64 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1863.
TUESDAY, MAY 23.
Mr. Young moved a ryder to the Militia Bill. He had been looking over the Canadian
Act, and he found among the exempts " sea-faring men, branch pilots, and pilots actually
engaged in their calling." He thought this would cover the deep sea fishery men who
certainly should not be liable to the draft.
Mr. Keen said he thought that seamen, branch pilots, and those engaged in deep
sea fisheries should be exempt. The pilots were as much required to attend to vessels
entering our ports, as ferrymen to cross our streams. In Canada all fishermen and
pilots engaged on the Lakes were exempt.
Hon. Mr. Hatheway said this ryder would cover all the people of the County of
Gloucester as it was well-known that every man there kept his fishing boat and went
out in the morning to return at night.
Mr. Young explained that there were
over a thousand militia men, besides those whom it was contemplated to, exempt. His
object was to exempt those men who go to the Labrador coast and elsewhere, and are
absent during four months in the year.
Hon. Mr. Allan said he thought it would be best to let the Bill run for a year,
and in that time it would be seen upon whom it bore hardly, and could be remedied.
Mr. Williston said those who were
engaged in the deep sea fisheries had but a short time to obtain their livelihood,
and during that time they should be exempt.
Mr. Needham wanted to know the
meaning of deep sea fisheries. The sea is defined as below low water mark. The difficulty
would be to define the meaning of the term. He had looked over the Imperial Dictionary
and found sea, seaman,
and sea devils, but nothing of sea-faring
men.
Mr. McClellan said if any class of men should be exempt it was the farmers of
the country. We were giving a great power into the hands of an irresponsible officer
withouth having received any com- complaint or petition from the people, and he thought
the whole thing was uncalled for.
Mr. Boyd moved the following to be added to the list of exempts, as an amendment
: " That no militia man employed in the deep sea fisheries in the Gulf of St. Lawrence,
Bay de Chaleur and Bay of Fundy, be called on to do duty as such in any camp of instructions
during the fishing season between the months of April and October in each year ; and
also branch pilots and apprentices, and pilots employed in their calling during the
season of navigation.
Mr. Coran thought that any man who
was engaged in harbour fisheries, which were of great importance to the country, should
be placed amongst the exempts.
Hon. Mr. Allen felt confident that if this class of men were made exempt that
dissatisfaction would be felt among many other callings. It would be very difficult
to define who came within the meaning of the law, and he thought that it would be
best to let the Bill remain as it is for this year. The hon. member for Albert (Mr.
McClellan) seemed to pursue a somewhat inconsistent part, as he now opposes a Bill
which contains the same provisions as that he supported under the late Government.
Mr. McMillan said there was one class
of men who should be exempt, and he was sure the Hon. Commissioner of the Board of
Works would support him in this ; he referred to the lumbermen of the Province. At
certain seasons it would be a gret loss to have these men taken from their employment.
Suppose a gang of men were employed on a raft of logs coming down the Nashwaak and
they were to be called off to attend drill, the Hon. Commissioner would be subjected
to great loss ; he thought these should be added to the list of exempts.
Mr. Wetmore said he had moved in
this matter yesterday when the Bill was before the Committee, and he could not support
either the ryder, or amendment, unless it included all who were engaged in salt water
fisheries. He hoped the hon. member for Charlotte would allow them to be included
in the amendment.
Mr. Thompson did not believe the draft would be enforced at all, as there would
be plenty of volunteers to fill the camp. He thought it was all nonsense to bring
in these exemptions, and that the Bill should remain as it is.
Mr. Otty informed the Hon. Attorney
General that what is implied by deep sea fisheries could easily be known by reference
to the Fishery Act, 14th Victoria, Chap. 31, Section 4, where the coast fisheries
are defined to be " situated on the sea coast of the Province, or around any island
laying off the said sea coast, between low water mark and three marine miles of each
coast or island." The deep sea fishery would be outside of this line.
Mr. Needham thought that lawyers
should be added to the list of exempts, as it would be very hard to take them from
their duties during the settings of the Courts.
Mr. McClellan would explain to the
hon. Attorney General that at the time of the passing of the last Bill he did not
vote for it. He believed the Bill was not debated at all. There was, however, a different
construction placed upon : certain
words now from what was then contemplated. The consent of the Queen was understood
to mean the Queen and Her Council ; the command of His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor
was considered the Governor and his advisers. Now these terms are confined to the
persons named without reference to their Council or advisers. If it were not for this
construction he would not have spokon the subject.
