1
THE LEADER.
REGINA, N.W.T., THURSDAY EVENING, APRIL 27, 1899
THE PUBLIC LANDS
WILL BE CLAIMED!
Territorial Treasurer Ross Announces the Government's
Proposition Relating to Provincial Establishment.
RIGHT TO OWNERSHIP OF THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.
An amount on Account of Lands Alienated Will be Asked to be
Made our Capital Account in the Scheme of Confederation,
and the Remaining Public Lands to be Demanded for the
Territories—The Manitoba Basis, Urged by Calgary Boomsters, Would Leave Us in a State
of Perpetual Provincial
Poverty—The Budget Debate in the Assembly—Consecutive
Report of Last Week's Proceedings in the House.
THE ESTIMATES.
The Estimates for the year 1899 total
$413,625.73, divided under the following heads:
| Civil Government........... |
$43,826 77 |
| Legislation................. |
30,125 00 |
| Administration of Justice... |
9,950 00 |
| Public Works................ |
136,000 00 |
| Education................... |
158,000 00 |
| Agriculture and Statistics.. |
16,650 00 |
| Hospitals, Charities and Public Health............... |
8,750 00 |
| Miscellaneous............... |
10,323 76 |
Public Works.—The amount of Public Works is made up as follows:—
Caretakers, messengers and stable suplies, $1,255; maintenance of legislative
buildings and grounds, $2,445; maintenance and rent of Normal school
buildings, $980; inspection of public
works, $3,500; aid to local improvement districts, $14,000; inspection of
coal mines, steam biolers and public
wells, $4,000; expropriation of lands
for roads, resevoirs, etc., painting
bridges, advertising for tenders, lithographing maps etc., $3,250; repairs to
public works, $5,000; culverts, $1,000;
bridges $24,070; surveys (raods, etc.,)
$5,000; tools and implements, $2,000;
dams, $5,000; well boring $18,000; fireguards, $2,500; Edmonton-Peace River- Nelson
River road and trail, $10,000;
clearing, grading and improving main
roads and approaches to brdiges, $30,000. Total $136,000.
Education.—The Education Vote includes $140,000 for grants to schools;
$400,grants to high schools; $3,600,
Normal school and institutes; $9,500,
inspectors' salaries and expenses; $1,500, examinations; and $2,500, education of
deaf mutes.
Agriculture.—To agricultural societies, $4,000; stock importation, $1,500;
experimental work, $1,500; estruction
of wolves, $1,500; destruction of noxious weeds, $4,000; collection and distribution
of agricultural and vital statistics, $1,800; brand book, $1,200; encouragement of
institute work by agricultural societies, $1,000.
THE BUDGET
The budget was brought down in the
Legislature on Tuesday of this week.
In a later issue there will be published in THE LEADER, as in former years,
a fairly full report of the Budget Debate in the Assembly. This week we
can give only a cursory glance at the
speech of the Territorial Teasurer.
Mr. ROSS in making his first budget
statement spoke nearly two and a half
hours. In the latter part of the speech,
after he had finished the dry details
of the estimates and when dealing with
the question of the future of these Territories, Mr. Ross spoke with a fluency
and eloquence which he had never before exhibited on the floor of the
House. His announcement of the view
of the Government on the question of
the proper method of approaching the
problem confronting the country—the
problem of provincial establishment—
was highly important and notable.
The hon. the Treasurer gave a hurried revierw of the financial history of
the Assembly and its forerunner, the
old North-West Council. The first financial statement presented in the Territories
was made in 1878, showing a
revenue of $526 and no expenditure.
The next year, 1879, revenue had fallen
off to $25 and expenditure risen to
$237,37. In 1879 the first federal grant
was drawn and in that year the revenue from all sources was $20,000. In
1886-87—lastyear of the Council—the
total appropriations were $85,578; 1888
(first year of Legislature)—$105,000.
The following is a summary of Dominion grants in various years since 1891;
1891-92—$195,700; '93-'94—$199,200;
'94-'95—$225,000; '95-'96—$267,000 (including $25,000 for relief); '96-'97—$242,879;
'97-'98—$282,879. In these latter
years local revenues ranged from $20000 in 1892 to $30,000 in 1897, and for the
present year are estaimted at $49,000.
The estiamted revenue for the present
year includes: Balance from last year,
$71,745; Dominion grant for Peace
River road, $10,000, federal grant $282,979; local revenues $49,406. The Government
hopes that the federal grant
may be increased but cannot anticipate
the Dominion supply bill for the year.
The sum asked from Ottawa is $535,000.
Mr. Ross went into a very full explanation of the Estimates, the main items
of which appear above. One pleasing
statement made was that the C.P.R.
Co. has agreed to give free transportation to Territorial public works officers,
which wil enable the public works vote
to go much farther than it otherwise
woiuld. The item of $10,000 for Peace
River road is an amount paid by order
in council from the Dominion Government, the sum being entrusted by the
Dominion Public Works Department
to the Territorial department for expenditure on the road. While electoral boundary
lines are not regardedin
apportionment of moneys now, yet the
great natural divisions are kept in
view. On public works there were expended last year in Northern Alberta
$36,000, Southern Alberta $49,000, Western Assiniboia, $39,000; Eastern Assiniboia,
$51,000; Saskatchewan, $38,000. After expaining the estimates,
Mr. Ross dealt with the position of the
Territories financially, and made a
statement of what the Government believed shoudl be presented in the way
of a constitutional proposition. There
could be no question, he said, but that
the federal grant of $282,979 was totally
inadequate. The Government had this
year asked $535,000, the amount deem
ed necessary for the ordinary services
dealt with by the Assembly. When
considering any proposition for provincial establishment it has to be remembered that
those services did not embrace all the services which as a province we should be obliged
to bear. In
addition to the grant to the Assembly
Parliament votes for Lieut.-Governor's
ofice $5,880; incidental justice $2,000;
land titles offices $15,000; insane
patients, $50,000; schools in unorganised territory, $2,000—these items made
up the vote for North-West Government. Besides there were voted items
of $40,000 for administration of justice;
$2,500 for sheriffs; $15,000 for jails; $7,000 for agricultural societies; $5,000
direct vote besides other assistance to
creameries. Then there would be at
least a proportion of the immigration
expenditure; the expenditure on
court houses has always been
borne by the Dominion; there would
be some expenditure for law and order.
While no one could contend that the
Mounted Police vote was a provincial
expenditure, yet as a province we
would have to bear expenditure for
law and order as do the provinces.
The computation showed that to-day
Parliament was voting about $550,000
for provincial services in the Territories—a sum far short of the requirements, as
instead of the item of $282,979 granted to the Assembly he had
shown that there was need for, and
the Government had asked for, $535,000; which meant that local services
in the Territories to-day demanded an
annual expenditure of $800,000.
This being the case it was well
to look and see where we would
land if the course was followed
which some were advocating.
Manitoba's subsidy was made up as
follows: Per capita grant of 80 cents a
head; $50,000 for government; 100,000 in lieu of lands; and interest on
capital account computed at $32 per
head of population. On such a basis
the Territories would receive say:
$120,000 per capita grant; $50,000 for
government; then on capital account
for argument's sake place the principal
at $3,250,000 (although he might say
that we were already charged with
$3,000,000 on this account) which would
give $162,500; we have about four and
a half times Manitoba's area of land,
and shoudl therefore receive say $400,000 on that account. This made a
total of $732,500,—and remember this
would be a fixed amount, incapable of
enlargement. Alraedy the Assembly
was asking $535,000, and Parliament
was appropriating over $200,000 a year
for local services besides. In view of
these figures was there any man willing to believe that an arrangement on
Manitoba' basis would be a good bargain for the Territories to make? That
bargain once made, and the country
would be in the position tha tno increase could be got in the way of subsidy except
on the 80 cents per capita
provision up to a certain limit.
Would anyone say that such a bargain would satisfy the needs of the
Territories, even if the amounts
he had named could be got,and it was more than likely
that there woudul be difficulty in obtaining so mcuh as he ahd computed
on that basis. The bargain would be
just about sufficient for present needs;
but in five years, with any influx of
population, we would be in a position
that we might very well turn to a
method that the House had heard
something of, namely, commence borrowing. The Government believed that
it was not needed to make that kind of
a bargain; they believed the Territories
shoudl demand the accounting by the
Dominion of the whole land area excepting those portions homesteaded.
They believed that we were entitled to
possession of all the public lands, and
more than that, they believed that an
accounting shoudl be made for the
lands which had been given away or
alienated,—given for railways some of
which were not built in the Territories.
Those lands alienated had been given
by Dominion vote for Domini on purposes. Land was practicaly the only
revenue producing asset which a province could have—an asset which grew
in value with the growth of population,
—the only asset capable of maintaining an equilibrium between revenue
and expenditure. Mr. Ross made a
computation of the lands. There was
altogether 300,000 square miles; 190,000,000 acres. One-half this areathe even-numbered
sections-were set
apart for homesteading; calculating
pre-emptions, one-qurter of the onehalf, gave 120,000,000 acres. Then 35,000,000 acres
had been given away as
subsidies to railways. It was fair to
argue that those 35,000,000 acres had
been used in lieu of Dominion cash.
In Canada about $200,000,000 has been
spent in subsidies to railways, and
these land subsidies shoudl be considered in the same light as cash subsidies—federal
payments for federal
purposes, and when local resources are
used for federal purposes the province
or the territory whose resources are
thus taken shoudl be given credit.
This principle was accepted in British
Columbia. The Dominion required
land in that province for raiway purposes,—and had to buy it. The Dominion took a
29-mile strip of rocks in
British Columbia, the price being a
capitalisation yielding $100,000 a year,
which is the amount paid on account
of the land yearly by Parliament to
British Columbia. So if $35,000,000
acres of our lands have been taken for
railway purposes, the price should be
capitalised for our benefit. One dollar
an acre would be a low rate for these
lands, and it would be fair to ask that
interest be paid by Parliament to
the Territories on a capital account
of $35,000,000 on account of lands so
alienated. That would give a revenue
of $1,000,000 a year. (Cheers.)Then
there was the 35,000,000 acres not alienated, and whichshould be handed to
the Territories. Set apart 35,000,000
acres of that which probably the federal government could properly claim
represented the cost of having surveyed and administered the lands, and
there was left 50,000,000 acres to be
taken by the Territories as a revenue
producing asset, a tangible capital account, which would grow in value with
every cent's expenditure, which would
be made more valuable by every dollar's
expenditure on schools, on road improvements, on any and every provincialobject. As
population increased
that asset would increase in value, because the law of supply and demand
governed the price of land as everything else. So as our needs grew, our
revenue would also grow. This was
the class of proposition that this Government proposed to the people of the
Territories. (Cheers.) When they
asked for provincial establishment
they would certainly ask for the power
to borrow; they would want every
power possessed by any province, but
he trusted that the day would be far
distant when this country woudl need
to resort to the use of the power
to borrow. The resources of the country were such that there should be no
need to brorrow at least during the time
of the members of that House. The
above was the proposition which the
Government would ask the people to
consider. The House had no mandate
to make a bargain, but the time had
come for a change, and it was the duty
of public men to seek to educate the
people and to interest the people in the
subject. Every man in the House
and country shoudl stand shoulder to
shoulder on the pricniple, the justice
of the Territorial claim. The lines between Grit and Tory should be obliterated for
the time being until the Dominion be brought to admit the principle that those lands
were ours. It
was the duty of our representtives in
Parliament to act in concert on this
question, which was the most momentous that could engage their attention
during this term.
