Mr. Smallwood Mr. Chairman, yesterday we
finished reading clause 16, and I wonder if the
Convention is ready to go with clause 17?
Mr. Higgins One question only. Would Mr.
Smallwood describe the type of ship meant under
paragraph I, clause 16.
Mr. Smallwood Oh, that's the ferry on the Gulf.
What Mr. Higgins probably has in mind is some
discussion that took place in one of the last plenary sessions we had in Ottawa, where
I think Mr.
St. Laurent, the chairman of the plenary sessions,
gave us verbally a part description of a boat that
he said their steamship advisers figured might be
the kind of boat that they would put on the Gulf.
There was nothing final about it, nothing in writing; it was merely a description
by word of
mouth... I have forgotten the specifications and
dimensions that they spoke of tentatively, but I
do remember that Mr. Higgins, who sat next to
me whispered, "Well, Joe, it looks to me as if they
are willing to give us anything we ask for." He
was very pleased with the possibilities of the
tourist trade in Newfoundland, and I was very
pleased, at least at the thought that a fine ferry
boat would be put on the Gulf the kind of boat
that would bring tourists and their cars across the
Gulf. I think that's what Mr. Higgins is referring
to.
Mr. Higgins Yes, that is what I was referring to.
I wonder, would it be possible if Mr.
Smallwood's memory later on might help him in
giving us a description?
Mr. Smallwood Mr. Bradley has apparently
been interested for years past in ships and shipping, I am sure when he gets back
he will be able
to repeat these details and specifications because
he was very interested in these from the technical
standpoint. I don't know much about ships and
shipping, and I was not in a position to judge. Mr.
St. Laurent, I believe, read from a written memo
that had been handed to him by the Canadian
government shipping people, but if Mr. Higgins
would wait until Monday, Mr. Bradley will be
here.
Mr. Smallwood No, that would be sort of taking
the bull by the horns. It was this: knowing the
Gulf as they do, and the boat we have had on the
Gulf, and with their general knowledge of steamship service and practice, their steamship
people
... worked out something on paper, something in
general of the type of ship that might be needed
for that purpose.
Mr. Ballam Mr. Chairman, the CNR delegation, assuming that if and when we become a
province they would have to take all these things
into consideration, considered the matter of a
ferry on the Gulf; and because of that the
Canadian government went into just what kind of
an outfit they would put there, and that was where
they got the idea of making an estimate of what
it would cost. The kind of boats they anticipate
would cost about $2.5 million, and would take 30
cars, and give a daily service back and forth.
That's a lot better than we get now. But that is
what they anticipated, and that is exactly what
they told us in this session.
Mr. Ballam I am not worrying about Mr. Bradley. You were there, and you heard it, and you
said it was fine.
Mr. Cashin I wonder if Mr. Ballam could tell us
if, at the time they were discussing the ship across
the Gulf, they took up the matter of a subsidy that
they might or should have paid us in the last 20
years across the Gulf?
Mr. Ballam If we become a province we would
not need a subsidy.
Mr. Cashin No, we will get a lot of things for
nothing then.
Mr. Smallwood The other day when Mr. Ballam was absent for a day, I was trying to remember which
of the delegation it was that had the
conversation with Commander Edwards, who
was telling us how he had been in Newfoundland
and knew our railway system well, and this member of the committee said to him in
a friendly
way, "What would happen if the CNR took over
884
NATIONAL CONVENTION
November 1947
our railway, would we get any improvements?"
Then Commander Edwards went ahead. I wonder
if Mr. Ballam would care to give us a rough
outline of what Commander Edwards said?
Mr. Ballam No, I will not say what Commander
Edwards said to me. It was off the record, a
conversation while we were walking the streets.
But Commander Edwards was in Newfoundland
years ago and spent four days on the Gaff Topsail
stuck in the snow, and he has been down around
the lighthouses and wireless stations, and you
know half of these things in Newfoundland are
looked after by the Canadian government. He is
the Deputy Minister of Transport, and what he
said to me was just between ourselves and is not
on the record, and I would not repeat it here.
Mr. Cashin But Mr. Ballam, did l understand
you to say that this ship or ferry that they are
going to put on the Gulf is going to cost $2.5
million?
Mr. Ballam Yes, but that's a small one to start.
They have a $6-7 million one at Prince Edward
Island; but it would be foolish to build a big one
and put it on the Gulf when we have not the cars,
etc. We hope to have a road from Corner Brook
to Port-aux-Basques by the time this ferry is built,
and we will look after our own affairs after that;
but if you fellows get wise enough to build a road
all across the country then we will have a $7
million ferry!
(1) Employees of the Government of
Newfoundland in services taken over by
Canada as provided for in clause 5 above will
be offered employment in the corresponding
Canadian service under the terms and conditions governing employment in that service,
but without reduction in salary or loss of
pension (superannuation) rights acquired
under Newfoundland law.
(2) Canada will make all necessary payments in respect of such pension rights and
may deduct from any subsidies payable to the
Province of Newfoundland any payments
made in respect of pensionable service of
such employees with the Government of
Newfoundland.
(3) Pensions of employees of the Government of Newfoundland superannuated or
retired on pension before the service concerned is taken over by Canada will remain
the responsibility of the Province of Newfoundland.
I don't know that there is a great deal of explanation called for there...
Mr. Higgins May I query you a little on that
before you go further?
Mr. Higgins Are employees of the Newfoundland Railway and the radio broadcasting
system, using two illustrations, employees of the
Government of Newfoundland, or employees of
these corporations?
Mr. Smallwood I think in this clause there is no
doubt whatever about it. "Employees of the
Government of Newfoundland in services taken
over by the Government of Canada, as provided
in Clause 5 above", and they are listed in clause
5 above. What are these? The Newfoundland
Railway, the public radio broadcasting system,
etc.
Mr. Higgins But they may be employees of the
government.
Mr. Smallwood They are employees of the
government, and they are defined in both...
Mr. Chairman I would remind you, Mr. Higgins, that the corporate status that the Railway
possessed up to 1934 or 1935 was taken away
when all the assets of the Railway were, by
special act, vested in the Commissioner for
Public Utilities...
Mr. Higgins Are all these employees now
regarded as civil servants?
Mr. Chairman No, not civil servants. It is rather
difficult. For example they are not exempted
from jury service as the ordinary civil servant
would be, but in all other respects they are
definitely government employees, because the
Railway is a utility owned and operated by the
government, and they have not even bothered to
superimpose upon the railway operation the
status of a corporation. In the case of the Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation,
however,
that is something entirely different. I do suggest
to you that the employees of the Newfoundland
Railway could be, I don't say would be, could be
government employees, when employees of the
Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation would
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 885
not be employees of the government in the sense
that they would be employees of the Corporation.
