134 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
MONDAY, June 5.
Mr. LANDRY.—I
did not intend to say a
word on this subject, and should
not do
so now but to reply to a statement put
forth by the hon. member for
Albert, (Mr.
McClellan) that the priests used their influence with the people to get them to
oppose
Confederation at the last elections.
I know that it was not so in Westmorland
at any rate, for there they took no part
whatever, either for or against. Some
great men from St. John came up round
our County, lecturing and talking
to the
people to get them to support the Scheme,
and they went on so that the
people
thought they were mad. It has been
said that if the question were to be submitted to the people again in six months
there would be a change. I think there
would be too, but the change would be
that there would be more opposed to the
measure than ever.
Mr. KERR.—A
great deal of time has
been taken up in this discussion,
and a
large amount of money lost to the country
by it. I thought that the country had
spoken out so loudly that Confederation
was not only dead but buried face downward, and so deep that, as the hon. member for
Charlotte said, it would not appear
again at least for a long time. It seems,
however, that it is not so from these resolutions, and the appointment of new delegates.
In Northumberland there were
seven candidates in the field ; six for Confederation and one against. I
conceived
at that time that from the threats made
against us by the neighbouring republic,
and the intimation that the protection of
the mother country would likely be withdrawn from us in care of difficulties arising,
that it was necessary we
should continue our united emerges to establish a
power in these Colonies whose influence
might be felt. Under these circumstances,
I was constrained to support a Scheme
that would not only thus unite us, but continue to us that powerful protection
that
we so much need. I have not changed
my opinions since then. I believe that
Canada is destined to be a great country ;
she already pays half a million of dollars
to support a line of Steam Ships to and
from England, and then look at the magnitude of her public works. It has
been
put forth by those opposed to Union that
she is heavily in debt ; there
is no doubt
of that, but then she has claims on the
different Railways and other works of
$40,000,000 or $50,000,000, and
the
amount really due her is more than the
interest on her whole debt. I believe that
both the evils and benefits that would
arise from a Union have been very much
exaggerated. Let us now come down
to
the Resolutions before us. Since Responsible Government was first established
here, we have never been called to deliberate on such a Resolution. I say there
has never been a case where the House
has been asked to appoint delegates to go
to England to lay before that people and
Government the position and
state of this
Province. Last Session delegates were
appointed to take into
consideration a
Union of the Maritime Provinces,
and a
few days ago the Hon. President of the
Council brought in a Resolution to continue those negociations ; but notwithstanding
the principle of the
Initiation of
money grants being entirely in the hands
of the Government, we now find a private
member of the House comes forward with
Resolutions which, if carried, involves
the expenditure of a large sum
of money,
we do not know how much. I say it is
against the principle established by this
House that a matter of this kind should
be taken out of the hands of
Government.
With regard to what has been said about
a
power to be brought to bear on
us to force
us into this Union, I do not
believe anything of the kind is
contemplated. England never did bring any power to bear
to force her dependencies or
colonies to
unite either with her or among themselves.
In Scotland the matter was left
entirely in
the hands of the Local Government, and
the same in Ireland ; no power
was brought
to bear upon them to force them to unite
with England.
Mr. KERR.—Neither Nova Scotia nor
Prince Edward Island, have appointed
delegates to go Home, and why should
we ? I do not believe that having conceded to us the power of self-Government,
the Imperial Parliament will compel us to
take any action with regard to Union that
is opposed to the wishes of the people. I
do not agree with the statement set forth
in the Resolution that a Union of these
Colonies would be politically, financially,
and commercially disastrous, neither do I
believe that having passed a Militia Bill
that it is necessary to send Home a delegation to show that we are willing to do
all we can to defend ourselves. As to our
loyalty, that is a truism which nobody
doubts, and therefore the delegates are not
needed to prove it. The seventh Section
of the preamble states that it is to be feared that the Government and people of
Great Britain are not aware of the true
state of feeling here on the question of
Confederation. If this is so, which I do
not for a moment believe, why cannot
they be informed without a delegation ?
Above all, however, why does the Governernment come to this House to ask our
sanction to the appointment ? When we
were sold to Jackson & Co. for ?90,000,
did the Government come to this House,
and on all the other delegations to Great
Britain, Canada, and elsewhere, did they
ask for sanction to appoint delegates? No,
this is the first time since the year 1833, that
such as course has been taken. Then, before the principle of Responsible Government
was recognized, and when a feeling
was going about that the people of these
Colonies were disloyal, Judge Street moved for a delegation to England to lay before
the British Government the true state
of feeling in this Province. But the present action is unprecedented—a private
member brings in a Government measure,
and to day the Hon. President of the
Council moves to take up the order of the
day. I believe that any course of action
taken by the whole Government by despatches would have more influence with
the Imperial Government than anything
which two delegates might be able to do
by going Home. And when I see that
anything which affects us must in like
manner affect the other Provinces, and
they have not appointed delegates, I do
not see why we should take such a step.
I shall therefore oppose the Resolutions.
Mr. LEWIS.—I believe that this Union
of the Provinces is a great Scheme, which
would result in great good to this Province. A great deal has been said and
written on the subject, it has been canvassed and recanvassed, it has been before
the people in every position in which
it could be represented, and the people
have spoken out upon it. I looked upon
it with great favor, for I believed that it
would tend to build us up and make us a
great people. The great want we have
always experienced was the absence of
great public works, and these a Union
would have given us. We wanted a Railroad running through the heart of our
country, opening up our wild lands, preparing the way for a system of colonization,
and connecting us directly with Canada, and this the Scheme would have
given to us on much better terms than we
can get it without. I believed also that
it would be the means of promoting and
fostering our manufactories. It has been
said that we cannot manufacture for Canada ; but if our infant manufactories were
encouraged, and a field opened up for the
produce of them in the other Provinces,
we should soon be able to compete with
any other country. It has been said that
DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 135
this Scheme was got up for the purpose ofs
making some of our great
gentlemen Governors of these Provinces. Well I think
that a praiseworthy object. (Laughter.)
