[...] Williston
               in 1858, and my mind is still  
               unchanged. I am thoroughly in
               favor of 
               responsible Government as any man in  
               this country, and it is the ruling principle  
               in my mind ; but I do not see that it at all  
               bears on the placing the members of departments out of the House. It is more 
               dangerous to the liberties of the people to 
               have those salaried officers in the House, 
               because when a man gets one of those 
               offices he will struggle for life and death 
               to hold it ; he will go round soliciting 
               votes here and there, and resort to many 
               things he otherwise would not, in order 
               that he may not lose his salary. When 
               we have three paid members of the Government on the floors of the House, we 
               have as many as we should have. The 
               Attorney General, I think, is the best paid 
               man in the country, as in addition to his 
               salary, his office gives him a status in 
               the profession, while it does not interfere  
               with it, as it does not take the whole of his  
               time ; but it is necessary for his salary to  
               be high to secure the most talented man  
               to fill the office. In regard to the office
               
               of Post Master General, I am prepared to  
               vote for removal of the office, even if there 
               is no saving to be effected by it, for the 
               office is merely local in its character, and 
               is not one of much importance, as is the 
               case in England, where they keep a correspondence with all parts of the world. 
               I do not think it is necessary to have an 
               inspector appointed, for clerks can often 
               be sent out of the office to inspect the 
               different Post Offices without interfering 
               with the duties of the department. There 
               has been a cry raised that this was preparatory to a removal of the seat of Government
               to St. John. I do not think removing a couple of clerks to St. John will 
               have any influence in moving the seat of 
               Government. If the question of removing 
               it to St. John came up, and I voted against 
               it, I do not think there would be five of 
               my constituents would find fault with me. 
               The resolutions which I have placed before the House, will be the means of 
               perpetuating the seat of Government here, 
               because the difficulties in getting to 
               Fredericton will not be so great as they 
               have been. This system of railways will 
               prevent the necessity or desirability of 
               removing the seat of Government. If a 
               city is in a position to go vigorously into 
               manufacturing and trading operations, the 
               accumulation of public offices and idlers 
               will weaken and destroy the business 
               habits of young men, and they will not 
               acquire the habit of application necessary 
               to put them forward in the world. 
               
            
            
            
            
             Mr.
                  WILLISTON.—It is unnecessary for 
               me at this stage of the proceeding to say 
               much on this subject ; but I feel bound 
               by the position I have taken in reference 
               to this subject, to say a few words before 
               the vote is taken. You must remember 
               in 1858, after the office of Post Master 
               General became political, I felt bound to 
               bring in a Bill to repeal that Act. I have 
               been Post Master for some years past, 
               and am pretty well acquainted with the 
               routine of duties which he has to perform. 
               I felt satisfied that eight or nine heads of 
               departments in a House of forty-one members were more than was required, and I 
               felt it my duty to do all in my power to 
               bring about some reform. Mr. Howe, having been educated at his father's office, 
               who was a Post Master at Halifax, has a 
               through acquaintance with the duties of 
               the office, and could perform them much 
               more satisfactorily than a person who knows 
               nothing of the duties, but is appointed 
               because his party has come into power. 
               I have been here for seven years fighting 
               against political influence. I thought 
               
               
 
               
               that the Government had too many political heads on the floors of the House, and 
               I for one was determined that I would do 
               all in my power to lessen the number of 
               them. In 1859, I brought in a Bill to 
               repeal the Act making this office a political one. I found my hon. friend from St.
               
               John, (Mr. Cudlip) who was a prominent 
               member of the House, voting with me, 
               although we numbered but ten. It is 
               gratifying to me now to find members who 
               opposed me on that occasion, when endeavouring to effect that wholesome reform, have
               changed their minds, and are 
               now introducing this as a Government 
               measure. It is a proud satisfaction to all 
               of us who voted on that occasion. to find 
               public opinion so changed that the Government now comes forward to effect that 
               change which the exigencies of the case 
               require. I was sorry to hear my hon. 
               friend from Carleton (Mr. Connell) deny 
               a case where he ignored the decision of 
               the Council. The case was the loss of a 
               money letter sent by "Elijah Clark," and 
               the Postmaster General himself, without 
               the advice of his Council, paid that claim. 
               (Mr. Connell.—" I deny the accusation.") 
               He did that without the advice of his 
               Council, and against the advice of his predecessors. (Mr. Connell —" Bring
               forward your proofs.") I can bring forward 
               the proofs. It has been said that if we 
               abolish the office of Postmaster General, 
               we should have to appoint a Post Office 
               Surveyor to inspect the Post Offices. 
               This is unnecessary, as the work could be 
               done by the head Clerks in the St. John 
               office. The Postmaster General receives 
               ÂŁ600 a year. besides his travelling expenses, which amounted last year to $548 ; 
               the public has to pay those travelling expenses, even when incurred on an electioneering
               tour. I am happy to see the 
               day when the President of the Council, 
               after seeing the necessity of the case, has 
               the correctness to come forward and propound a measure of this kind, which I, an 
               humble number of this House, advocated 
               some years ago. 
               