Mr. Chairman The Fisheries Board is in a very
unique position, because to the best of my recollection, it is the only department
of government
here incorporated, whereunder it is liable to sue
and be sued as an ordinary person. There is no
other department... .
Mr. Chairman Well, I have not examined the
constitution of the broadcasting corporation, but
I have had occasion to examine the constitution
of the Fisheries Board many times.
Mr. Crummey The Fisheries Board, as at
present set up, cannot operate under confederation. Isn't it an illegal body under
confederation,
the present Fisheries Board?
Mr. Ballam I can say that they told us that the
fisheries set-up we have in this country would be
maintained....
Mr. Chairman I would remind you that under
the company laws of Canada, if you are going to
operate in a single province then of course you
take out a provincial charter.... The point is this:
if you want the right to do business nationally
then you apply for a federal charter, but that does
not affect the right of any province to grant to any
individual the right to operate in that province,
therefore the Fisheries Board, if the set-up is as I
see it, would be operating under a provincial
law.... If we went into confederation, it would not
in any way effect the provincial status that the
Fisheries Board charter would then take.
Mr. Crummey Mr. Chairman, my impression
was that the Fisheries Board, as it operates in
Newfoundland, has the right to import and export. Under the BNA Act, a province has
no such
right, and naturally the Fisheries Board must go
out of operation, but I think, in these terms, it is
provided that the Fisheries Board may go under
their board as a representative of the New
foundland fisheries.
Mr. Chairman ....The Fisheries Board would
be hampered from operating within other provinces unless it took out a federal charter,
or a series
of ancilliary corporations ... but that would not
affect its right to operate within the Province of
Newfoundland...
Mr. Cashin Mr. Chairman, there's a few questions I would like to ask. I would be glad if Mr.
Smallwood would answer briefly. "Employees of
the Government of Newfoundland in services
taken over by Canada as provided for in clause 5
above will be offered employment in the corresponding Canadian service under the terms
and
conditions governing employment in that service..." Take the Customs department, which
employs 250 people, and collects today over $20
million. When and if we went into confederation
with Canada, according to statistics we have here,
the customs revenue will be only $4 million. Now
are all these employees going to be retained down
here, or laid off and offered positions in other
parts of the Customs of Canada?... Will they
reorganise our Customs ...? Have you any
guarantee, in other words, that the men are going
to be retained in the Customs service in
Newfoundland? I don't see anything here to
cover that.
Now the next thing. "Pensions of employees
of the Government of Newfoundland superannuated or retired on pension before the service
concerned is taken over by Canada will remain
the responsibility of the Province of Newfoundland."
I would like Mr. Smallwood to explain what
is going to happen to the postal telegraph department particularly. These are practically
all over
Newfoundland. If the telegraphs are taken over,
they will be the Canadian National Telegraphs,
which control the system of Canada. Are they
going to keep the telegraph offices open in White
Bay, Aquaforte and all such places? Are we
assured that these communications are going to
be maintained or are they going to be cut? There
is nothing to show whether they are going to be
maintained or whether they are not.
Mr. Smallwood First, the Government of
Canada will take over a number of services we
now have today, take on quite a number of new
men; on top of that they will introduce into Newfoundland a number of services we
have not got
at all. For those services they have to take on
many more men and they have to be Newfoundlanders.
Mr. Smallwood Under section 63 of the Civil
Service Act the Canadian government, except in
the headquarters office in Ottawa, must employ
886 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
persons who are ordinarily resident in the
province where they are going to employ them.
In other words, having taken over the Railway
and the employees of the Railway; the broadcasting station and the employees of the
broadcasting
station; Gander airport and the employees there;
the Customs offices' and the postal-telegraph
offices' employees, and putting them under
Canadian rates of pay; they have also got to
establish brand new other federal services in
Newfoundland as in the rest of Canada, and in
doing so have to take on a large number of new
civil servants who will be federal government
civil servants. These must be Newfoundlanders.
Mr. Kennedy From 1935-37 — I was educated
in Canada — I went through Nova Scotia and as
far as what Mr. Smallwood said, I know there is
no foundation for it at all.
Mr. Chairman There is foundation for it by
virtue of the fact that he quoted from the Civil
Service Act, section 63. If you are prepared to
show that he is incorrect in that, there is some
justification for your observation. You have to
lay the foundation for the observation.
Mr. Smallwood One of the things that would
happen if Newfoundland ever became a
province, is that in a number of departments of
the Government of Newfoundland there would
not be as many employees needed as they have
today. Take for example the Auditor General's
department which audits everything the government runs. The government would not be
running
as many things; not as much auditing to be done;
therefore the department would not need to be as
big. The same thing applies to a number of
present government departments. But in view of
the fact that the Government of Canada would be
introducing quite a number of new federal services that we have not got today and
that they
would be manning new departments, and must
employ Newfoundlanders, obviously there will
be many opportunities for men to be engaged in
these new departments and for these civil servants in Newfoundland departments that
would
not no longer be needed.... We discussed that
matter. There is a clear-cut understanding that the
first men and women to get a chance in the new
Canadian federal government departments to be
established in Newfoundland, if we become a
province, will be Newfoundland government
civil servants who no longer are needed by the
Newfoundland government because some of the
departments would obviously be smaller than
they are today. In reply to Major Cashin, all the
employees will be offered work in these services
taken over by the Government of Canada. It is
very clear — it is in clause 17, section 1....
Mr. Cashin What new opportunities of employment or departments are they going to open up
here?
Mr. Smallwood Number one is, they have to
establish a regional family allowances division.
That is one. In every province the family allowance cheques are sent out every month,
not
from Ottawa, but from the provincial headquarters, so there would be one in Newfoundland....
An unemployment insurance
office, a Department of Veterans' Affairs has to
be opened. Major Cashin caught me short — I
will have to sit down and make a list, I can have
that Monday....
Mr. Higgins Are you prepared to say, under
section 2 in our budget the delegation estimated,
they did or did not take into account all the
monies we said we would need?
Mr. Smallwood Not sufficient account. Major
Cashin is looking at this from the standpoint of a
budget. That is quite right. The budget he will
find in the Black Books was drawn here in St.
John's by the delegation weeks before we went
to Ottawa at all, before we had the benefit of what
we learned. That budget in many respects is very
much out of date, and an entirely new one will
have to be brought in. He would be well advised
not to pay too much attention to the budget in the
Black Books.
Mr. Cashin I am referring to the Grey Book.
What is the revenue?
Mr. Smallwood It was drawn up before we went
to Ottawa at all. We did learn quite a bit in Ottawa
in our three months.
