of 200,000 or 300,000, should not
be entrusted with the government of their
own territory ? My hon. friend refers to
the fact that they have a very rich country, a country of great resources. Is it not
true that we may place the same confidence
in the people of that country as we place
in the people of other communities in Canada ? Is there any special reason to suppose
they will unduly mortgage their future?
There is not a province in Canada that is
not capable at this very moment of abusing its borowing powers so as to make itself
hopelessly bankrupt, not one ; and why
should it be supposed that these people are
any more likely to abuse their borrowing
powers than the people of Ontario, Quebec,
or the maritime provinces ? I am glad to
note that my hon. friend regards the school
question in that country as satisfactorily
settled, and I trust that it is so. With regard to his view that if terms were made
with that territory now these gentlemen
would come again year by year, I suppose
that is more an argument of convenience,
from the standpoint of the government, than
otherwise. It does not seem to possess
much value, even from that standpoint, because the people of the North-west Territories
are coming every year, as it is now, and
if they should continue to come it will occasion no greater inconvenience to the government
than it has in years past.
I do not see that the financial question,
or the question of making an arrangement
on a per capita basis, if it is an adequate
reason now, will not be an adequate reason
in the future for preventing these territories
from having self-government. My hon.
friend says that it is difficult to arrange it
upon a per capita basis and that even the
proposal which has been suggested of holding a census at frequent intervals is not
sufficient. How will my hon. friend deal
with it at the expiration of four or five
years ? Will not exactly the same difficulty present itself then to the government
that presents itself now ? We do not suppose that the population of the territories
will not continue to increase by leaps and
bounds after the next four or five years,
and will there not, therefore, always be
the same difficulty that exists now ? My
hon. friend did not make himself very
clear to me on that point, because I do not
see, if there is a certain difficulty now existing which the government has to face,
that it will not present itself in the future
if the settlement is delayed for four or five
years. There is, it seems to me, a strong
reason for lending an ear to what these people demand in this respect, and it is that
the
people of the North-west Territories will be
more adequately represented in respect to
local matters if they possess provincial autonomy than they are at present. Certain
branches of their government are dealt with
here as my hon. friend has stated in his
speech. If provincial autonomy were granted
to them, if they had the right of provincial
self-government, then, such matters would .
be dealt with in their own legislature by gentlemen who are more familiar with the
wants and necessities of that country than
the majority of the members of this committee. I feel, here, that the great majority
of the members of this House are not adequate—if I may be pardoned for the use
of the word—to the discussion of these subjects because they do not understand the
country, because they do not understand
the people, or their wants, or necessities as
well as the people who live in that country,
or as well as hon. members from that country. In that respect it would be a very
important advance in the government of
that country if these local matters, which
are ordinarily assigned to provincial governments, should be dealt with by the people
of the North-west Territories themselves,
through their representatives in their own
provincial assemblies. I do not pretend to
have given this subject sufficient consideration to make my remarks of any great value.
What I have said is merely my impression
gathered from what has been placed before
the committee to-night so fully and ably by
my hon. friends on both sides of the House
from the North-west Territories, and from
statements which have been made by the
hon. Minister of the Interior ; but, having
regard to the information which I have derived from these hon. gentlemen, it does
seem to me that the hon. Minister of the
Interior is inclined to unduly postpone the
granting of provincial rights to the people
of the North-west Territories in stating
that it is not a matter which can be properly or reasonably considered until the expiration
of four or five years from the present time.
Mr. BOYD. Mr. Chairman, I rise to correct a wrong impression which the hon. Minister of the
Interior derived from my remark about the Indian Head meeting. What
I wished to convey to the committee was,
while the meeting was divided as to whether the boundaries of Manitoba should be
extended into the territories, or whether
they should have provincial government in
3115
COMMONS 3116
the territories as they are now known, if I
could gather anything from the meeting at
all, it was that there was the greatest possible unanimity that some form of local
government should prevail.
Mr. BOYD. Apparently that is the way
they viewed it. I think we must admit that
it is an unfortunate thing, after the experience which the hon. gentleman, now
the head of his department, has had in
Manitoba, if an arrangement cannot be
arrived at which will be satisfactory. There
might have been some excuse in the years
gone by with the government that preceded
the present government in total ignorance
of Manitoba at that time, but I think that
it is unfortunate, to say the least, that at
this time and with the experience that these
men have had of the west, we are not able
to agree on some form of government here.
