12
THE LEADER, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1908.
SATURDAY, NOV. 21st.
The House met at 11 o'clock this
morning to resume the consideration
of the Estimates. On the vote for the
brand book,
Mr. Finlay drew attention
to the long delay which had occurred
in the issue of the book and the great
inconvenience which resulted. He
suggested that a supplement to the
book be issued every month and sent
to all inspectors so as to enable them
to identify and trace stock.
Mr.
McDonald suggested that the Government should endeavor to ascertain how
many export cattle there were in the
country. An interesting discussion
occurred on the vote for education, in
which it was shown by several speakers
how the foreign population coming
into the Territories was adapting itself
to our conditions and particularly in
the desire to have educational facilities
for their children. The Estimates were
passed through committee and the
House rose at 12.30 o'clock.
DR. PATRICK RESUMES DEBATE.
When the House re-assembled at
two o'clock
Dr. Patrick resumed the
debate on the budget. He commenced
by again referring to the reasons which
the Opposition had to congratulate
themselves on the legislation of the
past three sessions. There had not
only been an improvement in legislation but also in the policy of the
Government respecting several important Ordinances.
On the question of provincial autonomy and one or more provinces Dr.
Patrick said the first resolution they
passed did not commit the House one
way or the other. Later the Government in their negotiations at Ottawa
declared for one province, but now the
House had once more urged for autonomy regardless of the number of
provinces. The Premier in his last
election address had said, if he remembered rightly, that one province would
do for the present time; the other
question could be considered later.
Dr. Patrick then took up the question
of the capital advance. At first he
said he feared that it might be accepted but the announcement made in the
House yesterday cleared the Government when the Premier declared that
it was not intended to accept it. It
would be a mistake for the Government to borrow money from those who
owed us. The question as to whom
the advance would be made also arose
as they did not know the boundaries
of the provinces which were to be. As
to the statement that it would be loaned without interest, the Speaker declared it
would be charged against us
for all time to come and after the
settlement when we became a a province
we would be mulcted for five per cent.
for all time to come. The interest
which we would lose would amount to
$12,500 a year. He believed when we
became a province we could borrow
money as low as three per cent., which,
capitalised at three per cent., meant
$166,000. This represented the loss
which would result to the country
from the acceptance of the capital advance. The Opposition felt constrained to support
the Government in its
policy. The Legislature was powerless
to do more than it had done. Unfortunately the Territories had been
placed in an equivocal position by reason of the fact that the Territorial
representatives at Ottawa thought one
way and the representatives here
thought another way. That was a
position which the Assembly could not
help or end without surrendering its
opinions on the matter. The position
could only be ended by the people of
the Territories themselves and could
only be done by sending to Ottawa
men who believed in the immediate
granting of provincial institutions,
men who believed in granting to the
people of the Territories their rights of
local self-government. Until that time
arrived they must be content with
things as they were. In conclusion
Dr. Patrick said that while the Opposition supported the Government on
its general policy they would examine
their actions with a critical eye, but
otherwise they would not oppose it,
"not in the life of the present House
at least."
THE OPPOSITION LEADER.
Mr. McDonald said the present session of the House was the most important held for many years.
Some of the
legislation which they had to deal with
touched them in a most important
way. On that side of the House they
had not said much in speech on the
question of autonomy, but on looking
into the matter fully he was satisfied
that the Government had done the
proper thing in refusing to take advantage of the capital account placed
within its reach by the Dominion Parliament. (Hear, hear). They should
let the authorities at Ottawa know
that we are not going to be satisfied
with money only. There were principles at stake. (Hear, hear). They
were pressing for autonomy and all the
advantages that should go with it. If
they had accepted the grant it might
have placed them at the mercy of the
Dominion Government forever. If at
any time it was agreed upon by the
Assembly to authorise the Government
to seek for a capital advance from the
federal authorities they should first
decide on what works the money was
to be expended. When matters came
to be finally dealt with, when the time
arrived to make two provinces, the
matter of a final adjustment of capital
account between the different parts of
the Territories would have to be dealt
with. The House should be unanimous
on this question. The people in the
country had watched the Opposition
on this question as closely as they had
watched the Government. They had
suspicions that some Members of the
House were going to treat this other
than as a North-West question. It
should be treated purely as a North- West question. (Hear, hear).