The Hon. President of the Council may
laugh, but I believe that he would do
honor to such a position. We should not
be any the less loyal, because we had a
few
of our leading me in such offices,
and the Governor General would still be
the tie binding us to the mother country.
With regard to the elections in Albert, I
may say that the question turned
exclusively on Confederation. There were
some discontented spirits who came
among us to stir up strife, but
they did
not do much. There wero seven candidates in the field, and five of them were
Confederates, and out of the 1,350 votes,
about 600 were cast for
Confederation.
But that question is dead the
present,
and I now come here to do my duty as a
representative of the country, and if
this
Government introduce measures that I
conceive to be beneficial, I shall support
them. With regard to the Resolutions
now before us, I believe that it is known
in England just as well as it is here, that
Confederation is gone, and they also know
that we are, and always have been, a
loyal people, and there is therefore no necessity to send Home hon. gentlemen just
to flourish round through England, and
over the continent for no real good. I
think it would be much better to take the
money that will be thus expended, and put
it on the bye-roads of the Province. I
am opposed to the Resolutions.
Mr. McMILLAN —Before the debate
closes I wish to offer a few remarks in addition to what I have already said : In
the County of Restigouche notwithstanding that Confederation was gone, and the
leading members of the Government were
overthrown before the election came off,
yet the people cast their votes in favor
of that Scheme. No Anti-Candidate need
offer for that County. I may say that I
feel under some difficulties in addressing
the House again on this subject ; it is
well-known that I have occupied more time
this Session than ever I did before, and I
have been forced to it by the fact that the
hon. member for Sunbury and myself, are
the only members of the late Government
now left on the floors of this House. I
shall, however, glance at the arguments
which have been brought by those opposed to this Scheme. And first in reply to
the hon. member for the County of Saint
John (Mr. Anglin). He has made use of
strong language in reference to the Chamber of Commerce ; has said they were
moved by some " hidden hand," and that
falsehood and misrepresentation has been
the order of the day. This " hidden hand"
has come to be a familiar term, yet it
seems to be a ghost to the present Government, that frightens and terrifies them,
and if they could by any possibility lay it
as low, and bury it as deep as the hon
member for Charlotte would have Confederation buried, yet it would rise to appal them.
But I am happy to state that
that hand is still under the control of a mind,
and a grasp of intellect that has a power
to make his opponents afraid and tremble.
The dissolution of the House has been
characterized as cruelty and oppression ;
it might, certainly, appear like tyranny
to those who did not wish to appeal to the
people, but not to the people themselves.
True, the season of the year was inclement, but then it took none of the people
from their duties ; and that it was not felt
to be oppressive is clear from the fact that
a larger vote was polled than ever before.
Next is the Canadian tariff as compared
with ours ; there it is 20 per cent,
whilst
here it is only 15, and it is argued that
we should have to come up to them. We
admit 32 articles free of duty, and Canada
44, and this, it is affirmed, would lower
our revenue. But the way to arrive at a
just conclusion on this point is to take
the imports of the two countries and
compare them, and we shall then find that
whereas in Canada in 1863 it was 11 per
cent., in New Brunswick it was 10 1.8 per
cent. ; why then frighten the people with
the cry of the tremendous difference in the
tariff. Another point : it was said that
the difference in 1863, if we had been in
Confederation, would have been $250,000,
and he said Mr. Tilley had made it
$211,000.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN.—Mr. Tilley said we
could abandon our use of brandy and
spirits and save the duty on these ; we
could save 10 cents a pound on tobacco
by manufacturing it here, and in this way
he tried to make up the amount ; but I
challenge the hon. ex-Surveyor General
to take the free list of Canada and make
up anything like an amount equal to the
$250,000.
Mr. MCMILLAN.—I do not think that
is the right way to take it. I think the
proper plan is to average the imports of
the two Provinces. Canada has so far
advanced that she can support her local
manufactures and save importation to a
large extent, and this is an argument in
favor of Union, as we should go on with
her and be able to support our manufactories, and get an increase of customers.
While I am not prepared to say that our
local expenditure would not be increased,
I do not believe they would increase to
to the extent that has been said. The
general government would have to deal
with general and large matters, and the
time occupied in their discussion would
be shorter than now, and the same in the
local legislatures, where they would only
discuss local matters ; and, while the expense would be, perhaps, somewhat increased,
a great saving would be made in
the time occupied in Session. It has been
said that under Confederation we should
dwindle down to a mere municipality, yet
this Session only two measures have come
before us—the Treasury Note Bill and the
Post Office Bill—that would not be discussed in the local legislature. But,
it is asked, who would come here
as a representation under Confederation? I reply that our young men
of intellect and power would come here
to obtain a political education, to fit
them for positions in the General Government, and for a Governorship of the
Colonies. It is a high and a grand principle of ambition implanted in the human heart
and soul that would animate
our young men to raise themselves to
positions of rank and power. The hon.
member for St. John further said that
the 80 cents a head was a high sum for
Canada to receive, but small for New
Brunswick. I do not understand how
this can be. I ask if ten years ago we
did not get more for local purposes than
we do now? Yes, and why? Because we have paid out large sums for
our great public works, and therefore
have not the money for local purposes.
But under Confederation we should receive 80 cents a head for all time to come
to add to our revenue for these works.
And then there is the question of taxation. Out of Confederation what are
we to do ? In a few days we are to have
up the resolutions relative to the Western Extension, and for that purpose shall
be called on to vote $260,000 or $270,
000 to commence the work, and if this
be done how are the appropriations for
schools, roads, bridges, to be upheld but
by direct taxation. There will be no 80
cents a head to fall back upon. It is as
clear as noonday that if we are to have
direct taxation it would be farther off,
at least in union, than out of it. Then
for militia purposes we should have
$1,000,000, and it is said that this is
nothing at all. Then, I would ask,
what is the $30,000 we granted the other
day, for us separated, and a fragment as now ; but united under one
power, one interest, animated by one
common feeling I believe that $1,000,000 would be something. Our proportion of that
sum would be $70,000, more
than double what we now give. How
then can it be said that $1,000,000 is so
small? It is not expected by the British
Government that we are to do all toward our own defence. They do not
look for it, and it is but right and manly
and independent that we should contribute something. What does the Colonial Secretary
say in his despatches :
he hopes that operations can be carried
on without imposing a tax upon the people ; shewing that the British Government do
not wish to saddle the country
with more than we are able to bear.