               
 
            
            
             Mr. NEEDHAM.—I
               confess my mind is 
               not made up on the same grounds as the 
               hon. member who last addressed you. I  
               do not think became he entertained an  
               opinion that was wrong, and the President of the Council now
               entertains an  
               opinion that was wrong, that he should keep  
               that opinion. If the arguments, which  
               appear to have borne very heavily upon  
               the mind of the hon. member who last addressed you, are sound, then no
               political  
               office ought to be sustained. If
               the
               head  
               Clerk in the office can bear the responsibility, then abolish the whole of them. 
               
               There is not a question that has come before the Legislature at this time that
               has  
               occupied so much of my thoughts
               and attention, and to which I have given so  
               much serious consideration as this subject. I stand in an anomalous position ; here
               is a Government
               measure 
               brought down by a Government I
               was  
               sent here to sustain—in whom I have confidence both financially and politically, 
               and whose acts in this House I am prepared to support so far as I can consistently
               with my own responsibility to the 
               people that sent me her. They sent me 
               here to support that Government, or a 
               Governement formed on Anti-Confederate 
               principles. Unfortunately for me. I took 
               a different view from the Government in 
               reference to this question. I was here in 
               1854, when a resolution was introduced 
               by some hon. member of the House, in 
               order to make the Surveyor General's 
               office and the Postmaster General's office 
               political. I then opposed making the 
               
               
               
               Surveyor
               General's office a political one,  
               because I believed that the head of that 
               office ought to be a Surveyor himself, and 
               understand his business, so as to know 
               when his subordinates did right or wrong. 
               Unless we got a political man
               on the  
               floors of the House who understood all  
               the operations that belonged to an office
               
               of that kind. I did not think
               it right to  
               make it a political office. I
               opposed it  
               then, and if there was a question of that  
               kind before the House now, I
               would still  
               oppose it ; for I believe the office of political Surveyor General to be
               useless.  
               With regard to the Post Master General's  
               office, I say this : If the Government can  
               show that by making the office non-political the country is going to save a great
               
               deal of money, that they can save
               twelve  
               or fifteen thousand dollars, I am
               prepared  
               to go for it, however inimical it may
               be  
               to
               the interests of my constituents ;
               but  
               they have not done it. and cannot do it.  
               (Hon. Mr. Smith. We will save $3.000.)  
               Have they shown it? They have not,  
               and cannot show it. They cannot get  
               along without more clerks, and
               they will  
               have to increase the salaries of the officers they now have on account of the increased
               labour and increased responsibility. With regard to my own private  
               views about all these officers being on the  
               floors of the House, I think in a House of  
               only forty-one members, the fewer  
               political officers on the floors
               of
               the  
               House the better for the country ; but that  
               is not the reason why I oppose the Bill.  
               I oppose it because the Government do  
               not show that it is going to
               benefit the  
               country by saving any money. Another  
               ground is, because by late
               arrangements  
               the Post Office Department has
               almost  
               become a banking institution. I saw an  
               account that an increase of $24,605
               in  
               money orders over six
               corresponding  
               months of last year, had passed
               through  
               the Post Office since the money order  
               system had been introduced by the late
               
               Government. Now I ask it this House  
               prepared to put this into the hands of  
               irresponsible men ? If the
               Government  
               appoint a man to a situation, and that
               
               man does wrong, I hold them responsible  
               for his acts. If they choose to make an  
               office non-political that is political, and  
               put a man in that office, I hold that, according to true, sound political principles,
               
               the Government is answerable for the  
               acts of that man if he has done wrong ;
               
               otherwise, let that man be a political  
               officer, and alone be responsible
               for his  
               own acts when on the floors of the House.
               