Mr. Cashin I think Mr. Smallwood will agree,
when we start to tackle this, it has to be tackled
from a financial angle and we have to look for
money somewhere.
Mr. Cashin With regard to section 3: "Pensions
of employees of the Government of New
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 887
foundland superannuated or retired on pension
before the service concerned is taken over by
Canada will remain the responsibility of the
Province of Newfoundland." That is being paid
at the present time by the Finance Department
and amounts to over $202,000 a year. In this book
here, it shows it as $101,000. I do not know who
drew this up.
Mr. Smallwood Quite right. We thought that in
the departments of the Newfoundland government that would be taken over by the Government
of Canada, they would also be responsible
for the pensions of the people who were now
retired, and not the provincial government.
Mr. Cashin This is the position, when you eventually got around and talked money, they said,
"No, we are not going to take this over, nor are
we going to take over provincial deficits." You
are short $175,000 in interest and sinking fund
and $100,000 in pensions.
Mr. Smallwood I do not accept your figures, but
I accept the position. You must remember, under
clause 3, the pensions refer only to those of
people who are not pensioned before the department is taken over by Canada. We have
to break
down the figures of pensions. We will come to
that.
Mr. Smallwood Does Mr. Hickman not know
that part of the Black Books consists of material
prepared by the Ottawa delegation here in St.
John's before we went to Ottawa at all?
Mr. Smallwood That was something we
prepared as a delegation for our own information
in part, and for the information of the Government of Canada in part; that is not
from the
Government of Canada; it is from us. That is not
official. What is official was put there by the
Government of Canada.
Mr. Hickman I want to make it clear, it is not
all official in the Black Books.
Mr. Smallwood That sounds dark and foreboding — "It is not all official there."
Mr. Job How much of it is from Canada?
Mr. Chairman How much is emanating from
the Ottawa delegation and how much from the
Canadian government?
Mr. Cashin We are trying to make up our own
budget.
Mr. Smallwood That is the duty of this Convention; not only that, it is the duty of every citizen
to have ideas on the possibility of Newfoundland
to balance the budget — we can all have ideas on
that.
Mr. Hickman How many pages in the Black
Books could be regarded as being provided by the
Newfoundland delegation?
Mr. Smallwood You will find that in Volume 1,
describing appendix 2 — "Memorandum
presented at the commencement of discussions",
pages 17 to 70 inclusive.
Mr. Bailey I think what Mr. Smallwood said
about employees not being put out of employment through other services being opened
is all
out of kilter — men going to be taken over by
other departments. Take a tidewaiter, I do not see
any authority whereby he would be taken over
and become an old age pensioner. And those
family allowances and so on. I do not see how it
can work, myself. I was struck forcibly when I
came in here and got the Black Books. I think the
work would have been a lot easier if the Newfoundland data had been put in one book
and the
data from Canada in the other, so we would have
an official book. One day we are told it is official,
next day we are told it is not official.
Mr. Smallwood We are not told it is not official.
In part 1 it says "Memorandum presented by the
Newfoundland delegation at the commencement
of the discussions." That is not official. It does
not pretend to be. Be fair!
Mr. Bailey I am fair. I was told they were official. I think everyone else was told they were
official. But it would have been easier if the
memorandum only was in one book and to have
the memorandum from Canada in the other.
Mr. Butt I wonder if Mr. Smallwood could tell
us if the pensions in the civil service are on a
contributory basis?
Mr. Smallwood I do not know if I have the
superannuation act here. I have it down at my
house. It is a magnificent civil service pensions
and superannuation scheme; one of the very best
of any country. In fact, it might be a good idea if
we got a copy of that act for every member of the
Convention.
Mr. Butt You say it is one of the best. I am not
888 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
interested in that. I am interested in the fact that
civil servants have to contribute towards the pensions. The point is they would have
to contribute
— today they have not got to contribute. It is
something like 5 1/2% or 6%.
Mr. Butt I am not guessing. The point is, civil
servants will have to contribute. Today they do
not have to contribute. Another thing, our provincial pensions will be paid by the
provincial
government?
Mr. Butt Which means that the province would
have to get a contributory scheme, or we would
have part of the civil service getting pensions
from the provincial government — one part
would be servants of the Government of Newfoundland and the other, civil servants
of Canada.
One is rich and the other is not so rich.
Mr. Butt A good many civil servants will appreciate it too.
Mr. Butt It is not propaganda. The civil servants
will have to contribute to their pensions. I ask you
to explain, is it true or is it not?
Mr. Smallwood I have not got the act here. If
you want a debate on the civil service of Canada
to compare it with the civil service of Newfoundland, we will have it and see who
comes out
best.
Mr. Butt You can be jolly well sure we will have
a debate on it.
Mr. Bailey I was going to refer to this.... Up to
now, the Railway paid its pensions out of the
earnings of the Railway. Now we find, after the
federal government takes over the Railway, although these men have worked hard to
make it
pay, the province is stuck with the superannuation for another 50 or 60 years before
this is
finished.
Mr. Smallwood Those pensioned up to the time
the Railway is taken over by the Canadian National Railway, not those pensioned after.
Mr. Bailey Although the province has lost the
earning power of the Railway, they are stuck with
the superannuation.
Mr. Smallwood How would the province lose
the earning power of the Railway?
Mr. Bailey The earning power would go to the
federal government if they took it over.
Mr. Bailey We take it for granted it is not going
to be run at a loss if it can be made to pay. If it
does pay, the province is left with these pensions.
After all, the pensions should come under the
Railway.
Mr. Fogwill Did I understand you to say that the
Railway employees now retired on pension,
those would become the responsibility of the
province?
Mr. Fogwill I thought the responsibility lay with
the Railway and not with the Newfoundland
government. These people have acquired no pension rights under the Newfoundland law.
Who is
going to be responsible for all those who are now
off?
Mr. Fogwill That relates to employees of
government who acquired pensions under Newfoundland law. Now, the Railway retired
pensioners have not acquired any rights under
Newfoundland law.
Mr. Smallwood If I were Mr. Fogwill — he is
a railway man and a trade union man — I would
not make such a dogmatic statement as that.
Whether they acquired them is a delicate matter.
I would not brandish it about and broadcast it; it
may not be the case. There is a very delicate
situation there, as Mr. Fogwill knows. Mr. Fogwill knows the inside story of the pensions
of
railroaders and the legal position surrounding it.
I would not brandish it around by saying, "They
have no legal right to a pension." I happen to
know.
Mr. Fogwill I am not brandishing anything
about. I want to know the truth. We are keeping
it dark.