The hon. President of the Council has
referred to the difference in race and
creed in the people of Canada. I will
quote on this subject an extract from one
of the most eloquent men on this continent, Mr. D'A. McGee :
" I venture, in the first place, to observe that there seems to be a good deal
of exaggeration on the subject of race,
occasionally introduced both on the one
side and the other in this section of our
country. This theory of race is sometimes carried to an anti-christian and
unphilosophical excess. Whose words
are those—" God hath made of one
blood all the nations that dwell on the
face of the earth."
This is the right view to take of this
question. Look at the position of affairs
in the Mother Country ; there they are
composed of all peoples, and yet they go
on quietly and harmoniously. Then another point taken up is our trifling trade
with Canada. Why, the same cry was
raised in Canada ; there it was said that
the Lower Provinces were so poor that
they were not worth the expense that
would be incurred by Canada. The
Hon. Mr. Brown says:
" I hold in my hand a return of articles purchased by the Maritime Provinces from
the United States in 1863,
which Canada could have supplied. I
will not detain the House by reading it,
but any member who desires can have
it for examination. The total value of
products which the Lower Provinces
might have bought more advantageously from us, summer up to over seven
millions of dollars."
It is the want of direct trade that makes
the hard feelings, and if these were
broken down we should be much better
off. Then the Hon. Mr. Ferrier shows
what the Inter-colonial railroad would
do that a trade in produce would spring
up, and a large traffic would pass over
it every day in the year. He shows that
we import from the United States $2,000,000 worth more produce than we export
there. If we had this road we should
bring direct from Canada, whereas now
136 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
we bring
a large amount of the articles
we use down from Canada to
Portland,
thence by boat to St. John, and
then by
rail and boat again almost up to
Canada
again. How much cheaper and better
would it be to bring the articles direct.
Then it has been said that the
railroad
would be of little good for the
purpose
of defence. This is the first time I have
heard such a statement put
forth, and I
think that all experience is opposed
to
such an idea. I regret to hear it used
as an argument against this union that
we should be dragged up to Canada to
fight her battles. I think it a very narrow and contracted view to take of the
question. Is it not our duty, as British
subjects, if the enemy's foot is
planted
at Niagara or in Nova Scotia, to march
to the assistance of our
neighbors in
their troubles. Again it has been said
that an effort will made to force us
into Confederation. This would be direct violation of that principle of self-
government which has been
accorded
to us. Why then put it abroad
that the
British Government will try and coerce
us into a union against our
wishes? I
feel that it is my duty to raise
my voice,
feeble though it may be, to contradict
any such statement, inasmuch as we
have the despatch of the Colonial Secretary, in which it is emphatically
stated
that it cannot be. Then the hon. member of the Government for St.
John
(Mr. Anglin) insinuates that the Government have received some information that a
delegation is necessary to
counteract the action of schemers, conspirators, and so forth. Why not
then lay the information before the-
House? I think such remarks are
entirely uncalled for, and at any
rate should not come from such a
source.
It is said that the leaders of Confederation were animated by feelings of selfishness
in their action ; but
are not the
opponents of the scheme as liable
to the
same charge? The hon. President
of the
Council said that Mr. Tilley had changed. Is he not as open to such
an intimation as any other man in this Province?
Does he undertake to say that
all political honesty is concentrated: in
Dorchester Corner? I do not say Confederation
will come in six months or in two years,
but I believe it will come. If the principle of isolation and stagnation which
is now upheld be a correct one, how is
it that the United States has spent so
much treasure and spilt so much blood
to preserve their union? If it is a true
principle then must we charge them with
folly after eighty years' experience, and
having grown to a people numbering
some of 30,000,000 ; and with consummate
ignorance in doing what they have to
save a Union which we pronounce to be
politically, commercially, and financially
disastrous. The President of the Council goes on to say that we cannot find a
parallel for the action taken by us. Supposing we had done as they did in Canada,
then we might be charged whit
striving to force the measure upon the
people, but we never attempted anything
of the kind.
HON. MR. SMITH.—I said that there
was no parallel in history where men
without any authority from the people
attempted to render up the independence
of the country.
MR. MCMILLAN.—In the point of indepence I cannot agree with him. But
does he lay it down that we should not
meet and mature plans for the benefit
of the people? And if this be done can
we be charged with forcing any measures
upon the people? It seems to me a
strange coincidence that in the counties
of York and St. John where the officers
were opposed to the scheme that the
elections were appointed to come off
first. The hon. President further says
that according to the amount given to
roads and bridges in Canada we should
only get $15,000 for the same
purpose.
This was met and answered by Mr.
Steadman at Salisbury, but I will show
that by the eighty cents a head arrangement we should get more.