               It is perfectly absurd to talk about Responsible Government, if we say the Government
               can appoint a man to an
               office  
               where such a large amount of money is  
               at stake, and that man becomes
               a defaulter, that the Government is not
               responsible.  
               There is no necessity for abolishing this  
               office, for the Government cannot show  
               that there will be any saving in money to  
               this Province to justify them in
               throwing  
               to the winds an office that is so much  
               needed at present, when there is
               such an  
               amount of money passing through the  
               Province. You allow every man in
               this  
               country, Nova Scotia, Canada and Great  
               Britain to issue money orders, and give  
               them the guarantee that they have got
               the  
               Government responsible, and where is it  
               when the head of the department is a
               
               non-political officer? If you do what is  
               right now you will abolish your money 
               orders, unless you tell the people that 
               they issue those money
               orders under a  
               man who is not responsible. [ 
Mr. Smith.  
               —There
               is no political office of this kind
               
               in Nova
               Scotia.]
               We have nothing to  
               
               
               
               
               DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 109
               
               do with Nova Scotia or Canada ; we will  
               act for ourselves, and in our acts we  
               should show we are willing to keep public  
               faith with those abroad as well
               as with  
               those at home. I ask the members
               of the  
               House how they can—with the issue of  
               these money orders—sustain abroad the  
               integrity they ought to sustain in regard  
               to them ? They cannot. I have
               expressed my views, and I must confess, if they
               
               had established a new dynasty, a
               new regime, propounded a new system of
               Government, they might have adopted
               a different system from what they have now ;  
               but when they have a system of Responsible Government in operation, whether it  
               is for weal or woe, we are bound to carry  
               out that principle of responsibility
               in all  
               our actions. It is something extraordinary  
               if thirty-six members are afraid of some  
               three or four Generals. I am not afraid  
               of them, and I doubt whether any
               member of the House is. If they bring forward any measure that the other members 
               
               of the House feels is inimical to the interests of the country, they cannot get
               it  
               to pass with all their acuteness and
               generalship, even if they had a majority of  
               one. If we had truth and justice
               on our  
               side, I should feel that " he is thrice  
               armed whose quarrel is just."
               I do not  
               care how many Generals there are
               on the 
               floors of the House ; if the
               principles of- 
               responsible and departmental Government  
               are true, there are no offices
               but what the  
               head officer should be a political one.  
               These are the political views I entertain  
               in regard to responsible and departmental  
               Government. So long as I entertain  
               these views, I cannot vote for a Bill that  
               will place the head of so
               important a department as the Post Office where he  
               cannot be called to account.  
               
 
            
            
            C. CONNELL.
            
            
            Now, those gentlemen having made a 
               statement affecting my reputation, I think 
               some explanation is due from them. 
               
            
            
            
            
               
               
               
               THE
                  CORRESPONDENCE CONCERNING THE 
                  PROPOSED INTERCOLONIAL UNION 
                  
               
               
               
                Mr. CUDLIP.—I see by the
                  last mail  
                  fiom England that this question, although  
                  decided by the people of this Province legitimately at the polls, is still being
                  agitated in England. It has been boldly stated by various parties
                  there,
                  that the election In New Brunswick was not
                  the true  
                  exponent of public opinion, and that there  
                  had been a reaction since the election had  
                  been held, and there Would now be a majority in favour of the Scheme, that taking
                  
                  out two constituencies
                  the present position  
                  would have been reversed. The whole Go
vernment has been carried on by one or two  
                  constituencies, the late
                  Government had a  
                  majority of four or five, and without
                  the  
                  support of St. John they would not have  
                  been in existence ; therefore
                  they had not  
                  the confidence of the country. We cannot have one rule to apply to one case and  
                  one to another. It is said the question
                  
                  was tried on false issues: that many voted  
                  against the Scheme for the purpose of  
                  turning out those in power. The same  
                  argument can be used on the other
                  side.  
                  I have known men who voted the anti-
                  
