THE NORTH WEST
Sir George E. Cartier rose to move the House
into Committee on the resolutions respecting
the acquisition of the North West Territory.
Mr. Mackenzie desired to take the opportunity of obtaining an explanation from the
Ministry regarding the recent accession to
their ranks, in the person of the President of
the Council. He had been unwilling to ask
those explanations hitherto, because for some
time that hon. gentleman was not in his place,
and when he did take his seat was obviously
not in the best possible trim for giving the
required explanations. But before entering on
the important subject before them, it was
quite evident that the House ought to be furnished with a statement of the circumstances
which had induced the hon. member for Hants
to enter the Cabinet. It would be remembered
that last year the President of the Council,
then sitting on the Opposition side of the
House, took very strong grounds against the
acquisition of the North West Territory.
Speaking, as he then said, not from a purely
Nova Scotian point of view, but from a Canadian aspect, the hon. gentleman advanced
very strong reasons for taking that positionreasons which ought to exclude the hon.
gentleman from holding office in any government proposing to deal with this subject,
as
the present administration proposed to do.
And when so radical a change had taken
place in the character of the government, or
the position of the hon. gentleman joining
them, it was due to the House that some explanations should be given. There was another
point to which he also wished to direct attention, and that was that the Government
had not yet given the House an opportunity
of pronouncing on the new terms made with
Nova Scotia. Had they done so, he would
before this have asked for the explanations.
The hon. gentleman might recollect that on
the floor of that House, he contended that
Nova Scotia had been despoiled of half a million dollars by the Union Act. He stated,
while
it was a matter of concern that these revenues
should be taken by Canada under an enforced
Union, that was nothing compared with the
other outrage that she had been robbed of her
liberties. It was certainly due to the country
that the hon. gentleman should state how it
was that, having held and uttered such sentiments, he subsequently became a member
of
the Government which was not only responsible for the initiation of that robbery,
but for
474 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
its maintenance. For his part, he (Mr. Mackenzie) never could see the precise point
where the robbery took place or where the
liberties of that Province had been lost, but
he had been touched while the member for
Hants, with moist eyes and uplifted face,
alluded so feelingly to the departed liberties of
his country. Tears started unbidden to the
hon. gentleman's eyes on that occasion, and
finding him claim that his country would suffer the loss of all her liberties in consequence
of this Union, he (Mr. Mackenzie) felt bound
to vote for the appointment of a Committee to
find out where we could relieve that Province
from the oppression spoken of. And now that
the member for Hants had become President
of the Council, it was fair to conclude that in
some mysterious way the liberties of that
country had been restored. It was possible
that the hon. gentleman had joined the Government as others had done before him in
violation of all his political proclivities (Hear,
hear.) Then it was only another step in that
political dependence which seems to be a
dogma of the Government of this country
every day—a step which in the interests of
public morality was very much to be regretted. When men holding the most diverse opinions,
politically, find a safe refuge in a Government we are driven to believe that these
gentlemen after all attach more value to obtaining office than maintaining their patriotic
impressions. (Hear, hear.) Was it to be supposed that the hon. gentlemen carried with
them into the Cabinet all their conflicting
views of public policy on almost every conceivable subject? Or were they all subordinated
by the views of the Minister of Justice?
He (Mr. Mackenzie) confessed his astonishment at the position taken by the President
of
the Council, and thought it was evident that
the hon. gentleman's country-men generally
looked on his accession to office as a purely
personal matter. That accession had produced
not conciliation and contentment, but merely
changed the channel through which the stream
of discontent poured. Annexation doctrines
were now openly advocated in the very House
of Assembly of Nova Scotia, and most scandalous speeches and resolutions, from a
British point of view, were daily made in that
body. These facts were significant of political
degradation, and for that hon. gentleman's own
sake, as well as for that of the Government
and the country, it was exceedingly to be regretted that such events should transpire,
as
they could not possibly strengthen the Government, but would weaken it and destroy
the
bonds of political morality which binds together in this country, men holding sentiments
475
in common. Holding these views, he felt bound
to ask some explanation.
Hon. Mr. Howe thanked the member for
Lambton in not raising this debate till his
(Mr. Howe's) strength had been somewhat
restored. He thought it due to the House and
hon. gentleman opposite, to state candidly and
fairly the reason why he occupied his present
position. He would say to them in all frankness that perhaps he might not have been
on
the Ministerial side at all, had the member for
Lambton and the hon. gentlemen acting with
him made the other side of the House at all
habitable. (Laughter.) When he (Mr. Howe)
attended the House and spent forty days on
that side, had he as an old Reformer, and an
old Liberal, found that sympathy and support
he thought himself entitled to, perhaps he
might have remained with them. (Laughter).
The men on the Ministerial side had accepted
the situation—were committed to it, were the
executive instruments by which it was to be
carried out, and on the other side of the House
almost every member, including the member
for Lambton himself, was equally committed
to the act of Confederation. If he understood
the member for Lambton then he (Mr. Howe)
was to place himself in this position: he was to
attend that House, obey the law, and submit
to the Act of Confederation, which had been
gained by the pressure of both parties in
Canada—and to occupy an isolated position, in
such a happy position, commanding no sympathy on the one side of the House nor the
other, he was to spend the remainder of his
days for the edification and amusement of
hon. gentlemen on both sides (Hear and
laughter). Had he devoted himself to an
isolated existence of that kind he should
certainly be a martyr to a very high sense
of honour, but if he needed such justification
he might almost make an excuse for occupying his present position by saying that
he was only following the custom of the
country. (Laughter.) Were he to believe the
half of what he heard, and he was free to
say he did not, were he to believe the charge
which he had heard flung by public men
at each other across the floor of the House
during the forty days he had first attended it, he could consider that the tone of
political morality was so high in Canada
that he had violently transgressed it in crossing the floor of the House. (Laughter.)
He came there a stranger and would do
hon. gentlemen the justice to say that he
476
COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
had been treated with all courtesy. His complaints of the Dominion Act might, for
a
time, have been querulous and declamatory,
but he had been treated with courtesy and
respect by both sides, and so far he had
no thing to complain of. But he certainly did
expect some hon. gentlemen on the Opposition
benches to have arisen and said that Nova
Scotia had been hardly used, that there was
good ground for the excitement in that Province, and to have sympathised with him
in
his efforts on behalf of that Province, not to
the extent, perhaps, of releasing Nova Scotians
from this political arrangement. What took
place during the second part of the session
he did not know, for he was not in the House
then, but during the time he was present, his
cause received so little sympathy from the
member for Lambton, or his party, that he
(Mr. Howe) did not feel at all trammelled as
to which side of the House he would sit on
hereafter. The hon. gentleman then detailed
his subsequent agitation for repeal. How he
spent nine months in England, backed by
petitions from 30,000 people. How the Act
passed in spite of every remonstrance. How,
on his return to Nova Scotia, so strong was
the dislike to Confederation, that during the
election the Unionists were almost completely
swept out of political existence. How, along
with others, he subsequently went to England
to induce the Imperial authorities to reconsider the question of Repeal. How, when
the
question came up in the House of Lords,
only two out of 400 spoke in favour of it,
while in the House of Commons only 87 could
be found to favour, not the repeal of the Act,
but the enquiry into its workings. How, under
these circumstances, he returned to his home
feeling convinced that repeal was hopeless;
but not before warning the British Minister
that one result would be the generation of
an annexation feeling, as the member for
Lambton had asserted that an annexation
feeling had sprung up. It was not to be
attributed to his changed position, but a
feeling of soreness on account of the treatment received from the British Government.
He had not succeeded in his mission. What
then was he to do? To sit down and do
nothing? The member for Lambton seemed to
think that he (Mr. Howe) would escape from
the public position he had assumed. But he
had been elected. His constituents and countrymen looked to him for advice and action.
What was he to do? To go screaming out for
repeal? To advise the people to break the
laws, and resist the power and authority of
the Imperial Government? He would not undertake to say what he would have done had
he the power, (hear, hear), but the power
477
and force brought to bear against his position was too great to resist. Therefore
he felt
that there was nothing to do but to accept
the situation or enter into a hopeless, dreary
contest, which could have but one result.
