Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, I open the meeting with some
ten members absent. I don't know whether you wish to continue with the
meeting or wait a little.
Mr. Chairman Ten, sir. By now they should all be here.
Well, if it is your wish, gentlemen, we will continue. I will ask Mr. Cashin
to explain the purpose of the meeting.
Mr. Cashin Mr. Chairman, on Thursday afternoon the Steering Committee met at the request of
the Commissioner for
Home Affairs and Education, in his office, to discuss the vacancy of
Chairman of the National Convention. Mr. Walsh pointed out that when the
National Convention Act
[2] was being formed the
government had approached Judge Fox, asking him whether or not
he would accept the chairmanship of the National Convention. That was
why it was inserted that the Chairman should be a judge of the Supreme
Court. Now Judge Fox has passed away, and we find ourselves without a
Chairman, and Mr. Walsh wanted to know what idea we had regarding the future position
of Chairman; whether the delegates would be
interested in electing their own Chairman from the members, or whether the
government would have to appoint one. If the
Convention members desire to elect one of their own delegates as
Chairman of the Convention, Mr. Walsh informed us that he felt that die
Convention Act could be amended to cover it.
That is really the object of the meeting here
this morning, to ascertain whether or not we, as
delegates, are interested in electing our own
Chairman. That is the sum and substance of what
Mr. Walsh told us the other afternoon. Now the
matter is open for discussion.
Mr. Butt I don't think that is quite precisely correct.
The idea is to explore the idea, not to limit it to any one thing. I don't
think the government has given it any real thought.
Mr. Cashin Well, I think they have, otherwise they
would not have called us. They want to know if we will do thejob or ifwe
want to throw it over on them.
Mr. Job If we do not do something they will have to
appoint a judge of the Supreme Court. It is up to us if we would rather have
one of ourselves or a judge of the Supreme Court. I am not
quite sure if he definitely states that it would have to be a member of the
Convention or not.
Mr. Job We can make all sorts of suggestions, and
whatever we decide they would try to fall in
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November 1946 line.
Mr. Crosbie If we appoint somebody from the Convention,
under the act, that Chairman will have no vote. Is that correct? In case we
appoint somebody as Chairman what about their vote then? Would not the
Chairman of the Convention be in an awkward position? He would not be
allowed to cast a vote, and he would not be able to take part in debate. I
understand the Chairman can't take part in debates.
Mr. Cashin The custom has been in the past for the
Chairman of the committees to be allowed to leave the Chair and take part in
the debate if he wanted to. If he wanted to take part in a debate he
could ask someone else to take the Chair while he took his part.
Mr. Hillier I consider it quite a responsibility. How
would they be chosen? Would it be a matter of proposing and seconding and
being carried, or would it be a secret vote?
Mr. Cashin Mr. Chairman, I hope you don't think that I
am expressing myself too much, but in ordinary parliamentary procedure the
Speaker was usually proposed by the Prime Minister and seconded in the
House by the leader of the Opposition, and was elected
unanimously. If we decided to elect a man to become Chairman who is a
member of this Convention, I think, sir, that no member would take the job
unless he had the unanimous backing of every member, and if we can't
arrive at that decision then the only thing to do is throw it back on the
government, and let them appoint someone from the Court or elsewhere. I am prepared
to take the chance and suggest that this
Convention suggest to the government that the act be amended to cover the
appointmentof one of our delegates as Chairman, and that delegate
would undoubtedly retain his vote. No man here would want to be Chairman
and lose his vote. After all he is elected by the people and would
want to vote on a matter of vital importance.
I move that this Convention suggest to the
government the changing of the Convention Act,
and that Mr. Bradley be appointed Chairman of
this Convention. I think Mr. Bradley is capable
of the job, and he is a lawyer, etc. I make the
motion that Mr. Bradley be appointed Chairman,
and that the government be asked to change the
act to cover it. The clause in the act regarding a
judge of the Supreme Court could be amended
accordingly.
Mr. Ashbourne I don't think it would be right to
deprive any member of the Convention of his vote, and my idea would be to
have him give a casting vote. I see no reason why we should not have a
member of our own Convention as a Chairman. I feel sure that in the person
of Mr. Bradley we have a man well fitted for the position, a man who
occupied the position of Attorney General of Newfoundland, and I would
like it very much if the decision could be unanimous.
Mr. Job I would like to support that, but unless the
Convention is unanimous there is not much that we can do.
Mr. Smallwood Is it the idea that we leave it to the
government to appoint Mr. Bradley?