At the evening session
Dr. Brett,
leader of the Opposition, made a two
hours' speech. His criticism of the
Estimates was mild. He had no objection to urge against any of the
items, but urged that someof the pulic works sums, to be voted in bulk,
should have been itemised,as has been
one here in former years and is done
in all other legislatures. He contended that the House might reasonably
expect thatby this time the Agriculture Department would have something to show forits
expense, but he
failed to discover anything done. He
held that the Government should do
something to encourage immigration,
whereas they appeared to be anxious
to discourage immigration in alleged
proof of which assertion he read the
letterfrom Mr. Ross to the Regina
Board of Trade respecting application
for a well auger, appearing in THE
LEADER last week. The Government's
proposition respecting the provincial
question-the demand for the lands—
Dr. Brett declared the wildest freak
of imagination ever heard placed
by a responsible minister of the crown
before a responsible assembly, and he
believed the proposition was made
simply to enable the Government to
dilly-dally and do nothing and thus
hold the support of those averse to
establishment, while at teh same time
appealing by teat alluring but ethereal
project to those sections of country
which demand advancement.
Mr. Brown followed Dr. Brett in a
fluent and telling speech, pointing out
the weakness of Dr. Brett's position
and urging that if the Government's
proposition in regard to public lands
was just, the public men of the Territories would be recreant to their trust
did they fail to make every endeavor
to establish the claim.
After
Mr. Meyers had spoken briefly,
commending on the whole the Government's policy, there was a long pause.
Ultimately,
Mr. Ross arose and said if no other
member wished to speak he would
close the debate.
Mr. Patrick then took the floor. On
the establishment question Dr. Patrick
held that two future provinces should
be now mapped out, their bounds determined, and for the time being their
legislation and government be carried
on by one legislature and government;
—in effect, a legislative union such as
prevailed in Upper and Lower Canada
from 1841 to 1867. These future provinces might remain for some time as
a territory and still obtain and exercise
the powers of borrowing—in fact all
provincial powers, except that their
legislation would be subject as now to
the Governor General in Council.
After another long pause, the motion
that the House resolve into Committee
of Supply was put and carried.
The failure of Mr. Bennett to join in
the debate was a cause of general surprise, and the conviction prevails that
the Government's proposition took the
wind so completely out of Mr. Bennett's sails that he recognized himself
as being hopelessly at sea.
3
THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1899.
THE POLITICAL POSITION OF THE
TERRITORIES.
Mr. Ross went on to say that he
would now, like to make a few observations with regard to the present
position of the Territories, and the
position be thought we should be in:
and he would then have something to
say with regard to certain propositions
which had been made with regard to
the political position of the Territories.
The local revenue now announted to
$45,000 or $50,000. It indicated $50,000
at present. The Dominion grant
on the same footing as last year
would be $282,979. Now there was no
question that the amounts were totally
inadequate for the service, but they
must remember that although the
amount directly received from Ottawa
was $282,979, yet there were other
moneys expended by the Dominion
Government for purely Territorial purposes. There was the expenditure of
$5,880 in the Lieutenant Governor's
office; incidental justice, $2,000; registrars of land titles, $15,000; $50,000
for insane persons; and $2,000
for schools in the unorganised
territories, making $74,800 in all.
These amounts were expended by
the Interior Department directly
through the Lieutenant Governor
and they would have to be undertaken by the local government when
the Territories were established on a
provincial basis. There were also the
amounts of $40,000 for criminal justice,
$2,500 for sheriffs. $9,800 for Regina
gaol, $6,000 for Prince Albert gaol; aid
to agricultural societies, $7,000; and to
creameries, $5,000. There was a much
larger sum devoted to creameries, but
most of it was simply an advance, and
recouped. The sum of $5,000, however, was a direct aid. Then there was
the proportion of immigration outlay in
respect of the Territories which it
would be difficult to estimate.
There was the sum of $23,000
for the construction and maintenance of court houses, and of
$353,750 for the maintenance of law and
order in the Territories which was now
undertaken through the North-West
Mounted Police. Although he did
not wish for a moment to say that we
ought to be charged with the Police
expenditure in this country, still we
would have to undertake a proportion
of the burden entailed for the maintenance of law and order the same as in
Manitoba and the other provinces, if
we were formed into a province. The
Government this year had asked for
$535,000 from Ottawa and they believed that sum was actually necessary to
provide for the needs of the country.
Now if it was the case that this sum
was needed, was it not very necessary
for them to look minutely into the
question and see where they would land
themselves if they were to enter into
confederation on the Manitoba basis?
The province of Manitoba was dealt
with in the following manner: They
received an allowance of $50,000 for the
purposes of government; $100,000 on
account of lands; and interest
on a capital account at the
rate of $32 per head on the actual population, or about three and a
quarter million dollars. If the Territories were similarly dealt with we
would be in this position. We should
have our subsidy based on a per capita
amount of 80 cents per head. He supposed that the Dominion would claim
that the Territories had a population of
100,000, but we would have, say, for the
purposes of argument, a population of
150,000. At 80 cents per head that would
give us $120,000. Add to that $50,000
for government,the same as Manitoba,
and we would then have $170,000. Then
we would be entitled to a capital account of three and a quarter millions,
which at five per cent would produce
$162,500–although it had to be remembered that the Dominion now held the
Territories charged with some $3,000000 on account of capital account
expenditures in the Territories:
The Province of Manitoba received
$100,000 a year in lieu of her
lands; but in the Territories we had a
little over four and a half times the
land of Manitoba–that was in the organised Territories—so that we should
be entitled on the same basis as Manitoba to over $400,000 a year in lieu of
our lands. This would give us in all
$732,500. This then was the position
we would be in if we were dealt with
on the same basis as Manitoba. We
should have a fixed subsidy of $732,500.
Was there any member of that
House who believed that if we require
a grant of $535,000 at the present time
for the services we are performing, and
if in addition to that we had to perform
the services now carried out by the
Dominion Government, that such a
bargain as this would be a good bargain for all time to come? He did not
think so, and he did not think any
member of the House thought that the
sum he had mentioned would be a sufficient sum for a fixed subsidy. The
question of the division of the Territories did not come into this calculation.
Once the bargain was made we would
get no advance except what came
through the per capita grant of 80 cents
a head on the increase of population
from 150,000 up to 400,000. Would any
man say this was a proper basis for us
to make a deal on? It appeared to him
more than likely that a difficulty would
be found in getting the Dominion to
grant the sum of $400,000 in lieu
of lands — not because we were
not, entitled to it, for in fact, we were
entitled to a great deal more. Now he
thought that if we went to the Dominion Parliament and were willing to
go into confederation on the same
basis as Manitoba, with a reasonable
amount of increase owing to the Territories having more land than Manitoba,
we would probably have enough for
our present needs. But we had to
look ahead; and he made this statement, that in five years from that
day, with the influx of population, and
the extra services that would be required through this extra population,
we would be in a position that we
would have to turn to our borrowing
powers in order to carry on the government of the country, He believed,
however–and his collegues believed,
that there was no necessity for the
Government to deal in that way, and
this Government had a proposition to
make in respect to the position in
which these Territories should be
placed. The leader of the House had
looked into this question, and, this
Government was prepared to lay down
what they believe would be the pro
per course to pursue. In passing, also
he would emphasize the point that his
hon. friend from Macleod had led the
country gently to a point where it could
consider and look for a coming change.
No doubt some people would say, that
that was a drift policy; it might be but
it had gradually and safely led the
country up to a point when it might
seriously commence to take those matters into consideration.
In the first place, continued
Mr. Ross,
the Government would lay this down
as a basis, or starting point, that they
would make the best possible bargain
with regard to population. They would
as large an amount as they could
for government. These two items
would likely be dealt with in any event
on one basis. Then it would be the duty
of this Government—or whoever might
be carrying on the government of the
Territories at that time—to carefully
enquire into the alleged expenditure on
capital account. It was not known here
what services were undertaken on account of that; but they could obtain
all the information at Ottawa.
At present, they did not know what was
They did not know what services were
undertaken, but it could be learned
at Ottawa, and it would be the duty of
the Government to inquire into that.
It would be their duty to demand on behalf of these Territories the whole of the
lands of the Territories—(hear, hear)
—that is to demand an account of the
whole of the lands of the Territories
including that portion which had gone
from Canada's grasp. It was known
that large grants had gone out in subsidies and so on, and of these an
account must be given. Something
must be given to the Territories in lieu
of those lands which had been alienated
by Dominion vote. The land belongs
to the people. It is the only natural
revenue producing asset they have; it
is the one asset that grows by the
growth of population; it is the only asset we can look to to maintain an
equilibrium between revenue and expenditure. If we have an absolutely
fixed subsidy the expenditure is bound
to outgrow the revenue.
The speaker continued: In Alberta,
Saskatchewan and East Assiniboia we
have something like 300,000 square
miles of lands, or 190 millions of acres
in these Territories. It is only fair to
assume that one half of these lands,
that is the odd numbered sections
throughout the country are lands which
may be classed as revenue producing
areas. There is the other half or the
even numbered sections, set apart for
homesteading. But the whole of that
portion of the lands was not available
or homesteading. Large areas
have been sold, and we know that
settlers have largely taken advantage
of the pre-emption clause; and I think
it is fair to say that one half of those
lands should also be classed as revenue producing. That still leaves 120
million acres to be dealt with.
There has been something like 35
millions of acres taken for subsidising railways not necessarily, in the
Territories but sometimes in the Province of Manitoba, and also for the
great national highway, the C.P.R.