(Cheers.) Just at that time, when we tried
everything else and failed, hon. gentlemen
from this side of the House came down to us
and said—"We cannot repeal this Act, and do
not wish to do so, but we are willing to reexamine the financial part of the scheme,
and
if it is shown that by it injustice has been or
is to be done to Nova Scotia, we will endeavour to repair the injustice." His first
policy was to test the sincerity of these professions. Negotiations went on, and bye
and
bye it was quite apparent to the Finance
Minister of Canada and the Auditor General
that a gross injustice had been done Nova
Scotia; and when this acknowledgement was
made there was a fair ground for negotiations
for better terms. Shutting out for the present
any reference to these better terms, as that
branch of the subject would come up in a
few days, he would merely say that the negotiations were brought to a close and Mr.
McLelan and himself were satisfied that justice would be done Nova Scotia. The Ministry
by that act established a larger claim to his
respect and confidence. The Minister of Justice then did him the honour to renew an
offer made months before to take a seat in
the Cabinet. He felt they had established a
claim on him, and said frankly, "if you think
it will strengthen your hands in carrying this
measure through Parliament to have my aid
and assistance in the Cabinet, you can have
it. As far as I am concerned, I would rather
continue as I am." He made one reservation,
however. He had no hope from the new Government established in England, but many in
Nova Scotia hoped to get repeal from them.
The reservation he made was this: The moment the Local Government got their answer
from the Gladstone Government, if it was
unfavourable, as he expected, he was to consider himself free to take office. The
answer
came, was unfavourable, and he had then no
hesitation. As to his opposition to the purchase of the Hudson's Bay Territory, he
had
opposed that purchase with all sincerity, believing that it should have been the work
of
the Imperial authorities, and not of the
Dominion, but the policy of the majority of
the House opposed to that was carried out.
The delegates went to England, the purchase
was made, and arrangements completed almost before he entered the Cabinet. Now,
what would the member for Lambton have
him to do? Was he to regard that as a
stumbling-block in the way of entering the
478
COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
Cabinet? That would be a most extraordinary
doctrine, from the day he entered the Cabinet
he held himself responsible for the acts and
policy of the gentlemen with whom he was
associated, but for anything before that period,
for any of their sins of omission or commission he did not hold himself responsible.
Hon. Mr. Howe—They are merely carrying
out a policy from which none of us can go
back with honour. No public man can get
up and ask to have that purchase repealed.
All he could say was that he entered the Cabinet covered to a large extent by revolutionary
arrangements which he resisted, and if it
were to be made a rule that none of us opposing Confederation and its concomitants
should
ever enter the Cabinet, then Nova Scotia
would have very slight representation there.
(Hear, hear.) For his part, as long as he found
the gentlemen with whom he was associated
sincerely anxious to carry out a policy conducive to the welfare of the Dominion,
he
should act with them, and sustain them; and
the moment he could not do so conscientiously,
he would tender his resignation.
Hon. Dr. Tupper said that the subject which
had been brought forward was well worthy
of the earnest attention of the House. On a
former occasion he had followed the hon.
member for Hants in debate, and stated that
he deeply deplored that that hon. gentleman
occupied a position which prevented him giving the country the benefit of his services
in
the administration. With equal sincerity, and
an equal sense of public duty, he now felt it
right to express his gratification that the hon.
gentleman had at last been enabled to take
a more prominent and responsible position in
the conduct of public affairs. He had never
479
believed that repeal would be successful, but
what he had felt was that the vital interests
of the Dominion required that the difficulty as
respects Nova Scotia should be removed, and
the Union enabled to present an unbroken
front to the world. He had no hesitation, however, in saying that the difficulty in
that
Province was very much exaggerated from
the outset. He had never looked upon the
issue of the elections of 1867 as evincing the
desire of the people for Repeal. He had
believed and had stated in the House the
circumstances which warranted him in coming
to the conclusion that by a moderate and
judicious course of action all the difficulty
might be removed. He had, indeed, always
pressed upon the administration the necessity of making such arrangements. He felt
that the sooner the representatives of Nova
Scotia were able to work out the constitution,
the better for the interests of the whole Dominion. Some time ago the Government had
done him the honour of offering him a high
and responsible position in the administration, but having given that subject the
fullest
consideration, he felt it his duty to decline.
And he had done so on the ground that he
should consider how far the acceptance of
office would leave him free to advance the
interests of his country. He had considered
that the acceptance of such a position would
mar his usefulness in connection with measures that might reconcile the people to
the
Union. He did not hesitate to advise the Government—to say to them that he believed
it
was a solemn duty which they owed to the
whole people of the Dominion to exhaust
every means consistent with the honour and
rights of the country, to bring representatives
of the people of Nova Scotia into harmonynot with the Government of the country so
much as with the institutions of the Dominion.
The House would remember that in the most
impassioned appeal he had made on the
question, he had implored the anti-Union
representatives, instead of standing outside
of the constitution, to come forward and assist
in perfecting these institutions. The Government had done him the honour to delegate
him in England, for the purpose of giving the
British Government all the information he
possessed on the question.
Mr. Le Vesconte rose and said he would, if
the debate continued, claim the right to be
heard in reply to the member for Cumberland.
Sir John A. Macdonald said he had to complain of the member for Lambton, and, in a
much greater degree, of the Speaker, for
allowing this debate to proceed. The simple
question was, that the House should go into
480 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
Committee on the resolutions respecting the
acquisition of the Hudson's Bay territory; and
as the hon. member for Lambton, who sat
there self-convicted, had contrived to originate this debate, now that it had been
originated, perhaps it had better proceed and let
the matter be fully discussed.
Hon. John Sandfield Macdonald objected to
proceeding with the debate. It was altogether
out of order and hindering the public business
at a time when many members like himself
were anxious to get home.
Hon. Mr. Tupper said he was not at all
anxious to discuss the matter at present.
Hon. Mr. Holton upheld the action of the
Speaker. It was not usual in the House for the
Speaker to call a gentleman to order who rose
to demand, at a fitting time, explanations
which it was usual to ask when a gentleman
joined the Administration. But the member
for Hants being allowed the widest possible
latitude in reply, there the discussion ought to
end.
Mr. Mackenzie contended that he was perfectly in order when he rose. The Speaker
did not know but that he meant to follow up
his speech with a motion.
The Speaker defended his position on
similar grounds, and said that his impression
was that the Honourable member for Lambton was going to conclude his speech with a
motion.
Sir George E. Cartier then proceeded to address the House on the subject of the North
West resolutions. He announced in the first
place, as the resolutions involved a money
appropriation, that they were introduced with
the consent of His Excellency the Governor
General. It was needless for him to say that
the subject of these resolutions was very important. The acquisition of the North
West had
been under the consideration of the Government and Parliament of the late Province
of Canada for a number of years. It had
also engaged the attention of the Parliament
of the Dominion, and resolutions having that
object in view had been adopted last session.
It was difficult to know how to begin in undertaking to deal with so important a question.
He proposed to make no preface, but to go
481
into the subject at once and to show that the
contemplated arrangement should be cheerfully acquiesced in by the House. The papers
showing the proceedings of himself and his
colleague in England had been laid before the
House. In considering the acquisition of so
important a territory we were naturally induced to consider the history of the successive
acquisition of territory by our neighbours in
the United States. The original 13 States comprised a territory much more limited
than that
which the United States now possessed; but
no sooner did they acquire their independence
than they entered on a policy of losing no
opportunity of acquiring new territory. First,
they got Louisiana. Some Americans were
opposed to this, thinking they had territory
enough; but the other idea prevailed, and
that territory was acquired, affording the material out of which five States have
been
erected. Not satisfied with this, American
statesmen looked to the necessity of extending
their territory from the Atlantic to the Pacific,
and that idea was finally accomplished. It had
taken them, however, nearly 50 years to
complete this project; but if the measures
now before the House was carried out, we
would acquire almost by one act a greater
extent of territory, and in some respects more
important, than what the United States had
acquired during the last 50 years; for British
Columbia was standing ready to meet us
as soon as we took possession of the Northwest. It was a matter of glorification to
us
that in so short a time since we entered into
Confederation, we had made such progress.
Who, under such circumstances, could say that
this Confederation had not been successful?
In this measure we were completing the territorial element for which protective provision
had been made in the Act of Confederation.