Mr. Smallwood What would happen under confederation in that matter is stated in section 3 of
this clause. Let me put it in my words. Newfoundland becomes a province on a certain
date;
certain men have been pensioned from public
services that the Government of Canada would
take over on that date. The pensions due those
men who had been pensioned, retired on pensions, before Canada took over, their pensions
would be the liability of the Government of Newfoundland and not of the Government
of Canada.
Those who would become pensioned after confederation would be the liability of the
Govern
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 889
ment of Canada.
Mr. Miller That is not right ... say a Newfoundland employee has worked ten years with
the Newfoundland government; we go into confederation, and he then works ten years
with the
federal government; he has pension rights after
the 20 year period; we will pay his pension for
the ten year period as a province and the federal
government will pay for the other ten year
period?
Mr. Smallwood I said they would pay for the
period which they worked for the Canadian
government.
Mr. Watton If the Canadian government takes
over the various services such as the Broadcasting Corporation, they also take over
$100,000 in
the Bank of Montreal?
Mr. Watton It is the plan of the corporation to
spend so much of that money on certain things.
If the Government of Canada assumes ownership
of that money, is there any assurance that that
money won't be spent somewhere else in
Canada?
Mr. Smallwood No assurance here in the terms,
and if any of us, if anyone wishes to look upon
the Government of Canada as just trying to bluff
us into confederation so that they can fleece us
right and left, that is a thing that a man is entitled
to believe if he likes, and if that is true then no
doubt the Government of Canada once we went
in could turn around and lambaste us right away.
They could close down the railway here and send
it out to British Columbia, they could do all kinds
of things! If we think they are a half- decent kind
of government, like most governments in the
world, then we might reasonably expect that they
would give us a half-decent deal; but if they are
wholly indecent, if they are just another "Hitler"
outfit, they will plunge us down into poverty,
they will just suck us dry like a lemon or an
orange.
Mr. Butt I wonder if Mr. Smallwood could tell
us if they discussed that matter at all in Ottawa,
or if anything was said about it.
Mr. Smallwood We did not discuss it. We did
not say to the Canadian government, and particularly Dr. McCann, Minister of National
Revenue, under whom it comes, "Look, the
Broadcasting Corporation has roughly a
$100,000 cash surplus in the bank, with which
they are going to build a new studio in St. John's,
and put up a new transmitter in Grand Falls, and
they are doing this, that and the other." What we
did say was, "What would be the position under
confederation in connection with the Broadcasting Corporation?" We had a discussion
on it, and
we had a written reply, which you will find somewhere in the Black Books. Their reply
was this,
"It would become part of the network of the
CBC." He said, "We would aim at improving it
and enlarging it, and giving the people of Newfoundland a far better average radio
broadcasting
coverage than they have now." The $100,000 to
which Mr. Watton refers, they would spend that
and many another with it, right here in Newfoundland, to make a broadcasting service
that
would cover the entire island, which our corporation does not do now. After all, look
at the estimates, look what they spend on that CBC, it is
up in the millions a year.
Mr. Higgins Would you personally prefer that
we retain it as a province or not? Personally, I
mean.
Mr. Smallwood I will put it to you this way. If
we became a province and we had to elect our
House of Assembly, and I were running as a
member and happened to be on the winning side,
I would love to have that Broadcasting Corporation as a sort of private toy of my
own. Whether
that would be good for Newfoundland is another
thing. I would hate to see the Broadcasting Corporation become a political tool for
politicians. If
it becomes part and parcel of the CBC, a national
network reaching from St. John's to Vancouver,
I think the people and the employees will get a
square deal from it. I would not like to see the
Broadcasting Corporation become just a tool for
politicians, which I am afraid it would if it were
controlled by an elected Government of Newfoundland. It is bad enough now with the
Commission controlling it. I don't believe one story in
one hundred that you will hear of the "dictatorship" and the way the Broadcasting
Corporation
is used by the government. I think, as a matter of
fact, when you look back over the years since it
was started, I think the Government of Newfoundland, the Commission of Government,
has
been very clean and decent about it. I don't think
they have used it as a political tool.
890 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Clause 18 — Unemployment Benefits.
Since, under the Unemployment Insurance Act, 1940, and amendments, unemployment benefits
are ordinarily available
only to workers who have built up reserves
by a period of continuous employment in
insurable employment, Canada will provide
for transitional unemployment benefits as
follows:
Residents of Newfoundland in insurable
employment who lose their employment
within six months prior to the date of union
and are still unemployed at that date, or who
lose their employment within a six months'
period after that date, will be entitled for a
period of six months from the date of union
or six months from the date of unemployment, whichever is the later, to assistance
on
the same scale and under the same conditions
as unemployment insurance benefits. The
rates of payment will be based on the
individual's wage record for the three months
preceding his loss of employment. The cost
of this assistance will be borne directly out of
moneys appropriated by Parliament for the
purpose and not out of the Unemployment
Insurance Fund.
Sir, that sounds a little complicated, but actually it means simply this: any men
in Newfoundland who were working in a class of
employment that is insured under the act, who
become unemployed any time within six months
before we become a province, or six months after
— ordinarily they would get no benefits from the
Unemployment Insurance Fund, because they
would not have been paying into the fund, they
would not have made any contributions. Now
that would be the ordinary position, but this
clause provides that they will get the benefits just
the same as if they had been insured under the
fund, and just the same as if they had been making
contributions into the fund right along, just as if
they had been in a province right along. They will
be entitled to that for six months — if they
become unemployed within six months after
union. It's a little bit complicated, I think I understand it, but I don't know if
I can explain it.
Mr. Fogwill What they will get amounts to exactly 36 days. That is just what they get, 36 days
and nothing more.
They will receive the benefits for six months. I
think Mr. Fogwill has misread that. They will be
actually paid unemployment benefits for 24
weeks, is it? Six months.
Mr. Higgins Was not the purpose that in the
event of any factories or other avenues of
employment being closed as a result of confederation, employees would be more or less
protected during that period?
Mr. Smallwood It is that I suppose, among other
things.... Anyone becoming unemployed within
six months before confederation or six months
after confederation, he will receive the benefits
for six months....
Mr. Fogwill No, Mr. Smallwood, that's entirely
wrong. Six months, that is the limit, isn't it? In
six months it would only amount to 180 days, and
he would get 36 days if he were paying six
months, so that is the limit he would get. Tell the
truth about it.
Mr. Smallwood I think Mr. Fogwill is completely wrong. He reads it in that way, but I read
it in another way altogether....
Mr. Ashbourne I suggest that we have an interpretation from the Chairman of the Convention,
if he would not mind.
Mr. Hickman I suggest that Mr. Smallwood put
that down as a question.
Mr. Chairman I don't think I ought to be asked
to pronounce on it....