Now it, is but fair for us to remember
that if that 35,000,000 acres taken from
the Territories to subsidise Dominion
undertakings, had been, needed for
subsidising undertakings in the
eastern provinces, the subsidy would
have had to be made in cash. If our
lands have been given instead of cash,
then I say credit should be given to
the new province for the lands which
have been so taken. Over 200 millions
of dollars have been given by the Dominion Government to subsidise railways
mostly in the eastern part of Canada and
why should the policy be changed in
in respect of the western portion of
the country? Let me quote the position in British Columbia to prove that
an account, should be taken of these
lands. In British Columbia the Dominion Government had to provide
certain lands for the completion of the
C.P.R. We find that by the terms of
union, they made an agreement with
British Columbia for twenty miles on
each side of the railway, and they
agreed to give the province $100,000 a
year for this twenty miles of rocks
along the line of the C.P.R. This
amounts to 13,000,000 acres which the
Dominion Government had to provide
and which they purchased from British
Columbia, and in respect of which they
agreed to give the province $100,000 a
year in perpetuity. Should it not
therefore follow that we in these Territories should have a credit for the
amount of lands which have been taken
from us? What would be the position
if we were given a capital account for
this land so taken from the Territories
for Dominion purposes? Instead of 35
million or 40 million acres of land we
should have a capital account of
$35,000,000 at the least calculation.
Surely these lands, the choice of this
country, taken by the C, P.R. and other
corporations—surely, it is a low estimate to say that they are worth $1
an acre and the expense of surveys in
that this is a fair recompense for us to
accept for these lands at all, but let us
calculate for the sake of argument on
a capital account of $35,000,000 for these
lands. To show where we could land
ourselves by a proper bargain, let us
say $33,000,000. On that amount we
should be entitled to something over a
million dollars a year. That would be
a capital account worth calling a capital account. Now, over and beyond
that, we claim, if our position is good,
and if these lands belong to these
Territorics and should belong to these
Territories when erected into a
province–we claim, I say, that
there is a further amount to be
dealt with of about S5 millions acres
outside of the homestead lands, I
think that 35 millions of acres would
be a fair recompense to the Dominion
of Canada for the expense of the survey and administration of these 85 million acres,
and that would leave us a
residue of 50 million acres. If this
province was started off on such a
basis as I have indicated, even with
a lesser subsidy than I have marked
out, we are entitled to a capital
account of 50,000,000 acres of land of
our own, which would lie increased
in value by every expenditure of public
money, every dollar expended on our
educational institutions, every dollar
expended in testing for water, every
dollar expended in road improvements, every dollar expended in building bridges—every
dollar expended
upon any public service would be
assisting to improve our own property:
and with the influx of population and
the consequent increase of the burdens
we would have to bear, to meet, these
would run concurrently as it were
and there would be a perpetual large
increase in the value of these lands
to meet the burdens added by the
growing requirements of the country.
I think this is the kind of proposition the people of this country
are looking for. We are not looking
so much for thepower of borrowing
money with the public credit. [?]
are willing to take those powers,
but I hope, the day is far distant
when we will have to resort to borrowing powers. I helieve we have in
this country suficient wealth that we
will not, if a right course is pursued,
have to resort to those borrowing
powers, Mr. Speaker, not, in any event,
so long as you and I are members of
this Legislative Assembly. (Applause.)
I believe, Sir, that it is from some such
point of view as this that we should
bring, this great question before the
attention of the people. This House
has no mandate, the Government has
no mandate from the people of this
country to make as yet any arrangements to change our present status;
but I think it is our duty now to
bestow some little attention upon the
position in which we are likely to find
ourselves. We are satisfied that
whether the Dominion Government
gives us an increased subsidy or not
we have come to the point where we
must, consider our position. It is
our duty as far as we can to educate
the people on this question; and
it is the duty of every man in this
House, it is the duty of every good
citizen in this country, to stand
shoulder to shoulder at this time to
endeavor to force upon the Dominion
of Canada this principle which we
believe to be true, that we have a right
to these lands. It is the duty of Grit
and Tory, or Tory and Grit, no matter
how you put it, whether he be a member of this legislature or not—it is the
duty of the Dominion Members of
Parliament representing this western
country, that we and they should all
stand shoulder to shoulder on this question—the most important that will
be dealt with during their term in
the Parliament of Canada. The question, as to the land regulations, or
whether we shall get a bridge at
Edmonton or a post office at Moosomin or some other point, are in comparison of very
little moment, to the
people of this country at large, but
the question as to what the financial
position of this country will finally be
is one of the greatest moment to the
whole of the people of this country.
I hope no question will arise at this
time as to whether we are to have one,
two or three provinces or whether any
part will be given to Manitoba. Let
us leave those questions altogether on
one side: let us endeavor to force upon
the Dominion Government the principle that when the bargain is made
it should be made upon the basis
of the whole of the lands of these
Territories belonging to the Territories,
and that a full account should be given
of them. We have been accused, and
especially the leader of this House
has been accused, of having adopted
a drift policy.
Mr. Ross—The hon. gentleman from
West Calgary says "hear, hear."
I have every reason to believe
that, the hon. gentleman from
West Calgary is a man of great
ability, but I would point out to
him that it must be entirely from
hearsay that he has been able to make
up his mind as to the policy which
has been pursued by my hon. friend
from Macleod, as he has not been with
us very long and has had a very short
experience in these Territories. If
the hon. leader of the House has
adopted a drift policy, then all I can
say is that he must have been watched
over by an All-wise Providence, because he drifted us through the stormy
times of 1892 when we were fighting
for the rights of responsible government, the hon.gentleman, Sir, brought
this country through those stormy
times, and drifted us not into the
harbor of despair, but into the harbor
of hope, and into that harbor these
Territories came safely and were firmly
anchored. There were other gentlemen
in this House–there are not many of
them here now, but there is one left,
(Dr. Brett)—who tried to drift us on
to the rocks at that time, and to throw
us back in our effort for responsible
government, but they were inot successful. But if that policy of drift,
has been the policy which has landed
us at this time, after it has been pursued
so many years, in the position that we
have a good and wise body of legislation on our statute books, that the
people of this country have not been
placed in a position in which they
might be burdened with taxation,—if, I
say, that policy of drift has brought
us to the position we now occupy,
where by wise legislation we are able
to show to the people of this country
and to the people of Eastern Canada.
that the government of this country is
in the hands of a man who is able to
put on the brakes if the brakes are necessary, who has been able to branch
out when branching out was necessary,
who understood his position, and who
has been able to take his place, each
time he has gone to Ottawa, with men
who are supposed to be superior to us
poor mortals in this part of the
country,--if we have been able to
do all this and to demonstrate to
the people of Eastern Canada that,
we have been able to organise a government on proper lines, and that we
we are ready and able, whenever it is
necessary, to step into confederation on
an equality with the older provinces—
I say, Sir, if that be the resulta policy of drift, then I think
the policy of drift a good one.
(Applause), I would conclude bysaying that I hope and trust the members of this House—and
I know they
will—will realise that this is one of the
most critical periods in the history of
the Territories—one of those times
when it is necessary to have at the
helm the steady hand and the cool
head. Sir, we have that cool head, we
believe at all events that we have one
who is able to cope with the difficulties
which are likely to arise, and when the
necessity arises I hope the members of
this House will stand shoulder to
shoulder on this great question. I have
to thank you, Sir, and through you the
House, for the very patient hearing
which has been given me. I must
apologise to the House—not for the
matter, because the matter of what I
have said is perhaps as good as I could
possibly make it—but I must apologise
for the manner and the tone of voice in
which it has been given. I have been,
as you are aware, under the
weather for some little time and
it is only with great effort that I
am able to speak at all to-day.I
hope and trust, Mr. Speaker, that the
members of the House will enter into
this debate fully realising the responsibility that, rests upon them. Mr.
Speaker, I beg to move that you do
now leave the chair.
Mr. Ross, who had spoken for about
two hours and a half, then resumed
his seat amid loud and general applause.
It being 5:30 o'clock the Speaker left
the chair.
EVENING SESSION.
The debate was resumed at 8 o'clock.
DR. BRETT commenced by complimenting Mr. Ross very handsomely
on his first budget speech, and also expressed the pleasure with which for
several years he had listened to
the budget speeches delivered by the
leader of the House. With regard to
the new Territorial Treasurer he must
say that the duty of discharging the
difficult task of presenting the budget,
speech did not suffer at his hands. All
the members he was sure would agree
the facts had been placed before
the House in a very clear and able
manner; and he felt very much like
congratulating the hon. member on
the large amount of information he
had given
[?]
his own department, but with reference to the departments generally.
(Hear, hear.) But although the speech
had doubtless pleased them all in the
delivery, whether they would all agree
with the sentiments contained in the
latter part of that speech was quite
another thing. Howeverit was delivered in a most creditable manner
and he wished to sincelely congratulate the hon. gentleman on his effort.
It was also very gratifying to the
6
THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 4, 1899.
BUDGET STATEMENT
BY MR. ROSS.
Continued from Page 3.
newer members of the House to have
that little historical sketch of the
earlier circumstances of the Territories.
There was no member in that House
better qualified to give such a resume
than the Territorial Treasurer because
he had been connected with the legislature of the country since its earliest
days. If was not always an easy task
to deliver a budget speech, neither was
it always easy to criticise it to one's liking. And it was more difficult on that
occasion than usual to intelligently
criticise the different items in the
speech, and for two reasons. One was
that they did not have as long a time
for the perusal of the public accounts
as they should have had. He contended that those accounts should be laid
upon the table at least a week, or ten
days before the budget is brought
down. Then again, the accounts covered a long period—viz., sixteen
months, which was a longer period
than that usually covered in any other
Assembly. Again, the Estimates practically were only placed on the table
one day ago. Certainly they were received by members late on Saturday
night, but Sunday was not the time to
study the Estimates.
Dr. Brett was glad the Premier concurred in that view, for he (Dr. Brett)
was sure there were a great many hon.
gentlemen who could not be prevailed
upon to study Estimates on Sunday.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) The result
was that they were tied down to just
one day before being called upon to
concur in the Estimates or to express
an opinion on the different items. But
there was also one reason which made
it easier than usual to criticise the
budget proposal this year, and that
was that there were so few items. At
no time since Estimates had been laid
on the table had there been so few
items as on this occasion. But while
that made it easier in one way, it made
it more difficult in another way to
make up their minds whether these
Estimates were such as they could
easily concur in or whether they were
such as they should object to or take a
longer time for discussion and explanation before they concurred in them.