He would not go into the whole history of the
negotiations in England, as all the facts were
known to the House. He might explain, however, the reason why he and his colleague
had
been detained so long in conducting these
negotiations. They had been entered upon
with the late Government, and when the
change of Government took place, they had
to be commenced again from the beginning. He
thought any one acquainted with the facts
would admit that he and his colleague had not
unnecessarily delayed the proceedings. The
severe illness which nearly proved fatal to his
colleague, aggrieved by intelligence of the fatal
illness of the being dearest to him in life, was
another cause of delay. What they had succeeded in achieving, however, he was sure
would redound to the prosperity of this country, and the country should be especially
482 COMMONS
DEBATES May 28, 1869
grateful to his colleague, who had done his
work and done it well, under the most trying
circumstances. The agreement entered into
resolved itself into two principal points as
regarded what Canada had to pay for the
acquisition of the North-West Territory; the
first being a money payment of £300,000, and
the second a reserve to the Company of one-
twentieth of the land in the Fertile Belt. The
other points were matters of detail. The member for Chateauguay had declared that
Canada
had got the worst of the bargain. He challenged the hon. gentleman to make good that
assertion in the course of this debate, and to
criticise freely the arrangement made in all its
details. Some misconceptions had in the first
instance arisen from certain hostile criticisms
in the press; but these had very much disappeared in consequence of the explanation
given by himself and his colleague since their
return to Canada. He was prepared to contend
that this agreement gave us the territory on
more favourable terms than those on which
we would have acquired it had the address of
last session been carried out. Under that
address we would have got the sovereignty of
country without territory. Under this arrangement we get both, on making a moderate
money payment. That payment of £300,000
raised on Imperial Guarantee at 3½ per cent
interest, with a sinking fund to extinguish the
debt in 45 years would not involve a charge of
more than £13,000 or £14,000 a year, while
on the other hand we would get customs dues
of nearly that amount. Sir Curtis Lampson the
Deputy Governor of the Company, had stated
that they were willing to pay £10,000 a year
in commutation of customs dues. For this
trifling amount we secured this immense territory. The question arose what should
we do
with it? Should we at once commence a railway through the territory, or should we
be
satisfied with Provincial work which would
furnish the necessary summer communication?
That question was not at present before the
House and he merely referred to it for the
purpose of saying that whether we decided
on a railway or provisional communication,
we had acquired means sufficient to accomplish either object, as it was well known
that
the United States had built their Pacific Railway by grants of lands along the line.
He
proceeded to refer to the increase our credit
had received in the money markets in the
world. The Dominion of Canada was now as
well known as the United States, and it was
known that we intended to be great. He did
not mean that we were to be independent. All
our dependence now, consisted in England
giving us a Governor General, and he was
483
willing that we should remain dependent to
that extent. He was willing that we should
remain under the protection of the British
Navy. If we were independent we would require to have a navy of our own, but so long
as we enjoyed the protection of a navy for
nothing at all, we would not ask that we
should be free from our present dependence.
As regarded then the money payment, he did
not think any one would say the bargain was
hard for Canada. He would come now to the
reserve of lands.
Sir George E. Cartier was not surprised to
hear the interruptions of the member for
Chateauguay. He supposed the hon. gentleman was to build up a great argument against
that, and to refer to the Clergy Reserves of
Upper Canada as having obstructed the progress of the country. The arrangements made
here were very different from those with
regard to the Clergy Reserves. Suppose the
fertile Belt contained forty millions of acres,
the reserve to the Company of one twentieth
would be two million acres, spread here and
there, subject to municipal taxation, for roads
and other improvements, and belonging to a
Company whose interest it would be to settle
the reserved lots as soon as possible, and to
have the other lands also settled, in order that
the reserved lots might have as much value
as possible. It had been objected that the
corporate rights of the Hudson's Bay Company
should not be continued. He thought it was
for the interest of the country that those
rights should be continued. The number of
Indians in the territory was very great. Sir
George Simpson had estimated the number
at half a million souls. Governor Mactavish
thought this estimate was exaggerated, but
believed the number would be from 180,000
to 200,000. These Indians had been dependent
on the Company for employment and if this
were suddenly interfered with the results
might be disastrous. The officers of the Company had shown a creditable regard for
the
welfare of the Indians and had, as stated by
the delegates, to see that a law was passed
which would prevent the sale of liquor to the
Indians. He had answered them that we
already had a law which would have that
effect. He went on to say that we had a great
future before us. We had already a population nearly half as great as that of the
States
of New York, Pennsylvania and the New
England States combined, and our population
was increasing more rapidly than theirs. Bos
484 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869 ton had, in a large measure, lost the sea
trade, and was not growing. The population
of New England was hardly increasing at all.
The population of the State of New York, outside the city, was not increasing. Pennsylvania
was almost at a stand still. The Provinces
at present embraced in the Confederation
could maintain as large a population as the
States ever had maintained; but what we
wanted hitherto had been the prairie element.
Under the measure now submitted we would
have that element. We would have, like the
United States a great West, and he did not
doubt that after ten years the census would
show that we were increasing in a greater
ratio than even the United States as a whole.
After recess,
THE NORTH-WEST
Sir George E. Cartier resumed his remarks
on the North-West resolutions. He said for the
last 15 or 20 years the principal increase of
population of the United States had been in
the Western States. Within a few months we
would be in possession of a prairie territory
equal to that of the United States, and as the
people of Ontario, Quebec, Nova Scotia and
New Brunswick, were a population of producing people, their natural increase would
rapidly fill up our western territory. We might
look very soon for the admission of Newfoundland. British Columbia was ready to come
in,
therefore, with the acquisition of the North
West. We might say we had completed our
territorial organization. Who could foretell the
future before us? Was it too much to expect
that in ten years we would have doubled our
population from natural increase? and taking
into account the immigration that would be
attracted, we might in ten years be a population of ten millions. The increase of
trade
would be correspondingly vast. Then we
would have an increase to the maritime ele
485ment by the addition to the Confederation of
British Columbia and Vancouver's Island. We
had heard lately the great boast of our neighbours over the completion of their Pacific
Railway, which was 3,400 miles from the
Pacific to New York. When our Confederation
was complete, British capitalists would probably turn their attention to bringing
to
England the trades of the east by a railway
through British territory, which from the
Pacific to Quebec would be only 2,200 miles
in length—a saving of 1,200 miles, as compared with the Pacific Line just opened.
With
this great territory at our disposal, it would
be a matter for us to consider whether we
should not devote a portion of it to encourage
capitalists to undertake that railway. He did
not say what was the policy of the Government on that matter. They had not yet
adopted a policy with regard to it. But so
soon as this address was passed, the Government would introduce a measure to establish
a Provincial Government in that great
country, as the English Government might
issue the proclamation giving effect to our
address before this Parliament met again. It
was important that not a month or day should
be lost, after the territory became ours, in
organizing a Government and having the
lands surveyed, and their character made
known throughout this country and Europe.
It was a consoling idea to himself and the
member for Lambton, if not to the President
of the Council, that very soon all that was
contemplated by the British America Act
would be accomplished. He did not think it
likely that any more would be heard about
annexation. If it were possible to conceive
such a thing brought about, all the money we
collected here for the benefit and support of
the Dominion Government, and to pay the
subsidies to the different Provinces, would be
sent to Washington to be jobbed away there;
and he hoped we would hear no more about
independence either, for independence was
merely a project to serve as a cover to annexation. He had been called an enemy to
the
acquisition of the North West Territory. This
was not the case. All he had opposed was its
being annexed to Upper Canada. He believed
he had now the support of all his hon. friends
from Quebec, in going heartily for acquiring
that territory. In conclusion, he stated that
he had made a mistake, the other day, in
announcing that there was some despatches
which had not been brought down. He found
that they had all been laid before the House.
The gallant baronet resumed his seat amidst
cheers, having spoken for an hour and a half.
486 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
Hon. Mr. McDougall, in seconding the resolutions, said it was unnecessary now to go
over the history of this question. The only
point now to be considered was whether the
terms and conditions which had been agreed
upon in England were terms and conditions
which this Parliament and the country ought
to oppose. The member for Chateauguay had
stated that the delegates from Canada had
been outwitted in the bargain. It was for the
House to consider whether that was the fact.