Mr. Smallwood I have no objection to that. On the point
of a Supreme Court judge, if Mr. Winter appoints himself to the bench, as he
has every right to do, we will have on the Supreme Court bench two
judges who were ex-commissioners, one the Chief Justice and the other Mr.
Winter himself. It seems to me that it would be wrong to have as
Chairman of the Convention an ex- commissioner, an ex-member of
the government which, amongst other forms of government, have to be
reviewed by the Convention. That leaves only one Supreme Court judge, namely
Judge Dunfield. He, in addition to being a judge, is chairman of the
Housing Corporation, a very large outfit which takes up just about every
spare minute of his time when he is not doing court work, and I have
heard a rumour to the effect that it is these two difficulties, first that
two of the judges would be ex-commissioners, and second that the only
remaining judge is also extremely busy apart from his court work, which
promoted in the government the thought that perhaps the wisest thing
to do would to be repeal the clause requiring a Supreme Court judge to be
chairman. If we look around the town and around the country to find
someone who is capable of being Chairman, and in addition to being capable,
willing and with the time to spare to be Chairman, the
woods are not exactly full.
November 1946 NATIONAL CONVENTION 185
Mr. Butt I disagree entirely that the Chairman should
have not only a vote, but the casting vote. I am a bit worried about the
question of voting as far as the Chairman is concerned. I disagree also
with Mr. Smallwood when he suggests that because Mr. Winter
was a member of the Commission of Government it might be unwise to
appoint him. In that particular case there would be no doubt at all
about his impartiality, even though he has been a member of the Commission
of Government. I can see that some people in that position would not
be suitable, but I have no objection to the proposal of Major Cashin,
provided we can consider the question of voting. The Chairman would be in a
rather difFIcult position when debate gets a bit heated and he
would have to think about his position as chairman, and also of how he
is going to vote, not only in the minor matters, but in the main decision,
which in my opinion takes all of any man's time. On the question of
voting I would like to reserve our opinion for a little while longer.
Mr. Job I think it would be a distinct loss to the
Convention if Mr. Bradley, for instance, was in the position of not being
able to take part in the debates, and consequently in the voting.
Mr. Smallwood Mr. Chairman, the Speaker in the old days
always had a private seat to the right of the official seat where he sat as
chairman. In the old days, and in any parliament, the Speaker vacated
the Chair and occupied his private seat and took part in the debate. I have
seen and heard Judge Fox do it, and Mr. Winter and Mr. Penney (in 1919
when he was Speaker), and certainly I have seen them vote. They don't avail
of their right to speak or vote on everything that crops up, but on
vital matters, as elected citizens, they do avail of their right I agree
with Mr. Ashboume. I don't see how he can give up his vote, but he
should not give the casting vote.
Mr. Butt To be quite frank, although Mr. Bradley is here, I have come to almost wait for his
opinion. I give such
thought to it, and I hesitate to see him out of the position where he would
be there, and to know his opinion on any matter that might come up.
Mr. Ashboume I consider that every member of this
Convention has been given by his people the power to vote, and whether he is
in the Chair or whatever he is I don't think that vote should be taken
from him. Rather than do that I think we
should give him more power commensurate with his position, and I don't
advocate that that power be given him of the casting vote, but rather than
take away his power to vote at all, my idea would be to give him more
power, that is the casting vote, certainly we ought not to deprive him of
his vote. The Chairman, Judge Fox, was appointed by the government and
he could not have a vote, but if we elect a Chairman now we have a man
that was elected by the people, and naturally if the people sent him here,
they sent him to exercise a vote.
Mr. Vardy I entirely support the last speaker. I don' t
think it would be right to remove Mr. Bradley from his place on
the floor of the assembly, but I can't see at the moment any more suitable
person. I think it rests between Mr. Bradley and Justice Dunfield. I
don't like to see Mr. Bradley removed from the floor, but at the same time I
think he is the most suitable person, but I think it should be
unanimous. I feel that Mr. Bradley should only use his vote under the most
extenuating circumstances.
Mr. MacDonald Mr. Chairman, I think we have to forget
that this is not the government, but it is a Convention. When a Speaker is
appointed by the government he is entirely in favour of the
government, although he tries to conduct matters as best he can, but his
opinions are definitely in favour of the government. If we appoint a member of this
Convention immediately this man is in an
analogous position. If he casts his vote he will always be partial. I can't
see how he can be anything else.