It was true that additional information had been promised them by the
hon. the Territorial Treasurer when
they went into Supply, but that was
not the time given to other legislatures
and the members of other parliaments
to criticise and express their opinions
with reference to the several items of
the Estimates. He was thinking today when the Territorial Treasurer
was relating the early history of the
country that history was repeating itself. There was a tiime in the early days
when the estimates were not brought
down for the consideration of the
gentlemen who composed the old
North-West Council. Some items
were voted but the great bulk of the
money was kept at the disposal of the
Lieutenant Governor, and was disposed of by him as he pleased. He
(Dr. Brett) was not making any charge
that the Lieut.-Governor did not expend that money properly, but the
fact remained that he had the control
over the greater part of the money
that was expended in those days,
Now they had been told that great
progress had been made in the Territories; there had been a general increase in the
population, and
demands had grown generally for
greater attention to the public service, necessitating a larger employment of officials.
He was sorry to say
that the general progress was not manifested in the estimates for they found
that out of the sum of $136,000 for
public works about one-third of that
amount was kept to be spent just as
the Commissioner of Public Works
chose to do. It was not specified
whether the bulk of the money was
to be expended in this district or in
that district—on the completion of this
bridge or of that bridge—it was entirely in the hands of the Government
and the Commissioner of Public Works
to expend as they chose. It was true
that they were promised more details
when they went into Supply but it was
important to remember that the House
was being asked by the Government to
concur in those estimates before they
went into Supply. When once they
did that they knew very well that they
could not increase the amount for any
particular work, although they could
lessen the amounts; and he said the
Government were presuming a great
deal on the confidence of the
members of the Assembly to ask
them to allow them to go into Supply
when two-thirds of the amount voted
for roads and bridges and public improvements were to be left at the
entire disposal of the Government.
They were presuming on the confidence of the House. Probably they
enjoyed that confidence, and he (Dr.Â
Brett), hoped they would continue to
enjoy it if they deserved it, but the
course pursued with regard to these
Estimates was not the way to secure or
deserve the confidence of the Assembly
or of any other body of gentlemen
coming together for the transaction of
public business. There was another
feature, and probably a worse feature.
He did not fear that advantage would
be taken of it in that House because
he was quite certain, that hon. gentlemen in that House did not come under
the class who would be susceptible to
it; but it was a fact that the holding
back of a large sum of money like this
gave the opportunity, if (desired, of
attempting to exercise an influence
over members of the Assembly. He
did not say that it would. On the
other hand he said the members of the
House were of a class who would not
be influenced in that way. (Hear,
hear.) But it was a pernicious system
and a pernicious practice. If there
was a good precedent for it; if other
governments brought down their
estimates for roads and bridges and
asked to have them so voted as to be
at the disposal of the government then
he (Dr. Brett) would admit that there
might be some justification; but if
they could not point to other legislatures, or to the Dominion House as
doing this, then he should contend that
the Government in this instance were
making a departure which was bad, one
that will grow and grow and grow,
until presently they may come and ask
the House to vote the whole amount
required for the Territories in one vote
and let them spend it as they liked.
The practice was that even the smallest
amounts were put down that were
intended to be spent in any particular
direction: and if the provinces did
that, if the Dominion Government
could do that, what was there
to justify, this Government, and
these gentlemen, who were conducting the business of the Territories in asking the
House to put themselves in a less business-like position
than the legislatures of the provinces
or the Dominion Parliament?
The Territorial Treasurer did not put
his foot very deep into the matter and
touched very lightly on it, but still he
evidently realised that it was necessary
to say something apologetic for the
manner of bringing down, the Estimates. He realised that it was his
duty to explain to the House , that it
was not exactly the regular way of do
ing things; and he gave as his justification that a great many of the members were
young members who had not
had the opportunity of finding out
what was really necessary for their districts. Now in answer to this he wished to
point out that the policy last year
in regard to public works was the employment of district engineers. It was
the business of those engineers to go
through the country and find out the
absolute requirements of the country.
Hon. members who were in the last
Assembly would hear him out that expendatures were made during the time
that system was in vogue on
the representations of these district engineers. If those engineers did not visit
every locality still they had to cover pretty
well every portion of the various districts. That was their business. They
were charged with the responsibility
of reporting on the necessary works
required to be done in the districts in
which they were employed. He presumed those district engineers carried
out their instructions. If they did not
then the Government was in fault for
retaining men who did not carry out
their instructions, and if the Government did not instruct them to find out
and look over, and report things to
them with regard to the necessary
works to be done, then he said the Government were neglecting a very important part
of their duty. Well, he
would assume that the resident engineers understood their business, and
made certain reports. If they did, then
the Government should be in a position
to know, if not absolutely what was
required in regard to every road or
bridge in the country, yet they should
be in a position to give full information
as to a large number of important
works in the country requiring attention this year. After some further remarks on
this line Dr. Brett turned
to the question of the increase
in the departmental staff.
He quite agreed with the remarks
made by the Territorial Treasurer that
afternoon when he stated that he
would rather be censured for having
expended money on his staff to get the
work done than to be censured
for neglecting to get the work done
properly; and he was not going to
carp because there was an; extra employee here and there about the buildings. He was
not going to complain
of that. Whatever assistance was
really required, by all means let it be
obtained. He had alwaays sustained
the Executive where they had employed the best talent they could find. He
had always supported them, and he
hoped he always would, in employing
the very best men they could find, even
if they had to pay very large salaries
to get them. The principle he believed
in was to employ the best men they
could get and a sufficient number of
them, and then to expect and demand
good and efficient service at their
hands. He had no fault, then, to find
in reference to the staff, although it
might be large. But what he might
point out was that the item of civil
government, as compared with the
total sum expended, amounted to ten
per cent. of the whole. In saying this
he was not including the
salary of the Superintendent of Education or of the inspectors. It cost something
like 10 or 11 per cent. without
that, and as compared with the other provinces he could not help saying that
this was a very large amount. In Ontario it was a little over 4 per cent. of
the total expenditure for civil government. Now he was not going to urge
that they should do things as cheaply
as in Ontario. He was only pointing
out the difference, and it would occur
no doubt to other members as it did to
him that it was a very large amount
for civil government as against 4 per
cent. in Ontario. However, with regard to the general question of civil
government, until he was able to point
out that there was an employee not
earning his pay, or for whom there
was not sufficient work to keep him
employed, he was not going to
complain: and he was not able to
point to any employee who was in that
position. If he was able to point to
such an employe then he would ask
for a reduction in respect of that
employe but he was not going to ask
for any reduction of that kind. But
he would ask this question? With
this large and expensive staff had the
Government done everything they could
reasonably be expected to do? Had
they fulfilled their duties and their
offices promptly and efficiently? Of
course complaints were heard all over
as to the manner in which they did
their work. He certainly had heard a
great many complaints as to the tardiness with which business was done.
Letters were not answered quickly and
things that should be done promptly
were not done promptly. He must
say that he had no complaint to make
himself, but he knew that a great many
complaints had been made by the
public generally with regard to the
tardiness with which business was
done. It was not only the business of
the Government to answer letters, and
issue brands when applied for, and
attend to communications in reference
to public works, and that sort of thing.
That was not their only business.
Reference had been made that day to
the salary of the members of the
Government. He said they were not
getting a cent too much. Two thousand five hundred dollars was not a
cent too much. He would go a little
farther and say probably it was not
enough if they had as much work to
do as they said they had. Well then,
the business of the Government was
not only to see that letters were
answered and this or that business
conducted quickly and efficiently.
These Territories were large and there
was room for a large number of people.
He might add in passing that he did
not complain of the amount for traveling expenses. He would not object if
it were more, if ministers would get
around among the people, and if he
found it was resulting in some benefit
to the people. Part of their business
was to get acquainted with the
wants and necessities of the people and
if they were travelling about more and
increasing this item for travelling expenses he would have no fault to find.
But besides all this it was the duty of
the Government to look after legislation
and see that the necessary legislation
was prepared. They heard the faultfinding of those who had to work under
the conditions that exist; they heard
of the drawbacks of the conditions
under which people had to exist, and
it lay with them to inaugurate anything which was going to be to the
advantage of the Territories, which
was going to contribute to the furthering of the prosperity of the Territories,
to the enhancing of its wealth and the
increasing of its population. Had the
Government done all that could reasonably be expected of them in that regard? He said
that as far as attending
to the office business in his own case
he had nothing to complain of, but at
the same time complaints were
numerous. But with regard to legislation he said that the best evidence
that the Government had not paid so
strict attention to the legislation of
the country as they should, was to be
found in the fact—the very striking
fact—that after spending two years
in the consolidation of the Ordinances,
yet in the very first session after consolidating it was found necessary to
amend quite a number of the Ordinances, the consolidation of which was
only completed in 1898. They readily understood that necessity was alwayas
arising for new legislation, but he
felt that altogether the Government
had not shown that attention and
given that care to legislation that they
should have done.
He had taken the opportunity on
different occasions not so much perhaps to criticise the policy of the
Government as to enquire what that
policy was, because really he had to
ask for the information as the policy
was something which was not very
apparent to him. Well, on several
occasions on which he had asked
for that informal information, he
was told that their policy would be
found in their legislation—that it was
to be found embalmed in their Ordinances. Now, he quite agreed that
some of the policy of the Government
would be found in the Ordinances.
They would take, for instance, for a
moment a department that had been
referred to at some length by the Territorial Treasurer, and that was the
newly-created Department of Agriculture. The hon. gentleman had said
that was a very important department
and one that should have existed long
before this, and that hitherto the business in connection with agriculture
had been so great that it could not be
attended to properly. All that, he (Dr.
Brett) agreed with. He agreed that
the department was one of the most
important that could exist, particularly in this country, as well as elsewhere.
Subjects came under the administration of that Department which were
of the utmost importance and in no
country were they more important
than in this country. But if they took
the legislation, as far as the legislation
was concerned there was nothing before
the House to justify the existence of that
Department in the Territories up to
the present time. He did not wish to
be misunderstood in what he said. It
was not because the department was
not important or that it should not
have been created and should not exist; this was not the ground he was
taking; it was because of the work
that was done and which the Assembly
did not know anything about. If the
department had all the importance
ascribed to it, and was doing all the
work credited to it, was it not important also that the Assembly should
know what that department had been
doing? On Friday night a report was
laid on the table, but he had had no
opportunity of studying it, and speaking honestly he was not privileged to
criticise the head or the deputy head
of that department, for he did not
know what they had been doing.