Mr. McDonald did not consider the
present the most favorable time for
holding the session of the Legislature.
It was neither at the close of one financial year nor at the beginning of
another. If they considered the best
interests of the whole country the best
time for holding the sessions would be
in the early part of the calendar year,
both for the convenience of Members,
the benefit of the country and the
transaction of business as it should be
transacted. He looked with favor on
the amendments brought in at the
present session but he wished to again
record his disapproval of establishing
local districts of only four townships.
The people would find that that area
was much too small for any proper
system. He also wished to take
exception to some language used in
the House the previous day with
reference to our demands upon the
federal government. He did not think
it was a wise thing for the Leader of
the House to say that no Government
at Ottawa could grant their demands.
They should not place ourselves in the
position of saying that we have not
got a good case, as the language used
would lead them to believe. They had
good demands and had evidence to
support them and should urge them in
that spirit. If, said Mr. McDonald,
the Dominion Government believes
that we do not believe in them
ourselves, or that they cannot grant
them, that is a very good argument
for not meeting them. He trusted
also that in future the Government
would leave out the question of one
province and simpy seek for the
granting of provincial rights and then
this point of contention would not be
brought up in that House. They could
agree with the Government on the
main question of the day; other
questions should under existing
circumstances be left alone. (Applause.)
FAVORED ACCEPTANCE OF ADVANCE.
Mr. A. S. Smith (Moosomin) congratulated the Government on the very
large amount of money they were able
to vote during the session. The requirements of the country were very
much greater than they were a year
ago or even six months ago and they
would continue to increase. The demands on the local Government would
continue to increase and our demands
on the federal Government would also
continue to increase until provincial
autonomy was granted. He neither
agreed with the Government nor the Opposition on the question as to whether
the capital advance should be accepted
or not. In the past they were all well
aware that the amounts of money sufficient to carry on the government of
the country were not forthcoming.
They voted and spent money and
created debt and the federal Parliament had paid it. The country required roads and
bridges today more
than ever. The transportation question
was the big question in the West and
roads and bridges were a part of that
question and affected it as much as
anything else. He believed the Government should have accepted the
capital grant. He would not like to
go back to his constituents and say
that he had not raised his voice against
the Government refusing that grant.
He understood at the summer session
that it was because the amount necessary to construct the two bridges in
the western portion of the Territories
was being charged against this advance
that the local Government would not
accept it. That was the position then
but it was altered now because the
federal Government was paying for
those two bridges and that objection
was therefore withdrawn.
In the House and in the country he
had discussed the provincial question
as strongly as any Member, and,
while perhaps not with the same
ability as some others, he had always
brought the question before the people
as forcibly as he had been able to do.
As to the question of one or two
provinces, if the time ever came when
the Assembly and the country thought
there should be two provinces it would
then be for the people of the Territories
themselves to decide. His opinion was
one province and that it would be best
for the whole country. It was never
expected that the Dominion authorities
would at the very first see eye to eye
with the Territories in their demands.
He hoped that eventually the
settlement would be on the lines
suggested by the Government of the
North-West and the people would
thank the Government in years to
come. He regretted that on the
question of the capital advance he had
to take a different view of the question
to that taken by the Members of the
Government. His convictions forced
him to it and he would stultify himself
to do otherwise. (Applause.)
congratulated the House on having
been able to provide an expenditure
which would not place the Territories
in debt or which contemplated any
overdraft, but the only solution of the
difficulties with which they were faced
was the granting of the provincial
status. The Premier's speech appealed
to the sound common sense of the
House and would appeal to the country.
It was not the speech of a party leader
but of the leader of a great people
crying out for a change. There had
been two sets of reasons advanced by
two sets of persons as to why the
granting of provincial autonomy
should be delayed. There were what
he might call the official reasons and
the semi-official reasons. The first of
these were those given by the Premier
of Canada and the Minister of the Interior but it was not his purpose to discuss these.
They were not sound. The
House by the adoption of the resolution that week had said they were not
sound, that they were insufficient, inadequate reasons, and he would leave
them there. If by an accident there
should be two sides at Ottawa seeing
matters in a different light, that was
no reason why one side should be considered to know our affairs better than
ourselves, or why if one side supported
our claims and were willing to grant
our petition we should not support
them. He referred to the fight against
railway monopoly in Manitoba, where,
he declared, the Conservatives had opposed their party friends at Ottawa in
the interests of the province and he
appealed to the patriotism of the Members of the House to stand united in
the struggle whether it be against a
Liberal or a Conservative government
until the Territories received that
measure of justice to which they were
entitled.