Mr. Lindsay said it would be very hard
for the farmers to be called out ; the season was short, and if they lost a month's
labor, it might affect their subsistence for the year. He thought the best plan would
be to move a ryder that nobody should be called out. If the law passes, every man
should take his turn, and if any one was to be exempted, the farmers certainly should
be ; they are the bone and sinew of the country. The people can do without fish, for
they can get beef and farm produce, but if these fail the country would suffer.
Mr. Fraser hoped that another class
would be included in the list ; he referred to the back settlers, who were a very
valuable class of people.
Mr. Williston would suggest to the hon. mover of the amendment the desirability
of including the Straits of Northumberland. He wished the House to understand that
tho grounds used for fishing purposes by the people on the coast are the same as those
used by the Americans, the only difference being that our people go out in their whale
boats for the day and return at night, and they lie off in their vessels. There would
be no difficulty in determining what is meant by deep sea fishing, as it is understood
by the Americans as outside of three miles from the coast line.
Mr. Lewis said there was so much difficulty in knowing what was really meant that
he thought the Bill should remain as it is.
Mr. Bailey said there was another class of men he should like to see added, and
that was all men engaged in the coasting trade, and the fresh water sailors running
in our rivers and inland lakes.
Mr. Landry said a great many of his
people hired out for a month, and if they lost this time they would be subject to
a great inconvenience, and all should be treated alike. The best plan would be to
kill the Bill.
Mr. Cudlip said if anything justified him in the action he took yesterday as
to the compulsory draft, it was the feeling which was manifested this morning. He
was strongly opposed to men being taken from their calling in a time of peace. The
hon. members were speaking as the people, and the feeling was general that every calling
should be exempt from the draft. But he thought if there was one class more than another
upon which it would fall heavily, it was those engaged in the shore fisheries. These
men are at home, and come within the law, whilst those who are absent engaged in the
deep sea fisheries could not be reached. He hoped the ryder would be made to cover
both parties.
On the amendment being put the House
divided, yeas 10, nays 10. They were therefore both lost.
The Militia Bill being read a third time
was then passed as amended by the Committee.
Hon. Mr. Gillmor moved the House
into Committee of the Whole on a Bill to provide for repairing and improving Great
Roads and Bridges and other public works and services.
DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 85
The Bill was agreed to.
Hon. Mr. GILLMOR moved the House
into Committee of the whole on Bill to
provide for the defraying of the expenses
of the civil government.
The Bill was agreed to.
Hon. Mr. BOTSFORD moved the House
into Committee of the whole on a Bill relating to Sewers.
Mr. BEVERIDGE in the chair.
The Bill was agreed to.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN moved the House
into Committee on a Bill to promote and
regulate a Reformatory School for juvenile
offenders.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN said it had been
considered by a great many persons in St.
John that such schools were necessary.
Various schemes had from time to time
been proposed, but none of them had succeeded, chiefly from the want of means to
carry them into effect. His Honor Judge
Parker had taken a great interest in the
subject, and obtained information as to
the working of such institutions in England, and had laid it before the Quarter
Sessions. The plans he has suggested
have not been considered possible, and
nothing has been done. The Bill now
before the Committee was founded on a
different principle to any that had been suggested here. It was almost a transcript
of the Reformatory Bill passeded by
the Imperial Parliament, and he considered this in itself a great recommendation.
Instead of being carried on as a public
institution, it provides that it shall be
supported by private interests. Hon. Mr.
Anglin then proceeded to explain the
provisions of the Bill.
Mr. KERR asked if the juvenile criminals were to be associated with the poor,
ignorant children picked up from the
streets.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN explained that it was
only intended for juvenile criminals who
were subjected to 14 days in the Penitentiary.
Mr. CONNELL asked if there was any
petition before the House in support of
the Bill. It seemed that the Government
were to support it by a grant of money,
and he should like some further information on the subject.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN explained that the
subject was one that had been urgred for
a long time—some seven or eight years,—
and as to the grant, it was not compulsory, but permissive. The School would
be under the inspection of the Governor
and Council, and any person appointed for
the purpose of inspection, and if the
School wes not carried on in such a manner as would prove beneficial the grant
could he withheld.