He did not know whether the money
they had dealt with had been spent
wisely or unwisely. He contended that
one of the first duties of any department, when it came and asked for a large
sum of money to support that department, was that it should lay information
on the table of the House in such a way
that every member would have an opportunity of finding out exactly
what had been done in that department. The department in question presided over a
great number of important
matters in relation to these Terrotiroes,
and among them was that of vital statistics and statistics of other kinds. He
rememberd that two years ago the
hon. the Commissioner in introducing the Statute Labor Ordinance dwelt
on the necessity of procuring agricultural returns, and pointed out that
these districts would form an excellent
medium for this object. The hon. gentleman said that the question of getting
statistics of the cattle, grain and produce of the Territories was a matter of
great importance to the Territories.
Mr. Brett, continuing, said that was
two years ago, and he was not aware
that any information on this important
matter had been given to the public.
He knew there were many people who
were desirous of getting that information as to the country as a whole;
they wished to get some statistics to
show what the country was doing;
they wished for statistics of some value
that could be sent broadcast to the
world, but they were unable to obtain those statistics. He repeated that
the statement referred to had been
made two years aago. He did not know
how long it took to get the information.
He knew it could not be done in a few
weeks, but surely it could be done in a
year, and certainly it ought to be
done in less than two years. Had the
House then any evidence that the government had carried out that portion
of its duty in the manner they should
do in reference to these important returns of cereals and cattle?
Then there were the vital statistics.
He knew that many people might consider the Vital Statistics Ordinance
an unimportant one to enforce, but he
considered it a very important Ordinance. It was considered important
in any other province, and although in
the opinion of some, they were beginning the collection of these statistics
very soon in their history yet he did
not think himself that they were commencing a day too soon. They could
not commence too soon, because if we
were able to demonstrate from such
returns that in this country we are
freer from disease than in other countries, it would be a great incentive to
immigration. It could not, he though,
fail to be a great stimulus to immigration if he could be shown that we had
a comparative immunity from those
diseases; and therefore he regarded
this matter as very important. The
sooner the Government realised the
importance of their agricultural and
vital statistics, the sooner would they
give it adequate attention, and attend
to their business a little more carefully than they had done in the past.
There were other important Ordinances dealt with by this department.
There was the sum of $4,000 for the
destruction of noxious weeds. A considerable sum was expended last year,
and he thought they should have had
some report of this expenditure and its
results. As it was the House did not
know how it was expended, what plan
was adopted and whether it was being
successfully worked. Outside of the
information they might have in individual cases the House was not in possession of
any facts or information
which would enable them to suggest
any changes or made any amendments.
They could not intelligently vote this
$4,000 without knowing what good
had been effected by the expenditure
in the past. There was another matter
which came under this department
and that was agricultural societies.
That matter had already been the
subject of legislation this year and he
was very glad to have an opporunity
of congratulating the gentlement who
brought in that new legislation, because he thought it was the right
direction, but still he thought it was
not the best that could have been
brought in in the best interests of the
country. He might be accused of
having ideas away up in the heavens.
He had been accused of having
ethereal ideas, but somehow those
ideas had always subsequently materialised into the policy of the Government. It took
in some instances on
year, in some two years and in some
three years for them to bring each
particular idea he had advocated into
practice, but it was only a matter of
time. He had expressed an opinion in
the past that a great deal of money
had been spent on agricultural societies with very little benefit to the
Territories. One object of these societies was to show to people who wish
to come in here that this country is
capable of raising good cereals and
cattle and vegetables, and that this
country generally is a desirable one to
live in. How much good did these
small shows do on this line? No doubt
they did a certain amount of good in
creating local rivalry, but he had a
suggestion to make on a larger scale
than that. Perhaps his ideas would not
meet the approval of all, but it was
not merely to get the approval of the
majority that he was talking. He was
talking about the policy which he
believed would be for the best interests
of the country irrespective of majorities in that House; and he said
this: Let the Government instead of
distributing this sum over a number of
small societies, instead of doing that, let
them take this eleven thousand dollars
and spend it on one good fair; let it be
in Regina, or Calgary, or Edmonton, or
Moosomin, or Prince Albert. Let the
Territories give a substantial sum that
would warrant a locality in having the
show. They would all remember the
Territorial show held in Regina. He
would admit that that show, perhaps
was not as well managed as it might
have been, but it attracted a great
number of people, and the number of
entries was larger than at Winnipeg or
Toronto, and he did not suppose any
one sould yet tell how far-reaching
the effects of that exhibition would be.
They knew that a good number of people who came in here to witness that
show afterwards became permanent
settlers. Probably every hon. gentleman could point to some settlers of that
kind in his own district. Let the Government if necessary curtail expenditure in regard
to the small shows, and
give a sum to have a good fair. Let it
be a travelling show if they liked, at
some point in Eastern Assiniboia one
year, in Alberta the next, at Calgary
or Edmonton, as the case might be,
next, in West Assiniboia the next, and
after a while they might be sure Prince
Albert would claim the distinction of
having it there. This plan would do
more good than the small shows and
he thought this was a pretty general
opinion throughout the country. He
knew he had talked with men who took
a great interest in agricultural matters,
and who were well qualified to speak;
and while, these gentlemen thought
that some benefit was derived locally
from the small shows, they were of
opinion that the benefit, could not be
compared at all with what would be
derived from the holding of large fairs.
He hoped the Government would consider the matter and next year adopt
and press forward something of the
kind suggested.
Dr. Brett next referred to immigration. He had, he said, mentioned the
subject on previous occasions and he
had been told by the leader of the
House that it was not constitutional
for that House to deal with immigration matters. Now, he was not going
to quarrel with the leader of the House
as to whether it was constitutional to
go into a general system of immigration or not, but he certainly thought
they were perfectly constitutional and
within their rights in discussing the
matter. Some might say they had not
the money to deal with it. Probably
not; but there were different, directions in which he thought the Government should
have moved and should he
actually moving in connection with
immigration, We were having a
number of Doukhobors and Galicians
brought into the Territories. It might
be said, "What have we to do with
that? The Dominion Government are
doing that." True they are, but on
whom is the responsibility thrown
directly, these people get here? The
responsibility was thrown on the
local government of educating them
and providing for any distress among
them. It might be that in this latter
case the Dominion Government would
re-imburse them, but the first duty of
seeing that these people did not suffer
would fall on the Territories. There
was no doubt the Dominion Government was imposing a great responsibility on the TerritoriesÂ
in respect of
these people, and he thought the Territories should have sould say in the
matter. He thought people living in
the Territories should know as well
as the people at Ottawa how and
where those people should be settled
—whether they should be settled in
colonies, or should be distributed
among other settlers who would
benefit by having a plentiful supply
of cheap labor. If the Government did
not think it was in their power or
within their discretion to take action
in the matter, then the House should
take upon themselves the duty of
pointing out that the Territories
should be consulted with reference to the nature and class
of immigrants to be sent in; the
manner in which they are to be
located in colonies and be dependent
on themselves, or located among the
older settlers of the country. The
question in his opinion was important one. It might be productive of a
large amount of evil and a large
amount of expensve and it should be
one of the first duties of the Government to provide against disastrous
consequences in the future.
Another thing of importance was
the compiling of a book containing
information about the Territories and
which would be sent out under the
authority of the Government. It was
true they had not a large amount of
money, but he thought sufficient could
be found for that purpose. If they
picked up the so-called immigration
literature issued by the Dominion
Government what did they find? They
found that the Territories were given
a very small space. In one that was
circulated a little while ago the Territories occupied about four inches in a
300 or 400 page book. He said therefore that it behooved the Government
to see that a suitable pamphlet, descriptive of this country and its resources, should
be printed and placed
in the hands of the people. The C.P.R.
was anxious to distribute literature,
but it was not the business of the
C.P.R. as much as it was of the
Government of the Territories to see
that proper literature was compiled
and distributed, descriptive of the
products and resources of the Territories.
Dr. Brett went on to read a letter
dated March 28th, written by the
Commissioner of Public Works
to the Regina Board of Trade. It
seemed, he said, that the Board was
desirous of demonstrating to the world
that it was possible to obtain a water
supply in the lands south of Regina.
So important was it considered that
the Council of Regina were willing to
contribute a certain amount; the
C.P.R. having lands for sale contributted an amount of $500; the
Hudson Bay Co., $500; and the Board
of Trade thought it was not an improper thing, or an unreasonable thing, to
ask the North-West Government what
assistance they would give to demonstrate that there was water in these
lands, this being the only obstacle to
settlement south of Regina. The
Board asked, therefore, that the Government would assist them by placing
an auger at their disposal to make the
necessary tests. Mr. Ross's letter
(which has already been published) as
read by Dr. Brett was, in brief, that
the Government had no machine available, and that in any case the department could
not see its way clear to boring for water in unsettled townships
while its resources were already being
taxed to the utmost to provide water
in districts already settled. The present
policy of the government did not include what might be termed exploring
for water in unsettled districts to aid
in the settlement of these districts.
Dr. Brett said no doubt that was a
very good policy as far as it went, but
were the Government going to tie
themselves down to one little narrow
groove which was not capable of diversion or expansion or of being widened?
Was it not possible to discover other
avenues to which they could devote
the public money with advantage? If
thy were so narrow; if that was their
policy; if they were so contracted that
they could not go outside the policy
already laid down; if they were not
broad enough to assist in in the development of valuable lands, and had not
energy enough to develop by their
energies and their acts the great resources of this country as rapidly and
as effectively as ought to be done,
then he said that although he might
enjoy the reputation of having wild
ideas—(Mr. Haultain: Hear, hear)—of
having impracticable ideas, yet he
would rather have that reputation
than the reputation the Government
would make for itself—he would rather
enjoy that reputation and that notoriety—and especially as he knew
that judging by the past he would soon
have the sanctification of finding that his
ideas were being gradually assimilated
by the Government and embodied in
their policy.
But if he had hitherto enjoyed such a
reputation he felt that he might now
step down and give place to another
hon. gentleman to take his place after
what they had listened to that afternoon on another subject. He did not
think any hon. gentleman present ever
listened to a responsible Minister
speaking to a responsible Assembly on
a subject of so much importance to this
country as a change in the constitution
of the country;—no hon. gentleman
could fail to be struck with
the idea;-well, really the English language failed to find him words to describe exactly
what he wanted to say;
but anyway if ever any hon. gentleman
present listened to such flights of imagination as they had listened to from the
hon. Territorial Treasurer that afternoon, he was quite sure those flights of
imagination did not come from him (the
speaker.)