He freely admitted that he had been strongly
of the opinion, that the position maintained by
the various governments of Canada was correct, that the Hudson's Bay Co. has no such
right or property in the country we desired to
obtain, as would justify their demanding a
money consideration for them. It could not be
denied, however, that in Ruperts Land, they
had rights which would have been recognized
in the courts of England. All these rights of a
proprietary character were extinguished by
this agreement. They would still exist as a
trading company, but would have no proprietary rights. He considered that if we had
paid £300,000 to extinguish the proprietary and
governing rights of the Company in Ruperts
Land alone, it would have been well expended,
inasmuch as it was of great importance to us
that there should be nobody possessing a
separate governing jurisdiction between us
and the Arctic Ocean. It should be remembered too that we would have a valuable equivalent
in the custom duties which would be
received. He had seen it estimated, looking to
the quality of goods imported for a series of
years, that the Hudson's Bay Company would
have to pay annually £30,000.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said the interest would
have to be paid at 4 p. c. on £100,000. The
custom duties received would be say, £20,000.
The deputy-Governor of the Company has
stated his willingness to commute it for £10,000. He knew that the great difficulty
with Sir
Stafford Northcote and Sir Curtis Lampson
was to convince their shareholders that they
were not losers by the transaction.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said the hon. gentleman would find out if he read the reports in
newspapers.
487
Hon. Mr. Galt—Perhaps Earl Granville had
something to do in convincing them.
Hon. Mr. McDougall thought it probable
that Earl Granville's persuasive eloquence had
something to do with it. As regards the
reserve of one-twentieth of the land, he
believed it would be a great advantage
to us to have a great company like this with
a direct interest in the development and
improvement of the country. This would be a
great advantage to us if for example we had
to go into the money market to borrow money
for improving the Territory. One-twentieth
was after all a small proportion of the land as
compared with one-seventh reserved for the
Clergy of Upper Canada, and which had undoubtedly been an obstacle to the improvement
of the Country. It had been arranged
also through the efforts of the delegates, that
the reserved lands should be subject to taxation from the outset, which was a very
important difference from the Clergy Reserve
arrangement. The Hudson's Bay Company
would occupy a very different relation towards Canada from what they had hitherto
done. Formerly their interest had been to keep
settlers out of the Country, their interests were
in all respects adverse to those of Canada. Now
their interests would be the same as ours, and
they would heartily co-operate with us. We
would find this a great advantage in the management of the Indians. In the United
States
the Government of the Indians was a source of
great difficulty: it was said they cost the Government on an average $50 a head; but
with
the co-operation of the Hudson's Bay Company
under whose influence the Indians had grown
up, and whose agencies were scattered all
through the country, we would find ourselves
advantageously situated in this respect. A
short Indian war would probably cost us
a great deal more than the whole sum would
were we to pay for the territory. The next
question, and the practical one we had to
deal with, was what we were to do in the
way of developing the territory. There had
been laid on the desks of members today the
last report by Mr. Dawson on this subject.
He (Mr. McDougall) considered the first thing
we had to do was to fill up the gaps in the
fine chain of water communication between
Lake Superior and Fort Garry. He had observed that some parties had been organizing
companies, with the view of undertaking
railway communication at once. He thought,
however, on a close examination of the features of the country, it would be discovered
that, if there was on this continent any portion of the country through which it would
be exceedingly difficult to run a railway, it
488
COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
was this country lying between Lake Superior and Fort Garry. It was a country of lakes,
and it would occasionally be necessary to
deviate 30 or 40 miles from a straight line to
avoid these lakes. Until, therefore, the country was better explored, and it was seen
whether, as reported by the Indians, a level
country was to be found farther to the north,
the Government would be disposed to go on
with the improvements already begun. It
would be observed from Mr. Dawson's report
that last year's exploration had resulted in
the discovery of a route twenty miles shorter
than the Dog Lake route formerly explored.
The Government had assumed the responsibility of the appropriation of a sum of
money for the relief of the distress of the
Red River Settlement, and the amount thus
appropriated having been expended in giving
employment on a portion of the road from
Fort Garry to Lake of the Woods,—35 miles,
or one-third of the whole, had already been
completed. If the House granted the necessary
funds, he hoped that by another season there
would be a line of wagon roads and water
communication from the head of Lake Superior to Fort Garry quite practicable for conveying
emigrants. It had been found that
water communication was the best and
cheapest for conveying emigrants, and also
for a large proportion of the goods that would
be taken west. In illustration of this proposition, he quoted a statement by Mr. Hatch,
showing that by the Erie Canal alone, as
compared with railway communication, there
had been effected a saving annually to the
great consuming classes of the West of
$36,800,000. He might mention, as showing
what was thought among the monied men
of New York, of the capabilities of the territory he had now acquired, that no sooner
was it known there that this territory was
about to pass from the Hudson's Bay Company
into the hands of Canada, than steps were
taken to push on immediately the railway
from the head of Lake Superior to St. Paul.
Some three or four millions of bonds for this
purpose had been sold in the New York
market, showing the confidence the public
had in the value of railways in that section
from the trade that would spring up in the
settlement of the interior country. It was unnecessary to dwell on the importance
of this
acquisition to the people of Canada. We had
passed that period. It was manifest, however,
we had obtained a great inheritance. The
facts regarding its value were well stated in
Mr. Russell's recent work. Canada, with this
country added to it, would be equal to the
extent of Russia in Europe, which sustained
489
sixty-nine millions of people. To fill up, and
organize and develop, and govern such a
country would give scope and employment
enough for all our skill and energies. The
utmost anxiety had been shown by the Duke
of Buckingham, the Earl of Granville, and
other British Ministers to obtain for Canada
on terms which would not be burdensome to
us, the control and management of the territory, and it was evident that so soon as
the
transfer was made there would be in the
mother country a strong desire on the part
of those who wished to better their condition
to emigrate to Canada, with the view of
proceeding to the North-West, and there finding new homes under the shelter of British
institutions. That desire already existed, and
it would be very much increased when it
became known that we had taken posssession
of the country and organized a suitable Government over it. He considered we were
now
on the eve of obtaining the great objects we
had in contemplation. When the Coalition
Government of 1864 was formed the Minister
of Militia had informed the House that there
was at that time a prospect of securing the
admission of Newfoundland. We knew that
British Columbia was only waiting the settlement of the question with regard to the
Northwest territory, to ask admission also; so
that we might look forward to having our
Confederacy extend in a short time from
ocean to ocean, as was contemplated in the
Quebec resolutions. At the time of the Toronto
Convention, he (Mr. McDougall) was subjected
to a good deal of unpleasant comments from
his former political friends, the member for
Lambton and others, for having resolved to
maintain his position in the Government until
the work they had undertaken was completed. He recollected the sneer with which
the acquisition of the North West was referred to, as if it would take many years
to
bring that about, and as if he made the completion of the work merely an excuse for
remaining in office. He was proud to believe
that they were now on the eve of the completion of that work, and that it would be
entirely completed before this Government,
in its present form, was dissolved. Only when
it was so completed would he feel that he had
accomplished the work which he set about
in 1864; and all the assaults made on him
would fall harmless in presence of the fact
that they had achieved a successful result
in finishing the great work they had then
undertaken.
Mr. Mackenzie said that looking at the particular point as to whether it was better to
accept such terms or continue an almost in
490 COMMONS DEBATESMay 28, 1869 erminable negotiation, he thought it a wise
step to close up the matter at once. He had
never doubted that the Hudson's Bay Company had territorial rights in certain sections.
But on the other hand he never had any
doubt that they had no territorial rights in
any portion of the territory likely to become
valuable to this country. He dissented altogether from the view expressed by the Minister
of Public Works, who considered the
payment of one million and a half net a large
sum to get possession of all the North Saskatchewan Valley, Hudson's Bay and whatever
portion of Labrador the Company had.
There was one matter which the delegates
ought to have insisted on more strongly. From
Sir Stafford Northcote's letter it was easily
to be inferred that he thought the claim of
the Company to the fertile Belt could not be
maintained, and he could not conceive why,
under the circumstances, the delegates should
have assented to the Company's getting one-
twentieth of this fertile tract to which they
could maintain no title. He observed too, that
the Canadian delegates in their note conveying
the acceptance of the terms offered require
that the proposal should be accepted pure
and simple as submitted by Earl Granville,
but the hon. gentleman subsequently accepted
a modification of these terms, which was, in
his (Mr. Mackenzie's) opinion, very objectionable. By Earl Granville's letter the
North
Saskatchewan was made the boundary of the
fertile belt in which the Company might
choose lands; but our delegates agreed to
allow the Company to choose their one-twentieth on the north instead of the south
branch
of the Saskatchewan. The best portion of the
land being on the north branch, it would be
seen that the Company would in this instance
make a most profitable exchange. Then, again,
the delegates most unwisely agreed to the
proposition that the townships to be formed
on the north branch should not extend to a
greater depth than five miles. In that case,
the Company could obtain their twentieth
within five miles of the river, while the
settlers would have to go beyond the five
miles, and allow the Company's land to be
in front. The Company ought to have been
bound to accept their one-twentieth in every
section of the survey, no matter how far
north it extended. Again, another condition
agreed to was that no taxation should be
imposed for a period of 10 years on the Company's land. In this way it was agreed
that
the Company should not be bound to select
their twentieth till the expiration of ten years,
and during that period they would have the
right to withhold the taxes from the municipalities which might be formed.