I am pleased that this debate has brought
out something that it is quite evident was
not known at the time of the Indian Head
meeting. I heard many of the people say
after the meeting that they were pleased to
have Mr. Haultain placed in such a position
that they could understand where he was.
It is evident that Mr. Haultain has not been
able to ascertain exactly where the hon.
Minister of the Interior stood. However, I
think that this debate has brought forth
very clearly the fact that he, for the present, at least, is not prepared to say that
they should have provincial government in
the west for the next four or five years. It
is quite clear that has been brought forth
and also it has been brought out that the
form of school legislation that they now
have would have been satisfactory to him.
I, for my part, trust that it may be and
whatever will satisfy them will satisfy me.
We have also had brought forth in the debate the fact that the hon. member for
East Assiniboia (Mr. Douglas) is not in
favour of a provincial government.
Mr. BOYD. Not at the present time.
The hon. gentleman wants four or five
years delay.
Mr. BOYD. He is not very definite. We
know where he stands. We know where
the hon. member for West Assiniboia (Mr.
Scott) stands, but we are not so fortunate
as to the hon. member for Alberta (Mr.
Oliver). He will probably tell his constituents all about it. I am quite free to admit
that if the government are not going
to give the people of the North-west this
form of government I will support a proposal to increase the amount of the subsidy
to them. While I do not suppose it would
affect the action of the present government,
I do not mind telling hon. gentlemen what
my position is in regard to the form of
government in that country. I believe we
should have two provinces in that country.
The experience which we have had in the
country from which the Minister of Finance
(Hon. Mr. Fielding) and the hon. leader of
the opposition (Mr. Borden, Halifax) come,
I think, shows us that a multiplicity of
governments is not the wisest or the best
thing to have. But, in the west, I do not
think it would be wise to have three or
four small governments. Nor do I believe
that the people of that country, or the members of this House will be satisfied if
you
say to them : We propose to form one
government in the North-west Territories
and to constitute a province comprising 1,250,000 square miles alongside of another
province with 250,000 square miles. I do
not think that the people of the western
country will be satisfied with that; at least,
I do not believe the people of Canada will
approve of it, nor do I think the people of
Canada will look upon it as a fair distribution of the territory, but I do think that
if
it is fairly discussed and laid before the
people of Canada, they will agree that there
is room for two large and prosperous provinces in that country. That will be extending
the boundaries of Manitoba a reasonable distance, and that each of them
shall be in that way sufficiently large. I
do not hesitate to say that this is my view,
and the government is welcome to the benefit of it ; not that I expect they will give
attention to any opinion that I may express on the subject.
Mr. SCOTT. The hon. gentleman (Mr.
Boyd) has endeavoured to explain the reference he made to the feeling expressed at
the Indian Head meeting. I understood
him to say that the people were divided
there on the question as between one or
two provinces.
Mr. SCOTT. The question as between
one or two provinces in the North-west Territories on which the people are divided,
is
as between two provinces or one province
to be made up out of the present organized territories. The Indian Head meeting was
called to hear a discussion between the premier of the territories and
the premier of Manitoba on the question as to whether the North-west Territories should
be formed into a province,
or whether part of the North-west Territories should be placed in the province of
Manitoba, which is an entirely different
question. My hon. friend the Minister of
the Interior stated that there were various
opinions amongst the people of the territories, and that in certain parts of the territories
there was a feeling in favour of a
portion being placed in the province of
Manitoba. I would bring to the attention
of the House that within the last few days
this matter was voted upon in the legislative assembly at Regina, and by a practi
3117 APRIL 18, 1902 3118
cally unanimous vote the representatives
of the people in the legislature there decided that they did not wish any part of
the North-west Territories to be placed in
the province of Manitoba. There may be a
few people scattered here and there who
would not object to the annexation of some
part of the territories to the province of
Manitoba, but the opinion as expressed by
the representatives of the people in their
assembly was unanimously against division
of the territories, by taking away any part
lying to the westward of Manitoba and adding it to that province. I do not know that
this debate upon provincial autonomy in all
its phases is appropriate to a discussion of
this item, but let me say a word with reference to certain 'demands,' it we may call
them so, or, suggestions that were made by
the responsible people representing the
North-west Territories. The Minister of the
Interior has quoted a clause in which they
practically demand—or in which they suggest, at all events—that the public resources
should be handed over to the local authority. The hon. minister also said that he
doubted whether any agreement which the
House of Commons at the present time
could be got to accept, would be such an
agreement as would not compel the Northwest Territories to come back here within
one or two years. That simply proves to
my mind that the demands or suggestions
made by the government of the North-west
are not unreasonable. It may be that to a
majority of the members of the House of
Commons at the present time, they might
seem unreasonable, but if, unless these suggestions are adopted, the position is going
to involve a lack of permanency in the arrangement, then we must come to the conclusion
that there is reason in the suggestion made by those who represent the
North-west Territories.