Mr. Ashbourne ....I should say, as a layman,
that they would be getting unemployment insurance for six months. That is as I take
it.
Mr. Burry As one of the members of the subcommittee that interviewed the department on
this, I fully understood it that these unemployed
men, for six months after confederation, would
receive unemployment benefits for six months.
Whatever the legal interpretation may be, that's
my clear understanding of the matter, and I maintained that until Mr. Fogwill got
up.
Mr. Crummey Being a member of that committee as well as Mr. Burry, I think that clause was
put in particularly for those who would lose their
jobs if we came into union. Some businesses that
are protected now by tariffs would be closed
up by virtue of going into confederation, and men
would be put out of employment, and this Clause
was put in. Under the Unemployment Insurance
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 891
Act they could not get any relief, so they had to
put it in as it stands, and my understanding is
something like Mr. Fogwill's: under the same
conditions as unemployment insurance benefits.
Mr. Chairman Well, I interpret that section to
mean, "Will be entitled for six months from the
date of union, or six months from the date of
unemployment, whichever is the later, to assistance on the same scale and under the
same
conditions as unemployment insurance
benefits"....
Mr. Hickman Mr. Chairman, I think this is
rather important, if there were a lot of factories
closed down and several thousand or hundred
people were laid off. It should be clearly laid
down what they would receive, so I think we
should get that point cleared up.
Mr. Higgins I don't know if I can clear it up in
any way for you. It is my understanding that that
particular clause was inserted with the idea that
if industry was disrupted during the period immediately prior to, or immediately following
confederation, then any insurable person working at
that time, who lost employment within six
months before or six months after confederation,
and were still unemployed at that date, or who
lose their employment within six months, are
entitled to have six months insurance. There is no
question about it at all...
Mr. Hickman I don't want to labour the point.
We could, or Mr. Smallwood could have that
determined, and the Canadian interpretation put
on it, so that we could know exactly what it
means.
Mr. Smallwood I will put in a question on that,
Mr. Chairman, and get it cleared up...
Mr. Chairman I don't think we ought to waste
further time because at Mr. Hickman's request an
official pronouncement, if you will, is to be
sought and obtained by Mr. Smallwood, so we
might continue.
Mr. Cashin Mr. Chairman, do loggers and
fishermen come under this thing?
Mr. Smallwood I don't know, frankly, at this
moment. Not fishermen, no, but loggers and
longshoremen may or may not be in. It is now two
months and more since we left Ottawa, and about
three weeks before we left they were getting
ready to bring loggers and longshoremen in.
Whether they are in yet or not, I don't know.
Mr. Cashin The fishermen and loggers are not
in, that's the point.
Mr. Job What proportion of our population are
into this?
Mr. Crummey There is no possible chance
whatever for fishermen and loggers to get any
benefit. That was put in primarily for those who
would be thrown out of employment by virtue of
going into confederation.
Mr. Smallwood Mr. Crummey is entirely
wrong there. The date of union is the big thing.
When we become a province any person who,
under the act, is insured and who becomes unemployed, comes under these benefits.
If by then
loggers and longshoremen are in the act, if they
become unemployed they come under this
clause.
Mr. Crummey Isn't that put in there because
they thought some industries would be disrupted?
Mr. Smallwood Yes, that's the reason for it, but
it's the thing itself that counts.
Mr. Crummey Isn't that the reason Mr. Burry
went down to see the Unemployment Insurance
Commission?
Mr. Smallwood There was no thought of loggers or fishermen or anything else. How can you
put loggers or fishermen out of employment by
virtue of coming under confederation?
Mr. Chairman I don't see that there is any point
of debating this at the moment. The fact is that it
is to be interpreted....
Mr. Chairman Are members satisfied to go on
to the next clause?
The Legislature of the Province of Newfoundland will have exclusive authority to
make laws in relation to education within the
Province, provided that the Legislature will
not have authority to make laws prejudicially
affecting any right or privilege with respect
to denominational or separate schools which
any class of persons has by law in Newfoundland at the date of union, but the legislature
may authorise any two or more such
classes of persons to amalgamate or unite the
schools and to receive, notwithstanding such
amalgamation or union, their proportionate
share of the public funds of Newfoundland
devoted to education.
Excerpt from the letter of the Prime Minister of
892 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Canada:
The Government could not readily contemplate any change in these arrangements
which would impose larger financial burdens
on Canada. On the other hand, with respect
to those matters which are primarily of
provincial concern, such as education, the
Government of Canada would not wish to set
down any rigid conditions, and it would be
prepared to give reasonable consideration to
suggestions for modification or addition.
All I want to say about that clause is this. In
Newfoundland we have had for many years,
before any of us was born, a system of education
that has grown up based on the beliefs and the
ideas and the needs of our people.... It is a system
under which the various religious denominations
have their own school system. Each denomination has its own schools and these schools
are
supported by the government out of the public
funds, most of them. They also raise money of
their own, as we all know.... Clause 19 says that
first of all, only the legislature of Newfoundland
can pass any laws concerning education if we
become a province.... Secondly, they could not
pass any law which would affect the rights of the
different denominations to have their own
schools; their rights are protected and they can go
on as long as time lasts because no law can be
made to change that. If any two denominations
or more should ever wish to unite their schools
into one system, their right is protected here and
it is left entirely to the people and the legislature
of Newfoundland, and no one else can interfere
in it. In other words, this clause protects our
present school system, leaves it just like it is,
unless we Newfoundlanders should ever wish to
change it ourselves....
Mr. Smallwood Yes, by uniting any two or
more schools. If any denomination wishes to go
on forever with its own system of schools, their
right is guaranteed in clause 19. The Prime Minister has made it quite clear that
if Newfoundland
wishes to change that clause, if this Convention
desired to ask the Government of Canada if they
would change it in some way, they are open to
receive the request. If far more responsible
people than this Convention wish to take up the
matter, the way is open.
Mr. Chairman I think it is a closed matter as far
as the government is concerned. It is the right of
any community to see that its rights shall not be
taken away; if they desired to change by amalgamation, that would be brought before
the
provincial legislature. In either of those cases, I
feel that any communication between the
Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada is futile and absolutely unnecessary.
Mr. Smallwood I do not see it quite that way.
Knowing as they do in the Government of
Canada what our school system is, they were
most anxious to protect our rights as they stand
today. So they put in a clause to do that. It does
exactly that. But the Prime Minister says, "With
respect to those matters which are primarily of
provincial concern, such as education, the
Government of Canada would not wish to set
down any rigid conditions, and it would be
prepared to give reasonable consideration to suggestions for modification or addition"...