                  Confederate ticket in the County, yet in 
                  consideration of a feeling of regard for 
                  Mr.Tilley they voted in favour
                  of the  
                  Scheme in the City ; and if ever there was  
                  a true exposition of public opinion, it was  
                  on that question. The Union between  
                  England and Scotland, and also
                  between  
                  England
                  and Ireland was carried by bribery. It is said false statements are circulated In
                  England bv the
                  Canadian delegation, to induce them to legislate for us  
                  in regard to this Intercolonial Union. If  
                  there is anything of that kind in contemplation, they had better pause before they
                  
                  attempt it, for we would resist coercion  
                  whether it was brought against
                  us directly or indirectly. I think it would be a  
                  prudent
                  course to send a delegation home  
                  to correct those false
                  representations, and  
                  have therefore prepared the
                  following resolutions, and will now move that
                  they be  
                  adopted :-  
                  
 
               
               
               
               
                  
                  
                  " Whereas, the House in a Committee  
                     of the Whole had under consideration  
                     the resolutions of the Conference held  
                     at Quebec on the 10th day of October
                     
                     last, on subject of the
                     proposed  
                     Confederation of the British North American Colonies."  
                     
                  
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas,
                     it is the opinion of this  House that the consummation of said  
                     Scheme would prove politically, commercially, and financially disastrous
                     to the  
                     best interests and prosperity of this Province;"  
                     
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas, the loyalty and attachment of the people of this Province to the 
                     
                     Throne and Government of Great Britain  
                     cannot be justly impunged,
                     and they have 
                     always manifested a desire to maintain  
                     their connection with the Mother Country, and to remain a portion of the British 
                     
                     Empire;" 
                     
                  
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas,
                     in the exercise of the  
                     right of internal self-Government enjoyed
                     
                     by this Province, its people are entitled to  
                     deliberate and decide upon all
                     questions  
                     affecting their own local interests in such  
                     manner as to them may seem best
                     calculated to promote their prosperity and welfare;" 
                     
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas,
                     the General Assembly 
                     of this Province was, in the month of February last, dissolved by His
                     Excellency  
                     the Lieutenant Governor avowedly to obtain the decision of the people upon the  
                     resolutions adopted at the Conference
                     
                     and now before this House;"  
                     
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas,
                     at the elections consequently holden the people of this Province clearly and unequivocally
                     pronounced a judgment adverse to the adoption of  
                     the said resolutions;"  
                     
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas, this House confidentially believes that Her Majesty's Government will
                     receive with due attention the  
                     expression of opinion of this Province so  
                     pronounced;" 
                     
                  
                  
                   " And Whereas, this House has reason  
                     to fear Her-Majesty's Government are but  
                     imperfectly aware of the true state
                     of the  
                     feelings of the people of this Province
                     on  
                     this subject;"  
                     
                  
                  
                   " Therefore Resolved, as the opinion of  
                     this House, that a delegation should at  
                     
                     
                     
                     110 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
                     
                     once
                     proceed to England for the purpose 
                     of making known to the Imperial
                     Government the views and feelings of this House  
                     and the people of this Province
                     on this  
                     important subject."  
                     
                     
                   
               
               
               
               
                Mr. MCMILLAN —A
                  resolution of so   
                  much importance should be fully explained by the members of the Government, as 
                  I imagine it was brought in with their 
                  cognizance. The first proposition say 
                  that is the opinion of this
                  House that the  
                  consummation
                  of this Union would prove  
                  politically, commercially and financially   
                  disastrous. I for one have strong
                  feelings in favour of this Union,
                  and entirely  
                  dissent from this proposition. Every one 
                  knows that political Union is strength.  
                  do not believe that to unite these British 
                  North American Colonies under one rule  
                  would be a political injury to them. neither do I believe the people of
                  the country  
                  think so. I do not believe that the
                  people 
                  are prepared to say that it will be commercially injurious to them to have a free
                  
                  intercourse in all articles and
                  manufactures between the Provinces, setting aside  
                  the barriers of the Custom House. I  
                  should like to hear the hon. mover show  
                  us how it is going to be politically,
                  financially and commercially
                  disastrous, and  
                  how the country is going to suffer by it. 
                  
 
               
               
               
                Mr. CUDLIP.—I
                  do not intend to shirk  
                  the question, for I want it to be thorough  
                  ly discussed, and I should like to see some  
                  of the leading members of the
                  House  
                  take it up.  
                  