Mr. Smallwood There is no objection to his being
partial so long as he is not partial between one member and another, that is
in enforcing or not enforcing a given rule for or against a member, but there is
no argument against a chairman being
partial. If a man is a human being he is partial, he must have his oWn
personal beliefs, but he must not use these to discriminate against any
member. His only power is to enforce the rules. His own opinions are
nobody's business but his own.
Mr.Ballam If we have the authority to put a man in as
Chairman we can also put him out.
Mr. Vardy Ithink we have no power to appoint, only to
recommend.
Mr. MacDonald I was not speaking of the Chairman being
partial towards members, but
186
NATIONAL CONVENTION
November 1946 being partial towards aquestion which may
come before the house. If he casts a vote on any side of an important
question his opponents will immediately say that he is partial. I
think it would be a decided loss if Mr. Bradley could not express his
opinion as he would like.
Mr. Penney As I understand it, we are talking about the
appointing of a member of this Convention as Chairman, and it
seems to me that two outstanding matters should concern us most. One
is the qualifications of the Chairman, and the other is his impartiality. In
regard to the member of this Convention named, all members here
present know that we had differences in debate, but as far as I am
concerned, it is over and forgotten. I listened very attentively to the
eloquent tribute which Mr. Bradley made to the late Judge
Fox, and I do not think any man of good common sense could make the
statements that Mr. Bradley made in a public session unless he meant
it sincerely. Apart altogether from the voting matter, I do not feel myself
competent to discuss that at this time. If the feeling of the
Convention is unanimous, I rather think that Mr. Bradley would make a
suitable and satisfactory Chairman.
Mr. Hillier When I spoke just now, I had no idea that
any member would take that responsibility. I am glad that one of
us is prepared to take that responsibility. A good many of you have
known Mr. Bradley a long time; I have known him only since I came here to
this Convention.... Should he be appointed, he will not be able to
enter as fully into debates on the various questions as he would
like to, but maybe Mr. Bradley would be in a position to forego some of
these things. I do not think it would be amiss if Mr. Bradley would
express himself on this particular point. Personally, I am
prepared to vote for Mr. Bradley...., I would like to see everything
working in harmony, and I do not see any reason why a member of this
Convention, who is capable, could not be appointed as chairman to
guide our destinies in a satisfactory manner.
Mr. Chairman Are you ready for the question? It is proposed
by Major Cashin and seconded by Mr. Ashbourne that Mr. Bradley he recommended for
Chairman and that the Commission of Government be
advised to change the act.
[The motion carried unanimously]
Mr. Smallwood This question of the Chairman voting. The
act, in addition to providing for the appointment of a Supreme Court judge,
provides also that judge shall not have the right to vote, and in
accordance with the act the standing orders of the Convention also provide
that that Chairman shall not vote. So in order to enable the
Chairman to vote, it is necessary first to amend the act, and second to
amend the standing orders. That ought to be taken care of. The motion merely
recommends that Mr. Bradley be appointed Chairman and that the section
of the act be repealed.
Mr. Cashin And also that he retain his vote. That was
my motion.
Mr. Chairman My understanding of it is that paragraph
one will be wiped out and the government will insert other words.
Mr. Vardy I would like to be placed on record as
wishing to thank the Commission of Government for giving us the
privilege of appointing our own Chairman.
[The Chairman read paragraph 2 of the National Convention Act[1]]
Mr. Cashin If they amend the act, we will appoint him My motion was that we appoint Mr. Bradley
and that the
Commission of Government be advised to change the act — that
section 2 be amended, and that the National Convention as it exists,
be empowered to appoint a Chairman. We have already done that. Now we want
to change the act to cover that.
Mr. Smallwood We have not done that. What we have done
in adopting Major Cashin's motion is that we have notified the government
that we want them to repeal that part of the act which forbids the
appointment of a Chairman who is not a judge of the Supreme Court, and to
appoint Mr. Bradley at our request. We cannot appoint him. We recommend
that they appoint him at our request. A motion could be put that the act be
amended by the government ensuring that the new Chairman so nominated
shall have the right to vote and subsequently that our standing rules be
amended, if necessary, to ensure that he has a vote.
Mr. Newell We should add, "and also that he have the
right to speak."
Mr. Job Would it not be better to do all that in one
motion?
November 1946 NATIONAL CONVENTION 187
Mr. Cashin What I think should happen is, that this
recommendation goes to the government; they will draft an amendment to
clause 2 and send it back here to see if it covers our request. Could
we not appoint a sub-committee to discuss with the government the fixing of
section 2?