They are
open to make it even more binding than it is for
the purpose of guaranteeing and protecting the
rights of the various classes of persons in Newfoundland.
Mr. Cashin I am not conversant with the British
North America Act; but is there not something in
it covering education?
Section 93: In and for each province the
Legislature may exclusively make laws in
relation to education, subject and according
to the following provisions:
( 1) Nothing in any such law shall prejudicially affect any right or privilege with
respect to denominational schools which any
class of persons have by law in the province
at the union.
(2) All the powers, privileges and duties
at the union by law conferred and imposed in
Upper Canada on the Separate Schools and
School Trustees of the Queen's Roman
Catholic subjects shall be and the same are
hereby extended to the Dissentient Schools
of the Queen's Protestant and Roman
Catholic subjects in Quebec.
(3) Where in any province a system of
separate or Dissentient Schools exists by law
at the union or is thereafter established by the
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 893
Legislature of the province, an appeal shall
lie to the Governor General in Council from
any act or decision of any provincial
authority affecting any right or privilege of
the Protestant or Roman Catholic minority of
the Queen's subjects in relation to education.
(4) In case any such provincial law as
from time to time seems to the Governor
General in Council requisite for the due execution of the provisions of this section
is not
made, or in case any decision of the Governor
General in Council on any appeal under this
section is not duly executed by the proper
provincial authority in that behalf, then and
in every such case, and as far only as the
circumstances of each case require, the Parliament of Canada may make remedial laws
for the due execution of the provisions of this
section and of any decision of the Governor
General in Council under this section.
Mr. Cashin What is the idea of clause 19 being
put in here? If the BNA Act covers it, why inject
it in these terms?
Mr. Smallwood I am afraid section 93 does not
cover the points in the clause in our terms. There
are two points that seemed and seem to be highly
desirable in this country today. One point is this:
any denomination that has its own schools must
be guaranteed the right to have their schools as
long as ever they want them to be so; all the rights
they have now must be guaranteed to last forever
— to have separate denominational schools and
to have them paid for out of the public chest....
On the other hand, if any two denominations who
want to unite their two systems of schools ... the
right to do that is also in these terms, so that all
rights are protected; to stay as they are or to go
on to something else. That is left entirely to
Newfoundland. The Government of Canada does
not want to interfere in the matter. We all appreciate why that is. It is a delicate
matter, a
matter of conscience, and the government does
not want to dicker or interfere or meddle where
our conscience is at stake. They want to protect
the rights we have without changing them one
iota. If there is any change, we Newfoundlanders
or our school authorities or heads must change
them. I do not think there is much likelihood of
that. But the right to do it is guaranteed. If not,
the right to carry on is guaranteed.
Mr. Cashin It was not guaranteed under the
BNA Act?
Mr. Smallwood It was not guaranteed in section
93. It is a highly complicated and technical matter. All educational authorities and
religious
authorities are more familiar with it than we are.
Mr. Higgins Does section 93 freeze forever the
present setup we have here?
Mr. Smallwood Section 93 would and does —
if section 93 applied in these terms, it would mean
we could never make any change at all. We must
stay as we are forever and a day. If any denominations should ever wish to unite their
schools, they
could not do it.
Mr. Chairman Unless under clause 4 our
provincial statutes under section 93 were found
to be inadequate, then the Governor General
could intervene.
Mr. Smallwood The Governor General can
only intervene where the clause is violated. If the
Governor General failed to intervene, or did intervene and the proper authority does
not carry it
out, then appeal could be made to higher
authority, namely the Government of Canada.
Mr. Chairman "In case any such provincial law
as from time to time seems to the Governor
General in Council requisite for the due execution of the provisions of this section
is not
made...." Suppose with the passage of time, the
system that we have and we retain was found to
be inadequate, then where we have made an
amending law to bring it into line with subsequent times, the Governor in Council
could
intervene.
Mr. Higgins My recollection is that there was
an interpretation given by the Canadians with
whom we spoke. Mr. Smallwood has given that
interpretation. I am inclined to suggest it is the
correct interpretation.
Mr. Higgins You have the right of appeal to
make them enforce it.
Mr. Higgins If section 93 passed, and two
denominations here decided they were going to
amalgamate and any one person of these
denominations objected to that happening, then
if in spite of that one objection, the province or
894 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
the provincial legislature said, "Go ahead" —
section 93 freezes it.
Mr. Chairman In the absence of appeal, it can
be decided upon the intervention made by the
government at Ottawa?
Mr. Higgins Only to enforce section 93, never
to change it. You cannot change it; once you
adopt section 93, we are under section 93 as a
province forever, and the present setup could
never be disturbed at all. Under section 93, the
right to amalgamate is not there.
Mr. Chairman No, under section 93, the right
to amalgamate is not given. I go all the way with
you there.
Mr. Smallwood The difference between section
93 of the BNA Act and this clause in the terms,
is this...
Mr. Smallwood I was not saying it for your
benefit. The difference is this, under the BNA
Act, if section 93 applied to Newfoundland the
school system we have now would be frozen
upon us. It could never change, the denominations now have schools and would go on
having
them for all time; no two denominations could
unite their schools if they wanted to do so. In the
clause in our terms, all denominations are
guaranteed the right to go on forever, as long as
they want to go on, with their own separate
schools. But there is something else added: any
two denominations or more that should ever wish
to unite their schools, that right is given in this
clause. All interests are protected, all conscience
is protected; the beliefs of all people are
protected; no one is denied any right at all. You
can stay as you are, or unite with somebody else.
Mr. Chairman Your point, Mr. Higgins, is that
it is frozen, unless this amendment or alteration
is cited, by amalgamation between two or more
bodies?
Mr. Chairman I am reading both together. I am
reading section 93 in the light of that clause.
Therefore under section 93 it is frozen; in the
light of that clause, it remains frozen but subject
to alteration in the event of two or more communities desiring to amalgamate.
Mr. Higgins And providing further for payment
of monies. It is a definite amendment to 93.
Mr. Newell I am confused. Did I understand him
to say, on the one hand section 93 freezes the
situation as it is now, and on the other hand, under
section 93 there is no right of amalgamation? No
right?
Mr. Newell There is the right now. As it is now,
it is being done, whether legal or illegal.
Mr. Chairman It was my impression it was
frozen; but I think it is the practice that has been
followed in Canada since union.
Mr. Higgins I believe it is being done unofficially. I speak subject to correction.
Mr. Newell I am not sure. I do not know enough
about it. I know there have been various amendments to the Education Act. But it is
my impression that that is covered — the right of groups to
amalgamate if they so desire, no compulsion. If
that is so, I cannot reconcile the statement that if
93 were in force it would remove our right to have
that amalgamation.