I dealt at some length last session with
this phase of the question, devoting myself
not to an argument in favour of the proposition that the time had arrived, but to
some
phase of the terms which I thought ought
to be arranged. I say now, as I said then,
that I do not believe that any arrangement
will have the basis of permanency, or that
any arrangement will ever be arrived at
that would be satisfactory to the people of
the North-west, except an arrangement by
which the public resources shall be handed
over to the local authority, and that they
shall be placed upon the same basis as are
the people of the other provinces of Canada,
except the province of Manitoba. Leaving
that phase of the question, and turning to
the item, it is evident that the people of the
North-west Territories are not going to be
granted provincial autonomy this year, and
that being so, the local authority needs money
to carry on this year's business. I accept
what has been said by my hon. friend the
minister, and I am glad to have the intimation that there will be an increase brought
down in the supplementary estimates. But
with regard to the reply he made to my
hon. friend from Alberta (Mr. Oliver) respecting the fact that there were two sides
to the question, even with regard to the
estimate; I do not know that it would be
fair to adopt that statement with too great
positiveness. As I endeavoured to explain
at an earlier stage, this in reality at the
present time, is simply one of the ordinary
services which parliament is in duty bound
to provide for. With regard to every other
department of government, the minister has
the advice of officers who are directly responsible to him, as to the money he asks
the House of Commons to vote; but with
regard to this particular service the Minister
of the Interior has no responsible officer
who is in a position to declare whether the
estimates that are submitted by the Northwest government are reasonable estimates
or not. I therefore say that the demand
that is made by the North-west government has in a great measure to be accepted
as final. The North-west authorities are
the people who make the estimate: they
are responsible to the electors there for the
amount of the estimate which they present,
and therefore this service is in a different
position from probably any other service
that the House of Commons has to provide
for. The authorities there have this year
stated that they need an amount approximating $600,000. As a matter of fact, estimates
were brought down in the House of
Assembly at Regina last week appropriating
about $600,000. I accept with pleasure the
intimation of the Minister of the Interior
that an increase will be provided in the
supplementary estimates, and I wish again
to impress upon him as strongly as I can
the real necessity for a very large and substantial increase.
Mr. HENDERSON. It is early yet, only
two minutes past twelve, and we have a
large subject before us. Possibly we cannot
do better than discuss it fully even at this
late hour of the night. To my mind we have
a very serious problem to settleinthe Northwest. I look upon this question as one
that
will require the very best consideration
this government can give to it. A new population is coming in to the North-west Territories;
coming in from various countries,
and no doubt that population will demand
increased rights. To my mind, so long as
the people of the North-west Territories consider themselves only as wards
of this government, no spirit of self-reliance will ever assert itself amongst them.
They will realize that they are dependant on
us for the little bit of money we choose from
year to year to dole out to them, and instead of becoming a great people, they will
feel that they are simply the wards of the
rest of the Dominion. Now, I would regard
that as a matter of considerable importance.