He would refer to the semi-official
reasons for delay. The Member for
13
THE LEADER, THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 26, 1908.
THE BUDGET DEBATE
(Continued from page 5.)
Saskatchewan was clear and distinct
on the question. He said we do not
need provincial autonomy. He would
leave that to the sound judgement of
the thirty-five representtives in the
Assembly. The Member for Alberta
alleged that it was a good deal better
to continue as we are and that it was
only a matter of dollars and cents.
Then there were the reasons advanced by the Member for West
Assiniboia as to why provincial autonomy should be refused. These had
been satisfactorily answered by the
Attorney General. He (
Bennett ) had
taken the attitude in times past in the
House that the Government ought to
co-operate as far as possible with the
Members at Ottawa representing the
North-West Territories to the end of
procuring better terms. He believed
that four Members at Ottawa supporting the Government would have a
great influence to that end. He had
moved a resolution to that effect. It
was no doubt in pursuance of that
policy that Mr. Bulyea wrote his personal letter, backed up by the Liberal
Members of the Assembly. He had no
fault to find with it in so far as it referred to the Territories as a whole
and not to a part of it. It was a common thing to write such letters and he
had done so himself in the past and
would probably do so in the future.
But the House had every reason to believe that their representations would
be received and considered with care
at Ottawa. It came to him as a surprise the reasons given by the North- West Members.
He had believed that
these gentlemen would stand up for
the rights of the West apart from all
considerations. He did not intend to
go into the reasons they had advanced
as it would be idle to do so after the
speech of the Attorney General. The
House, however, owed a large duty to
itself which it must discharge. He had
read yesterday an editorial in a paper
published by one of the gentlemen
representing the Territories in the
House of Commons, he referred to the
Regina Leader, in which the statement
was made that the solemn demand
made by this House in 1900, in 1902, in
1903 and reaffirmed the other day was,
after all, what? Merely an attempt
on the part of a great corporation to
help to assist the movement for autonomy in order that certain rights
might accrue to them and that the
lands in these Territories, which we
are so anxious to obtain, should be
granted to the end that a Conservative
administration might be empowered in
the Territories. A statement like that
called for refutation. It was not what
he contended for; further it was not
what the House contended for. It was
a statement insulting not to one man
alone but it did violence to every
instinct of decency coming from such
a source. Coming, as it did, from
a journal which had supported the
Government in this House, which
called upon the federal Government to
grant our demands, the statement of
yesterday ill accorded with former
statements. It ill accorded with the
editorial utterances of that paper in
the past and with the speeches of that
gentleman. In the interests of a
sound public opinion, in the interests
of the stability of our institutions, he
protested that the policy of a
demagogue should not be intruded on
a question such as this. He did not
believe that any Member in the House
believed that any attempt was being
made by that Legislature to have
provincial institutions granted to the
country immediately and the lands
given to us to promote any interests of
any corporation.
TAXATION OF C.P.R. LANDS.
He had made the statement that so
far as taxing C.P.R. lands in school
districts was concerned that was a
question that was solving itself. He
made that statement before and he
made it again and it was absolutely
correct. He would say that it was an
unfortunate thing that so large an
exemption was granted to that
corporation and it was the duty of the
House to get some compensation for
it. Who could cast the horoscope of
the future and see 20 years in advance?
No man in the House of Commons of
that day could to it. The same policy
had been followed in the United
States. It was unfortunate that in the
early stages school taxes were not paid
for school purposes by that corporation,
but was it any reason because a few
thousand dollars of school taxes would
be lost in Assiniboia that the Territories
should be deprived of the right of
self-government? He adopted the
reasoning of the Attorney General
with regard to the contention as to
taxing stations, and the other property
of the corporation in so far as the
rights of school districts were
concerned. If the court of last resort
held that the Territories had a right to
tax C.P.R. lands for school purposes
then could not the Parliament which
granted the exemption insert a
provision giving us all the rights as a
province which we have as Territories?
REASONS FOR REFUSING THE ADVANCE.