Mr. CONNELL had a great objection to
appropriating the public funds for such a
purpose. He had watched the operations
of hon. members for St. John when the
Hospital Bill was up, and he noticed after
the whole was got through they wanted
an appropriation of £2,000. He did not
know but this might be something of the
same kind; at any rate, the Bill was too important to be rushed through, and he hoped
progress would be reported to give members an opportunity of looking it over.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN said there was not,
nor had there been, any desire to push the Bill through. It had been on fyle since
the first week of the Session, and hon. members could have investigated it. He had
been careful to point out the provisions of the Bill, so that nothing should be passed
without coming under the di
rect notice of the Committee. With regard to the sectarian character of the
instruction to be imparted in the School,
the gentlemen who had framed the Bill
did not believe in any religion which was
not sectarian. They regarded it as having no existence -- as a nonentity. No
injustice was done to any denomination,
for all could under this Bill get up just
such an institution. If hon. members
thought best, he was willing to submit it
to a select Committee to alter and amend
it, if they thought necessary, and report
to the House upon it.
Hon. Mr. WILMOT said from his knowledge of the City of St. John, he believed
it necessary that some such institution as
this should be established. Judges Parker
and Ritchie had both taken this matter up
at different times, and brought it before
the notice of the Sessions, and impressed
upon them the necessity of making some
provision for juvenile offenders. He should
like to have seen a measure that would
heve included all denominations; but as
there appeared to be little prospect of
this at present, and as the ccae was a
pressing one, he was in favour of being
referred to a Select Committee to report
upon it.
Mr. KERR thought the Bill was entirely
of a local character. In no other country
than St. John would sufficient juvenile
offenders be found to warrant the establishment of such an institution. And even
if it were not so, no country could at any
rate afford more than one, and that according to this Bill, must be under the
religious instruction of one denomination.
And then to take an offender who had
been sentenced to 14 days imprisonment
and put him in a Reformatorn for five
years, looked very much like placing a tax
upon the country for its support. He saw
that the Bill was very important, and that
all the Province would be effected by it.
He admitted the general principles of the
Bill, but it should be very carefully guarded. He would like to know if the Bill
had been laid before the Sessions.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN said it had not; but
so much had been said and done, that
certain parties ln St. John thought it
ought to be brought before the House.
Manny of the difficulties had been removed,
and they were ready to work at
once and put up a building; but without
the passage of the Bill they would have
no power to retain the children. As to
the support of the Government, it was
entirely free to be given or withheld, and
if that was considered an objection, rather
than have nothing done, he was willing to
allow that section to be struck out.
Mr. CONNELL asked if the subject of
establishing a Reformatory had not been
before the Sessions, and if this buîlding
were put up to what denomination would
it belong.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN said the Sessions had
not been able to agree upon any plan by
which it could be carried on. It was well
to have everything plain and above board,
and he would say that this Bill emanates
from from the Catholic body of St. John. The
hon. member for Carleton seemed to be afraid that a building which had been erected
in St. John was to be used for this purpose. He could assure thim that no such thing
was contemplated. There was one provision in the Bill which he had forgotten to mention,
and that was, the parents of those children placed in the School would be liable for
a certain portion of their support, and could be sued if they refused to pay. The
bill in its character was not local, but provincial;
but it was denominational, as without a course of religious instruction, it was believed
no improvement could be looked for. The difficulty with the Sesions had been chiefly
that they thought the country ought not to provide the funds, and were
afraid the Province would not. He was
quite willing to allow progress to be reported, so that members could read the
Bill and consider its provisions. He did not wish to smuggle it through the house
for it was an object of the greatest importance that these poor unfortunate children
should be saved from a life of crime,
and that the community should be relieved of them.
Mr. CORAM said it was time something
was done in this matter. The police reports of Saint John show that the number
of juvenile offenders is continually increasing, and he t thought it was a great
wrong that children of tender age, who
had been brought up in vice and crime,
should for some small offence be put in
the Penitentiary to become hardened by
contact with old offenders. He saw no
objection to children being trained and
instructed in the religion of their forefathers, and nothing in the Bill that should
prevent its going through. He was in
favor of progress being reported that
members might look into the Bill and be
in a position to carry it through the House.
Mr. WETMORE endorsed the idea of
the hon. member for Saint John ; but the
hon. member for Carleton (Mr. Connell)
seemed to think that because there was no
petition it was therefore hardly worth
while to go into the matter. The hon.
member had not probably seen the police
court of Saint John. There, frequently,
boys of from eight to twelve years of age
were arraigned for trifling offences,, (but
which the law regarded as larceny, and,
therefore, the Magistrate could not overlook) and were sentenced for different
periods to the Provincial Penitentiary.
If the Magistrate made the penalty light
on account of the circumstances in which
they were reared, and the influences by
which they were surrounded they were sure
to be brought up again and again. The
Penitentiary was a very bad school to
teach boys to reform, for there they were
thrown in contact with men of the worst
character, who had committed the vilest
crimes. The hon. member was afraid
there was something sectarian in the
School proposed to be established; he
would ask the hon. member if he was
ready to proscribe the Roman Catholics?