Mr. Chairman Mr. Higgins' position is that it
remains frozen unless an alteration is desired
through and by amalgamation; if you wanted to
change what would otherwise be frozen, you
would have to have amalgamation, whereupon
the authorities would act upon it and allow you
to bring about amalgamation.
Mr. Smallwood In reply to Mr. Newell, and to
throw a little more light on the matter — you will
appreciate that in Ottawa it was one thing to be
talking about money but something else again to
be talking about matters in which they believe
deeply. The last thing we wanted or would welcome would be to run counter to the beliefs
or
faiths of the people of Newfoundland. Naturally,
we had to go pretty deeply into this question.
There is a danger, if section 93 applied to Newfoundland, that only two classes of
persons
would be permitted to have schools — Catholic
and Protestant. In other words, the danger would
be that all Protestant schools, whether they liked
it or not, might be forced to unite. Now there is
no good reason why any denomination would be
forced to unite or not to unite. The application of
section 93 might mean exactly that — forcing
that there be only two classes of schools, Catholic
and Protestant, whereas what we have is
Catholic, Church of England, United Church,
Presbyterian, Salvation Army, Seven Day Adventist — I do not know any others, Pentecostal?
And with this clause in these terms, any class or
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 895
any denomination that has a school system now
or at the time we become a province at the date
of union, can go on having that system. They are
guaranteed to have them for all time. On the other
hand, if any two should wish to unite, that right
is also guaranteed them by these terms that are
now offered us by the Government of Canada. All
the rights of everyone are fully protected in these
terms. I do not know if any gentleman in the
Convention desires to take advantage of this
paragraph in the letter of the Prime Minister
where he says, "On the other hand, with respect
to those matters which are primarily of provincial
concern, such as education, the Government of
Canada would not wish to set down any rigid
conditions, and it would be prepared to give
reasonable consideration to suggestions for
modification or addition." I do not know if any
one feels sufficiently knowledgeable, sufficiently competent to make any suggestions
on it. I
would imagine the people most concerned would
probably be the ones to offer any suggestions if
any were to be offered. I do not know if it is a
matter which we as a Convention can do very
much about.
Mr. Higgins In the case of union, it would be a
matter the government would have to take up —
if there was any alteration.
Mr. Smallwood I am not so sure. In the referendum the clause remains as it is now; the people
only know the clause that is there now in the
terms. It seems to me, if they voted for confederation, the government elected after
might not have
the authority to change that clause. The time to
change it, if it is to be changed, is before the
referendum is held.
Mr. Chairman I do not know that that is altogether so. Under this arrangement, if it were to
be adopted, it is made elastic and flexible; which
is why the Prime Minister goes on to point out
that it is not rigid and inflexible. If you want to
suggest any alterations, it would naturally be
done before union takes place quite irrespective
of the manner by which union is effected.
Mr. Higgins We would be negotiating then,
would we not?
Mr. Smallwood We might not exactly be
negotiating. If any member of this Convention or
one or more people had a suggestion to make on
the question, to ask that that question be for
warded to the government of Canada for their
reply — that would not be negotiating.
Mr. Chairman It is clear from the Prime
Minister's letter that if you want to address any
questions, or if you want any alterations considered, they are prepared to take them
under
advisement. It is one thing to write and ask questions, it is another thing to go
back and say you
want this altered. That is really negotiating. It
depends upon the tenor of the communication
addressed as to whether it is negotiating or merely seeking information.
Mr. Smallwood The difficulty is this National
Convention is just a temporary thing elected for
a certain limited period of time; when that is done
we go home. Even at best, we are not all lawyers,
not all professional men, in this matter we have
no standing. We are not the educators of the
country, nor are we the heads of denominations,
we are just a crowd of ordinary fellows blundering along as best we can. I suppose
this letter from
the Prime Minister will have been read outside
this Convention; if citizens wished to make representations on the matter, they could
do so
without being condemned for negotiating or anything of that character. It is not a
matter we can
do very much about. The offer is there, nevertheless, from the Government of Canada,
that it
would be prepared to give "reasonable consideration to suggestions for modification
or addition".
If anyone should care to make any suggestions, I
do not suggest it is necessarily the job for this
Convention or any member of it.
Clause 20: Defence Establishments.
Canada will provide for the maintenance in
Newfoundland of appropriate reserve units
of the Canadian defence forces which will
include the Newfoundland Regiment.
I don't know that there is much I need to say
to explain that clause. It is fairly simple.... I
suppose that what would happen is that stationed
in one or two or three places in Newfoundland
would be units of the Canadian defence forces,
and that amongst these units would be the Newfoundland Regiment. I talked about that
to Mr.
Brooke Claxton, the Minister of National
Defence. Since he was in Australia attending the
peace conference or something between the
United States and Britain and Canada and Russia
on the Japanese situation, it had to be by wireless
that the conversation was carried on between
896 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Ottawa and Australia, between the members of
the Cabinet in Ottawa and Mr. Claxton in
Australia. But then Mr. Claxton came back to
Canada before we left, and I talked with him, and
he said that they would not only establish these
military and naval and air force units in Newfoundland, and maintain and continue
the Newfoundland Regiment, but that every effort would
be made to enlist Newfoundland officers in the
units, but above all in the Newfoundland Regiment; I think the idea would be that
quite a
number of Newfoundlanders with military experience of officer material, would be offered
the
opportunity to serve in these defence units that
the Government of Canada would establish in
Newfoundland.
Mr. Hickman Those reserve units, they would
be something similar to what they have in
Canada? They would not be permanent units, but
they would just meet one or two nights a week,
and have two or three weeks in camp, or something along that line.
Mr. Smallwood Yes. It's like a territorial army,
something like the National Guard in the United
States where men go once or twice a week in their
off-time to drill, and are given their uniforms;
they are not on seven days pay in other words. I
suppose its something like a glorified CLB and
in the summer they have manoeuvres and go into
camp....
Clause 21: Oleomargarine.
Notwithstanding anything contained in
the Dairy Industry Act or any other act of the
Parliament of Canada, oleomargarine and
other substitutes for butter may continue to
be manufactured and sold in Newfoundland
after union unless prohibited or restricted by
the Parliament of Canada at the request of the
Legislature of Newfoundland, provided that
notwithstanding anything contained in Section 121 of the British North America Act,
1867, no such oleomargarine or other substitute for butter may be exported from the
Province of Newfoundland to any other part
of Canada except by authority of the Parliament of Canada.
Mr. Chairman Section 121
[1] provides: "All articles of the Growth, Produce, or Manufacture of
any one of the Provinces shall, from and after the
Union, be admitted free into each of the other
Provinces."