Dr. Brett went on to say that he had
already intimated that year after year
he had had to ask what was the policy
of the Government. For three or four
years they had been talking of provincial autonomy. He was quite sure that
provincial autonomy was one of those
subjects that the Government did not
like him to mention. They said that
so many men raised their hands in holy
horror when it was mentioned that it
was better not to refer to it. But he
always called a spade a spade, and when
he had spoken of provincial autonomy
on previous occasions he had been told
that he was speaking wildly; that he
was talking in the air; that he was
speaking of things even their children
would not realise till they were grey;
and yet in two years they found it laid
down in that House that the time had
come when they must consider provincial autonomy. Dr. Brett quoted from
THE LEADER report of the session of
1897 to show what Mr. Haultain's views
then were on the subject. He went on
to say that the policy of the
Government was to hang on to the Yukon and
not to let any portion of the Territories, whether in the east, west, north or
south be taken from us; and that, if
there was not an increase of subsidy
the next step would have to be provincial autonomy. That was in 1897. Well
there had been no increase in the subsidy. The estimates before then were
based on exactly the same amount.
Now, when was provincial autonomy
going to come? When was the Government going to take action? Were
the Government going to come there
year after year making nice-sounding
speeches to tickle the ears of the members and of the public, to buoy their
hopes up, and lead them to believe that
they were going to do something great?
Well then the definite policy in 1898 of
the Government was provincial autonomy if an increased subsidy could not be
procured. But in the elections in the
fall what did they find? The proper
course of the Government in those
elections was to have enunciated and
enforced that the policy so far as they
could. In the western portion of the
country where that policy was supposed
to suit the people it was their battle
cry. They spoke that way at Edmonton and at Calgary. What they said
at Moosomin and the eastern parts he
could not say positively for he was not
there to hear them, but he had reason
to believe that in that portion of the
country the people did not want autonomy because they thought it meant
taxation. He did not know how far
the Government went in the east to
try and educate the people there up to
their policy—how far they went in
order to induce the people to vote for
the men of their choice—but if they did
not use every means in their power on
that line them they were not acting
fairly towards the people of this country. To-day they found that there was
another policy. That policy was provincial autonomy, it was true, but under very different
circumstances. They
were to first get as much as they could
on capital account, and get the population estimated as high as possible. He
thought the estimate of 150,000 well
within the mark. Certainly before any
final arrangement was made the population would be well over the mark
at that estimate. The speaker went on
to recapitulate the various points in
Mr. Ross's outline of the claims to be
made; and referring to the suggested
revenue from the public lands of a million dollars a year, he said that when
the Territorial Treasurer made that
statement he thought to himself that
this was splendid, and if the Government were the men who could do this
they were just the Government the
country wanted. The hon. gentlemen
thought that if we could get a million
dollars a year we should not want to
borrow any money. There was no
doubt that if we could get a million
dollars a year in lieu of our public
lands we should be in a nice position.
We should be getting more
than any other Province in the
Dominion if this were fulfilled; but he
would ask hon. member did they take
the proposition seriously? Coming
from a responsible minister and addressed to them as members of that
Assembly, did they take it seriously
that they were to sit there and wait
till the Government could make such
an arrangement as that before they
could change their political complexion?
Did they not take it in the light of mere
bombast to attract the attention of
those who did not favor the idea of
taxation and borrowing money? If
the youngest men in that House had
to wait for such an arragment as
that to be made with the Dominion
Government, did not venture even
to think how old that man would be
before the arrangement was made.
Dr. Brett—Oh, you will be dead sure.
(Laughter.) Continuing the speaker
said that if the Government were
honest to-day—because they had come
to the jumping off point in respect of [...]
1
THE LEADER.
REGINA, N.W.T., THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1899.
DISCUSSION OF THE ESTIMATES.
The Conclsion of the One-Sided Debate on the Territorial Budget — Speeches by
Messrs. Brown, Patrick and Meyers.
DEBATE AND DIVISION ON THIRD READING OF VILLAGES BILL
The Government Sustained by a Vote of Nineteen to Eleven in a Full House — Continuation
of "The
Leader's" Consecutive Report of Legislative Proceedings.
DEBATE CONCLUDED.
The Budget Unanimously Adopted
by the Assembly.
THE OPPOSITION SUCCUMBS,
Conclusion of Mr. Brown's Half Hour's
Fun with the Member for Banff—
The Government's Successful Administration Commended — Mr.
Meyer's Endorses the Policy — Dr.
Patrick's Views on the Political
Position of the Territories.
THE LEADER last week contained a
a portion of the report of the Budget
Debate in the Assembly on April 25th–
the speeches of the Territorial Treasurer (Mr. Ross) and the leader of the
Opposition (Dr. Brett) and part of the
speech of the member for North Regina (Mr. Brown) who followed and replied to Dr.
Brett. This week we publish the conclusion of Mr. Brown's
speech and of the debate, and a continuation of our consecutive report of
the sessional proceedings.
MR. BROWN contended that, the
Government had managed the business of the country wisely and well,
profiting by and avoiding the mistakes
of other provinces. He contended
that if the Government now relinquished office and another government took
the reins, not in any particular would
the new government find itself hampered by mistakes of the old. He reerred to the
able manner in which
new and peculiar conditions had been
coped with. He drew a parallel between the Territories and Manitoba in
its earlier stage. Manitoba adopted
its system from the older provinces;
but, government of the Territories
said "No, a complex and expensive
system, such as exists in Manitoba and
the older provinces will not suit us,"
and so they commenced with a system
dealing only with the actual needs of
the country at that time. Those needs
had grown and the system had been
expanded to meet them. The result
was that when they became a province
instead of the provincial government
taking over a great mass of chaos they
would take over a country with institutions sufficiently developed to carry
on the business of the country to advantage.
Speaking of the remarks of the Territorial Treasurer as to the public lands
Dr. Brett had characterised them as
mere bombast. He (Mr. Brown)
thought the members of that House
were just as able to say what bombast
was as the hon. member for Banff was.
He contended that the proposition laid
down by the Territorial Treasurer was
reasonable and a just proposition.
Every other province had been dealt
with on the principle that the lands
were their own. If the Territories
were justly treated they would get the
benefit of those lands which should belong to them by right, but which had
been disposed of or did not now belong to them owing to the peculiar
position in which they were placed at
the beginning. The Province of Manitoba was once in the same position.
The Dominion Government offered
Manitoba, a consideration for their
lands, but when they did so they did
not say to Manitoba, "You have no
right to these lands." No; they admitted
that the lands belonged to Manitoba:
and what they did say was "We will
give you so much, not in part compensation but in lieu of those lands and as
an equivalent for them." There, had
been a great dispute with Manitoba as
to what the lands were worth. The
Dominion Government made a sharp
bargain with Manitoba at that time,
and there could be no man conversant
with the facts but who believed that
some day the Dominion would have to
make Manitoba some further allowance in respect of those lands. The
Territories should note and benefit by
the experience of Manitoba. Dr. Brett
seemed to think that the lands, of the
Territories were not worth the value
put upon them by the Territorial Treasurer. Well, if they were not worth a
dollar an acre they were coming very
near to not being worth anything at
all. But if the Dominion Government
was not prepared, to settle, in the
way suggested let them hand the lands
over to the Territories and, thus prevent any dispute that, might arise.
And with regard to the price of the
lands let them remember that although
35 million acres had been alienated
they had been alienated at a price.
Let that be the price if it came to
that, or if they wanted to be magnanimous let them cut it in two. On
the other hand, there were charges
against the Territories which would
live to be deducted, and he was sure
every hon. gentleman in that, House
was willing to come to a settlement
based on the exact rights of the Territories no matter what those rights may
be; and it was not for that House or
any member of that House to assume
beforehand that when they had certain
rights the Dominion Government
would refuse to give them those rights.
The Dominion Government had never
been approached on the question; and
until the Dominion Government refused to give to the Territories the
rights they could demand, they had no
right to say that the Government at
Ottawa would so refuse,
Then Dr. Brett had a plan for meet
ing the elevator monopoly. He would
have a great system of Government
elevators. He (Mr. Brown) thought if
they could do away with the elevator
retrictions the matter would right, itself. He did not believe in the Government going
into any works which
the people could provide for themselves. Dr. Brett had stated further that the Dominion
Government
borrowed money to carry on the government. Now the Dominion Government had no right,
nor had any other
Government any right to borrow one
dollar, except to be expended on capital account. Dr. Brett spoke as if all
a government had to do if it wanted
money for any purpose whatever, was
to borrow it, but he (Mr. Brown) asserted that this Government had no
right, nor had any other Government
any right to borrow money unless they
could show an asset equal to the
amount borrowed.
What was the position of the Territorial legislature to-day? For the
last twenty-two years they had been
growing—growing from a body in
which, the people had not one single
elected representative to one in
which the people had some reresentation, and from that to one
in which the people only were reresented, until they were now a Legisative Assembly
with extended powers,
with only one more step to be taken,
and, that was the assumption ofÂ
final, measure of responsible government in the form of provincial establishment.
He thought hon. gentlemen
would agree with him that the country
had not grown faster than its institutions; the country had not grown
faster than our powers to govern had
increased; and hon. gentlemen would
also agree with him that the earlier
stages of development had been passed
through with less taxation and less
burdens than had been the case with
any province of the Dominion.
It had been stated that one of the
great advantages to this country from
provincial autonomy would be the power to borrow money to build railroads.
He would point out that we have
2,000 miles of railroads to 100,000
people. No province in Canada could
show a greater mileage of railways in
proportion to population than this.
Now, it was not only a question of
building railways. Railways when
they were built had to be kept up;
they could not live on the wind. If
there were more railways than were
needed, then those railroads had to
combine and force the rates up to a
point at which they could live. The
result therefore of having railways
that were not actually needed would
be that the people would have
to pay increased railway rates.
He was not at all sure that
they had not enough railways for
their present needs. If a question of
rates were brought forward there was
no court of law that would give any
other decision than that a railway
should have a reasonable income, and
unless railways could obtain a reasonable income from the natural and legitimate business
of the country they
would obtain it by increased rates
which the people would have to pay.
What was wanted was to either own
the railways or have control over them;
and he did not think any North-West
Government should give one single
dollar to bonus a railway. If the
Northern Pacific could come in with
paltry bonus of $1,750 a mile and make
a success of it, why give $10,000 a mile?
They had better keep their money, in
their pockets than have to pay higher
rates and give a bonus too. It was not
difficult to build railroads in the west
it was not a mountainous country,
railways were easy to construct.
There was therefore not the need to
bonus railroads which might exist in
dsitricts where roads were more difficult and expensive to construct.