491
Hon. Mr. McDougall explained that according to Article 6, it would be observed that the
Company might defer the exercise of this for
ten years, but they did so subject to the condition that they must take their land
from
that remaining unsold at the time. What would
be the result? Sooner than wait till the best of
the land had been taken up by the shrewd
agents in the country, the Hudson's Bay Company would select their land in the townships
as soon as they were laid out.
Mr. Mackenzie knew that the saving clause
alluded to was in; but why should this agreement have been made at all? Who proposed
it? Did not the Company? Why should they
do so, if it were no advantage to them?
Hon. Mr. McDougall said that the Company
proposed an arrangement by which they hoped
to escape taxation for ten years, but the delegates would not agree to it.
Mr. Mackenzie merely desired to point out
these things as blemishes which might have
been avoided. With regard to the settlement of
the country, that was a matter so exceedingly
desirable that he felt disposed to aid the Government in every way in order to accomplish
it. (Cheers.) He considered that it would be
impracticable to pour a large body of emigrants into that country at once, taking
into
account the lands to be occupied yet in Canada. But it was always possible to send
a vast
tide of emigration to these great prairies. If we
are to succeed in populating half the continent
by emigration from the Old World, as is contemplated in this scheme, it must be done
by
opening, as speedily as possible, a road whereby emigrants can reach the North West
by
way of the head of Lake Superior. With our
population and country, he believed it would
be impossible to absorb more than a certain
proportion every year, until we reached that
country; but once having reached that point,
he believed we would be able to fill up as fast
as the territories were filled up by our Republican neighbours. The hon. gentleman
proceeded to allude to the numbers leaving Canada annually—the surplusage of their
population and expressed the belief that they would
as soon as a road were opened go to people
this great North West. As to a railroad to that
section, it was not, as the Commissioner
thought, impracticable, for he (Mr. Mackenzie)
believed a good line might be constructed
along the Ottawa Valley and behind the dividing ridge to the Lake Superior section
and
thence to Fort Garry. (Hear, hear.) He looked
upon the acquisition of this territory as one
of the most important transactions affecting
492 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
the Dominion at present, and trusted within
a very few years to see thousands pour into
this territory. With regard to the opening of
the road, he alluded to the fact that the vermillion gold fields bordered on the river
St.
Francis and that the whole territory was rich
in mineral wealth. It was none of his business
he said to allude to the success of the mission of their delegates to England. Indeed
the
Minister of Militia himself has said all that
need be said on the question, (laughter), but
he (Mr. Mackenzie) would state with pleasure
that the documents in which these hon. gentlemen replied to the Company's pretensions
were
masterly productions. (Hear, hear.) One very
noticeable omission had been made by the
Minister of Militia in speaking on this theme.
In his review of the history of this question
for the past ten or twelve years, he (Mr. Mackenzie) did expect to have heard some
allusion
to the services of the Hon. George Brown. He
(Mr. Mackenzie) could not let the occasion
pass without alluding to this old political
friend, Mr. Brown, as one who had labored
zealously and effectively to advance the open-
up of this territory. (Hear, hear.) The hon.
gentleman went on to express his regret that
the Government had not announced any
scheme of Government for this North West,
but left it to the last moment. (Cheers.) However, even as it was he was disposed
to sustain the arguments rather than protract the
negotiations interminably.
Hon. Mr. Galt desired to say a few words on
the motion before the chair. When the extent
of the territory was considered, its population
and the vast influence it must exercise on our
future, the bargain was in reality a good one.
Ten times the habitable part of Canada only
represented a portion of that land. The fertile
belt and its resources were as great as its area
was extensive. The whole question of its
boundary was a very doubtful one, and it was
very important that all questions of territorial
rights should be set at rest: but he would add
that the Imperial Government ought to have
extinguished the Hudson's Bay Company
claim, and borne so much of the preliminary
expense attendant on its settlement and organization. But they had not chosen to do
so, and
we were to close up this matter at once. This
cession of territory opens up a new field of
duty to us. We have to open up communications with the territory, organize a government,
establish law and order, and extinguish
Indian titles. To provide for all this, unquestionably we must prepare ourselves for
additional taxation, or else the Ministry, as we
hinted at, must come with a larger, broader
measure for opening up communication with
493
that country and developing it. This latter was
unquestionably the best course to his mind;
and to his mind such burdens were a fair
charge on posterity, and should not be met
by direct taxation. As to railway connection,
he could not see why that by way of St. Paul
should not be used in preference to constructing a very costly and roundabout line
through
our own country. He could not see any more
objection to our people using such a route,
than to their coming into Canada, via
Portland.
Mr. Grant: I am sure we only express the
unanimous feeling of this House, when I say
that we have listened with very great interest
to the present debate. The hon. gentlemen
who have entered so lively into this discussion, are veterans in such matters, and
as a
junior member I would claim the indulgence
of this House, while taking part in the debate.
After the able and well-timed articles on the
subject of the "Northwest Territory," which
have eliminated from the various Dominion
journals of all shades of politics, it is not my
intention to occupy the valuable time of this
House by any lengthened remarks. As the
subject is by far the most important which
has turned up for consideration for many
years past, I feel it a duty to my constituents
to offer a few observations. Step by step since
the first inauguration of the principles of
Confederation, we have thus far, through considerable trials and difficulties, been
enabled
to trace the progress of Union on this British
North American continent. The historic details
of this Northwest Territory, so long in
questio
vexata from the charter of Charles II
to the present time, including the various
treaties of St. Germain, Ryswick, Utrecht,
and treaty of Paris, the whole subject of
transference and boundary has been so well
and ably defined by our delegates, Sir George
E. Cartier and Hon. Wm. McDougall. No point
of interest appears to have escaped their close
scrutiny and searching enquiry. As the result
of their labours, we are in possession of the
terms of Lord Granville, concerning this territory, and now the grave and all important
question arises for discussion—Are we to
accept his terms? As in all ordinary matters
of sale, we naturally are led to enquire into
the conditions of the bargain, so with this
large estate, and prior to forming a correct
estimate, several particulars must of necessity
occupy the consideration of every person interested in the future of British North
America. The enquiries which crop out
seriatim,
494 COMMONS
DEBATES May 28, 1869
are as to the physical character of this
country; its resources; climate; agricultural
and commercial advantages. In spite of the
disparaging accounts of Mr. Ellice and others,
and the unfavourable impression so industriously disseminated by the agents of the
Hudson Bay Company, as to the territory
being sterile, ice bound, unfit for colonization,
and the support of human beings, we must
acknowledge, however, from overwhelming
authority, that the North West Territory is a
grand estate, larger than most kingdoms, the
very cream of which is larger than England
and Wales together, and as nature in her
march from east to west showered her
treasures on the land of the United States,
until she reached the Mississippi, so there she
turned aside to favour British territory in a
direction northward. As in the West, so in the
North West, the country, in short terms, is a
beautiful combination of rich prairies and
woods of rolling hills and undulating valleys,
of meadows, lakes and streams. The slow
progress of this country as to settlement
has led to most erroneous impressions in this
respect. This is self-evident in tracing the
process of colonization from its first inception
under Lord Selkirk, in 1812, to the present
time. Grand centres for fur trading occupied
the entire attention, to the detriment of agriculture and outside commerce. As time
rolled
on this primitive settlement increased in importance, and necessity rendered an outlet
by
land indispensable. American enterprise, ever
on the alert, forwarded speedily a pioneer
emigration northwards into Minnesota, to St.
Paul, at the head of the Mississippi, from
which point a road was formed to Fort Garry,
over which the great portion of both the import and export trade is obliged to pass
at
even the present time. Not many years ago a
trade was carried on with Montreal for the
supply of the various articles of life, but even
this soon subsided on the opening up of St.