Mr. CONNELL. -- No, but let it be known
by what denominetion the School is to be
carried on .
Mr. WETMORE would put it to the hon.
member if he was willing to prevent the
Protestants moving in the matter? He
thought the step a very laudable one, and
one that reflects credit on the Catholics.
of Saint John for taking the initiative in a
matter of so much importance. he was
sorry the Protestants had not moved before. but he hoped they would do so now.
The hon. member for Northumberland
(Mr. Kerr) appeared to be alarmed lest the country should crumble to pieces on
the mention of money grants, but he was sure that money could not be better employed
than in such an undertaking. All that other denominations would have to do, was to
subscribe funds and put up a building, to have a Reformatory too. He had frequently
heard both Mr. Justice Parker and Mr. Justice Ritchie speak in the strongest terms
of the necessity for such a reform school, and he was glad that steps were taken to
do something for these poor untrained boys.
86 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
Mr. McCLELLAN said no hon. member
could object to the position taken by the
hon. member for the city of Saint Joh..
There could be no doubt but that a Reformatory was very much needed there.
The only objection he raised was that it was sectional and sectarian, and therefore
should not be supported by the funds of
the Province. He thought the Catholics
were entitled to much praise for the steps
they were taking, but this School being
entirely for the benefit of Saint John, and
under the care of the Catholic body, should
not be upheld by public grants. He did
not think such Institutions were needed in
any other part of the country; but, apart
but apart from the grant, was willing to assist in
carrying out the views of those who had
framed the Bill.
Hon. Mr. SMITH said the objections to
the Bill semed to be narrowing down to
the details. Judgess Parker and Ritchie,
whose only motives could be to bring
juvenile offenders from the paths of vice
and iniquity into those of virtue, had taken great interest in this matter, and he
thought the House should take hold with
them and do something to assist in carrying out so laudable an object. The training
in this school would sectarian and
he thought it should be; he did not see
how such an Institution could be carried
on if it were not sectarian. As to the
grant the Governor and Council were not
compelled to take action, and give towards
its support. All denominations could organize under this law, and amounts could
be granted to each as required. It was,
however, entirely voluntary on the part of
the Governor and Council and also on
the part of the Sessions, to grant anything towards its support. If there were
any objection. to this Section, he had no
doubt the hon. mover would consent to
have it struck out And as there was so
little objection. he thought it would be
best to go on and pass the Bill at once.
AFTERNOON SESSION -- 3 P.M.
Mr. KERR said Section 7 gave authority
to the Sessions to assess the whole inhabitants to any amount needed for an
object that was entirely sectarian, and as
there was no petition from them asking
that such a power might be granted he
thought the Committee should pause before passing the Bill. Section 10 says
that this Reformatory could only be made
available for one denomination, and he
did not think that all other sects should
be assessed to support it. He hoped process would be reported. to give time for
the Bill to be printed and circulated about
the country.
Hon. Mr. SMITH could see no objection
to it. If gentlemen chose to get up a school
of this kind and to support it, every encouragement should be given them. There
was no danger that the Sessions would
assess the whole population for one denominational school, and if the hon. mover
would strike out the Section with reference to the Governor and Council, he
could see nothing objectionable in the
Bill, or that required that progress should
be reported.
Mr. CONNELL said his only objection
was that a grant should be taken from the
Provincial funds.
Hon. Mr. ANGLIN thought the striking
out at that clause would seriously detract
from the usefulness of the Institution.
He should test the feeling of the House
upon it, but he would" rather consent to
have it struck out than have no Bill at all.
He thought the Committee now thoroughly understood the Bill, and did not call for
reporting progress. So far as the in
struction was concerned-this school would
be denominational ; but it was neither
sectarian nor sectional that we should have
one murderer, or one thief, or one felon
the less, and the community one good
citizen more. He was opposed to even
the smallest denomination having anything but fair play and he asked no more
for the denomination to which he belonged that he would willingly grant Protestant
Episcopalians, or Presbyterians, or
Baptists.
Mr. HILL considered the move a good
one; taking up the youth who had been
surrounded by evil influences all their
lives and placing them where better habits
would be inculcated. The objectionable
point was that the Governor and Council
may give pecuniary assistance. The
" may" might just as well be "shall," for
that was the effect of the clause. The
carrying on of a Reformatory was hedged
with difficulties. If it should be carried
on without any religious instruction, in
five years the inmates would be more like
heathens than christians. Then it would certainly be a wrong to compel them to receive
a certain denominational education contrary to the wishes of their
parents. And then there was the plan
now introduced ; but this is denominational, and he did not wish to see the Government
suffering any greater denominational pressure than now, and he thought
the Government grant should be struck
out. But with regard to the Sessions he
was willing to go further than the Bill
provided, and make it compulsory on them
to assess the people to support such a
school. If a youth were sent there, it was
not for the benefit of the denomination to
which his father belonged. but for the
good of the community. He did not ap
prove of any more denominational grants,
for he believed that now some schools received assistance more on account of the
denomination than from any merits they
possessed in themselves.
Hon. Mr. HATHEWAY thought the question should not be taken up on denominational grounds. He regretted
that religion was brought up in connection with
grants to schools. It had long been complained that the Provincial Penitentiary
had been used for these young miscreants, while the people all over the Province
had to pay for their support. The Gaol accommodation of Saint John was not
sufficient, and so they had to be sent
there; and now when it is proposed to
take them off the hands of the Province,
complaints are made that it is the work
of a certain denomination. In his official
capacity, as one of the Commissioners of
Public Institutions, he had seen children
working at the same bench with the vilest
criminals. This should not be. He was
in favor of the Bill, and should go for
anything that would tend to benefit these
juvenile offenders.
Mr. WETMORE referred to the position
of boys in the Penitentiary that they were
liable to the same penalties, as the men;
that from the influences by which they
had been surroundedsil all their lives they
were not so much to blame; that their
being sent to the Penitentiary was but
the means of hardening and totally destroying them; and he thought they should
not be sent there at all, but at once put
into Reformatory, and that there everything should be done to save them from a
life of degradation and crime.
Mr. NEEDHAM had never known but one
case of good resulting from punishment
during the ten years of his magistracy, and that was a boy who was sentenced to the
Penitentiary with two others. He
came back and has since lived honestly
and worked industriously. He believed that children should not be sent there are all,
but that Magistrates should have power to commit them directly to the Reformatory.
The obejct of conviction was not punishment, but reformation. He felt that punishment
should never be inflicted by man except for murder, and he fully believed that if
during the last century men had done as much to reform abuses as they have to punish
offences there would not be so much crime and degradation as there are now.
Mr. THOMPSON was anxious to see some such Institution established, as he believed it would be
the means of saving a a large amount of money in the expenditure for the Provincial
Penitentiary.
Mr. GILBERT said it was evident that juvenile delinquency was on the increase; this was shown
by the report of the Chief of Police in Saint John. It therefore,
now becomes necessary for the Legislature to deal with the matter. and, decide
whether these young criminals should continue to be educated in crime, or stop the
present system and train them in a Reformatory, where their habits would be
changed. This was not a local affair; it
was not confined to Saint John, but one in
which all the country felt an interest.
After the friends of the Institution had
done all their means would permit, the
Government should step in and assist in
the work. The system now proposed is
carried out in England and upheld by
English law. If it is wished to reform
these youths it is not only necessary to
give them a moral training but also a religious, a spiritual training. the only mode
by which they could permanently be benefitted is by giving them a Christian training
in that which is right and good. He
thought the hon. member for Saint John
(Mr. Anglin) deserved much credit for
introducing the Bill.
Mr. MCMILLAN did not view this question in the light of a denominational institution but as a
sectional, a local one.
It had been admitted that even Fredericton was not in a position to support one
of these Reform Schools, and it was evident that only Saint John could be bene
fitted. He therefore should oppose the
granting of the Provincial funds for a
purely local object.
Mr. KERR regretted that an institution
could not be obtained that would embrace
the whole juvenile offenders of the Province, but as it appeared this could not
be done, he thought this one had a strong
a claim on the revenues of the country.
Still he was opposed to giving the power
to grant into the hands of the Governor
and Council.
On the question whether power should
be given to the Governor and Council to
grant assistance to the Institution the
House divided—Yeas 10. Nays 11.
Progress was then reported
Mr. CONNELL moved the House into
Committee of the whole on a Bill relating
to Marriage. Mr. LEWIS in the Chair.
This Bill, the object of which is to
shorten the time in the publication of
banns, and to reduce licence fees, was
supported by Petitions from almost every
part of the Province.
After some remarks by various members progress was reported.
Mr. KERR moved for leave to bring in
a Bill relating to Saint John's Church,
Chatham.
House adjourned to meet on Thursday morning at 9 o'clock. J.M.
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