 
               
               
                Hon. Mr.
                     SMITH —I thought the ex-  
                  Surveyor General would feel it his duty to  
                  justify the course he has taken on this  
                  Union, and would have been
                  prepared to  
                  show wherein it would have been advantageous; having done that, I
                  think he  
                  did find plenty of hon. members on the  
                  other side to meet any
                  arguments which  
                  he may advance.  
                  
 
               
               
               
                Mr. COSTIGAN.—I
                  have heard, and the  
                  people of this Province believe, that influences are at work to endeavour to force
                  
                  this Union upon us; that representations  
                  are made in England that we are a people  
                  disloyal, and do not wish to do our share  
                  of whatever is necessary to maintain the  
                  connection between them and the British  
                  Government. It is our duty to
                  protect  
                  that character of loyalty by sending a  
                  delegation to correct those false representations. The ex-Surveyor General has  
                  stated that the first part of the resolution  
                  is not correct, in stating that this Union  
                  would be injurious to the people of this 
                  Province. There are many hon. gentlemen 
                  in this House better qualified to show 
                  wherein that Union would have been injurious, and the necessity for this resolution;
                  but I wish to say a few words in 
                  order to show the disadvantages and ruin 
                  it would bring upon this Province. It 
                  does not require a masterly mind to see it. 
                  It has been said that Union is strength, 
                  but it would not be so in this case. The 
                  more the people became acquainted with 
                  the Scheme, the more they opposed it 
                  The opponents of the Scheme had to contend with many disadvantages. I contend that
                  when the people defeat a Scheme 
                  proposed by the Government in power, it 
                  is a sure sign that they have a two-third 
                  majority of the people of the country, because the Government by their position 
                  have an influence upon the country, and 
                  there is not a locality but what feels this 
                  influence, because there is a sympathy existing between the Government and the 
                  office holders in the country which leads 
                  them to adopt their measures when they 
                  otherwise would not ; many of those who 
                  advocated the Scheme of Confederation 
                  did not know what the conditions of the 
                  
                  
 
                  
                  Scheme were, but because the Government proposed it they were bound to 
                  carry it out. I know this to be a fact, 
                  that many who took an active part against 
                  Confederation could not explain how it 
                  was to be carried out. We were three 
                  distinct people, but were to be governed 
                  by one general Government, and that was 
                  to be carried on by a majority vote; that 
                  majority was to rule the country and tax 
                  the people as they saw fit. According to 
                  the construction of Government we would 
                  be represented by fifteen representatives, 
                  and these would have to fight against 145.  
                  Although I might have much respect for 
                  the ability of our representatives, yet I 
                  would not have much reason to expect 
                  that they would have much success in 
                  anything they undertook for the benefit of 
                  the Province. Then the question of the 
                  Intercolonial Railway was brought up, 
                  and it was said under Confederation we 
                  could have the Railway wherever we 
                  wished it ; but my opinion is, that if the 
                  people of Canada really desire the railway, the same facilities for building the 
                  road exist without Confederation as with 
                  it. There was no guarantee that we would 
                  have this railroad under Confederation; it 
                  might grow out of the Scheme, and it 
                  might not. I was said that the general 
                  revenues could not expended in the 
                  construction of the Canal system, as that 
                  was guarded against by a resolution of 
                  the Conference, which said that this work 
                  should be prosecuted so soon as the finances of the country permitted. Who was 
                  to decide when the state of the finances 
                  would permit it to be built? The general 
                  Government of Canada ; and they would 
                  not object to have the work go on immediately if they had Confederation, because 
                  they would have an additional inducement 
                  to extend them when they drag in those 
                  three Lower Provinces to bear their proportion of this great work. This was one 
                  of the grand reasons which induced the 
                  Canadians to advocate Confederation. 
                  They were involved in difficulties in regard to the Union with Lower Canada and 
                  in regard to their finances, and they really required an additional field—not for
                  