Paul; however, more recently, it is satisfactory to know, it is again being revived.
The
present population of the colony is about
15,000 or 20,000, and its trade is increasing
each year, amounting in 1867 to about
$2,000,000. However, even this trade is tending
at present more towards the United States
than Canada. As certain evidence of this fact
the importation of British manufactured
goods, which in 1860 amounted to £79,937,
decreased in 1864 (with increased growth of
the settlement) to £65,081, while the imports
of the same in Canada had increased in the
same period from £2,137,827 to £3,065,254. A
trade so important to this country at present,
for many reasons, should be worth the effort
to be obtained. Even at present our American
495
neighbours lose no opportunity of securing a
trade which they no doubt hope may, in
course of time, strengthen their position on
the confines of the fertile plains of this North
west country. Those who have visited the
valleys of Red River and the Saskatchewan,
(known as the Winnipeg Basin) state that
there is a country, lying between Canada and
the Rocky Mountains, (400,000 square miles in
all) well suited for agricultural purposes, and
more than sufficient to support the entire
population of the American Union, if cultivated in accordance with agricultural principles
of the present day. From geological
descriptions the soil is described as generally
composed of soft materials, overlaid with a
rich vegetable mould, varying from a few
inches to several feet in thickness, and resembling very much in structure and quality
the south of England, from Devonshire to
Sussex and Kent. Where the country is not
available for agricultural purposes it abounds
in mineral wealth, such as iron, copper, gold
and coal, &c. Professor Hind, who, by order
of the Government, in 1858, explored and
surveyed a great portion of this country,
states that the fertile belt of the Saskatchewan contains 32,000,000 acres of the
richest
soil. Capt. Palliser, Dr. Hector, M. Bourgeau
and various other scientific explorers, have
described this country as being partially
wooded, abounding in lakes and rich natural
pasturage lands, and in many parts rivalling
the finest park scenery of England; and Dr.
King in 1857 when asked his opinion before
the House of Commons in England, stated that
near Cumberland House the growth of wheat
was quite successful, so also potatoes and
barley, and as for pigs, cows and horses it
was sufficient to say that they flourished. Of
the latter the able description given by the
hon. member for Algoma is in itself ample
evidence as to the productiveness of the
plains. As to the growth of wild hay Mr.
James W. Taylor, of St. Paul, Minnesota,
appointed by the United States Government
in 1861 to report on the commercial relations
between the United States and the Districts
of Central British America, extending from
Canada to the Rocky Mountains, affords much
valuable information as to the fertility and
productiveness of this country. Referring to
the country within the above limits, he estimates that there is an inhabitated area
of
300,000 square miles, an area that would constitute "12 States of the size of Ohio."
Having
carefully examined the reports of the various
districts comprising this area much valuable
information is obtained as to soil, productiveness, geological formation and climate.
Vancouver's Island is shown to have in a measure
496
COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
the climate of Ireland, while the Southern
districts of British Columbia are not unlike
England. The north shore of Lake Huron has
the mean summer heat of Bordeaux in Southern France and Cumberland house on the
Saskatchewan exceeds in this respect Brussels
or Paris, while the prairies south of 55° have
much milder winters than the more eastern
districts. From well ascertained facts Mr.
Taylor states that potatoes and the hardier
garden vegetables, oats, rye, and barley can
be profitably cultivated as far north as 54°
in the Saskatchewan district, that wheat and
various kinds of fruit are safe as far as 52°
and maize to latitude 50°. There is but one
opinion expressed by all explorers—British
and American—as to the general productiveness of the soil. The Red River Valley is
by
far the oldest part of the Winnipeg basin and
its annual mean temperature is 34°—that
of Montreal being 42°. The summer mean is
68°, and exceeds that of Toronto which is
only 64°, in fact it exceeds even that of
Northern Illinois, Western Wisconsin, and
Western Ontario, and on that account, affords
an ample supply of summer heat to ripen the
various cereals.
| Red River produces |
40 bs. |
of wheat to the acre. |
| Minnesota, " |
20 " |
" " |
| Wisconsin, " |
15 " |
" " |
| Pennsylvania, " |
15 " |
" " |
| Massachusetts, " |
16 " |
" " |
In Red River barley is a favourable alternate
of wheat, and gives excellent returns—the
average weight of each bushel being from 48
to 55 pounds. Oats and potatoes also thrive
admirably, and Taylor gives his firm expression to the idea, "that in none of the
prairie
districts of North America are the native
grasses so abundant and nutritious as in these
northern valleys." Doubtless there are occasional periodical inundations in that region
of
country where the Saskatchewan joins the
lakes; however, this applies only to a limited
extent of country, which, like the plains
of Egypt on either side of the Nile will
become centres of increased fertility. According to Mr. Russell's report, the extent
of
cultivated land stretches over an area two
and a half times as large as France, which
supports 40,000,000 of people, and the cost to
Canada at £300,000, which would amount to
something less than half a cent per acre. The
fertility of the Western States is proverbial
——and of these Minnesota is the youngest and
farthest north, and has made the most rapid
strides. So great has been the prosperity
and growth of this State, that although it
was only organized into a territory just 20
497
years ago with
between four and five
thousand inhabitants, it was admitted as a
State ten years ago, with a population of
more than 200,000 inhabitants. During the
late war, from this State alone, 15,000 soldiers
went into the field, and paying besides a war
tax, which, in 1864, amounted to upwards of
$38,000,000, and the value of land has risen
frmo $1 an acre to nearly $6 on an average.
All this prosperity has taken place on the
very borders of the Hudson's Bay Territory.
North of the boundary line, from Canada to
British Columbia, is a continuation of the
glorious country which is the pride of Minnesota, and under a stable form of government
there is no reason why the same degree of
prosperity, or even more, may not be developed in the landed country of the Northwest.
Mr. Dawson says the climate of Red River will
compare generally with that of Kingston, Ont.
In 1858 the ice moved in Red River on the
3lst March, and ploughing was commenced on
the 9th of April. Average depth of snow on
prairies is 12 inches, and in the woods 16
inches. The buffalo are said to winter in the
upper Athabasca as safely as at St. Paul's,
Minnesota, and the spring opens at nearly the
same time, along the immense line of plains,
from St. Paul to the Mackenzie river.
THE COST OF TRANSPORT
The expense of conveying a ton of goods
to Red River at present, via Fort William, or
St. Paul, is from $90 to $100. By a moderate
outlay, Mr. Dawson has estimated that this
cost can be easily reduced to $40 per ton,
and the time to one quarter of that consumed
at present. From Red River settlement eastward, there is a navigable water channel
to
the foot of the Rocky Mountains; while the
natural surface of the prairies for hundreds of
miles permits the easy passage of waggons,
even without artificial road making. It appears
to me that the formal acquisition of this
Northwest Territory is the great question of
the day with the Dominion, and when we become possessors of it in order that this
coun500 COMMONS
DEBATES May 28, 1869 try should flourish, it must offer a fairer field
for the emigrants than the one of older date
alongside. With this territory under our control, we will be enabled to offer greater
inducements to the emigrant than at any previous time in the history of the country.
In
taking possession of this vast estate, a broad
and a liberal policy is requisite. The distance
of the fertile belt of this rich country from
Canada, proper renders it somewhat difficult
of access and at whatever period we desire
to open up and colonize the country, rapid
means of communication must, as a necessary
consequence, be obtained. If this vast territory
is worth purchasing, it is also worth having
a communication with—and that without loss
of time. Money invested so as to yield an
adequate return, must have a solid project
to back up the expenditures. Our American
neighbours have just completed the Pacific
Railroad, in itself the great marvel of the age
—next to the Atlantic telegraph. The enterprise is truly characteristic of the time.
It
was a question of sublime audacity whoever
thought it possible to lay down thousands of
miles of track, climbing mountains 8,000 feet
high, leaping gorges, and causing the Atlantic
and Pacific shores to join in an iron bond of
Union. Whoever first conceived the idea ranks
with a Watt, a Stevenson, and a Brunel. In
1850 there only 9,000 miles of road in that
country, and at present there are 60,000 miles.
Men are not now content with the old way
of accomplishing things. The Pacific Railroad
is a specimen of the new and bolder system
that now prevails. Man's intellectual power
is gaining increased strength, so as to correspond with the magnitude of modern improvements.