The sooner these people realize that they
stand on the same basis as all other
portions of the Dominion, the better it will
3119
COMMONS 3120
be for Canada. Who has a right to say
when provincial autonomy should be given to the North-west ? I do not claim that we
here have any right to dictate to those people or coerce the North-west Territories
to any form of government. When confederation was brought about we obtained our charter
from the parliament of Great Britain ; but the parliament of Great Britain did not
pass the British North America Act until the people of Canada asked it to do so; and
when that parliament was asked by the people of Canada to crystallize into law a constitution
for the untied provinces, it did not hesitate to do so ; and it framed that constitution,
I believe, entirely on the basis which we desired. Now, we stand in relation to the
North-west Territories very much in the same position that the parliament of Great
Britain did to the old provinces of Canada ; and to my mind, when the people of the
North-west demand provincial autonomy, this parliament had better not hesitate one
minute, but give them what they desire. I believe that will be better for the Dominion
as a whole, and materially better for those people, more especially for the new population
who are coming in, and who will join in giving effect to the new form of government
which will be permanent ; and there will be a greater spirit of independence among
the people. They will realize that they have their rights, that they are Canadians
in the true sense of the word, and they will become better citizens. For my part,
I would not for a single day withhold provincial autonomy from those people after
we learn that they desire it. There seems to be some difference of opinion amongst
the hon. members who come from that section of the country as to what the people of
the North-west do desire. One hon. member says that in his section they are opposed
to provincial autonomy, and other members say that the people in their sections take
the opposite view. To my mind the best guide we can get is the government of the North-west
Territories. Mr. Haultain, the Prime Minister of those territories, is certainly more
immediately in touch with the requirements of that country and the sentiments of the
people on the question than hon. members representing that country in this parliament.
I find, in a letter which he has written to the hon. Minister of the Interior only
within the past few weeks, he says :
I am prepared to say that the time has
arrived when the question of organizing the territories on a provincial basis ought
to be a subject of serious consideration.
Mr. Haultain, we are told, is a good ruler and administrator, has economically handled
every dollar handed over to him, stands high in the estimation of the people, has
been kept in power for a considerable length of time, and seems to voice the requirements
of the country. Therefore I am disposed to attach considerable weight to what he says.
We are told by our friends from the Northwest Territories that there would be no cry
if a sufficient amount of money were given by this parliament to the North-west Territories
to meet their expenses. I am not sure that the whole thing is a matter of money. I
think there is some sentiment above that. Those people realize that they are simply
the children of the Dominion, being taken care of by the rest of the Dominion, that
they have no such status as we have in Ontario, in Quebec or in the small province
of Prince Edward Island. They feel that they are the wards of the nation, like the
Indians, that we give them so much money and send police out to look after them. In
that way they feel that they are not citizens of this great Dominion to the same extent
as the people of all the other provinces. I have no objection to vote more money to
the North-west Territories. I think the present allowance is too small for their growing
needs, and I do not think the government will meet with any opposition if they increase
the grant. At any rate, we cannot afford to have those people feel that they are not
treated fairly. We shall have to submit very largely to what they determine to be
best in their own interest, and if we can satisfy them more readily by giving them
provicinal autonomy than by giving them a larger grant. I would say, give them provincial
autonomy, and let us satisfy them in the best way we can. But if hon. gentlemen stand
out and say that the time has not arrived for provincial autonomy, and that further
demands must be made on the treasury of this country, in order that adequate assistance,
as we are told, may be given to them to meet their requirements, the best thing they
can do to obtain that adequate assistance, is to join in giving adequate protection
to the industries in the east where a large part of this money comes from, and then
they will have better hope of fulfilling their expectations. Hon. members from the
west must sink some of these small ideas which they have, and become men of broad
minds ; and when they want to get an adequate sum to carry on the affairs of their
country, they must deal on adequate terms with the rest of the Dominion, where a large
part of the money is raised.
I hope the day is not far distant when we will realize that another great province
has been added to the Dominion. If there is the slightest fear that there is going
to be trouble in the west over the question, I hope that the government will at once
take the matter into their most serious consideration. They should not have allowed
the simple matter of the Finance Minister having to go on a pleasure trip to England,
or the visit of a royal personage to Canada, or any reason of that kind to prevent
their taking up this question. Let us have the question settled before any trouble
arises which might perhaps cause another rebellion in the North-west.
3121 APRIL, 21, 1902 3122
Mr. TAYLOR. I think we might very well now adjourn. In any case there is no quorum, and considerable
business has been done.
Some resolutions reported.
On motion of the Minister of Finance House adjourned at 12:30 a.m. Saturday.
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