Mr. Smallwood If the meeting agrees that that is
included in your motion — that the Chairman is to have his vote — that he is
not to lose his privilege as a member.
Mr. Fudge In view of Mr. Bradley's being now
recommended to the government, and let us assume Mr. Bradley is
appointed by the government, then the fact that the Steering
Committee will have to go over the rules of procedure and fix them
according to the appointment to the Chair, why all this trouble about
changing the rules?
Mr. Smallwood The Steering Committee has no such right.
The committee is not a cabinet and can decide nothing. The Convention has
that right.
Mr. Butt There is a question of principle involved. Instead of making a recommendation, we
should appoint our own
Chairman now. We are in session; this has come up. It is a question of
principle and dignity. We ought to have the right to appoint our own
Chairman and we ought to decide whether the Chairman is to have the right
to vote. We go back to the Commission and say, "We want the right to
carry on ourselves." If you trace back the history of the Convention, it is
a parliament of disabilities. One of the rights of parliament is that
it can make legislation. We are, in effect, a minor parliament. Is not that
right, Mr. Bradley?
Mr. Butt We should undertake
now to appoint Mr. Bradley as Chairman. We should undertake
also to give him the right to retain his vote. It is a question of
principle. If we are here to do a job, let us do it. We ought to demand that
right.
Mr. Harrington I would like to support Mr. Butt
strongly. The right of parliamentary privilege has come up. Maybe
if we had asked for it in the beginning we would have gotten it. If we
are not to be a parliament of disabilities I make a motion that we ask to be
given parliamentary privileges.
Mr. Smallwood I second that motion. If we
have parliamentary privileges, we can say what we like and no one
outside can sue. We have not got that right, and it may be necessary. I have
a certain thing to say about a certain commissioner and I am going to
say it. I would prefer not to be sued.
Mr. Smallwood Yes. I want to tell a certain
commissioner he is a liar. If we had parliamentary rights, a member, in the
public interest, has a certain right to say certain things for which he
could not be sued. He can be dealt with by parliament, but
cannot be sued. It is a restraining influence if it limits our freedom.
Mr. Bradley I understand something about the privileges
of parliament, but I would not go so far as to vote for a recommendation of
that kind. I do not think it is necessary, and, what is more to the
point, I am perfectly sure you will get no such authority from the
government.
Mr. Ballam The motion has been put and carried by a unanimous vote; I suggest we form a committee
including the
Acting Chairman, Mr. Higgins, Major Cashin and Mr. Smallwood to see
that what we decided will be carried out and let us be finished with it.
They could report back to the meeting.
[Mr. Smallwood, seconder, assented]
Mr. Butt On the question which I raised are we going to
recommend, or are we going to appoint? We ought not to let technicalities
stand in our way.
Mr. Cashin We suggest to the government that they
change the act to cover the appointment of a gentleman nominated by us.
Mr. Smallwood That is what we have done. We have
nominated a Chairman and we ask them to confirm it. The initiative comes
from us.
Mr. Bradley I do not like to get into this debate. I
would point out that the principle is correct. This Convention should have
the right to select its own Chairman. That is the basis of the whole thing.
I would suggest that the motion take something of this form: "That the
government he advised that this Convention is of opinion that it should have
power to select and recommend its own Chairman and in
pursuance of that opinion..." whatever else you would like to add.
Mr. Smallwood "And in pursuance of that
188
NATIONAL CONVENTION
November 1946 opinion it has today selected Mr. F. Gordon
Bradley as Chairman, and asks the government to change the act
accordingly."
Mr. Ashbourne I think it would be a good idea if the motion
was put in writing. The motion as really voted on should be read by the
Secretary before it is put so that there can be no doubt in the minds of
those voting on it.
[A recess was called at this juncture so that a sub-committee consisting of the Acting
Chaer man, Mr. Higgins, Mr. Cashin, Mr. Smallwood and Mr. Ashboume, could draft a
motion]
Mr. Chairman Here is the motion, gentlemen: Resolved that
we advise the Commission of Government of our wish to be empowered
to select our own Chairman, and that we have today selected Mr. E
Gordon Bradley, K.C., for that position, subject to the consent of the
Commission of Government, and that we advise the Commission of Government of
our wish that Mr. Bradley be appointed Chairman of the National
Convention, and that we request the Commission of Government
to amend the National Convention Act accordingly, and in such a way as not
to deprive Mr. Bradley of his rights as an elected delegate to the
National Convention.
[The original motion, proposed by Mr. Cashin, was rescinded, and the new motion carried.
The Convention adjourned]