When the Italian masters flourished, literature had its periods of dazzling
brightness, such as the Elizabethian age. Today is the period of grand conception
and
enterprises; and we Dominionists should feel
proud of this age in which we live. The protracted life of ancient times did not enable
man to know even as much as is now accomplished in a limited life time. To turn, however,
to our own soil, we here in Ottawa,
are geographically and politically in the very
heart of the world, equidistant from Europe
on the one side, and Asia on the other; and
the reasons why we should, and must, in the
course of time, have a Pacific road of our
own, are self-evident. It is all very well to
theorise upon the point; but the fact is we
cannot afford to have our right flank enveloped by the extending lines of the neighbouring
country. If we can do like the
Americans, in the construction of the Pacific
railway, utilize our domain, the time is not
far distant when we may have a Canadian
501
or Dominion railway, otherwise the great
trade results of the Far West will flow south
of Lake Michigan to the Atlantic. A railway from Montreal, passing through the valley
of the Ottawa—the route which nature
has marked out, and north of Lake Huron,
to Vancouver—would give us a Canadian Atlantic seaport, hundreds of miles nearer the
Pacific, with easier grades and numerous
other advantages over any route the Americans can adopt. Some time may, doubtless,
elapse prior to the construction of so stupendous a work, but I am satisfied that
the Government of this country will adopt a liberal
and an enlightened policy in the acquisition
of the North West Territory, so that it may
not burden the people of the Dominion too
heavily with taxation, and in order to accomplish such, the railway and the territory
co-operatively can alone contribute to the
future strength, wealth, and prosperity of the
Dominion.
Hon. Mr. Connell addressed the House at
considerable length. The question before them
was undoubtedly one of the very greatest importance to the Dominion. It was a question
not merely of accession of territory, but one
which must for weal or woe affect the destinies of the Dominion for all time to come
(hear, hear). During the last session he had objected to the course pursued by the
Government in this matter, on somewhat similar
grounds to those more recently alluded to by
the hon. member for Sherbrooke,——that this
territory should be purchased by the Imperial,
and not the Dominion authorities,—if purchased at all. And he had also objected, because
the people of New Brunswick did not understand, at Confederation, that any such purchase
was needed. Not merely in New
Brunswick, but in Nova Scotia the people
were led to believe by the public men
of Canada that this territory belonged to
Canada; and, speaking as a representative from New Brunswick, he was well
aware that the action of the Ministry in bringing down a measure authorizing them
to purchase this territory, was altogether unexpected
by the people of his Province. He had carefully
looked over the records connected with this
Hudson Bay Territory, and had long ago come
to the conclusion that the company had rights
to a portion of that territory—the northern
or fur-bearing section; but that the other por
502 COMMONS
DEBATES May 28, 1869 tion, the fertile belt, belonged to Canada,
(hear, hear). Hon. gentlemen would see that in
sanctioning the resolutions before the House
they assumed a great deal of responsibility.
But they had now virtually assumed that
responsibility, and must see to it that they
made their position a good one. He could easily
see that in passing these resolutions we might,
in some respects, be only doing that which
would prove a benefit to the United States.
Once we had acquired the Northwest, unless
we took proper steps to open it up, and organize it, we would, as he had said, benefit
our
neighbours across the line, and not ourselves.
But he sincerely hoped another course of
action would be taken. It certainly behooved
us to be very careful, now that we were assuming responsibilities of the greatest
magnitude. We had passed the Intercolonial Rail-
Way Loan—had voted $50,000 annually to the
Governor-General—and there was undoubtedly some ground for apprehending that if we
continued on as we had been doing for the
past two years, we would inevitably find ourselves in the condition recently alluded
to by
the Minister of Militia, of having to resort to
direct taxation in order to meet our engagements (hear, hear). That was an evil which
threatened us in the future, and from which
he saw but one way of escape, and that was
by assisting, as far as practicable, in promoting public works for the benefit of
the
Dominion (hear, hear). If this Dominion is
ever to be prosperous, beyond all question we
must bring our energies to bear in organising
a system of public improvements. With a well-
planned system, such as this, we can hope to
draw amongst us, and provide for, thousands
of the over-crowded populations of Europe.
But without it, we can do nothing. We have
fertile lands almost boundless in extent, but
unless we can promote their settlement, they
are worse than useless to us. What he wanted
to impress on the House was this. We are now
about to acquire a vast domain in the Northwest, and we must at once take measures
to
open it up. Let there be communication by a
railway or some other means, but let the matter be set about promptly. The interests
of the
people of New Brunswick were not so immediately bound up with the acquisition and
development of this territory, as were those of
the people in the west. But he felt that if this
Dominion was ever to be anything, it must be
by acting as a united people, who sought earnestly the development, not of a section
merely, but of the whole country (cheers). And in
this particular instance they had a very heavy
stake in following out the course he alluded
to. If this North West Territory were only
503
half as rich as it was described to be, not
merely by the Hon. the Minister of Militia
and Minister of Public Works and others,
but by almost every writer who had described it, the Dominion had, indeed, made
a most advantageous bargain. But, as he
had said, to make the bargain valuable, immediate steps must be taken to secure the
opening up of that region. Another point
of considerable importance had reference to
the treatment of the Indians in this territory. If their title were not fairly extinguished,
and efficient steps taken to secure
the peace of that section, it was to be feared
that with the advance of civilization there
would be a repetition of those horrible scenes
of rapine and butchery which had marked
frontier life in the Western States. Now, this
must by all means be avoided. Not only must
the country be settled, but the settlers must be
protected at the public expense in some way or
other (cheers). To show that he had long held
these views, the hon. gentleman quoted from
some of his speeches in 1865, at the time of
the first Confederation campaign. The country
he represented was one of the first which carried a vote in favour of Confederation.
He
thought it an honour they had taken that
stand; and he knew they would be gratified
to learn that he had in no respect altered his
opinions regarding that great change. Addressing his constituents in February, 1865,
he said:
"The Hudson's Bay Territory, with 2,260,000 square miles, will also at some not far
distant day, be comprised in the Confederacy.
Extensive settlements now existing on the
Red River, the fields of British Columbia, and
the rich deposits of Vancouver's Island, all
these extensive territories may, and doubtless
will, in process of time, find themselves
forming links in this great chain, which is to
bind the now existing colonies together, not
only with the benefit of each individual part
in view, but also the great benefit of all connectedly, as a grand object, and the
formation
of a closer connection with the Mother Country; the firm establishment of British
dominion being worth large sacrifices to obtain.
Few countries are richer in mineral resources
than that which is contained within the
bounds of the proposed Confederacy. We have
minerals exhaustless in quantity, only requiring capital and labour to develope them.
With
the well known enterprise of the people of
these colonies, we may fairly hope we are on
the way to prosperity and wealth (hear,
hear)."
These were his opinions at that period, and
from them he had not deviated. That constituency had stood by him and elected him
504 COMMONS
DEBATES May 28, 1869
for the last 20 years, and he had never during
all that period deceived them. He had always, and consistently, sought to advance
not
merely the interests of his constituents, but
of the Empire at large. Further to show that
in taking his present stand he was acting
consistently, he would quote an extract from
the proceedings of the Quebec Conference,
which laid the foundation of the Act under
which we are governed. One of the articles
in the scheme stated: "The communication
with the North West Territory, and the improvements required for the development of
the trade of the Great West with the seaboard,
are regarded by this Conference as subjects
of the highest importance to the Federated
Provinces, and shall be prosecuted at the
earliest possible period that the state of the
finances will permit." Now, he was not going
to shirk the responsibility of that declaration.