The speaker next referred to the public lands which were exempt from taxation. Before
they borrowed money
or undertook any burden of debt he
thought their first duty was to find out
what their assets were for the purposes
of taxation and what portion of the
country was going to hear the burden
of that, debt. C.P.R. lands and other
lands were at present in such a position
that they could not be taxed. They
needed to know whether one-fifth of
the land was to bear the burden of the
whole. When they were asked on the
one hand to exercise borrowing powers
and increase the burden of taxation, he
said on the other hand that their proper course was not to tie their own
hands but strive for that to which they
had a right, and to strive to settle for
all time whether all or only a portion
of the land was to be available for the
purposes of taxation. When that all
important question was settled then
they might be able to consider the
question of borrowing money. Lenders
of money were not fools, and if we
went into the money markets of , the
world those money lenders would look
at our circumstances very closely. If
we had to borrow money with a large
incubus of untaxable land we could
only borrow it at a rate that would be
ruinous to the Territories.
As to the question of the division of
the Territories he thought that was a
matter to be settled when we received provincial government. For his
own part he hoped the result would be
one province. He should like to see a
province—the greatest province in
Canada which was the premier colony
of the British Empire. He did not
want to have two or three or four
weakling province but one strong province whose voice, if not dominant in
the councils of Canada, could at least
at all time be heard with effect. But
rather than any portion should be a
part of that province against its will.
rather than such portion should
be prevented from running into
debt, and should be accusing
us of keeping them back
Â
and retarding their progress—rather,
he said, than occupy that position he
would be willing to let that portion heÂ
cut off so that they might enjoy the
doubtful privileges which they wished
to enjoy; but at the same time he
should deeply regret to see the power
of the new province to assert itself
eventually as the premier province of
the Dominion in any way impaired. In
conclusion he would say that if the present administration had given the Territories
good government, if it occupied
such a strong position that even the
hon. member for Banff when they came
to analyse his speech was found, to
agree with them in the main, if they
had preserved the powers and the
rights of the Territories intact and had
so ordered the affairs of the country
that any government which followed
them could enter into their duties
without being hampered by either theirÂ
misdeeds or ther mistakes—if, he said,
this was the record of the Government,
then he thought that Government
ought to receive the commendation
and support of that legislature and of
the people at large. (Applause.)
SASKATCHEWAN SPEAKS UP.
Mr. MEYERS (Kinistino) said the
few remarks he had to make would not
delay the House for any great length
of time; in fact he had made up his
mind, not to take any part in that
the night's debate, but although not an
Irishman he thought he might be permitted an Irishman's privilege to
change his mind. In the first place
it afforded him great pleasure to add
his congratulations to the member for
Moose Jaw on the eminently satisfactory manner in which he had delivered
what might be called his maiden
speech as the Treasurer of the North- West Territories. He was sure the
House would agree with him that
that speech was not only ably
though out and well delivered, but
as to commend itself to the favorable
consideration, of the House. As one of
the old members he also quite agreed
with the hon. member for Moose Jaw
in regard to what he had said about
the budget speeches which had
been delivered in that chamber for
Some years past by the leader of the
House. As one of the oldest members
of the House he had listened with a
great deal of interest to those speeches,
and he was sure the information derived from those speeches, and the great
ability with which they were delivered
would long be remembered, by those
who had the privilege of listening to
Mr. Meyers went on to refer to
the system of education prevailing in
the Territories. They had, he said, not
heard much on the subject in that
session but in previous years they had
heard a great deal about the expensiveness of the system; Well, to those who
were unacquainted with the system it
might appear expensive; but the system was equal to any in Canada, and
he might go farther and say it was
equal to any system in the world. It
was a system which, the more it was
examined, the more it would commend
itself to the people of the Territories,
or of any other part of, the country.
He found that in something like six
years the school population had increased something like, 150 per cent;
 and although the rapid increase might
be embarrassing from a financial point
of view; yet he thought it was a fact on
which the country might congratulate
itself. With regard to the public
works he also thought the position
was one which would commend itself
to the favorable consideration of the
people of the Territories, as a whole.
He noticed in the estimates a certain
expenditure for deep wells and dams;
and he might say in the interests of
the people he represented that he
thought these were very important objects. Although in many portions of
his district there was an abundance of
water at easy depths, yet in other parts
deep wells were very much needed, and
he sincerely hoped that it was the intention of the Government to take into consideration
the wants of his part
of the country and of the whole of the
northern part of the country in respect
of those matters to which their attention had already been called. Then
again there was the question of agriculture which they would all agree
was a very important one. They had
heard a good deal about the excellent
system of the Department of Agriculture,and he quite agreed with the hon.
member for Banff that this was one of
the most important departments, as
agriculture was one of the most important, in fact in every way the most important
industry in the country. There
could be no doubt about that; and
with reference to that department he
thought that what should be aimed at
was as thorough and efficient a system
as possible with a view of bringing out
the best capabilities of the country at
large. It seemed to him that there
was no department which had a better
opportunity of showing, the capabilities of the country rapidly and successfully than
the Department of Agriculture. They were informed that the
system at Regina was an expensive
system, but when they looked at the
vast extent of this country, he could
not see that it was expensive in comparison with the amount of work to be
done. Certainly he thought it would
be premature for any one to come to
the conclusion at present that it was
more expensive than the necessities of
the country called for. It had only
been in vogue a few months. A year
ago they had no agricultural department whatever, and to-day so far as he
was in a position to judge they had a
department in the hands of a very efficient staff of officials who were maintained
at an expense which he did not
think at all out of proportion in comparison with the amount, and importance of the
work which they performed. At a previous session a Brand
Ordinance was introduced. At that
time the proper registration of brands
was in its infancy, and he might go
further and say that it was in its infancy to-day compared with what it
would be. The number of brands had
increased one hundred per cent., viz.,
from 3,500 to 7,000. He thought that
was a pretty good proof that the system must be satisfactory, otherwise it
would not be so largely taken advantage of. Then again they had heard a
good deal about the experimental
farms. They had heard that they
might not be a success, and also that
they might be premature. As he understood it they were to be not so
much experimental farms in the large
sense of the term as experimental plots,
and the expense could not be very
great. The step was one in the right
direction and one that would commend
itself to the favorable consideration
of the farmers of the Territories, and
for which he thought the Agriculture
Department deserved a great deal of
credit.
There was another subject, however,
on which he regretted very much that
he could note agree with the hon. member of Moose Jaw, and that was the
omission from the Estimates of any
bounty for the destruction of coyotes.
It might seem to some that a matter
of $1,500 for this object was a small
matter and hardly worthy of consideration, but it was a matter that affected
the Saskatchewan country very seriously. In the last two or three years
the attention of the Government had
been drawn to the ravages purpetrated
by the coyotes and prairie wolves. Perhaps some hon. gentlemen might not
be aware—he was not aware of it himself till tow or three years ago—that
there was a difference between the coyote and the prairie wolf. The coyote
was more particularly destructive to
sheep. The prairie wolf was a cross
between the wolf proper and the coyote, and it was particularly
destructive to young animals. There
was a sum of $1,500 for the destruction
of timber wolves in the west. They
understood from the Territorial Treasurer that in the west the Stock Association paid
a certain bonus which was
to be supplemented by the Government grant. He (Mr. Meyers) wished
to say on behalf of the district he represented, and the people of the north,
that during the last three or four years
a small bounty had been subscribed by
the farmers themselves. No doubt the
amount was small, because the circumstances of the people were not perhaps
very large, but they had plodded on
year after year in this matter of wolf
destruction in the hope of receiving
some assistance from the Territorial
Government, and he had hoped that
some provision wouid be made in the
present Estimates. They were told
that if the same amount was given as
for timber wolves it would be very
small, but even if the provision made
were small he thought some provision
should be made with a view to helping
those who were helping themselves
with a view of protecting their cattle
and sheep and young animals. Reference had been made in the debate to
the subjects of immigration and provincial autonomy. These were important subjects,
but as the hour was getting late and there were others to follow he would not attempt
to grapple
with them, but leave them to other and
abler minds.
No one rising to continue the debate,
and it now being twenty minutes to
twelve (midnight),
Mr. Ross arose and said that if no
other hon. member desired to join in
the debate, he should exercise his right
and close the debate.
THE MEMBER FOR YORKTON.
DR. PATRICK arose, and was received with applause. He said he had not
intended to say anything that night and
had hoped that some other hon, members would while away the time till the
clock struck the hour of midnight. He
was not prepared with any notes but
nevertheless, rather than allow the debate to collapse, he would endeavor to
make a few observations on one or two
of the important matters, before the
House. He should like, to say with
regard to the Estimates that he agreed
to a certain extent with the hon. member for Banff in the objection to the
lack of detail. On the other hand he
understood the position of the hon.
Commissioner of Public Works when
he pointed thedifficultyof getting exact information from the members as
to the nature and the location of the
works required in the various
districts; and hethought the explanation sufficiently satisfactory and reasonable
to allow him to permit himself
to assent on the present occasion to the
passing of the Estimates in, the form
in which they were presented. At the
same time he did not think it should
be accepted as a precedent. He thought
all the information as to expenditure
should be set out in the Estimates. A
member should not be, as it were, a
mere conduit pipe between the Government and the people he represented,
but should have every opportunity of
forming an intelligent opinion and, if
necessary, of formulating any criticism
on the various subjects which came before the House for consideration.
He was not willing that the powers
vested in him as it representative of
the people should be handed over bodily to the Government to be exercised
by order in council. Rather than assent
to such a course as that he would prefer to hand them back to his constituents from
whom he obtained them. He
did not believe much in government by
order in council, but when the hon.
member for Moose Jaw said he would
give details in committee of the
inost important works and knowing the
hon, gentleman as he did, and never
having had any reason to doubt his
word, he was willing to accept his
statement that a fairly detailed
statement would be brought down
when the House went into Supply.