The larger question had been raised
as to whether or not they should spend
the $250,000 held up before them by
the Dominion Parliament. For one
he said they should not. It would be
unsound business to touch it. There
were several reasons against accepting
it. First, until our just demands had
been satisfactorily met by the federal
Government. Second, because it
meant a direct lessening of the federal
expenditure in this country. The
Dominion Government was paying for
the two bridges in the west which had
been referred to but what happened
the other day when a deputation went
to Ottawa and asked for the construction of a large traffic bridge at Saskatoon? Sir
Wilfrid Laurier simply
said "Go to Regina and they will
build it for you out of the capital
advance." That meant that instead of
building the bridge and charging the
cost against Canada as a whole it
would be charged against the capital
account of the Territories. Here in
the West we had no canals or harbors
to be constructed as public works by
the Dominion and in this country he
contended that these large bridges
should be considered public works for
the benefit of Canada and the whole of
Canada should pay their share towards
them in the same way as the people in
the West were paying their share for
digging canals, erecting lighthouses,
dredging harbors, etc., in the old
provinces. A third reason was that it
was fastening a loan on the people of
the Territories on terms about which
they had nothing to say. With provincial autonomy they could borrow
money at least as low as four per cent.
While they would get the sum offered
without interest now it would ultimately cost them $12,500 per annum
for ever. In the early days in the
Western States the States and Territories enjoyed the power of borrowing
money and pledging the public credit
and so confident were they of the
future that they paid as high as ten
per cent per annum and the investment had proved a good one. Fourth,
it would mean putting off the granting
of provincial institutions. The Dominion would take the position of the federal
Members that it was merely a question
of money and not of principle. Fifth,
the very fact of being styled Territories
instead of having the dignity of a
province was an injury and a man
going abroad to do business would soon
realise the great advantage of coming
from a province rather than a territory. The business men today were
writing at the head of their letter
paper "Regina, Canada," instead of
"Regina, N.W.T.," or "Assiniboia."
It was difficult to divest oneself entirely of
party bias in dealing with this question but he had endeavoured to do so.
In conclusion he appealed to his Liberal
friends not to allow party exigencies
to outweigh the country's interests.
The constituencies which had returned
them before to press for autonomy
would return them again. (Applause.)
followed. He congratulated the Government on the result of its efforts on
behalf of the North-West, not only on
the result of its appeals to Ottawa, but
also on its legislation and the administration of the affairs of the Territories.
He congratulated also the members of
the Opposition upon the fact that they
too had found themselves in complete
unison with the Government policy on
those questions which during past
sessions they had complained of so
strongly and that that legislation
which they had been pleased to term
as an invasion of the people's rights
had been so modified that they had
found themselves without a place as
adverse critics and that henceforth we
might expect to see them good and
valiant supporters of the Government.
So far as asking for provincial autonomy was concerned, or the demands
made upon the Ottawa Government for
increased financial assistance, as well as
the extension of our Legislative powers,
he said the House had taken no step at
variance with his opinion. The question as to whether there should be
one province or two, was, in his opinion, a minor matter as compared with
the question of keeping the Territories
as a whole separate from conditions
other than conditions which they
themselves had created. The great
question was that the Territories should
be either erected into one large province, or, if it were argued that on
account of their immense area they
should have a preponderating influence
in the affairs of the Dominion, then it
might be considered advisable to divide
the Territories as now constituted into
two or more provinces, but he did not
think that any one in this country
would disagree with him when he said
that it would be unfair to any portion
of these Territories to be united to
any of the other provinces against their
will and to be subjected to the conditions and burdens, the creation of
which they are not responsible for. It
might be argued that on their being
thrust into another province, matters
could be arranged so as to give them
justice, but he submitted that even if
such were done, the chances of the
minority retaining in the end what
they were morally entitled to would not
be very promising. The interests of all
parts of the Territories are similar, the
conditions which obtain throughout
the country are uniform. In the business world of today companies were
amalgamating and consolidating in
order that business might be conducted more cheaply, and he believed the
same business principles which govern
private business could be applied with
equal force to public affairs and he
firmly believed in the one province
idea.
Regarding the financial position,
Mr.
Brown said, that while they all agreed
that the amounts received from the
Dominion Government in the past
were not sufficient, nor what we were
justly entitled to, still it was a matter
for congratulation to the Government
of the Territories that they had secured such a very substantial increase to
their current revenue.
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