                  public expenditure in improvements—but 
                  an additional field for taxation and revenue ; that was the reason why they were 
                  so anxious to secure the Union of these 
                  Colonies. The Canadians would have no 
                  reason to complain if they were taxed, 
                  because it would be expended and circulated among themselves, and would bear 
                  upon the people of this country, because 
                  they would have to pay this money which 
                  would never be returned again. It was 
                  said that the Government to each Province should have a certain sum to expend for
                  local purposes ; this was true 
                  enough, we had to provide for our own 
                  local expenditure, and so had the other 
                  Provinces except Canada, who had the 
                  additional advantage of having the general 
                  revenue expended on her public works, 
                  and it, therefore, became local expenditure, and we would have to pay for that 
                  from which we would derive no benefit. 
                  Now, in regard to representation by 
                  population. There is one Section of the 
                  Scheme which provides for the readjustment of the representation by population 
                  every ten years. In such readjustment 
                  Lower Canada is always to be assigned 
                  sixty-five members, and each of the other 
                  Provinces shall have the same number of 
                  members to which it will be entitled on 
                  the same ratio of representation as Lower 
                  Canada will then have. According to 
                  that in a few years, taking the increase of 
                  population according to the past as the
                  
                  
                  
                  nearest criterion to judge by, the representatives of Upper Canada in seventeen  
                  years would out-vote the whole of the  
                  other Provinces. It has been argued that  
                  if we had Confederation it would make a  
                  great change, and we would become a  
                  great country for capitalists, and emigrants would be induced to come here.  
                  Would it change the course of our rivers  
                  and give more facilities to manufacturers
                  ? 
                  The only change it would make would be 
                  to place at the disposal of the General  
                  Government in Canada the whole resources of the Colonies, and emigration would  
                  tend to that part of the
                  Confederation, for  
                  we would be removed from any
                  benefit  
                  arising from the construction of
                  public  
                  works. I believe that there is reason for  
                  making the assertion that influences are  
                  brought to bear abroad to place the people of this Province and the Government  
                  of the day in a wrong position. It is asserted by those who are very anxious  
                  about the Confederation scheme, that the  
                  Government of the day is merely
                  called  
                  into its present position by accident. I  
                  contend that if those who are favourable  
                  to Confederation wish to see the present  
                  Government
                  retire from their present  
                  position, they had better say
                  nothing  
                  about Confederation, for so long as the  
                  people of the country are reminded of the  
                  Scheme, just so long will they rally round  
                  those who defeated it.  
                  
 
               
               
               
               
               
                Mr. MCMILLAN.—I
                  should like to hear  
                  from the hon. mover of the Bill, as those  
                  resolutions for the appointment of Delegates was not named when it was proposed that
                  this subject should be the order of the day; therefore, I
                  think it  
                  would be unfair to decide this question at  so short a notice. If the Government of
                  
                  the day are desirous to have this delegation appointed, they should take
                  the responsibility of it, and not throw it upon  
                  the House. It will be recollected how  
                  some of the hon. members spoke
                  of the  
                  delegations of the late
                  Government, and  
                  now they are going to take the same  
                  course without taking the responsibility.
                  
                  ( 
Hon. Mr. Smith.—Those delegations  
                  were unauthorized.) They had the Imperial despatch of 1862 to authorize them ? 
                  Did they do anything to bind the House  
                  in consulting upon a great
                  question and  
                  submitting it to the country for their
                  decision ? They never claimed any right to 
                  force it upon the people. I do not wish  
                  to go into the discussion
                  to-day, as there  
                  has not been sufficient time given.  
                  
 
               
               
               
               
               
                Mr. CUDLIP.—I
                  do not desire that this  
                  resolution should be carried
                  without a discussion, because I wish to put
                  upon record the opinion of the country as expressed through their
                  representatives. I am  
                  bound to say that while I am opposed to  
                  those delegations as involving unnecessary expense, yet I now think it necessary,
                  
                  because this is a question affecting our  
                  whole political existence—affecting
                  the  
                  constitution of our country. It is a question upon which every person in the country
                  has a right to express his
                  opinion, and  
                  the people of the country have done so,
                  
                  and expressed an opinion, and I think
                  it  
                  now becomes the duty of their representatives to send a delegation to
                  England to  
                  protect their rights. The delegation
                  
                  which was appointed to confer
                  on a Union  
                  of the Maritime Provinces took upou themselves other duties which the Legislature
                  
                  had not assigned to them, and to avoid  
                  falling into the same error, we wish this  
                  delegation to be appointed by the representatives of the people. It is not right 
                  
                  that after the people of this country have  
                  expressed their opinion at the polls against  
                  Confederation,
                  that this agitation should  
                  
                  
                  
                  
 
                  
                  DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 111
                  
                  be kept up directly or indirectly as it
                  has  
                  been done. Statements have been
                  put  
                  forth by the press that we will have to  
                  come into this Confederation,
                  because i  
                  will be forced upon us We ought
                  to express an opinion in this House, and endorse that by a delegation confirming
                  that  
                  opinion that they never need hope to  
                  carry Confederation in New Brunswick,
                  
                  and I think we would save money in the  
                  end by so doing.  
                  
 
               
               
               
                Mr. MCMILLAN.—It
                  is amusing to find  
                  the Anti-Confederate patty asking for  
                  this expensive delegation in order to  
                  set themselves right before the people of  
                  England. It shows that they are
                  not  
                  satisfied with the position they
                  hold in  
                  the eyes of the English people
                  in reference to this question. What were the  
                  arguments put forth by the member
                  of  
                  the Government, and the leading members  
                  of the Anti-Confederate party in reference
                  
                  to the appropriation of money for the Militia ? They said it would be a waste of money
                  so far as defence was concerned, but 
                  they stood in an unfavorable position in 
                  the opinion of the British public, and to 
                  prove their loyalty they voted the people's money for this purpose. They are 
                  not satisfied with asserting that two 
                  thirds of the people are against Confederation, but it becomes necessary to appoint
                  another delegation to make known 
                  the fact, for they feel they are not in a 
                  right position before the British public. 
                  The hon. member for Victoria (Mr. Costigan) said that the more the people discussed
                  this question the more unpopular 
                  it would become. My experience is 
                  right the reverse of this ; the question 
                  came upon them so suddenly, and so 
                  few months elapsed before they were required to vote at the polls, that they had 
                  not time enough to form a correct opinion upon the subject, and the general 
                  tendency of the people, when they do 
                  not understand a question, is to vote 
                  against any change until they do understand it. If that question was submitted 
                  to the people to-morrow, and the people 
                  were required to deposit their votes in 
                  the ballot box, either for or against it, 
                  two thirds of the people in the Province 
                  of New Brunswick would vote in favor 
                  of it. 
                  
 
               
               
               
                Mr.
                     NEEDHAM.—The hon ex-Surveyor 
                  General wants to know how this scheme 
                  would ruin us, politically. What would 
                  we have been had Confederation taken 
                  place under this scheme ? Would we 
                  have been a Province? certainly not. 
                  O, it is said we can have a local legislature ; so we could, and its powers would
                  
                  be confined to making laws to prevent 
                  cows from running on the commons, 
                  providing that sheep shall wear bells, 
                  and to issue tavern licences. Hon. members may talk about their loyalty and disloyalty.
                  I would like to ask some of the 
                  members of the late Government whether 
                  their idea was not this—that they would 
                  not have gone for Confederation if they 
                  had not believed that it was the first step 
                  towards the independence of New Brunswick. ( 
Mr. McMillan —it is not true.) 
                  I have no hesitation in saying that thousands of men believed in Confederation, 
                  honestly and sincerely, but they do not 
                  seem willing to give us any credit for 
                  sincerity ; they think they have all the 
                  argument, all the honesty and all the 
                  loyalty. We have now a direct communication with the Home Government, 
                  as they appoint our Governor ; but if we 
                  go into Confederation our Governor 
                  would be appointed by the Governor 
                  General ; that would raise our dignity 
                  very much, to have a local Governor 
                  
                  
                  
                  appointed by the Governor General ; 
                  would not that be derogatory to our political standing, both at home and 
                  abroad. I heard a Judge, in addressing 
                  a Grand Jury, in the County of York, 
                  strive to impress upon their minds the 
                  necessity for this " Great British Nationality as he termed it. 
Great British  
                     Humbug! I should like to know
                  where  
                  there is any nationality in this Confederation scheme that we have not got  
                  now. We are "
par excellence"
                  Bluenoses ; those born in Ireland are
                  Irishmen, in Bath Englishmen, in Wales  
                  Welshmen, but we are all British
                  subjects. Are not we British subjects
                  as  
                  much as if we were born "
                  Cockneys."  
                  We have the real British nationality, and  
                  because we did not want any
                  other we  
                  rejected the great 
Botheration or Confederation scheme, for it all amounts to
                  the  
                  same thing ; thus it is that so
                  far as politics are concerned we are not going to  
                  gain anything. I will now allow you that  
                  it will be financially disastrous. We will  
                  have to give
                  up all our revenues to Canada, and they will only refund $201,000;. 
                  (Mr. McMillan, will not they assume   
                  our
                  debts.) We. are prepared to assume  
                  
 
               
               
                our own debts.
                  Canada has to borrow  
                  money
                  to pay the interest on her own  
                  debts, and then wants to assume
                  ours.  
                  It is
                  like a bankrupt wanting to assume  
                  the debts of a rich man. The General  
                  Government will give us
                  $201,000 a year  
                  for all time to come. That is, financially, the position we are in. No matter
                  how much
                  the population may increase in
                  twenty years, or how many  
                  new  roads,
                  bridges or schools may be  
                  required in that time, we can
                  receive no  
                  more
                  than
                  that sum. If a man had a  
                  million dollars
                  a year, and he owed the  
                  sum
                  of five millions, and had plenty of  
                  friends
                  to back him, do you suppose he  
                  would want to make arrangements
                  with  
                  another
                  man to take his debt and give  
                  him just enough to live on until he died.  
                  If he would do that he would he
                  a fit  
                  subject for the Lunatic Asylum.
                  It was  
                  enough to condemn the scheme, that
                  
                  this
                  delegation assented to tho proposition that whatever arrangements
                  made  
                  between
                  Canada and the Home Government from that time
                  to the time Confederation
                  went into
                  operation should form  
                  part and parcel of the obligations to be  
                  assumed
                  by the General
                  Government.  
                  At
                  that very time England had said
                  to  
                  Canada—what are you prepared to do  
                  in
                  reference to your own defence ? Did  
                  she say that to New Brunswick, Nova  
                  Scotia or Prince Edward island ? No !  
                  Why ?
                  Because she knew from
                  the history of
                  the past that these colonies would  
                  when
                  the time arrived;
                  they would be  
                  ready at a moment's notice to
                  gather  
                  round the British flag; but there was a  
                  time
                  in the history
                  of Canada when it  
                  was otherwise,
                  and there was a necessity
                  for asking the question of Canada.  
                  At
                  that very time Canada sent home a  
                  delegation charged with a power to  
                  agree with the British
                  Government. to  
                  expend a million of money for
                  their defence, to be borne not only by  Canada,  
                  but
                  by all
                  that Confederation. There  
                  would
                  be a direct tax upon every man.  
                  woman and child
                  in this Province, to  
                  pay their proportion of that money.  
                  When I
                  saw that
                  agreement I felt as  
                  every
                  son of New Brunswick ought to
                  
                  feel,
                  that if it cost me my life, my
                  all.  
                  Confederation
                  should
                  never be carried  
                  if I could
                  help it. It has not come. I  
                  do not say I stopped it, but if I was but  
                  one little entering wedge I am satisfied
                  
                  for
                  the remainder of my life ; so far as  
                  
                   
                  
                  that is concerned I have done my duty,  
                  
                  and am sincere in my opposition, and it  
                  is a matter of moonshine whether they  
                  acknowledge it or not. Canada has
                  
                  sent home a delegation to influence the  
                  British people in favor of this Confederation. I do not say that this scheme is  
                  going to be forced upon us,
                  but they 
                  may pass a provisional Confederation 
                  Bill, but we do to not want that
                  or any  
                  thing to look like it. Forty-eight
                  thousand men in this Province have said we  
                  don't want Confederation, and
                  that  
                  should be an end of it. They have said 
                  this, notwithstanding
                  all the influences  
                  that have been brought to bear by the  
                  Government, telling them the
                  Inter-  
                  colonial railway was going past every  
                  man's door, whether he lived at Fredericton. Sussex, or the North Shore.  
                  Statesmen in framing a scheme of this  
                  kind should look forward to future
                  
                  ages. In this scheme of Confederation,  
                  fifty years hence, Upper Canada
                  would  
                  have a majority of thirty-five over
                  all the  
                  other Provinces. This is the position
                  
                  We would be in, and we are called to  
                  pay homage to the statesmen who framed
                  
                  this scheme, as though they possessed
                  
                  all the wisdom in the world. 
                  
               
               
               
               
               
                House
                  adjourned until 9 A. M., tomorrow.   
                  
               
               
                T. P. D.