LOCAL
INCOME FOR NEW
BRUNSWICK IN
CONFEDERATION
| Subsidy from General Gov't, |
$201,600 |
| Export Duty and Council
Revenue, |
90,000 |
| Supreme Court Fees, |
4,600 |
| Auction Duties, |
800 |
| Interest on difference between real debt and
assumed
debt, |
65,000 |
|
$361,800 |
| In case the debt is increased
to the amount assumed
then we get $63,000 for
ten years. |
|
| Civil list, |
$30,000 |
| Legislative expense, |
30,000 |
| Fisheries, |
700 |
| Agriculture, |
10,000 |
| Penitentiary, |
6,000 |
| Lunatic Asylum, |
16,000 |
| Public Health, |
4,800 |
| Pensions, |
1,000 |
| Judicial expense, |
8,800 |
| Emigration, |
1,000 |
| Unforseen expense, |
2,000 |
|
$109,300 109,300 |
| Balance left for our Schools,
Roads and Bridges, |
$251,500 |
This
is a much larger sum than we
have given this year, but in
reality we
have nothing to do with what Canada
does ; she can use her 80 cents a head as
she likes. The next point is the debt of
Canada. He says that she has exhausted all her means and had to fall back
upon the stamp duties. Here is a financial statement of Canada. (Mr. McMilan here
read the tables which already
appear in the speech of Mr. Connell, to
shew the comparative position of the
two countries. The debt of Canada,
per head, is ther given as $20.93 ;
whilst that of New Brunswick. per head,
is $20.91.)
This is
their indebtedness per head,
with their immense resources, only two
cents per head difference between them
and us. The hon. President of the
Council says there is one railway that is
going to pay six per cent. I heard him
make a very different statement some
time ago. Then he remarked that every
passenger that went over that line cost
the country $20. I say this just to show
that he too changes.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—I never said that
one railway would not pay six per cent.
20 year hence.
Mr. MCMILLAN.—I will now give the
opinion of a celebrated Anti in Canada
on the railway. The Hon. Mr. Rierson
says :—
"Why, this Intercolonial Railway is to
be built out of the funds of the Intercolonial Government that is proposed to
be established, so that instead of Canada
having to pay only five-twelfths of the
whole cost she will have to pay ten-
twelfths. This will involve five to seven
millions of dollars of an expense more
than we had any occasion for incurring,
for the other Provinces were all willing
to have been responsible for the rest,
and there is very good reason
why they
should. The countries to be benefited
by the Intercolonial Railway are New
Brunswick and Nova Scotia, but especially the former. In that Province there
is an extensive wilderness with
some
valuable lumber limits if not much
farming land through which this road
will have to pass and every acre of land within twenty or thirty miles of the
Road will be largely increased in value.
New Brunswick would gain that advantage, while as for Nova Scotia,
Halifax,
its chief port, will be made an outlet by
the construction of the line and
will of
course be largely benefited, so that they
equitable. But in coming down with a
scheme which involves us in twice as
great an expenditure as was formerlyÂ
contemplated, they seem not to have
been satisfied unless we handed over to
the Federal Government our public
works. These, hon. gentlemen, are
of
immense value to Canada. By imposing
tolls on our canals to an extent which
they would easily bear and which would
not prevent us carrying on the same
immense trade as at present, we could
readily raise half a million of dollars a
year. The Welland Canal alone has
produced a revenue of $200,000 a year
Well, all such sources of income are to
be thrown into the hands of the Federal
Government, while New Brunswick is
to give us a Railway which only pays
three-eighths of one per cent.
over its working expenses. This small sum, remember too, is what is paid now — two
or three years after the construction of
the line. But when the rolling stock
get out of repairs, the rails want renewing, and other matters usual
after a
railroad has been some time working
have to be attended to. The expenses
of this line to the Federal Government
will constantly increase. The road will
be a drag, and I say to hon. gentlemen
we are opening an account without
knowing when it will be closed. By engaging in the construction of the Inter-
colonial Railway and the assumption of
the New Brunswick and Nova Scotia
lines, we are entering upon undefinite
liabilities., the whole being non-paying
property in which we shall find a heavy
bill of expense.
Then, if not satisfied with this, we are
giving a sort of Regium donum of $63000 for ten years to the Province of New
Brunswick."
If I recollect well the President of the
Council made use of the same argument
in 1863, with regard to the payment of
Railways as this gentleman does. It is
clearly evident that they think they are
giving us a much better bargain than they
gain. I wish to put a question to the
Hon. Chief Commissioner of the Board of
Works, and I am sure he will answer it.
All manner of insinuations have been
thrown out that the leader of the late Government intended to force the question
through the House ; I now ask him
if when the question was asked, "What was to be
done" he did not reply, "That is
left
to each Government to decide ?" Â
Hon Mr. HATHEWAY.—The
reply of the
Provincial Secretary was most decidedly. It was on the 16th of November
that
he told us, and Mr. Fisher, Mr. Galt, Mr.
DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 137
Cartier. and Dr. Tupper, made a similar
statement in their respective Provinces.Â
Mr. MCMILLAN.—A compliment has
been paid to me by the statement that
when the matter came before the Council
I was the one to stand out against its not
being submitted to the people.
But I
now state that there was not a dissenting
voice in the whole Council. The
Hon
Chief Commissioner has said that
when
he was in Canada he found that
they
would not agree that the Intercolonial
Railroad should go by any other route
than by the North Shore, and that this
was decided in Nova Scotia and in
England.
Hon. Mr. HATHEWAY —While
in Canada, I heard that the Duke of Newcastle
had told Mr. Tilley that no line
would go
within 15 miles of the river Saint John.
as i was not considered safe in
case of
difficulties with the United States.
Mr. MCMILLAN.—I never knew that
any particular route was decided on ; I
thought it was to be left to England to
decide. I wished, very naturally, that it
should go by the North Shore ; but I did
not know it was settled on. Then, it is
said, there were a good many disappointed
politicians who expected to go to Ottawa ;
but I will not say anything about that.
Now for the hon. member for St. John
(Mr. Wetmore): he delivered a speech
that, from the style of its delivery and its
beautifully rounded periods, must have
been thoroughly prepared. If unuendo,
if the imputing of all manner of motives,
are arguments against Confederation, then
his speech is unanswerable ; but if the
points are that Confederation is commerciall, financially and politically disastrous.
then his speech is a great failure. He
took up the Coles' Island Bridge, Mr.
Watters' election as Mayor of St. John,
and how the would-be Mayor was caught
in a trap, and money interests at elections;
what have these to do with Confederation?