As a member of the New Brunswick Legislature and Government, he had aided in carrying
out Confederation, and he would not
now seek to undo what he had done, and what
had received the hearty approval of his constituents. There were, he knew, drawbacks
to
this Confederation scheme; but these had
been owing not so much to that scheme itself
as to a lack of proper administration on the
part of the Government, and their adoption
of a policy at once unsound and opposed to
the wishes and interests of the Maritime
Provinces. With the experience since gained
by the Dominion Government, the errors of
the past would, he hoped, not be repeated
(cheers.) The hon. gentleman having again
pressed on the Government the danger which
would result from delay in opening up the
North West Territory—and having urged that
their magnificient purchase should not be rendered valueless by an inefficient, tardy
means
of communication—went on to allude to the
speedy development of new territories in the
Union by the use of British capital. With
British gold the people of the States were
every day opening up fresh channels of trade,
building railroads and canals, and in every
way developing their resources. Could we not
do so? Our resources were great enough, and
enterprises, as profitable as any in the States,
could be found on this side (cheers). The hon.
gentleman concluded by expressing his doubts
as to the wisdom of allowing the Hudson
Bay Company such a large reservation of
land. It was, he thought, quite enough for
the Dominion to open up this new country,
and govern it, without to pay besides a large
amount of money, and give a large reservation. But, sooner than agree to this land
reservation at all events, he thought that it
might have been bettter to get rid of their
505
claims altogether by a money payment. The
scheme had, however, been arranged, and, as
he believed it would not be wise now to reopen it, he would support the resolutions
(cheers).
Mr. A. P. McDonald approved of the resolutions; but differed from the Minister of Public
Works as to the best mode of opening up communication with the territory. The great
difficulty with regard to it was the want of
access to it. We had to take a jump of 400
miles before we reached the edge of it. The
proposed mixed route he did not think was
either feasible or practicable. Would an emigrant be induced to go 1,200 miles by
a mixed
route to reach the Red River, when at Cleveland or Detroit he could meet railway communication
to take him into the Western
States. He maintained that the only way by
which we could make that Territory available,
was by building a railway, giving grants of
land to aid its construction. He ventured to
say that with a mixed route, 10,000 emigrants
would not be induced to go into that Country.
Without a railroad, the North West Territory
would be a mill-stone round the neck of this
Dominion. The million and a half now asked
for would not pay for the Territory. The
200,000 Indians found there, would claim as
much for their rights as the Hudson's Bay
Company. He went on to contend that a railroad would pay for its own construction,
and
was the only feasible means of filling up the
country with an industrious population. The
acquisition of the North West had been a
leading plank in the platform of the Government party. Now that they had got it, he
hoped they would find the benefit of it, and
that they would not discover they had got an
elephant and a white one at that.
506
COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869
Mr. Chipman considered if they had 200,000
Indians to manage when they went to survey
the country and cut it up into blocks for settlement, they would have a good deal
of
trouble with them. He was afraid this whole
scheme was to involve a great deal of increased expenditure and increased taxation.
First they had to pay £300,000 to the Hudson's
Bay Company, besides the land they reserved.
Then they had railways and telegraphs to
build, and a long frontier to defend and after
all they had 800 miles to travel before they
reached an acre of land that was worth a cent.
However, if they were to make a fortune by
this territory, he thought they could afford to let Nova Scotia go. (Laughter.)
Mr. Le Vesconte moved in amendment.
"That in the opinion of this House it is inexpedient to acquire a territory likely
to involve this Dominion in a heavy expense
without any prospect of adequate remuneration." In supporting his amendment he referred
to the strong views expressed last session by the President of the Council against
acquiring the North West. He entirely shared
these views, and accordingly moved this
amendment.
Mr. Killam thought the opening up of the
North West was a matter of merely local interest to Ontario, and as that Province
had
been placed in an excellent financial position
by Confederation he considered it should devote some of its surplus funds to paying
this
million and a half to the Hudson's Bay Company.
Hon. Mr. Anglin said he had voted last year
against the North West resolutions. The House,
however, by a large majority had authorized
the Government to proceed with the negotiations, and as he believed the delegates
had
made the best bargain which was possible
under the circumstances, and as he has fully
accepted the situation, and was willing that
Confederation should have a full and fair
trial, he felt it his duty to-night to vote for
the resolutions of the Minister of Militia.
The House divided on the amendment,
which was negatived—Yeas, 15; nays, 121.
Hon. Mr. Holton begged to make a remark
with reference to some allusions to himself,
made by the Minister of Militia. Honourable
gentlemen opposite were so practiced in tergiversation that they seemed to take it
for
507
granted that the gentlemen opposed to them
would be as ready to turn their backs on
themselves, as they in their past career had
shown themselves to be. He (Mr. Holton) had
never learned that art. He had felt himself
constrained, by reason of his own antecedents
in connection with this subject, in common
with every man who had held office in this
country during the last ten years, to stand
by the proposition to acquire this territory.
He had always contended that it was right
to take steps to acquire it although he might
take exception to the terms on which it had
been acquired. If an amendment had been
moved finding fault with any one of the conditions on which the territory was acquired,
he would have voted for it, but he could not,
under any circumstances, vote against the
acquisition of the territory itself. He must,
like the member for Lambton, express his
surprise that the mover and seconder of the
resolutions had made no reference to the agency of the Hon. George Brown in connection
with this whole subject. He remembered very
well when the initiatory step towards the
acquisition of this territory was taken by
that gentleman. If any public man in this
country had the credit of initiating the agitation which had led to this result, it
was
Mr. Brown and he had been all along its
principal promoter. On him would rest principally the responsibility it the measure
eventuated unfortunately for this country,
and to him on the contrary would belong
the largest measure of credit that would
appertain to any public man if it should
turn out, as they all hoped it would, of
the highest advantage to this country. He
regretted that that gentleman was not now
in the House to bear a part in the settlement of this question, but as he was out
of the House he thought his important agency in bringing about what was now to be
accomplished, should be recognized and avowed
in this public manner. (Hear, hear) He regretted with his hon. friend from Lambton
that some reference had not been made to
that hon. gentleman by the mover, and still
more by the seconder of these resolutions, for
they must all know what the relations of that
hon. gentleman had been to Mr. Brown at the
outset and throughout the most of his public
career. He had been the protege and follower
of Mr. Brown, not only in this matter, but in
nearly every other political movement in
which he had been engaged. Under these circumstances it would have come well from
that
hon. gentleman to have uttered some few
words of acknowledgment of the services of
his great leader in connection with this sub
508 COMMONS DEBATES May 28, 1869 ject. (Hear, hear) Mr. Holton then said he
had intended to have referred to the position
of the question tonight as justifying the
course he and Mr. Blake took last session, in
moving an amendment declaring that the address then submitted would not bring about
an acquisition of the territory, but he would
waive doing so on account of the lateness of
the hour and the weariness of the House.
Sir George E. Cartier denied that he was liable to the charge of tergiversation in any part
of his political career. He accused the member for Chateauguay of having, some time
deserted Baldwin and Lafontaine, and declared that he (Sir George E. Cartier) stood
by
the principles of those great men during the
fourteen years that he had been leading the
Lower Canada majority. He denied also that
his colleagues in public had been guilty of
tergiversation. As regarded his not having
mentioned the Hon. Mr. Brown, the member
for Lambton had scarcely done him justice.
When he alluded to the mission to England, in
which Mr. Galt and the Hon. John Rose took
part, it was to show how long the question had
been pending. He had not intended to omit
mention of the name of Mr. Brown or his usefulness with regard to this question. It
was
well known to this Parliament and throughout
the Dominion the important part, Mr. Brown
took with reference to this question in the
proceedings of the delegates to England in
1865, and it was with great pleasure he found
on his recent return from England that when
there were some attempts to prejudice the
public mind with reference to some arrangements, Mr. Brown had stood up for his principles
and defended those arrangements. In
the despatch of June, 1865, which Mr. Brown,
with his delegates, signed and agreed to, it
was stated that after the settlement of the
question it would be necessary to pay a sum of
money that the imperial guarantee should be
obtained, and it was following up the arrangement in that despatch that they now came
before the House asking its sanction to these
resolutions. If any one regretted the absence
of Mr. Brown from this House he (Sir George
Cartier) did, and if he had been here he would
not, because he had mentioned his name in
connection with a previous delegation, having
accused him of wishing to appreciate his usefulness in the settlement of this question.
The House then went into Committee on the
resolution,
Dr. Robitaille in the chair.
Mr. Mackenzie made some observations on
Hon. Mr. McDougall's allusion to the remarks
509
made on his conduct at the Toronto Convention, and denied that any statement was made
to the effect that it would be many years before the North West was acquired.
The resolutions were reported without
amendment, the report to be received tomorrow.
Sir John A. Macdonald said the House
would be asked to concur in the North West
resolutions. He would then proceed with the
Criminal Procedure Bill, the Patents Invention
Bill, and other measures if there was time.
The House adjourned at five minutes to 12,
until 3 o'clock on Saturday.
This individual participated in:
