Mr. Chairman I have this afternoon received
the following communication from His Excellency the Governor, which I will ask the
Secretary
to read to the Convention.
His Excellency the Governor has been
informed by the High Commissioner for
Canada in Newfoundland that the Canadian
government will be happy to receive a
delegation from the National Convention of
Newfoundland at a mutually convenient
date.
The Canadian government is of the
opinion that the questions to be discussed
with the delegation are of such complexity
and of such significance for both countries
that it is essential to have a complete and
comprehensive exchange of information and
a full and careful argument of both panics of
all issues involved, so that an accurate appreciation of the position may be gained
on
each side.
The Canadian government is confident
that the friendship and co-operation which
have marked the relations of our two
countries should provide a firm basis for our
discussions. The delegation from the National Convention will be warmly welcomed in
Ottawa.
Government House, St. John's, Nfld. April 1,
1947.
I take it that following the precedent of a few
weeks ago, the next matter is to resolve the Convention into a committee of the whole
for the
purpose of electing this delegation, if someone
will now make a motion to that effect.
Mr. Ballam Mr. Chairman, in my opinion,
before any such delegation is elected we should
have the findings of the delegation to London
first, in order to get a complete picture of the
whole set-up.
Mr. Chairman The matter is entirely in the
hands of the Convention, but I suggest that this
delegation has a very substantial amount of work
to do before they can leave to discuss the question
of confederation with the Canadian government.
It is not our desire to unduly prolong the length
of this Convention, and in all probability the
delegation to London will have returned by the
middle of May, around which time the delegation
to Ottawa should be ready to leave. In the meantime it is perfectly obvious they will
have a
tremendous amount of work to do. We have
asked the Canadian government to receive a
delegation, and they have accepted the idea. It is
obvious now that we must get ready for that
delegation to go. I am not going into any details
now, but I suggest there is a tremendous amount
of work to do locally. They have to take up the
possible repercussion of the change from the
Newfoundland to the Canadian tariff, the amount
of the revenue that will be left to us, what amount
would be required to run a provincial government, where these monies will have to
come
from, how much of our money will have to be
taken over by the Canadian government, etc. All
these questions require considerable figuring, in
the course of which deliberations the delegation
will have to have the assistance of some of the
financial advisers of the government, the Assessor of Taxes and others. In fairness
to whoever
the delegation should be, I suggest that they
should be appointed immediately, but it is for you
to decide.
Mr. Hickman There may be something in what
you say, and there may be something for them to
do before they go, but I don't see any immediate
rush to do it today. I would like to see this report
cleaned up first, and with that in view I will make
a motion that the election of the delegation to
Canada be postponed until we finish this Public
Health report.
Mr. Ballam I have much pleasure in seconding
that.
Mr. Chairman You have heard the motion. Is
there any further discussion?
Mr. Hillier I see no objection to electing the
delegation to Canada immediately, but I also see
no objection to delaying it until this report is
finished. Seeing it has been moved and seconded
I am prepared to accept it.
Mr. Smallwood Suppose the report finishes
today, according to the motion the election will
follow the completion of the debate on the report.
Is that what you have in mind?
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 451
Mr. Hickman The motion I made was that the
question of the election should come up after the
completion of this report.
Mr. Smallwood Do you mean its adoption, because you recall Major Cashin's motion of
yesterday, which he withdrew to bring up again
on the motion of the adoption of this report?
Mr. Hickman That might take us another three
weeks. No, I mean the completion of our debate
on it, Major Cashin's motion might keep us a
month.
Mr. Chairman May I suggest that your motion
should be that the election be deferred until the
orders of the day are completed?
Mr. Hickman Supposing we don't finish today,
it might be necessary to continue tomorrow?
Mr. Job I can't see why we should not go ahead
now, it has to be done sometime.
Mr. Hickman Well, I thought if we finish
tonight we can go ahead with the election.
Mr. Newell I am entirely in accord with the
sentiments of Mr. Job. Sometime ago we decided
we would send a couple of delegations, and when
the letter was brought in here informing us that
one such delegation would be received we went
ahead and elected it. I don't see why we should
waste any further time. We have known that we
were going to send a delegation to Ottawa, and
frankly I did not know that today might be the day
of the election, but I have known that we would
be sending a delegation, and I have in mind who
I should like to see on that delegation. I don't
need any further consideration or advice, and I
don't see why the matter should not be disposed
of and then get on with our regular business.
There has been altogether too much pussy-footing around here.
Mr. McCarthy I was going to say much the
same as Mr. Nowell. It is only a matter of 20
minutes or so. We all knew for some time that
there would be a delegation to Ottawa, and there
was no comment last time when the delegation
was elected to go to London. According to the
motion that the delegation should proceed to
London and the other should proceed to Ottawa
there was nothing in that motion to say that the
delegation could not be elected before the other
one had returned; so I don't see why we should
delay. Let's get it over with
Mr. Smallwood I think Mr. Hickman's motion
is reasonable. If we finish this report tonight, we
can then get on with the election.
Mr. Hickman I am perfectly satisfied to
withdraw it. I thought we would clean up one
thing first, but I am perfectly satisfied to
withdraw it.
Mr. Ballam I don't want to hold up the thing at
all, but the orders of the day were to continue with
the Report of Public Health and Welfare and I
don't see why we should inject anything into the
orders of the day.
Mr. Chairman This is a communication from
His Excellency the Governor and that's why it
was introduced at the beginning of the session. I
received this communication since lunch, no one
knew I had it, but I felt it was my duty to bring it
before the Convention immediately. What the
Convention does with it is for the Convention to
decide. It seems to me that we are only following
the precedent that we set a few weeks ago when
we elected the delegation to London.
Mr. Hickman Vote on the question and let the
house decide.
Mr. Ballam I seconded that motion, but I am
willing to let it go as you wish. I don't like Mr.
Newell's saying that we are pussy-footing
around. Any delegation that goes from this Convention is important and there is no
nonsense
about it. I don't know what is going on, because
there is so much inside and outside stuff going
on, and it's time we got down to rock bottom, It
seems to me there are some who are bent on
selling the country or tying its hands.
Mr. Chairman If you will excuse me, please, no
delegation from this Convention can possibly sell
this country, or in any way tie the country's
hands. I want that to be distinctly understood.
Mr. Newell I find that Mr. Ballam and I are very
much in accord, and it was precisely for some of
the things he hinted at that I would like to have
the election now. Let's have it — now is the time.
Mr. Penney I am with Mr. Ballam on Mr.
Hickman's motion, for the reason that I have not
given any thought to it, and I am not prepared to
select members of this Convention at this moment; but if we proceed with the business
before
452 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
the Chair, I would have time to think it over. I
would not like to think that there is going to be
anything rigged in the way of selecting delegates
to go to Ottawa.
Mr. Chairman I can assure you, Mr. Penney,
that there has been nothing rigged. No one in the
world knew of this except myself and His Excellency until this afternoon.
Mr. Penney I know that, but there was whispering going around after the delegation for England
was elected that there was a kind of a selection
made or agreed upon. Whether that was so or not
I don't know; I did not have any part in it and I
voted for the delegates I thought best. I don't
agree that we are wasting time if we proceed with
the business where we left off last night, and then
select the delegates and give us all a fair chance.
Mr. Fowler I would like to support Mr.
Hickman's motion simply because on looking
around here I see six or seven seats vacant, and
possibly by the time we have this disposed of the
members may be here.
Mr. Chairman Let me be quite sure what your
motion is, or have you withdrawn it?
Mr. Hickman I suggest that we put the motion
which is that the election be deferred until this
report is finished and adopted, except for the
proviso of Major Cashin, but until the debate is
concluded, and immediately after that proceed
with the election.
Mr. Chairman The motion is then that the election take place after the completed report of the
committee of the whole has been received. Does
everybody understand that clearly? When the
committee of the whole on the Public Health and
Welfare Report has reported that they have considered the matter and passed it and
recommend
that it be received and laid on the table of the
House, after that the election takes place. Is that
it?
Mr. Higgins It strikes me that if you are going
to wait until the report is adopted, and there is talk
of adjouming until after the Easter recess, in that
case it could very well be that the election would
not take place until after the Easter recess.
Mr. Hickman I thought that it would be completed today. I had no intention of delaying it till
after Easter.
Mr. Vardy We decided here a little while ago to
send two delegations, and it was the understanding that the delegation would be chosen
for
Ottawa immediately we learnt from that country
that they would receive that delegation. I think
we should all be big and broad enough to face the
issue now and then get on with the report. None
of us knew this was coming up, but I think we
should face up to it now. We are all in the same
boat, and then we won't be accused of gauging
up on anyone.
Mr. Hickman I would suggest that in any event
it would be the last business before the Easter
recess.
Mr. Chairman The motion is that the election
of the delegation to Canada be the last business
before the Easter recess.
Mr. Higgins I am not trying to obstruct the
progress of the House, but I understand that it was
something of a similar nature to the last one and
it was acted upon immediately. Is this going to be
regarded as discourteous or not? This is merely a
thought, not that it matters to me much, but it
would look a little discourteous. I would like the
members to think that over before they make a
decision.
Mr. Harrington May I point out that there was
no other business before the House at the time?
Mr. Chairman I ask you to consider the point
that has been suggested by Mr. Higgins.
Mr. Hannon I would like to also suggest that
previous to the election of the delegation to London every member of this Convention
was fully
aware of the fact that the election was to take
place, I am not sure, but I think at least two days
previous.
Mr. Chairman I don't think that is correct, Mr.
Harmon. I gave nobody any information about it
until I brought the document into this chamber.
Mr. Vardy If you remember, I came in a little
late and those who refused to be nominated were
sitting at the table and I did not know what they
were sitting there for then. I did not know what it
was all about.
Mr. Hannon I must admit I did not get it from
you, sir, but from hearsay.
Mr. Chairman I believe there were some
suspicions, and that was because the House was
called together when there was apparently no
business to go ahead with.
Mr. Crosbie It is my opinion that we are wast
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 453
ing time and playing petty politics. Let's clean
this up and be done with it now.
Mr. Newell I am agreeable to anything, but I am
not very diplomatic about it, and I am not going
to try to be. I believe Mr. Penney said there has
been a lot of talk about the previous delegation. I
feel, personally, that if we, without any preconceived notions or knowledge of this
thing, have
this election now that there will be no excuse for
talk whatever, and I am heartily sick of even
hearing politics.
Mr. Chairman Is the House ready for the question? The motion is that the election of the delegation
to Canada be deferred until the Report of the
Committee on Public Health and Welfare has
been received, and in any case to be the last
business of the house prior to the Easter recess.
Those who are in favour of that motion please say
"aye," contrary "nay". I think the "nays" have it.
I declare the motion lost. Now, gentlemen, we
have this document before us. Is it your pleasure
that we do now resolve ourselves into a committee of the whole for the purpose of
holding this
election? If so I will receive a motion for that.
Mr. Chairman It has been moved and seconded
that this House do now resolve itself into a committee of the whole to elect the delegation
to
Ottawa. The motion is that I do now leave the
Chair.
[The motion carried and the Convention resolved into a committee of the whole]
Mr. Chairman Now, there are six delegates to
be elected. Each member can vote for six members. If he votes for five, or four or
three, his ballot
is a perfectly good one, but if he votes for seven
his ballot must be rejected. Possibly there are
some members who are not desirous of being
members of that delegation, if so would they
please come and sit in the center of the room.
Those who can't sit at the table will please sit in
the easy chairs at the back of the room. Mr.
Newell, Major Cashin, and Mr. Hickman, I want
you to help in the scrutinising, and also Mr.
Penney; these will be enough, with the Secretary.
Before you cast your ballots is there any further
information that any member requires? If so, I
will be glad to furnish it if it is in my power.
Mr. Harrington When we elected the delegation to London there was some talk about the fact
that the newspaper reporters were excluded and
the radio represented.
Mr. Chairman We can't allow any but the officials of the House here. The radio operators are
officials of the House.
Mr. Penney Another matter, it is definitely understood that the delegation from England will
return before this delegation goes to Canada?
Mr. Chairman That is the resolution, Mr. Penney, there is no question about that. Now, will the
secretaries please count the members present.
There are 37. Call off the names to be sure. Will
you all please sit down somewhere and remain
there until your names are called....
Mr. Chairman Now, will you take a list of the
gentlemen who are in the running?
Mr. MacDonald May I ask a question? There
are six appointed to go to England, can any of
these six go to Canada too?
Mr. Chairman I know of no rule under which
they can be excluded. I understand that there will
be two alternates; they will be the seventh and
eighth candidates on the ballot, but you only vote
for six, remember. Now check off the members
who are eligible. The members who are in their
seats are the members who are eligible, I understand.
[The Secretary read the names of the members to be voted on: Messrs. MacDonald, Starker,
Jones, Ballam, Penney, Roddy, Vincent, Higgins, Smallwood, Crummey, Burry, Miller,
Fogwill, McCormack, Ashbourne, Bailey, Vardy, Job]
Mr. Chairman Has anybody been left out?
Very well. When you complete your ballots,
gentlemen, please hand them in.
[After the ballots were counted, the Chairman announced the result]
Mr. Chairman Gentlemen, there are five
elected: Messrs. Higgins, Ashboume, Small-
wood, Job and Burry. Messrs. Ballam and Crummey have tied for sixth place. The eighth
place
has been secured by Mr. Starkes, so he will be the
second alternate. You will now ballot on Mr.
Ballam and Mr. Crummey, that is to say who will
be the sixth of the delegation and who will be the
first alternate.
[The result of the ballot was that Mr. Ballam took sixth place on the delegation and
Mr. Crummey became first alternate]
Mr. Chairman Moved and seconded that the
delegation to Ottawa do consist of Messrs. Hig
454 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
gins, Ashbourne, Smallwood, Job, Burry and
Ballam as members of the delegation, with
Messrs. Crumrney and Starkes as first and second
alternates. Those in favour please say "aye", con
trary "nay" — motion carried.
[The committee of the whole rose and reported the election of the delegation. The
Convention adopted the report]
Report of the Public Health and Welfare Committee:[1]
Committee of the Whole
Mr. Starkes ....I would like to make it plain to
the people of this country about the old age
pension of fishermen. They are entitled to an old
age pension when they get to 75 years even if they
are earning up to $25 a month, and even if they
have up to $400 in the bank. That is something I
don't think the majority of the people in this
country realised before, at least in our region. I
am speaking from experience because there are
several in that district who applied for the pension
and have been turned down on that account. I
would like them to understand that they can legally get it.
Mr. Hillier I am in the same boat as Mr. Starkes.
I mentioned quite recently that I had a letter from
my district — Lamaline — on the old age pensions, and by reason of the fact that this
man had
a small amount of money through selling some
property he was denied that pension.
Mr. Vincent I would refer you for a moment to
page 22 of the report: "To be eligible for the
pension a man must have passed the age of 75.
On his death his widow receives $18 per quarter
if she has reached the age of 65 years." I submit
that this old age pension scheme needs revision.
I regret that no practical recommendations to this
effect are to be found in this otherwise very fine
report. It seems just tragic that so little consideration is given the honest, hard-working
fisherman
and his wife, who for years have toiled and slaved
at their calling to give us this heritage of Newfoundland. I am not proud, I feel
ashamed that
these fishermen who have spent 30 or 40 years at
the cod fishery, and somenmes years at the seal
fishery as well, should derive so little from their
labour. Something is wrong, something should be
done by the people that legislate in this country.
I submit that your Committee would have been
justified in bringing in, and I am sure this Convention would have approved of it,
a recommendation to lower the age limit to 65 or at least 70
years, and augment the pension, or double it from
the amount it is now. My friends have no bank
accounts, and very little life insurance, but by the
grace of God and the apparent hardihood of your
race, if you live to be 75 then your very grateful
country may recognise your years of service and
hardship and patriotism, and you will get for the
rest of your days the magnificent sum of 19 and
3/4 cents per day!
Mr. Jones Mr. Chairman, I have not spoken to
this report because I would rather listen to the
next fellow and get his ideas. I see that $1 million
has been spent for dole this year.
It was stated here yesterday that a man in need
did not have as much trouble in some districts as
he did in others to get relief. I wonder why? In
speaking of relieving officers I know they have
instructions from the Department of Public
Health and Welfare to keep down expenses, and
I also know they have instructions to see that no
man starves. I wonder how far on that road of
starvation does a man have to go before he can
get a note from the officer to relieve him from
that starvation? I think that there should be something definite about it. All relieving
officers
should have their instructions and should treat the
people in the same way. I know there are people
here who are fasting since this is the Lenten
season, but they are not fasting because the
Church tells them it is right, but because they
have not the food. I know instances of that, and I
think there should be something tangible in order
that people may get relief.
In speaking of sick people, I wonder what a
man has to do when he is sick before he can get
relief? I suppose he has to get a note from the
doctor, and then when that man recovers how is
the relieving officer to know that he is fit to work
to cut off the funds?
Mr. Ashbourne In reply to Mr. Jones, the
department has set up outport representatives
known as relieving officers, to whom any man
who is in need can apply. When these men,
whether sick or poor or destitute, apply to the
relieving officer he gets in touch with the depart
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 455
ment in St. John's and gets his instructions from
the department. They have certain standing orders from the department, and I have
always
maintained that a relieving officer should have
not only some initiative on his own part, but some
power to grant relief in cases of destitution. It
might be, perhaps, that in certain cases it might
be abused, but certainly the department could
check on the relieving officer; but naturally this
relief has to be given out, as in the past, in larger
quantities in certain sections to a great number of
people, and they have to have certain other rather
stringent rules and regulations. That is the set-up
in the outports, any man can approach a relieving
officer in his district; and I know some cases
where the relieving officers are Rangers, and they
forward on to the department the applications and
need for relief as it arises. As you can see from
the figures given there has not been much relief
up until quite recently in the outports, but as the
winter months move along the people become
destitute, they have no money, no credit, and no
means of providing themselves with food, and
they have to apply to the relieving officer; and,
as was pointed out last night, in certain sections,
in White Bay for instance, where the trap fishery
has failed for two years following, these people
have just carried themselves along as far as they
can. I think that the department is sympathetic
towards these applications and, while each application has to be studied on its merits,
the
amount of earning power that a man has during
the summertime and what avenues he has tried to
secure employment, all these factors have to be
ascertained and studied. As far as I know they are
submitted to the department in St. John's and they
get their orders from the official here who looks
after outport relief and deals with the cases as
they come up.
Mr. Ballam ... If a male is receiving a pension
and he has a wife, on his decease the whole thing
is forgotten unless she goes through the whole
rigamarole all over again and has the relieving
officer and the doctor state that she is eligible for
the pension, and then she has to wait six months
after his death. In nine cases out of ten the people
are too old or too poor to bother about it. They
don't get it until the whole thing is gone over. We
should recommend that this should be automatic.
Mr. Ashbourne That has been my experience in
the past. I have filled out quite a few applications
for old age pensions, etc. They can certainly find
out by sending out a questionnaire to every old
age pensioner who is married and ascertain the
age of his wife; when the man dies, the cheque is
immediately returned to the department and, as
has been said, application has to be made. As
soon as the application is made the cheque is sent
forward, and if it happens to miss a quarter the
past quarter is included with the next one. That's
been my experience.... These old age pensions
are marked "payable in advance" whatever that
means. I know of a case or two where people have
died after the beginning of the quarter, and have
been alive at the 1st of April when the cheque is
supposed to be issued. If the person is in St.
John's and alive on the 1st of April he gets a
cheque, and if he happens to die when the cheque
was received in the outports, on the 4th or 5th, the
cheque is sent back to the department; and I have
had one or two cases where they have paid that
cheque in order to give the benefit of the money
for burial purposes. I quite agree with that point,
and I don't see why a better plan could not be
worked out as regards the age of the widow. It is
the practice of the department to send out once or
twice a year for a certificate showing that the old
age pensioner and his wife are still alive. That's
done so that nobody else would be getting the
cheques....
That age limit of 65 is strictly adhered to, and
there are cases where the widow may be 62 or 63
and has had to have her name entered on the
widow's list instead of becoming eligible for the
old age pension, and is therefore looked after by
the fund for widows, orphans and the infirm. I
don't know if that answers your question. I am in
full sympathy with the idea that the pension age
should be lowered. When I was introducing this
report I mentioned that in my remarks. We have
no authority to make any change in this age limit,
it is a matter for the government. I know that to
these elderly people, particularly the fishermen
and others who have helped build up the
economy of Newfoundland throughout the years,
this amount, even if very small, is a help to them,
and I am in sympathy with the remarks of Mr.
Ballam.
Mr. Vincent Thank you very much for that explanation. Are the relieving inspectors making
periodic visits to the outport districts? If so how
many are there?
456 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
Mr. Smallwood I am not going to delay you at
all, but a minute ago Mr. Jones referred to that
amount of $1.1 million as being dole. That's not
quite the case. It is $1.1 million for this year, but
it is not all able-bodied relief or dole; it is for the
sick poor, for widows, children, for special food
orders, extra nourishment that is, and coal and
clothing. That $1.1 million is for this year to the
end of March. Now if you take the report and add
up the different things under the different headings it is astonishing, and I am sure
if Major
Cashin has not already done it he will be
astonished when he sees what the total comes to
— $1.1 million for those items I have just mentioned. Widows and orphans, including
board
and lodging, is another $450,000; old age pensions $250,000; grants to orphanages
$40,000
odd; aged and infirm $78,000 — that's a total of
$2 million this very year for relief of one kind and
another —if you can call old age pensions relief,
and perhaps you should not, but it is in that
general classification — $2 million a year. Now
in the old days the sick poor and widows and
children of widows and special food orders, coal
and clothing, that was all called dole. You take
the figures today and you can find there are only
300-400 people on the dole. That seems to compare very well with six or eight years
ago, but the
reason is this, that they have changed the system.
What is now called dole is only able-bodied
relief, but in the old days up to the war everything
was called dole, and if you included everything
today in the year that ended yesterday the government spent $2 million on public relief.
It is an
astonishing figure.
Mr. Fudge I have had some experience in getting applications forwarded to the Department of
Public Health and Welfare, especially with the
relieving officer. As I see it this widow that was
referred to here is entitled to the $18 per quarter,
provided that she is not one that in the opinion of
the relieving officer can support herself. I
remember a case or two where the widow has
been living with the son, and the son has a large
family, and in the opinion of the relieving officer
the son could very well look after the mother as
well as his wife and children, and the OK from
the relieving officer did not go on the form. If
that's the principle of the Department of Public
Health and Welfare, that this poor old soul must
go over with the son, and he has to support his
mother along with his family, I am wondering if
that principle should not apply even to the official
of the department. If I am correctly informed
there are officials of this department who have
been recommended for a pension. I wonder
whether any investigation was made as to
whether any of the sons of these officials are able
to look after them, and therefore why the pension?
Mr. Bailey I don't know if Mr. Smallwood
meant that old age pensions etc. should be called
dole. I think it is to our discredit that the country
is in such a shape as it is, and I don't believe it
should go down as such, or that the country
should get the impression that it is. If a man gets
sick the government has a fund for that, which is
called social security. Dole should be able-
bodied relief and nothing else — for the man who
can work, but can't get work to do.
Mr. Smallwood I did not call the old age pension dole, I said that generally under the heading
of relief we might include old age pensions. I
expressed some doubt as to whether old age
pensions could even be included under relief, I
was not even talking of dole at that moment. I
think that you can almost measure the civilisation
of a country by the extent to which that country
looks after its womout toilers. They say you can
measure the standards of a country by the way in
which we bury our dead, but you can certainly
measure it by the way in which the womout
toilers are treated.
Mr. Bailey Well, we have called relief dole in
the past, and dole relief, but I would like to see in
this the amount that the people received who
would have worked, but could not on account of
sickness, and I would like to see it classified as
social security.
Mr. Ashbourne Referring to that matter
brought up by Mr. Fudge, was that widow you
mentioned the widow of an old age pensioner? I
can't understand how they can grant a man and
his wife a pension, and then take away the pension from the wife after the man who
was her sole
support was taken away. I think that calls for
special investigation with the department.
Mr. Starkes I think his wife was living, but
instead of getting $30 a quarter he was only
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 457
getting $18 and if his widow did not apply for the
old age pension within six months she did not get
it. She has to apply within six months from the
death of her husband to get it.
Mr. Fudge In the case to which I referred, this
widow, I don't think her husband had a pension,
was seeking the widow's mite, but because in the
opinion of the relieving officer her son could
support her, which I think was incorrect, I took
the matter up myself here in St. John's, and
settled the matter satisfactorily for the lady, but
no thanks to the relieving officer.
[The Secretary read the next section on Child Welfare and War Pensions. The committee
then adjourned until 8 pm]
Mr. Burry Before the debate begins, I would
like to point out an error in the
Daily News report
of yesterday aftemoon's debate. I refer to what
was said by Mr. Smallwood when he was speaking of the infant mortality rate in Labrador.
As
you will recall he pointed out that there were
several districts in Newfoundland and Labrador
which had a high rate, other districts had a low
rate. He mentioned one district where medical
services were not up to the highest and yet that
district had a very low infant mortality. He said
there was a member in the Convention representing that district. Apparently the reporter
concluded that that district was Labrador. He refers
to it in the write-up: "In Labrador where the infant
mortality is lowest, medical facilities are almost
nil." There are two errors. The district where the
infant mortality rate is lowest is not Labrador —
I wish it were. Also, describing the medical services in Labrador as almost nil is
just not the way
to describe them. I do not want to give you the
impression that we are satisfied in Labrador with
the medical services we have. I do not suppose
any part of the island is satisfied. But we do have
medical services. As you will recall, it was
pointed out that there are three hospitals; we have
a motor ship travelling up and down the coast
during the summer. We have a nursing station at
Forteau, there was a new institution put up there
last year. Some of our people are also in close
proximity to the RCAF in Goose Bay and we get
medical services from these people, and supplies
too. Missionaries in the north, while not graduate
doctors, have some training along those lines and
have given good service. All in all, our medical
services are not too bad in Labrador. I would like
to point that out because I am sure that the
reporter probably misunderstood Mr. Smallwood
when he made that statement. I am sure he will
be happy to make a correction in the interest of
keeping the record straight.
Mr. Chairman The sections read this afternoon
are now open for debate.
Mr. Vardy Mr. Chairman, as a member who
signed this report, and more particularly as chairman of the sub-committee responsible
for the
welfare section, I can do no other than agree that
this gives you the picture as presented to us, and
we have endeavoured to make the comments
necessary to give the country our unbiased views
regarding whether or not many of these huge
expenditures are fairly or equally made, considering not only the peculiar wishes
of the ex-
serviceman or other applicant, but the ability of
our purse to undertake such lavish commitments
on these doubtful schemes.
Let us take the report section by section. In the
health section we find the department has done
an enormous amount of good by bringing the
total number of hospitals in this country to 39 plus
nine nursing stations. The General Hospital is
now one of the best in North America, both as to
building, equipment and skill. There is a shortage
of nurses, due partly to so many of our girls
joining the Canadian services or obtaining more
remunerative employment elsewhere, but in the
main because of the refusal of the department to
step up the beginner's salary in proportion to the
trained personnel or the higher income brackets.
It means a real sacrifice today for a girl to
spend three years in training, which in reality is
three years hard work and not going to school as
some would suggest. Owing to the serious dearth
of trained nurses, instead of being in a lecture-
room they are almost continually doing full-time
duty for 12 hours a day or night. They are trying
to study when they should be resting. I realise this
is unavoidable for the present, and will be for
many years to come unless those responsible
learn the definition of justice, and face the undeniable realisation that we are living
in an age
of social reform when every labourer is worthy
of his or her just and reasonable hire.
The cottage hospitals are a grand thing if we
458 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
had a population of five or ten million people to
support them. They are giving splendid service.
I will say reasonably commensurate with the cost
of operating, in some respects inadequate but in
every way out of proportion to our capacity to
pay. We have them now and are building more,
but with our very scattered population the most
we can afford for many years to come is an
increase in our doctors and nursing services
throughout the country. What we need most is a
sound consciousness of the basic factors of our
real problem. Spend half the money we are
spending on hospitals, Markiands, boglands,
Humber Valley projects and other crazy
schemes, on subsidising boat building, a bonus to
men who are farm-minded for clearing their own
land, of say $100 an acre, and in two years the
country will have several thousand more engaged
in each of these occupations and will be $4 million better off than we are today,
instead of spending to create huge insurmountable problems for
future governments and generations unborn.
The "Impact Upon Disease" has been tackled
seriously and the department deserves commendations for their efforts in this direction.
But the
lack of statistics is inexcusable when the whole
country knows this division was amply staffed to
keep them. It is a hopeful sign to find that tuberculosis is on the decrease and it
is common
knowledge that the Dominions Office has always
taken a serious View of the effect of this dread
disease upon our people. The noteworthy contribution of the TB Association
[1] is evi-dence of
our deep consciousness of our responsibility as
citizens. The work of the Division of Visual
Education as a means of combating this silent
menace will contribute in no small way toward
checking at the source the unnecessary spreading
of the disease. We have given due credit for what
has been done but we cannot overlook the cost.
The amount of $6 million plus the Public Works
expenditure for the department is a terrific burden
for this little country to carry. In fact under normal conditions we cannot hope to
survive under
such a load.
In spite of what has been said on the
favourable side of the balance sheet, the question
the whole country is asking is, "Are we getting
fair value for the money spent? And can we get
as good or better value for the same or less
money?" In my checking of the various statistics,
and observations through the various departments and institutions, my conclusions
are that
this can be done, but not while under the control
of unscrupulous individuals whose political
records are black chapters in this country and
who should never have been put in positions of
trust, but who in my opinion acquired the position
through a betrayal of the people's trust. Any
Commissioner who would knowingly withhold
four days pension or any part of it belonging to
the war veterans of this country is not fit to hold
this office, and in my opinion, and I have good
evidence on this, it would never have been paid
had it not been for pressure brought upon him
from the Auditor-General. It has been stated that
certain investigations are in progress; these have
been in progress for several years, and in my
opinion will still be in progress when the Convention dies, and in the interval between
then and
a general election they will have a grand opportunity to cover up their dirty tracks.
If the Dominions Office had wanted a fair, true
picture of what has been happening in this
country they should have recalled the Commission, and appointed a provisional government
with the understanding that it held office only
until Newfoundland decided on her future form
of government. It is no use denying we have been
handicapped for information from some quarters,
and that some received has not been authentic.
When we rechecked we found the figures were
questionable.
The veterans' section of the report gives the
people of this country the most disgraceful picture they were ever asked to view.
Those responsible for the first scheme, which I am informed
has been changed six times, must be mentally
unbalanced and in any case cannot know the
definition of justice. The figures before you are
self-explanatory and speak for themselves. I feel
it my bounden duty to appeal to the Commissioner for Home Affairs to cease further
action
under this senseless scheme at once, and if it has
been modified or changed six times, in the name
of justice and the veterans frame a scheme immediately on true democratic principles
of equal
rights to all and special privileges to none. We
did not expect any special privileges when we
went over, we would all have been satisfied if we
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 459
had not received any on return. There may be
extenuating circumstances where compassionate
allowances would have had to be made, but the
whole ex-serviceman's school of thought is
broad along these lines and no unjust criticisms
would have been offered for any such action.
Mr. Smallwood I am not going to delay the
House, but before this report passes the committee of the whole, I think it is only
fair to say a
word or two about it. I think it is also only fair to
say a word or two about the business of the
Department of Public Health and Welfare. This
Convention cannot possibly do its work without
taking very close account of this department.
They are spending $6 million a year. The Committee is of the unanimous opinion that
in the
years to come they will have to go on spending
$6 million a year, at least.
It is pointed out by the Committee that although certain items of expense in the Department
of Public Health and Welfare may come
down because the value of the dollar may go up
— the same amount of money will buy more —
on that account the cost of running the department may fall. Although that is true
on the one
hand, on the other hand the new extensions and
new institutions that the department is putting in
for the next year or two will drive the cost of
running these institutions up again. The additional cost will equal the saving they
may make on
the purchases of supplies and materials in the
public institutions. So for that reason, the Committee is unanimous in the opinion
that the future
government of Newfoundland, whatever that
government may be, had just as well face up to it
that itis going to require at least $6 million dollars
a year to run the Department of Public Health and
Welfare, not counting what used to be called dole
in this country, but is now known as able-bodied
relief; we have today practically none — none
worth speaking of. If we should have it in the next
few years, then the cost of able-bodied relief must
be tacked on to that $6 million.
Now, Mr. Chairman, speaking for myself and
not for the Committee, I have to say that the
growth of the public services of this country
insofar as they have to do with social and welfare
services is a thing that needed to be done. I feel
like giving the Commission of Government
praise.... In health and welfare, especially in
health, they do deserve praise. I think the people
will think better of us if we give them the credit
due them and the people will then be more likely
to pay attention when we knock them where they
should be knocked.
As Major Cashin has said, they have gone
from 500 employees of all kinds 12 years ago to
1,400 today. They have gone from $2.75 million
a year to $6 million today. Since 1934 they have
spent $45 million in that one department. $18
million of that was spent on public relief — not
dole, not able-bodied relief, but all forms of
public relief. The second largest item of expenditure since 1934 is $7.5 million in
salaries; the
third largest was pensions, principally for World
War I — $7.5 millions in 13 years. Fourth is the
same amount and is for maintenance of their own
hospitals — $6 million, not counting salaries.
That was for drugs, food and equipment. Then
they spent $1 million since 1934 to help out
privately-owned hospitals. Then they spent
$500,000 in those 13 years to help out the orphanages. That brings you up to $33 million.
The
remainder comes under various headings. On top
of that they are going to spend $65 million in the
next year or two: $250,000 on the General Hospital; $2.5 million to build a practically
new mental
hospital; $200,000 for a new home for nurses;
$750,000 to build a home for the aged and infirm;
$500,000 to build seven new cottage hospitals;
$2.5 million to build a new sanatorium on the
west coast. When the new west coast sanatorium
is built, even though they have the old one on
Topsail Road and the new one is opened, all the
doctors who are authorities on TB who came
before us agreed that there will still be a need for
more. When these new institutions are built, it is
going to run it up $1.25 million extra expenditure
over and above the $6 million a year they are
spending today. Let the Committee say, and I
agree, that the government is doing right in introducing and expanding these social
services and
they must go further.
I suggest to Major Cashin, who has one of the
most onerous and responsible jobs as chairman
of the Finance Committee, that if I were here in
opposition and Major Cashin was standing over
there as Minister of Finance, I would plead with
him to put down at least $6 million dollars for this
social service and social welfare vote in that
department; not counting what he would have to
put down for dole, if, God forbid, there should be
460 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
any dole in the next few years. When Major
Cashin brings in the Finance Report showing the
prospective expenditure, let him start off by
saying that $6 million a year is the amount the
government has to spend, and not a cent less, on
social welfare.
Referring to this section "Impact on Disease"
— we are talking only to Newfoundland people
and let us face it. It was only in the second last
government (of which Major Cashin was a member) that they brought in the Health and
Welfare
Act. In the next government — the Alderdice
government — that was acted upon a little further. When the Commission came in with
some
money from the British Treasury they went further. This has started in the last 15
or 16 years
only, and since that attention has been paid to
social services and social welfare. Because it is
new we have a lot of leeway to make up before
we catch up with other countries in the standard
of social services. There is not a man here who
would suggest it is wrong for the government to
give more and more attention to social welfare.
I do honestly and sincerely congratulate the
Commission of Government upon expanding —
not starting — what the Squires government
began, and what the Alderdice government continued. We in Newfoundland have become
more
prosperous in the last five or six years thanks to
the war, when the money began to flow in, and
we began to give the Commission of Government
more money in taxes. I congratulate them for
spending more on public health. It is a trend in
the right direction....
Mr. Butt As we had some discussion on the
Lady Anderson about the justification for the
money spent on her, I would like to ask just one
more question, has the
Lady Anderson any X-ray
equipment? I am thinking of TB and the possibility of doing an enormous amount of
good if
the X-ray equipment were installed on that
Lady
Anderson.
Mr. Ashbourne In replying to Mr. Butt's question, I might say there is no X-ray equipment on
the
Lady Anderson. I quite appreciate the fact that
it would be a good idea to equip this vessel with
an X-ray....
Mr. Butt When we were discussing the opening
of the new sanatorium on Topsail Road there
seemed to be some doubt as to whether there were
any more patients in the hospital since the new
building has been opened. Is there any difficulty
in the way? Why are there not more patients?
Mr. Ashbourne I have here a letter from Dr.
Bennett. There are now 350 patients at the
Sanatorium; 250 of these are in the new naval
hospital; 150 patients were transferred out of the
former sanatorium and 100 new patients have
been admitted There are still 100 patients in the
old hospital, making a total of 350 now left. The
new hospital, which was taken over from the
Canadian naval authorities, will hold 35 more
and these will be admitted soon, making a total
of 285. These new patients will be admitted as
soon as staff is available. There are 100 patients
now in the former sanatorium and 130 will be
admitted after renovation; which will then give
capacity to the old sanatorium of 230 — which
added to the 285 capacity of the naval hospital,
will give a grand total of 515 patients. Further
accommodation above this figure will need new
construction of the wings of the naval hospital....
One point as regards the Sanatorium, it seems
to me that they have only a skeleton crew of
nurses. It is a sad affair. lt seems to me there is
great danger of some of these nurses being run
off their feet. Some of the patients I spoke to there
had been in the nursing service, and picked up the
germ and have become victims and naturally they
require hospitalisation. There is a big shortage of
nurses....
Mr. Butt I wonder if the Committee gave consideration to the question of care or follow-up
treatment of people who have been in the
Sanatorium?.... In my opinion one of the most
hopeful signs that I have seen as far as welfare is
concerned in the last few years is the organisation
of the TB Association, for the reason that it has
grown out of the people of Newfoundland and is
not a purely governmental organisation. It involves a principle which to me is of
the utmost
importance, that it is out of the people themselves
must grow all the institutions which will make
Newfoundland better and increase her social welfare developments.
Mr. Ashbourne I do not know definitely what
follow-up treatment the doctors have as regards
the patients, but I would take it that in these
institutions they have some such plan. In the
Notre Dame Bay Memorial Hospital at Twillingate, every patient who leaves that institution
is
given a slip signed by Dr. Olds advising what that
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 461
patient should do for a certain period.... I take it
that is the standard practice in any up-to-date
hospital and I presume the same thing is done in
the Sanatorium. There is a need to follow up these
cases, to find out how they are getting on. Unless
we have these statistics with regard to the number
of active TB cases and the number of cures effected and of people who can enter into
profitable
employment, how do we know what progress we
are making? I hope and trust that Public Health
and Welfare will in future make an annual report,
so that the people would have a clear and
thorough picture of the activities of the department and the inroads it is making
upon disease...
I believe that the work of the Committee on
Public Health and Welfare would have been
greatly helped if we had had annual reports. It is
a practice of certain sub-divisions of government
to make annual reports to the Commissioner in
charge. I strongly suggest that this matter should
be taken up.... We are laymen when it comes to
making reports on these things We do the best
we can. But when it comes to medical terms and
disease terms, it is the doctors themselves who
can put in black and white the facts of the inroads
on disease.
Mr. Newell I wonder if that is entirely what Mr.
Butt had in mind I take it he was not referring to
people coming back to the hospital to get subsequent treatment. I wonder if he had
in mind the
economic condition — the means of earning a
living. An arrested case of TB has to go back to
engage in a type of work not conducive to the
good health of persons who have just come out
of TB hospital. I do not think it is done in this
country along these lines. In one or two cases I
know they have been provided employment, but
that has been done on their behalf by other or
ganisations in the north. This is another case
where the whole public health and welfare system ties up with the economic position.
I think
we have the wrong outlook towards the expenditure of public monies. Take cottage hospitals
—
if they do cost $20,000 to $25,000 a year, what is
that? I suppose there are households, not to mention hospitals, who get through that
amount of
money a year. The question we have to face, and
very soon, is why do we have so much TB? Why
do we have relief? And somebody says it is partly
attributable to the standard of living. The standard of living is low, why? Is that
something that
is going to be dependent on a particular form of
government or is it dependent on us, the people?
Who do we have to blame?Â
Mr. Newell Perhaps we can blame them. I think
it goes even deeper than that. Our whole
economic system is antiquated and whenever you
suggest a minor alteration somebody thinks you
are crazy. Unless we can check the economic
problem we are not going to make any great
strides in public health and welfare and we will
always need to spend huge sums on both. I suggest that whether or not we can afford
it, if we are
not prepared to get to work and change the
economic position of this country, at least the
economic system, if we are not prepared to do
something drastic. then we had better make up
our minds that we have to afford these expenditures. The people do not want anybody's
sympathy, but we have to tackle this problem from a
realistic point of view. When we can provide an
economic system that will give a decent standard
of living we may be able to look forward to lower
expenditures on public health and welfare. Until
we do that, we have to make up our minds that it
must come from somewhere; even if we have to
do without some things to provide $6 million, it
has to be provided.
Mr. Northcott Speaking of TB, we have to get
at the root of it. First, the government should see
that every hotel, boarding house and restaurant
has hot and cold water. Where there are no toilets
inside, the ones outside should be treated with
chlorine which will kill flies which carry the
germs. I think if the chairman of the Committee
would stress that point to the Public Health and
Welfare Department, they will have done something worthwhile.
Mr. Bailey raised a very important point when
he mentioned the
Northern Ranger carrying sick
people. Sick people should be segregated from
other passengers, especially if a patient is carrying the germ of TB. It is a terrible
thing to have
those patients among two or three others....
Speaking of the report, it is a mass of figures
and a few hours' job to grasp them, so I would
more or less leave them as they are. I congratulate
the members on the report. I am sure they put a
lot of time and energy into it. Going back to the
able-bodied relief which was spoken about —
this $100,000 spent on fuel for the sick relief,
462 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
$50,000 in St. John's and $50,000 in the outports.
I wonder if the chairman could give us some idea
of what districts this $50,000 was spent in?
Mr. Ashbourne I am unable to give that breakdown this evening, but we may be able to get
those figures. As regards the inspection of hotels
and restaurants, the department has supervision
over restaurants and the people who work in
them. As regards isolation wards on steamers, I
think that is an excellent point. I think there is a
sick bay on the
Kyle.
[1] I think in the construction
of the new boats now in process of being built it
would be a good idea to have places on them for
sick people. We are a maritime country — lots of
people cannot get to a doctor in hospital without
taking passage by boat and it is sometimes very
necessary for them to try and reach hospital to see
whether or not they can be cured. They have no
way of travelling, oftentimes, except by these
boats. As pointed out by Mr. Miller, it is certainly
too bad when these people who are going to seek
hospitalisation are, through no fault of their own,
forced to occupy staterooms with other passengers who are travelling. When I see the
manager of the Railway, Mr. Russell, I will make
that suggestion.
Mr. MacDonald Page 27 of this report — Veterans' Affairs — something struck me very forcibly: "With
regard to the men of the merchant
navy, they appear to have been discriminated
against. Those who were not recruited through
the agents of the Ministry of Shipping received
no consideration whatsoever, while those who
were so enlisted for foreign service for the duration, unless disabled, received only
a small fraction of the benefits of other units, many of them
as low as one fifth of the lowest amounts given
other members of the forces...." It just shows
what short memories governments have. Here
you have a body of men whose help was largely
instrumental in the winning of the war. These
men carried quantities of munitions, food, etc.
without which no war could have been won. I do
not think any member of any other service will
deny that they took exceptional risks in doing this
work. Yet when the war is all over, they are
forgotten. I wonder if the Committee asked why
the men of the merchant navy were discriminated
against?
Mr. McCarthy I would like to say I was going
to make that point. I would like to add further, we
find in this report—Civil Re-establishment plan,
under Veterans' Affairs — under plan A, $4,000
to $6,000 is being Spent for higher education;
under plan B, ex-servicemen who want to settle
in their own areas on a farm are entitled to approximately $2,500; we find a man starting
a
small business and he gets about $500. I am not
supporting all the accusations made by Mr.
Vardy, but we also find fishermen who stay home
and want to go fishing will get $500, and if he
needs an engine, for instance, he will possibly get
$700. We find in the Fisheries Report that our
fisheries are still the economy of our country.
Yet, as Mr. Vardy stated, these men wore the
same uniform, they fought on the same front and
still they are only entitled to $500 to $700. I
wonder if your Committee enquired as to why
that decision was made as regards these different
rates?
Mr. Ashbourne I would ask Mr. Vardy to
answer that question. He was a member of the
merchant navy during the war and was chairman
of the sub-committee.
Mr. Vardy I think Mr. Ashbourne will agree
that it is simple for me to answer these questions.
From the very start I kept up my interviews and
consultations with various men in connection
with this scheme. As far as the merchant navy
men are concerned, Mr. MacDonald will be
surprised to know that out of 3,000 men, only
about 60 received anything, and some of them as
low as $20. We have that evidence from no less
a person than the Director of Civil Re-establishment.
Mr. Vardy Yes, 60. Now they have the scheme
changed. They give these men, if they are on
relief, a limited amount of unemployment
benefit. The limited of these men can get, if they
served from 1939-45, is $700. That is the top
limit. These men signed the same articles that
men signed in the Royal Navy, the RAF or the
Royal Artillery. They had to sign in triplicate up
here at the Newfoundland Railway office or at
Bowring's office — forms to the effect they were
volunteering for the duration, unless disabled. I
have these forms, I signed them myself. The men
of the merchant navy did a good job and the men
of the tug service did a good job and are deprived
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 463
now of any benefits. Finally they were informed
the scheme had been changed and they were
going to be given benefits under the land clearing
scheme. I know a number of men in the merchant
navy who, with this understanding, spent the last
cent they had cutting down brush, made preparations for tractors to come in and clear
the land;
and during the time they were doing this work,
trying to take advantage of these benefits, the
scheme was changed and the merchant navy men
and the tug service men who landed the troops in
France for the invasion, these men were deprived
of all benefits except under the fishery assistance
scheme. Some of these men got as low as $100
to $140. One man told me he could qualify for
$140, and he was a married man who left his
family to go over there to serve.
The unemployment scheme is made to suit
each individual case. I was told they regarded it
as compassionate allowance. If a person happens
to come in and is hard up they will give him the
amount of unemployment benefit.
In reference to the questions asked by Mr. Butt
and Mr. Newell in connection with the
Sanatorium, I do know for a fact that when each
case is regarded as cured and the patient returns
home, they give the patient a form to report
periodically, and they make a special effort to get
these people to come in at certain intervals for
X-ray or check up. Eventually when cured, they
give them a certificate to that effect. They do try
to keep contact with each case as it is discharged
from the institution.
Mr. McCarthy In spite of all that Mr. Vardy has
said he has not answered my question, which was
if the Committee had inquired as to why the
government should make the decision.
Mr. Vardy We did make numerous inquiries
We objected from the beginning and the Committee knows I was strong on it. The only
answer to
these enquiries was that this scheme was framed
by the Commissioner for Finance and the Commissioner for Home Affairs. The Director
of
Civil Re-establishment has the duty to carry out
the scheme as far as possible. They have no
excuse except that was the decision made by the
two Commissioners and they are powerless to
change it. We made enquiries in every detail in
connection with the scheme. I may say that the
Humber Valley scheme started from $4,000 to
$6,000. I do not think $4,000 is mentioned in our
report. The first information we had was that it
was $5,000; our final information, which was
given to the Agricultural Committee as well, was
that it was $6,000. I am informed on good
authority that $6,000 will not go near re-establishing these men. The vote is $1.3
million for
300 men.
Mr. Hillier The delegate from St. John's West
Extern made reference to the TB Association. In
doing so he intimated we had solved some of our
own problems. How many branches of the TB
Association are in Newfoundland at the present
time?
Mr. Ashbourne I believe that two branches
have already been organised — a branch at Channel and another at Comer Brook. I believe
that
the formation of a branch at Grand Falls is being
proceeded with. These are the only three
branches I know of at the moment. At the meeting
of the directors of the TB Association, of which
I am a director, the matter was discussed and I
think that in a great many of the larger outports
they would like to have branches and for those
who want them there will be a chance for a branch
to be formed.
Mr. Hillier I think that a branch properly organised and active would solve some of the TB
problem.
Mr. Butt In fairness to myself, there would
seem to be implied that I was criticising the work
done at the Sanatorium. I was thinking of the
thing pointed out by Mr. Newell, and that is the
supplying of proper kinds of work for patients
afterwards. That is important....
Mr. Penney Speaking briefly on the report I
would call attention to page 36, wherein the cost
of living index is given from 1 October 1938 to
1 March, 1947, beginning at 100 and ending up
167.6. I would like to know if this cost of living
index is really an index of the lift in prices or the
cost of things from 1938-47. Many people think
costs have lifted three times or more. I was
wondering if we could get any information on
how the index is made up; and in asking that
question I would like to say I agree with other
members regarding the very informative report
of this Public Health and Welfare Committee....
Mr. Vardy Every detail covering the cost of
464 NATIONAL CONVENTION April 1947
living index is somewhere here in the files, but
owing to the report's being limited there were
several details we felt compelled to leave out.
Mr. Ballam I must refer back to something Mr.
Butt said with regard to TB patients and what
happens to them. I had occasion to go into the
Sanatorium early last fall, and I happened to meet
a gentleman there, whom I understand has since
deceased. I refer to Mr. Conrad Fitzgerald. He
edited a magazine called
Sunbeams. It was most
interesting and informative Mr. Fitzgerald told
me that one of the big factors in the recurrence of
TB was the fact that after a patient is discharged
from hospital there is no form of rehabilitation.
In other words, he is to all intents and purposes
cured, and if he is a fisherman he must go in a
boat; if a logger, he must go in the woods. By so
doing, he is losing what it took years to build up.
Mr. Fitzgerald's idea was that there should be
some form of rehabilitation whereby those fishermen coming out of hospital could be
looked after
until they could rehabilitate themselves to the
extent where they could follow their usual vocation....
Mr. Ashbourne I agree entirely with Mr. Ballam. This problem should be tied in with our
health system. The problem of rehabilitation is
one which must be tackled because when a man
has suffered from such a disease as TB naturally
the whole body is impaired, and it stands to
reason that a man cannot undertake strenuous
work. I believe such a scheme would be money
well spent.
In reply to Mr. Penney, I wish to thank him for
his remarks on the report. I would like to say that
this matter of arriving at the monthly cost of
living index in St. John's is a rather complicated
matter as I see it. There has been a discussion on
this matter going on; you see letters in the papers.
It seems that when the index was started it was
set at 100. Staple articles, food and clothing, were
placed at certain values and when they advanced
other articles were placed on the list. When prices
advanced in grocery stores the prices were
entered and different calculations were arrived at.
They took October 1, 1938 as 100 for these
commodities as listed and eventually these
figures were arrived at. I have not changed the
figures myself....
Mr. Penney Do you not believe that the cost of
living over the last decade has been lifted a great
deal more?
Mr. Fudge It is made up for St. John's; I do not
know if the department inquired into the cost of
living in the outports. I see nothing about it. I take
it for granted that the cost of living may be higher
in St. John's than in the outports. I suppose that
is the reason for giving able-bodied relief in St.
John's at $1 1.25 per head and in the outports at
$5 per head. I suppose the cost is not so high?
Mr. Smallwood The government figures are
notoriously wrong, everyone knows that.
Mr. Ashbourne In answer to Mr. Fudge, I do
not think they have the cost of living compiled
for any outports.
Mr. Fudge The people on poor or sick relief are
expected to live on $5 — they must think the cost
of living is lower in the outports.
Mr. Vardy I would say it is not because the cost
of living is lower, but because the outports are far
away from the source of government.
Mr. Bailey I have been paying close attention
here tonight to what the members have been
talking about and I have also noticed the amounts
paid to the different returned men. I wondered
about it. I wondered why such a difference was
made in the different classes. All the men took a
chance on going over there. I do not know who
is responsible for these pensions. I have before
me a letter which I received from a returned man
and which I shall read: "At the age of 35 I enlisted
in 1939 with the Forestry Unit, later transferring
to the Royal Air Force with air sea rescue and air
crew, Bomber Command. In June, 1940, I took
part in evacuating troops from Dunkirk and
France by small boats. During the Battle of
Britain I flew as air-crew, also made 49 trips over
occupied territory up to February 7, 1945, when
we were shot down by enemy aircraft and I
received a fractured spine and fractured ribs. I
spent six months in hospital in Holland and
England and upon arrival in this country in September, 1945, I was again hospitalised
for
removal of parts of ribs. My pension has been
reduced to 20% — $28 per month — for wife and
family of three in spite of the fact that I have spent
about three months in bed with medical attention
April 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 465
for injuries since my return. I was promoted to
commissioned rank in 1944 attaining the rank of
Flying Officer upon my release in 1945. In an
effort to supplement my pension since my return,
I made application for 32 government positions
advertised and was called for nine interviews on
selection boards for junior government positions,
but was unsuccessful. The other 23 positions I
was ignored. I was successful in obtaining a
temporary position with the Tourist Board with a
small salary in the hope that some other position
would open and under present circumstances this
job will soon end. I obtained my Junior Associate
Grade at Trinity East and have three years' training at the Baptist Theological College
of Missouri, USA. My war record speaks for itself and
my civilian character can be ascertained from any
of my past employers. I was the oldest person
from Newfoundland who served in air operations
and took part in all major conflicts from the
evacuation of Dunkirk to the crossing of the
Rhine."
I am not going to say much about this because
I do not know the set-up but I believe if ever we
get a government of the people for the people, this
is something that should not happen....
Mr. Ashbourne I suggest that Mr. Bailey take
that case up with the pensions officer of the
department.
I would like to answer some of the points
brought up in the debate yesterday afternoon and
last night. Major Cashin asked about the amount
given for special food orders. The department
does not give the cost of those food orders per
district. It is in accounts rendered by supplying
merchants and they are issued on recommendation of the doctor or nurse. The question
was
asked regarding cottage hospitals, whether a doc
tor not attached to a cottage hospital and who is
working in the area has a right to send a patient
into the cottage hospital. It is understood that the
doctor in charge will treat the patients; they
charge $4 for services for hospital outside the
area. Some member asked regarding salaries of
district nurses for Harbour Breton, I believe.
Mr. Spencer I did not ask for any particular
section. I asked if there were two nurses, why
were the amounts different.
Mr. Ashbourne The $4,866.73 charged up for
Harbour Breton is the salaries of the district nurses of the area, and not in the
cottage hospital
alone. The district nurse looks after the area, of
which the hospital is the head. In regard to Mr.
Penney's question, the answer is not yet available.
[The section was adopted, and the committee then adopted the report as a whole. The
committee rose and so reporled to the Convention]
Mr. Chairman In deference to Major Cashin
who raised the question in connection with this
report, its further consideration should be
deferred.
Mr. Crosbie I move that this report be not
adopted or received until the Convention and the
public have received the full report regarding a
secret and confidential report
[1] given the members in private session.
Mr. Chairman If I may offer you a suggestion,
the best thing to do is to defer it until tomorrow.
That keeps it before the House and we can always
defer it from day to day.
Mr. Chairman Moved and seconded that this
report be deferred until tomorrow.
[The motion carried, and the Convention adjourned]