But another point that he seemed to
imagine was most convincing was the export duty from Canada. It appeared to be
very funny, but it had little to do with the
question before us. I will now only make
a few general remarks in conclusion. I
have referred to the history and experience of the United States, and the efforts
they have put out to sustain their union,
but we, in our wisdom and with our population of 250,000, repudiate any such
idea as union. Instead of bringing a
charge against our public men, that they
aspire to be Governors of Provinces and
are actuated only by selfish and wrong
motives, the idea ought to be fostered
and encouraged. This charge came first
from the hon. President of the Council,
and it has been echoed by his satellites
all over the country ; but it should not
have any influence in such a question as
this. Then what has the Government
now to depend on to raise the resources
of the country—what is there but lumber
to depend on ? But in Confederation we
should not be so dependent as now ; if
lumber fails, we could fall back on the
crops of Canada, and the Provincial Secretary would not have the difficulty he
now experiences in making up his budget.
I feel that I am not able for this great
matter ; but, having been associated with
a man who, although charged with being
a "conspirator" and as using a " hidden
hand" to work out his designs, has yet
an intellect and financial abilities that
would fit him for a high position and do
honor to any land, I feel called on to speak
out in his behalf. It may be said that
those in favor of this scheme are subject
to "cramming," but that is not likely to
deter me from my purpose. I regret he is
not on the floors of the House to raise his
voice in answer to the opponents of this
measure , then there would be less said
then there has been on this question, and
the hon. President of the Council might
again decline to enter into an argument
with him.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—Now I wish to say,
once for all, that I did not refuse to enter
into an argument with Mr. Tilley. That
gentleman, I believe, stated that he challenged me to speak at Lingley Hall, in
Sackville, but it was thus : I received an
invitation from the Secretary, but he stated that I should not be allowed to speak.
When the statement was made that I had
refused to meet Mr. Tilley, I wrote to the
papers—both the
Freeman and the
Telegraph—that it was not true.
Mr. MCMILLAN.—I
took my information from the papers, but it is
no matter.
Now for the resolutions—what are they ?
I have no hope that any thing I
may say
will change the views of any one on the
floors of this Honse, They state that an
election has taken place—that an
appeal
has been made to the people—that they
have decided against
Confederation—that
they know every attention will
be paid to
the expression of the people,
and then, in
the face of all this, they
ask
that a delegation be sent home to tell the
people of
England all this that they
already know
as well as we do. There are intimations
that in Canada, in Nova Scotia, and in
this Province there is some " hidden
hand," and yet they do not lay their
information before the House. We know
that Confederation will not be forced upon
us, and yet we must send men home to
ask that it be not. Suppose they go, the
Imperial Cabinet will ask, "What is your
business, Mr. President?" "Oh, we hear
that there is some underhanded work
going on, and we came over to let you
know that we have decided against Confederation." This would, certainly, be
very satisfactory, and well worthy of the
expense to be incurred. I am opposed to
the Resolutions.
Hon. Mr. GILLMOR.—I claim to be a
good listener, but have no pretensions to
being a good speaker. I have listened
attentively to the speeches made upon
these resolutions. The hon. ex-Surveyor
General has made several long speeches ;
he has now made a sort of general reply
to several hon. members, so I shall not
attempt to follow him ;—their speeches
will appear, and the public can judge of
the arguments. He asks me how I feel ?
In reply, I beg to inform him that I am quite
well, both physically and politically ; and
if we can succeed in getting a few matters
set right on the other side of the water,
in reference to Confederation, all will be
well. I do not think it important that
the question of Confederation should now
be fully discussed ; it has been ably handled, both through the press and upon
the platform, and the people in this Province have given their verdict, and it has
been so decidedly in condemnation of the
scheme that a wayfaring man, through a
fool, need not fail to understand. The
friends of this scheme had it in their own
hands, and managed it in their own way ;
and yet, was there ever a question upon
which the people of this or any other
country spoke out more plainly, and gave
a decision more conclusive ? The hon
member for Albert says, this question of
Confederation is not new. I have been a
member of the Assembly for ten years,
and neither I nor any other member ever
heard it discussed in this Assembly. I
remember to have read a discussion had
between the Hon. Joseph Howe and, I
think, a Mr Uniack, some ten years ago,
and occasionally Judge Wilmot
has alluded
to it in some of his speeches ; and, except occasional allusions of this kind, it
is new to the people, and not one in a
hundred of the electors knew
anything
about this until after the delegates returned from Quebec. This scheme had
its origin in Canada ; their necessities
called for it, not ours. An idea of this
scheme was communicated to the leading
politicians of the Lower
Provinces, and
they went to Quebec and held the
Conference. I shall make no reference to the
constitutionality of this
delegation, but I
do know that the people did not send
them. Now, if there is any class
of persons that are calculated to impose upon
the people more than another, it is the
makers and venders of quack medicine.
These doctors went there, and in the space
of seventeen days they prepared what I call
a quack medicine ; having got it
prepared,
they next had to return and make the
people feel that they were sick. They
might have labelled it, "health and ?
fort for all ;"
so they told them that they
were financially
distressed and commercially depressed ; that they
could not get
along or expand unless they took this
medicine. So they went to work recommending the panacea, and some of the
people soon began to feel sick, but many
began
to ask how much the medicine
was
going to cost. If you look into the scheme,
you will see a medicine fixed up for all the
politicians ; they had certain ends to
work out, and
so they put into this medicine a larger
amount of
Soothing Syrup,
and this was especially intended for the
House of
Lords ; and it had its effect
as
forcibly upon men as it does upon children, as recent events have
proved, and
they expected it would so
operate upon
all the people. This matter was argued
out by the candidates upon both sides.
and in Charlotte County the Confederates
had an advocate, who, for eloquence and
fluency, was not inferior to the ablest advocate in this Province ; and yet, in a
constituency
of some 3,200 voters. I do
not think there were more than 600
out-
and-out Confederates. In this I may be
mistaken, but that is my opinion. The
arguments in favor of the scheme were
vague and indefinite. They said our
young men were going away, and this
was going to keep them all at
home ;
adopt this, and no fond mother was ever
to weep for an absent son, and no tender
lover was ever again to part from his
sweetheart. The people, however,
had
no idea it was going to produce
such results ; in Charlotte, this quest on, at least,
was fairly tried. During the ten years I
have been in politics, I have given the late
Government my support ; and, although
I have voted against some of their measures, up to the time of the last prorogation
I would not have voted
against them
in a direct vote of want of
confidence.