Mr. Smallwood Yes, that section provides for
free trade between Newfoundland and Canada,
but in the matter of oleomargarine that would not
apply. Oleomargarine, although manufactured
and sold in Newfoundland, would not be permitted to go into the rest of Canada while
the
Dairy Industry Act forbids it.
Mr. Smallwood There is a very great and continuing pressure from the public of Canada, going
on for many many months past and still going on
stronger than ever, to permit the manufacture and
sale and importation of margarine into Canada....
Anyway, sir, the point is whatever is the case in
Canada, whether or not Canada will ever permit
margarine to be sold, in Newfoundland it will be
permitted not only to be sold, but to be manufactured, and to be exported if we can
find a market
for margarine in any other country except
Canada. I firmly believe that the Parliament of
Canada is going to remove the present restriction
for all Canada just as they offer in these terms, in
this clause; just as they offer to remove that
restriction for Newfoundland alone, so they are
going to do it for all Canada, perhaps. If they do
sir, it seems at least possible that Newfoundland,
possessing as she does one of the finest factories
in the world making margarine, and I refer of
course to the Newfoundland Butter Company ...
that the minute Canada removes the restriction,
then the Maritime Provinces could, and I believe
would, become at once a natural market for margarine manufactured in Newfoundland....
Mr. Fogwill I wonder if Mr. Smallwood could
tell us if the general sales tax of 8% will be
imposed on the oleomargarine?
Mr. Smallwood As there is no margarine in
Canada it is a little difficult to say whether the
sales tax does apply or not....
Mr. Fogwill Well, according to this, if we are
allowed to manufacture it in Newfoundland it
will be legal. Therefore I wish to ask Mr.
Smallwood if he would find out that information.
It would amount to quite a tidy sum going to
Ottawa each year, somewhere around $190,000.
Mr. Bailey I don't think a sales tax would apply
in Canada, as it does not apply to butter. While
butter in Canada is brought down here ... you will
November 1947 NATIONAL CONVENTION 897
find that when it is off of butter it will be off of
margarine.
Should the government of the province
institute an economic survey of Newfoundland with a view to determining what
resources may profitably be developed and
what new industries may be established or
existing industries expanded, the Government of Canada will make available the services
of technical personnel and agencies to
assist in the work.
As soon as may be practicable after union
the Government of Canada will make a special effort to collect and make available
statistical and scientific data about the natural
resources and economy of Newfoundland, in
order to bring such information up to the
standard attained for existing provinces.
I am personally extremely proud of that
clause, and in my belief it is incomparably far and
away the most important clause in these terms
offered by the Government of Canada, and I am
not overlooking the importance of the other
clauses, family allowances, old age pensions, and
the others. I realise how valuable they are, but to
those who say that all my thoughts are of the
social welfare and social security benefits that
might come to us through confederation, and that
these are the things I consider to be most important, in reply I say now that we have
come to what
is far and away the most important clause in this
document; and I personally am very proud of it
because I was the father of that clause, and the
other members of the delegation will agree with
me on that. The first time I raised the matter in
the plenary session, it was at night, there had been
a meeting of the cabinet that afternoon that lasted
for five and a half hours. It was the longest cabinet
meeting since the war ended.
Mr. Penney I rise to a point of order, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Penney I contend that Mr. Smallwood spent
the time in Ottawa talking about these clauses,
and there is no reason why he should take up the
time of this Convention talking them over one by
one. It is up to the other delegates here to talk
about them. It is not up to Mr. Smallwood to
spend half an hour to an hour on every single
clause in this darn book.
Mr. Chairman Well, Mr. Penney, whether or
not Mr. Smallwood spends too much or too little
time in the interpretation of any of the clauses,
the point is that the procedure was adopted by the
Convention as a whole, and therefore he is simply
complying with the procedure prescribed by the
Convention itself when he reads these clauses.
Mr. Penney There's another side to that, Mr.
Chairman, if you will permit me to say so.
Mr. Chairman If you don't mind, Mr.
Smallwood. There's another aspect to this matter
to which I think you want to address yourself?
Mr. Penney That's right, Mr. Chairman. In
every other report brought in to this Convention
on Newfoundland affairs, the general procedure
was for the chairman of each committee to bring
in the report and make a general explanation of it
and leave it to the delegates to discuss it, and as
a consequence...
Mr. Smallwood To a point of order, Mr. Chairman. This gentleman is completely out of order.
Mr. Chairman That is not quite correct, Mr.
Penney.... It was pointed out that some mode
of procedure had to be adopted. The mode
adopted was that the person who should pilot this
measure, if you will, through the committee of
the whole, should be such a person as appointed
by me. In that connection, Mr. Smallwood
produced and read from a letter from Mr. Bradley
stating his inability to be present, and asking Mr.
Smallwood to deputise for Mr. Bradley. I intimated to members at that time that if
you vested
in me the power to appoint somebody to pilot the
terms, then I would appoint Mr. Smallwood. As
far as I know the Convention ratified my appointment, and as far as I am now concerned
Mr.
Penney, however unwelcome it may appear to
you, I have to hold at this time that Mr.
Smallwood is only following the procedure that
he was directed, at the instance of the Convention, to follow, when he was appointed
by me
during and because of the absence of Mr. Bradley, to proceed with the matter now before
us.
Mr. Penney Ask you another question, sir? If I
have to sit here all through this rigmarole of stuff
and be punished...
898 NATIONAL CONVENTION November 1947
Mr. Smallwood Point of order, Mr. Chairman.
This man is insulting. This man is completely
insulting! Who does he think he is, sir? Does he
think his money gives him the right to act like a
clown? Who is he anyway? The old fossil!
Mr. Chairman You will both take your seats,
please. Take your seat please, Mr. Smallwood.
Mr. Smallwood It is money versus brains,
maybe. This man is insulting, I am not going to
be insulted. Who does he think he is? I am not
going to be insulted by a man merely because he
has money. Does he think just because he has
money it gives him the right to act like a clown?
Mr. Chairman It is rather late to take issue on
the procedure, Mr. Penney. I would remind you
we are on clause 22; there is only another clause
to be read. If for any reason you were objecting
to the procedure which has been employed all the
way through, why did you not speak on your
rights before?.... I have to enforce the mode of
procedure as I understand it....
Mr. Penney I submit to your ruling. But it would
be only fair to keep the rest in and let them sit
through the sessions too.
[The committee rose and reported progress. Mr.
Higgins gave notice of a question concerning the
replacement cost of Newfoundland government
property. Mr. Miller gave notice of questions
asking whether the federal government would
maintain existing railway, coastal boat,
telegraph, and postal services without increased
cost.
The Convention adjourned]