With regard to the Civil Service
he must say that he believed in good
men at good salaries. He believed in
the employment in every department
of the public service of men thoroughly
fitted for the work they had to do. In
these latter days he thought it necessary that all public servants who were
newly engaged should be stenographers
and typewriters, except of course in the
case of those who had other qualifications, and who would be fitted rather
to direct the work of stenographers
and typewriters than to perform that
class of work themselves. He was very
leased to note from the return
rought down that the civil service
was composed largely of very competent men who had that thorough
technical and clerical qualification
which the country had a right to expect. Referring to that item of expenditure which
was made necessary by
the addition of another resident member of the Executive Council, he said
that in view of the circumstances of
the country and the important questions waiting to be dealt with, it
was a wise move to take in that third
member of the Government. He was
prepared to express his approval of the
action of the Government in that regard. He thought it was quite in order
to refer to the personal qualifications
of the new Commissioner. When the
Yukon debate was on last year he took
occasion to refer in very favorable
terms to the manner in which the hon.
member for South Qu'Appelle had discharged his mission; and having that
in view he (Dr. Patrick) certainly
thought the hon. member had given
proofof his fitness for the new sphere
to which he had been called. He
would now pass oil to the constitutional question which so intimately and
so seriously concerned the future of
the country. He believed in delaying
as long as possible the taking on of
provincial status. One reason for that,
was that whatever might be the condition of things in the west he did
not think the people of the east were
sufficiently educated as to the moral
rights of this country; and he did not
think the representatives in the Dominion House were at present prepared
to give the people of the Territories
their rights for the simple reason that
at this present time, they had a very
inadequate appreciation of the true
scope and value of those rights. He
thought it would take some time for
the eastern members to get over the
fact that the payment of ÂŁ300,000 to
the Hudson Bay Company did not
convey the right to govern this country, Let them, if possible, delay the
settlement of this question till they
had a much larger population which
would give them a fairly large representation at Ottawa—a representation
large enough to influence the Government at Ottawa and to induce them to
take a reasonable view of the position
of the Territories. Dr. Patrick went on
to point out that there was no precedent
in Canada for a territory being erected
into a province, and therefore they
had to look for precedent to the great
country to the south of us where the
admission of territories to the dignity
of Statehood had been going on for a
great number of years. If they looked
at their practice they would find that
the territory of Dakota was not divided into States until it had obtained a
population of 485,000. He would point
out that it was possible for the North- West Territories to enjoy all the
powers of a province saye and except
that its legislation would continue to
be subject to the federal legislation.
They might have every one of those
powers so long as those powers were
subject to the higher federal power.
As to many of the powers that certain members were clamoring for—the
powers to charter railways, to borrow
money, to deal with land registration
and so on—those powers might be
given and we might still remain Territories; and knowing that this was so
he was pleased to find that the propoÂ
sition made by the Government contemplated the obtaining of all those
powers while leaving the matter of
provincial status to be settled later on
in the next few years. He believed in
taking over powers in driblets as it
were. He thought the experience of
the Territories in that line might be
taken as a very safe guide in the future.
If they took over powers, one by one,
until they obtained all the powers of
a province saving that their legislation
would be subject to Ottawa, they
would be in a position of making their
own laws while the Parliament at Ottawa would stand to them somewhat in the relation
of a Senate. They
would have the Dominion Government
exercising a power over them similar
to that which the Imperial Government exercised over the Dominion.
Probably that power would not often
be exercised, but the mere fact that it
was there would make the need for its
exercise the less. That, then, was the
next position that should be assumed
by these Territories—that they could
have all the enumerated powers of the
Provinces save that those powers
would be subject to Dominion legislation, and still remain Territories. If
they could, do that, if they could postpone the final day of settlement until
they had sufficient weight in the federal councils to enable them to have a
reasonable chance of obtaining their
rights—if, he said, they could do this,
he thought it would be to their advantage. On the other hand, if they
clamored too early for those rights
they would be very apt to find themselves in the position of Manitoba.
They would be very apt to tie their
hands with a settlement that it would
be very difficult to get out of if they
left nothing of the public domain on,
which, to found a new bargain. The
salvation of Manitoba is the other
territory that it has and which may
enable them to re-open the question of
settlement. That was a good reason
to his mind for delaying a final settlement of the claims of the Territories
on the Dominion. There was another
important consideration. If one made
a study of the basis of the subsidies of
the Provinces he would come to the
conclusion that the basis was unfair.
They knew that large debts incurred
by the provincial governments were
assumed by the Dominion at confederation. When they came to determine
what the debt capital of Manitoba.
should be they were in a difficulty.
Manitoba had no debt, and it was
necessary that she should be placed on
an equality with the other provinces
whose public debts had been assumed,
but it was very difficult to determine
what the basis should be. It would be
a very difficult thing for any man, or
any set of men, to determine what
would be an equitable basis on which
to fix the debt capital of the Territories.
He would rather see it delayed in the
hope that the whole question would be
re-opened by the provinces, and that it
might then be settled on an equitable
basis of so much per head of the population. It seemedto him that if the
Dominion of Canada could assume provincial debts amounting to some 70
millions or thereabouts—if it could assume those debts incurred for local purposes—he
was quite sure that it would
be to the advantage of the Dominion
to advance such sums for the public
services of the Territories as would
do away with any need for the
Territories, going into the money
markets of the world, and getting
into debt. The Territories might,
have the power to contract a debt,
the same as the provinces, but if it had
the power and used it, then when they
became a province the Dominion
would have to assume the debt in the
same way it had done with other provinces. They heard of the sum of
$3,800,000 incurred on capital account
by the Dominion in respect of the Territories. He thought it was about
time they should know what this had
been expended for; what had been expended for local purposes; what
amount was fairly chargeable to us as
Territories, and what amount would be
fairly chargeable to us as a province.
Then again before we assumed provincial status there should be an absolute and accurate
determination of
2
THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 11, 1899.
our boundaries. This was necessary
for various reasons
On school districts and local improvement districts were loaning money
through the exemption of land from
taxation. This was through no fault
of ours and the people of Canada. We should
have compensation. We should be in
a position to claim from the people of
Canada money compensation for the
loss we sustain because because of these exemptions; and before we were in a
position to make this claim for compensation we ought to know exactly
what our boundaries were. This, therefore, was another step to be taken in
the matter.
But that raised yet another question;
viz., whether their boundaries should
really extend to the Arctic circle. He
very much doubted the wisdom of
that. They were asking a good deal
from the Doininion Government when
they asked as much as that. He
thought they were asking for something they were not likely to get. He
did not think any government in Canada would ever grant it. It was a
question whether it would be of any
utility if we did get it. He questioned
if that very far northern country
would ever become inhabited; but if it
did and the inhabitants should desire
to be added to the new province there
was machinery in the British North
America Act by which that addition
could be made, but he did not believe
that the northern boundary of the new
province should extend to the North
Pole. He thought they should take
the 60th parallel of latitude for the
northern boundary. That was the
northern boundary of British Columbia.
The new province would therefore be
bounded by the 60th parallel on the
north, by Manitoba on the east and
British Columbia on the west. This
province, south of the 60th parallel,
would contain an area somewhere in
in the neighbourhood of 520, 000 square
miles, or an area half as great as that
of all the other provinces put together.
Would we not be asking the Dominion
a great deal—would we not be asking
them to much—when we asked to be
made into a province half as large as
the rest of the Dominion? He was
sure they did not wish to ask for anything unreasonable. This matter must
be dealt with not only from a Territorial but from a Canadian point of
view. How would it strike the other
provinces?—how would it strike for
instance the province of Ontario to
have a province more that twice as
large itself? There was danger to
his mind in confederation—a danger
that strong provinces or states might
be a menace to confederation itself.
He thought the strength of a confederation was in the weakness of its units.
He thought the strength of its units
was the weakness of confederation.
He remembered when the United
States constitution was subject to considerable strain by reason of sectional
feeling of the east against the west.
It was more difficult to give effect to
that feeling when the States were
relatively small than when they were
relatively large. Now he should be
sorry to be understood as giving expression to the idea that we needed to
increase the number of local governments in this country. One local government would
serve our need for
years to come yet. It would be ridiculous to give 100, 000 or 200, 000 people
a double set of legislative machinery.
But when we asked the Dominion Government to vest us with more powers,
we should ask ourselves the question
"What is to be our ultimate status?"
"If" continued Dr. Patrick, "we
should decide o an ultimate division into two provinces—and my own
opinion is that an ultimate division into two provinces is a desirable
thing- if we should decide on two provinces, then there is no reason why we
should not have the two provinces defined as two Territories and united together for
the purpose of government
under one government." We had, he
said, had the name of the North-West
Territories of Canada now for some
twenty-five years. If we were to be
one province let us be established now
as one Territory, with one name. If
we were to have two provinces then
let there be two Territories with distinctive names but one government.
He might remind them that Upper and
Lower Canada from 1841 to 1867 were
united. There were obstacles to the
union of those provinces which did not
exist in this country. There were
differences of race and creed that prevented for some years a harmonious
union, but if they could get along for
twenty-six or twenty-seven years, surely we in the west can get along
for fifteen or twenty years. But he
thought they ought not only look ahead
for 15 or 20 years, they should look
farther than that. This country was
capable of supporting a population of
millions. Its territory was larger
than Norway, Sweden and Finland, and
surely it was capable of supporting a
larger population than those countries.
Not only was our country larger, but
our climate was not so inhospitable,
the country was not so mountainous,
there was room for a much larger agricultural population; and the population of Norway,
Sweden and Finaland
was about seven millions. They must
look forward to the time when these
Territories would have been five millions, or
even ten millions of people occupying
it. The question arose, What would be
the state of things then? That was the
point of view from which this matter
must be looked at by the Government
and the Parliament and the people of
Canada; and it was our duty to look
at it as Canadians as well as residents
of the Territories. He did not believe
that at the present time, nor for years
yet, nor for many years yet, not until
the population reached 500,000 or even
more, that we should ask to be separated. For years at least the government should
be vested in one legislature—as long perhaps as Lower and
Upper Canada stayed together, we
might remain as a united province.
Another reason that made him take
this view of the question was that he
believed when provincial status is established the question of a portion of
the Territories being hitched on to a
neighbouring provinces would arise. He
thought that if we tried to have one
very large province established under
one government it would excite sufficient jealousy to make the people of
the province of Manitoba ask for an
extension of their boundaries. If it
were clear to him that our boundaries
would not be interfered with; if he
were assured that no interference
would be attempted with a view to
hitch any section of the eastern portion
of the Territories on to Manitoba—he
quite admitted that then from the local
point of view a large area under one
government would be best. If a
large area could be established as one
province, and it could be left to
the people themselves when the population grew large enough to seek for
division—for the province to seek division of itself—that would put a deifferent aspect
on the matter; but what he
feared was that if we sought to have
too large a territory established as one
province, it would lead to a division of
the whole which would be anything
but satisfactory to the inhabitants of
the eastern portion of the Territories.
For that and for many other reasons
he was inclined to hold that we should
look at this question fairly, and ask
ourselves whether, 200,000 square miles
which would be the area of each province if we were divided, was too small
an area for a province in the years to
come. He would like to repeat that he
was no advocate for any unneccessary
machinery of local government or any
other government machinery, but he
thought they should look at this question not from the point of view of the
present, or of the immediate future, or
of the comparatively near future, but
from the point of view of the far
distant future. (Applause)
The motion to go into supply was
then agreed to. Mr. Speaker left the
chair. The House resolved into committee.
Mr. Haultain moved that the
committee rise and report progress
and ask leave to sit again; and the
House adjourned at midnight.
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