Now, if this Confederation scheme was so old and so good, why was it never discussed
upon the floors of this House ;
during that long term they had not discovered that we were such an
insignificant
people and that our resources were so
limited. On the contrary, they were continually telling us that we had vast resources,
and were all right, both politically and financially, and it was a favorite
expression of one of the delegates. "that
he had an abiding faith in the people." I
do not know exactly what he thinks of
that now. When the late Government
came into power ten years ago
this Province was really free from debt.
It was
138 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
thought
we wanted public works, and I
supported them in their Railway Scheme
of 1856 ; that undertaking involved us,
with other liabilities, to the extent of six
millions of dollars. This, in their opinion, was not all we could stand, so they
undertook 3 1 2 12ths of the Intercolonial
road, estimated to cost three million
pounds sterling. According to the cost
of the St. John and Shediac road, as compared with the cost, that amount might be
doubled ; but we are safe in saying it
would cost fourteen millions of dollars, our
part of that would be $5,833,000. Not
thinking, even then, that our resources
would be exhausted, at the last Session
they introduced and carried their Subsidy
Bill, providing $10,000 per mile for 188
miles of road, involving an additional liability of $1,780,000 more-making in all
at close of last Session $13,613,000.
These acts were upon the statute book,
and, of course, they thought and said we
were able to carry all this out ; if so it ill
becomes them to speak of us as very insignificant and poor and isolated. I
thought then, and I think now, they over
estimated our resources, and if there were
any political trouble, they had time and
power to have remedied them—but the
discovery was made just when they wanted
this great change. I do not profess to be
well acquainted with the history of Canada, but it is well known that for many
years there has been a great deal of political discord there, and to remedy this I
think this scheme was originated. My
hon. friend from Albert says they are our
brother colonists, and we ought to go in
and help them out of their difficulties. It
reminds me of a little story told by my
colleague, Mr. Hill ; A steamboat was
coming down the Mississippi ; there was
on board a tall, grave young man—so
grave and sober that he was observed by
all the passengers. When the boat arrived at Vicksburg and the passengers
landed on the wharf, there was a great
fight going on there. This young man
brightened up, and asked some of the bystanders if it was a free fight? They said
" Yes." Says he, " Has any one a right
to go in?" "Yes." said they. He took
off his coat and pitched in. In a short
time he returned to the boat, with a pair
of black eyes and his nose considerably
canted, very strongly convinced that it
would have been for his interest to have
remained out of the fight. Now this man
got served as we should had we gone into
this Union, with this exception—he got
out, we would have had to remain in. It
has been stated by some of the advocates
of this scheme, that when the Delegates
left the Conference, the Governments of
each of the Provinces were to use such
measures as they thought best to secure
its passage in the different Colonies.
Those who could get it passed without
submitting it to the people were to do so ;
those who felt sure of carrying it by
going to the country were to do so. This,
certainly, was not a very uniform mode of
commencing this great nationality. I am
not aware of what the intention of our
Government was on their return home ; at
the time I thought they would call the
Legislature together at the usual time,
discuss the question, and decide it at the
General Election which would have been
this summer ; and not until a very few
days before the dissolution did I believe
the House was to have been dissolved. It
was stated that Mr. Tilley, in answer to
a question put to him by Mr. McShane,
in Carleton, as to his intention to appeal
to the people, said that it would not be
decided without an appeal to the people.
Had I been present, I should certainly
have concluded from that reply
that he did
not intend to dissolve the House ;
but the
answer was a perfectly safe one.
If he
intended to dissolve at once, as he did, he
was all
right ; and if he intended to discuss it, and appeal to the people at
the
General
Election, then he was all
right,but which he
intended no one but himself
knew, but certainly he was not
very frank
and candid. The advocates of Confederation had in this Province a
decided advantage.
They had some of the ablest
men as lecturers, and certainly
they improved
the time. They had the influence
of
the Government, which is certainly
very
great. They had, I think, four-fifths
of the entire Press of the Province.
They
had that disposition
in man, a desire to
change, which is very common,
and a great
many believe their condition is a hard
one, and any change would be for the better, and they made the best use of all
theses advantages ; but the
people
had some
common sense and some
judgment, and
rejected a scheme which would certainly,
in my opinion, if adopted, have
been destructive to our best interests.
One very singular feature in this scheme
was, that every colony had got
the
best of the bargain. Mr. Tilley had
in finance outwitted all the
rest.
In Upper Canada the politicians had made
so good a bargain, that they could afford
to build several Intercolonial Railroads
and then make in the transaction. Nova
Scotia and Newfouudland, all had made a
wonderful good trade ; how all
could
have got the best of the arrangement and
no party the worst, I cannot understand.
It might be considered smart to
get the
best of the bargain, but if it
were done
knowingly, it could badly be considered
honest, and if discovered, not
calculated
to add much to the harmony of the Union.
One great argument, and one
which was
used to good effect, was the Railroad.
Now, I am free to admit, that the chances
were that the road would have been
built
in Confederation ; but not, I
think, quite
so soon as some people imagined. It depended entirely upon what a majority of
the Federal Parliament concluded after
the Constitution was complete ; it depended upon what a majority of that Parliament
might think necessary. They
might conclude that the finances were not
just at that time in a state to
warrant the
undertaking. They in Canada
played
false, so Mr. Tilley said, and they might
do so again ; but I think they would have
built it, and I think further that
it would
not have paid either them or us after
it
was built. The immense traffic and the
terrible increase of manufactories were
all or nearly so in the imagination
of the
Confederates. This Confederate Parliament was to be conducted by men of the
first talent from all the Colonies. Our
fifteen representatives would have little
influence there, even if they were
all united ; these fifteen gentlemen could do a
great deal more for New Brunswick in
our own Parliament, and would be quite
as well able to consider these general
matters here as there. I have never known
this Assembly to decline the consideration of any question on account of its
magnitude, particularly the late Government ; and we have no right to suppose
that our fifteen members would be united
in their politics, they would represent
both political parties. Human nature
would not be changed, and party feelings
would not be removed by the new order
of things. The hon. member for Restigouche says parties would be so evenly
divided that our men by going to either
side could effect their object, that
would
not be a very moral way to get what we
thought belonged to us, to ask
our representatives to join any party, right or
wrong. That hon. member said the Conference had tried to copy after
both the
Constitution of Britain and the United
States. They have succeeded in getting
a good deal of what is not
perfect in
both, and not a great deal of the good
qualities of either. The truth is, Mr.
Chairman, that an long as we
remain Colonies of England, we do not
want any
such expensive establishment : we
want
no such power between the Colonial Legislatures and the Crown. If we are to
become separate, then we may copy
after
the Federal Union, and perhaps
improve
some upon their system ; but until we are
seperate, we do not want this fifth wheel
to
our coach. I think there is not a desire
in this Province to become independent
of England. There may be such desire
in Canada West. It has been urged
that this arrangement was to bind us
more closely to the Mother Country. I
think it would have an entirely opposite
effect. Union they say is strength. They
have had for twenty-five years a union of
Upper and Lower Canada. They have
had great difficulties, and at last come
almost to a stand still. And
this Union
of the Colonies was the only remedy the
politicians of Canada could think
of, and
it was their troubles, and not ours, that
suggested it. In the appointment of the
Delegates they commenced a Coalition.
The late Government of New Brunswick
never used to think any advice or assistance necessary to manage the affairs of
the country ; in fact the thought the opposition had mismanaged it, but now there
was a matter to be carried out that would
suit all the political leaders. The unanimity of the delegates, and the different
Governments was certainly most remarkable, and only by accident did we discover that
any difference of opinion existed :
but we have heard that in the Constitution of the Federal Council there was a
difference, and that part of
the Scheme
was carried by the casting vote of the
Chairman, who was Mr. Tilley.
I think
that body should at first at least
have
been elected, so that the people in the first
instance could have chosen that branch
of the Legislature, a branch powerful
enough if they chose, to stop all legislation. Canada did some seven years ago
adopt the elective principle for their Legislative Council, and the British Government
evidently thinks it should be so in
this Scheme, and suggests it. The Colonial minister objects to two most important
principles in this
Scheme, said
to be so perfect, and hints strongly that
there are a goodly number of smaller defects ; but here it was to be taken just as
it was, being humanly speaking, perfect,
—and in the Federal Executive Council
it would be exceedingly difficult to so
compose it with the local and
sectional
differences as to make it work harmoniously, and in fact I think it would not
have worked at all, and am pleased thus
far that the people have not decided to let
them try it. The Scheme does not provide how the local Governments are to be
constituted. They are to have a Lieutenant Governor,, who shall be appointed
by the Governor General ; the
local Government and Legislature of each Provînce shall be constructed in such
manner as the existing Legislature
of each
Province shall provide, so each can have
about what they like, no uniformity is
provided for all the Colonies.
This great Â
Confederation was to amalgate the whole ;
DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 139
all races
and creeds were to be united.
Certain exceptions as to education are
provided for in Canada, the ministers
there are provided for in the arrangement.
Why not provide for Catholic or Protestant ministers in other Colonies. if necessary
in Canada ? Why not in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and all the other
Provinces ? The Delegates look with
favor upon
this scheme ; but so far as the
people have
had a chance to speak out it has been condemned. The British Government, I regret
to say, favors it, and as much as I
regard our connection with the
Mother
Country and prize the relation, I do not
choose that they shall decide
our destinies in this matter ; and it is because that
I think matters have been wrongly represented, that I think it important a Delegation
should go
home. There is no reason why this Union should be entered into,
but there are strong reasons why it should
not ; the time may come when a Federal
Union will be necessary. The hon.
member for Carleton says, if we had this
and if we had that we should be a wonderful people. If that gentleman's aunt
had been a man, she would have been his
uncle. The Hon. President of the Council, in reply to some hon. member, said he
could not understand him, unless upon
the principle that the more a man owed
the less it required to pay his debts.
That is really the case when men are not
satisfied with living and doing business
within their means ; they usually become
involved in difficulties, and, in many cases,
pay twenty shillings with five. There are
certain principles which govern the
growth of nations as well as individuals,
which cannot be changed without great
injury. We had better not try to put on
false appearances, or pretend to be what
we are not. If my hon. friend from
Carleton was to sit for his photograph
and try to look like the Duke of Wellington—for the Duke was every inch a
soldier—he would try in vain to look like
him ; he also had a frank and honest
countenance, and in that the failure would
be as great. I would not have spoken on
these resolutions at all, but the time would
have been occupied by others. Really,
no good can arise on this discussion. The
Confederates have failed before the people to make out a case, and I think have
as signally failed here.
On motion, the Committee then divided
on the Resolutions : Yeas, 27 ; Nays, 9.
REPORT OF THE SUPERINTENDENT OF THE
EUROPEAN AND NORTH AMERICAN RAILWAY ON THE RUNNING OF TRAINS, LAID
BEFORE THE HOUSE BY THE HON. MR.
SMITH ON THE 2ND DAY OF JUNE.
The
Steamer arrives at Point DuChene
from the Island on Tuesday about 9 A.
M. The train leaves Point DuChene for
St. John 10 45 A. M. The steamer
leaves for the North Shore at 10 A. M.
Passengers going by the steamer
now
leaver St. John on Monday morning
at 8 30 and remain at Shediac
all night.
If the Steamer would wait until 11 A. M.,
passengers could stay in St. John
until
5 15 P. M. on Monday, stay at Sussex all
night, arriving at Point DuChene at 10 40
on Tuesday morning, and take the steamer at once. That this connection is not
better is therefore the fault of the Steamer, not of the Railway.
The Steamer arrives at Point DuChene
on her return from the North Shore on
Wednesday about 2 P. M., in fine weather, but 3 P. M. would probably be the
average time of arrival. No through
train could be detained at Point DuChene
after 2 P. M,, as it would make the arrival in St. John too late to suit the local
traffic. The freight train for Sussex
leaves Shediac at 3 P. M., and at any
time that there were twenty passengers
they could be expressed Sussex
to
St. John in time for the American Boat
of Thursday morning. Passengers from
the Island having come down on Tuesday or Wednesday by the express train
are in plenty of time for Thursday's
Boat.
The Steamer leaves Point DuChene
for the Island at 3 P. M. on Wednesday
and Saturday, the express train from St.
John reaching Point DuChene at 2 30 P.
M. The Steamer arrives at Point DuChene from the Island on Friday
evening about 6 o'clock. Passengers take
the train on Saturday
morning for St.
John in time for the American
Boat of
Monday morning.
In consequence of the train leaving
Shediac at 11 o'clock, passengers from
Chatham and Richibucto, from Amherst,
Sackville and Dorchester, from Hills-
borough and Harvey can reach the
down express
train without travelling at night, as they would have to do
if the train left at eight. Passengers by
the express train arrive in St. John at 4
45 P. M., in time to take the night boat
to Fredericton if they wish.
The excursion trains, three times a
week, will, in all probability, accommodate what is called the " pleasure travel"
out of St. John. These trains are run at
very little expense as no extra hands are
necessary.
Next,
as to the cattle, &c.,
remaining
all night at Sussex. They are in the cars
only 17 hours from Moncton, a mnch
shorter time than cattle on some of the
long roads in the States are confined.
The cattle cars are well ventilated, and
much more comfortable than the ordinary barns in which cattle are kept. If
the cattle are crowded into the cars they
may suffer, but this would be equally the
case with any arrangement, and is the
fault of the owners themselves. The
sheep, calves, and pigs are carried in
cars, the sides of which are formed of
iron or wooden gratings, so that they are
quite cool. They are not in nearly so
bad a position as cattle, sheep, &c.,
brought across the bay in schooners.
Moncton is the most distant station from
which cattle are brought. They are put
on board say at 4 30 P. M. and arrive in
St. John at 9 30 the next morning, so
that they are carried during the coolest
parts of the day. For the shorter distances the arrangement is of course less
objectionable.
JUNE 5th.
On motion of
Mr. CONNELL the House
went into Committee on the papers relating to the claim of Robert Custance,
and others, against the St. Andrews and
Quebec Railway Company.
Mr. CONNELL explained the case and
offered the following resolution :
Resolved that an humble address be
presented to His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor, praying that His Excellency will
be pleased to cause an
investigation to be had, during the recess of the Legislature, into the Petition
of Robert Custance, and others, who allege to have claims against the St. Andrews
and Quebec Railway Company,
and will cause the result of such investigation to be laid before this House at
its next sittings ; or that such action be
taken by His Excellency and Council,
after such investigation, as will preserve
the
just rights of the claimants.
The following Petition and statement
of claims against the Company were put
in :
(Copy.)
To His Excellency the Honorable ARTHUR HAMILTON GORDAN, C. M. G.,
Lieut. Governor, and Commander-in-
Chief of the Province of New Brunsswick, &c. &c. &c.
The Petition of the undersigned inhabitants of the Parish of Richmond, in
the County of Carleton,
MOST HUMBLY SHEWETH—
That your petitioners have done work
and labor, and furnished and provided
materials, &c,, for the use of the St.
Andrews and Quebec Railway and Land
Company, and at the request of their duly
authorized agents.
That there are large amounts due and
owing the undersigned from said Company, which your petitioners are much
in need of, and have no way of obtaining
the same.
Your petitioners are aware that your
Excellency protected the labourers that
worked on the railroad belonging to said
Company during the part of the
year A.
D., 1862. That your Petitioners did not
wish to make any trouble at that time
to embarrass the parties concerned in
said Road, and therefore did not make
their claim against the Company, thinking and hoping that the Company would
fairly and honorably meet their engagements and promises with your petitioners.
That the Manager of the said Railway
gave acceptances to many of your petitioners, and supposed that he would pay
them, and therefore did not take
legal
proceedings against said Company.
That since said acceptances
have been
made the Manager has refused to pay
the demand of your petitioners, and have
now no way of obtaining the same.
Your petitioners are informed, and
believe, that the provisions of
the Act of
Assembly giving time to complete
the
said Railroad to Woodstock has expired
and that they have now no legal right
to any further grant of land. or to be
paid any money secured by any Facility
Bill respecting or relating to
the said
Railway.
Your petitioners, therefore, pray that
no payment be made, or allowed to be
paid, by the Province to said Company,
nor any grant of land be issued, nor any
further privileges be given to said Company until an investigation of your petitioners'
claims be made, and payments
made them for the amounts still due and
unpaid to them.
That the Schedule hereunto annexed
is a true and proper schedule of the
amounts due your petitioners.
And, as in duty bound,
Will ever pray,
(Signed.)
Alex Kirkpatrick, Samuel Hemphill,
Geo. DeBeck, Jas. Dugan,
Robt. M. Bailey, Isaac Dougherty,
Mr. Benj. Dougherty, Mrs. Fleming,
Joesph Harvey, Mr. Edward Cain,
Wm. Crawford, David Alexander,
Chas. Crawford, St. T . Plummer,
Oliver Hemphill, John Breen,
Robert Carmont.
The following schedule of the amounts
due the parties who signed the petition
hereunto annexed, and the amounts due.
Cet individu a participé aux :
