The House in a Committee of the
Whole agreed to a Bill introduced by Col. Boyd, entitled " An Act to Incorporate the
Digdeguash Lake and Stream Driving Company."
The Committee to whom was referred the following Bills - " A Bill for the protection
of Moose," and " A Bill to amend the law relating to the destruction of Moose," made
the following report.
The Committee have examined the Bills very carefully, and have also examined
the Laws of Canada and Nova Scotia, in regard to the preservation of Moose, and have
given the question their best consideration. This subject is one which is very difficult
in dealing with, and in bringing offenders to justice great difficulties arise, as
the offences are committed in the forest by non-residents, far beyond the means of
obtaining testimony and the reach of judicial tribunals ; the offenders generally
escape before they can be prosecuted ; in this way the Moose are slaughtered by wholesale,
and the offenders escape the punishment they so richly deserve. The Committee are
fully impressed with the fact that unless legislation can be so made as to reach the
offenders, and stop the wholesale slaughter, that within a few years these useful
animals will become extinct. With these facts in view the Committee have prepared
another Bill on this subject, entitled " A Bill for the protection of Moose"; having
very stringent regulations, and which the Committee believe, if strictly enforced,
will protect the Moose, and therefore recommend the Bill to the favorable consideration
of the House. Edward Williston, John Costigan,
} Committee Geo. Otty, W. Needham,
The House then went into a Committee of the Whole to take into consideration the
foregoing Bill entitled-
A BILL FOR THE PROTECTION OF MOOSE.
Mr. Cudlip. - I do not believe the Bill is worth the paper on which it is written
; laws of this kind never did work in any country, and they will not work here.
Mr. Costigan. - I do not agree to all
the provisions of this Bill, for it will prevent the settler from killing any Moose
at all, the winter season being the only time in which he can kill them, while a man
who does not belong to the country can kill them by hundreds, leaving the meat to
be destroyed ; and by so doing be in no danger of incurring a fine at all. In my opinion
we should either introduce a Bill to prevent any person from killing them during the
next four or five years, or a Bill to prevent the traffic and exportation of hides,
the traffic in hides being the chief inducement to parties to kill them.
Mr. Beveridge. - If you allow men
to kill them for nine months a great quantity will be destroyed. Parties can come
from Quebec and the State of Maine to kill the moose and convey their hides through
the woods to those countries. I have known parties who have killed 100 moose this
winter and taken their hides to Canada. They should not be killed at all for several
years, or until they increase and become plentiful. According to this Bill a man is
allowed to kill two. I do not think this will be any protection, for if there is half
a dozen in the family, each one will
have his two moose, perhaps all being
killed by the same person.
Mr. Needham. - I would not oppose a
Bill to prevent their being killed at all, provided the Indians are excepted.
Mr. Williston. - We have examined
the Laws of Upper and Lower Canada, and also the State of Maine, and find that the
Indians are exempt from any Laws relating to the protection of moose. Under these
circumstances the Commmittee thought that to deprive the Indians, - who have no other
means of subsistence except the animals caught in the woods, - of the liberty of killing
these moose would be doing them a great injustice.
Mr. Otty. - The Indians will never kill any more moose than is requisite for
their own subsistence. They have always spoken against the Traders and Frenchmen coming
from Canada and the State of Maine in order to obtain these hides for exportation.
They wish the moose protected for their own use and the natural subsistence of their
families.
Mr. Costigan. - The hon. member for King's has stated that the Indians never
kill more than they can take care of, and don't allow the carcass to lie in the woods
to be destroyed. I know the Indians do kill large quantities and leave their carcasses
to be destroyed in the woods. Within a few miles of the camp where I was working,
two Indians had killed seventy moose. I asked one of them if he did not think it was
wrong to kill those moose and leave the meat to be destroyed. The Indian pointed to
a large pine tree, and said, the white man will come and cut down that tree, take
a certain portion and leave the rest to rot in the woods because it is no use to them
; we do the same as the white man, we take the hides because we can turn them into
money, but the rest we leave to rot on the ground. I would like to go for a Bill to
prohibit killing them at all, others want the Indians excepted. It might be done in
this way. The Bill could prohibit all persons from killing them for three years,
except the Indians, and no traffic allowed in the hides. Then the Indians would have
no inducement to kill more than they wanted for their own use, but if you simply prohibit
killing, and except the Indians, you leave the traffic entirely in their hands.
This Bill was agreed to.
Hon. Mr. Smith said that as the Legislature of Nova Scotia had passed a resolution
to appoint delegates to confer with other delegates from the Maritime Provinces regarding
a commercial or Legislative Union between the Provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick
and Prince Edward's Island, he had prepared a resolution authorizing the Government,
in case the Government of Nova Scotia appoint these delegates, to appoint a delegation
also ; but he thought it was premature to discuss this question, as this delegation
which they proposed to appoint would have no power to bind the House, but should be
appointed as a matter of courtesy to Nova Scotia ; he would therefore give notice
of the following resolution "
Whereas, the Lieut. Governor of this
Province has received from the Lieut. Governor of Nova Scotia copies of resolutions
passed by the Legislative Council, and House of Assembly, of that Province, expressing
a wish to renew the negotiation for a Union of the Maritime Provinces ;
And whereas, it is desirable to ascer- tain whether a Legislative or Commercial
Union of these Provinces, on terms advantageous to all, is practicable ;
Therefore resolved, that a humble address be presented to His Excellency the Lieut.
Governor, requesting him to appoint delegates, not to exceed five, to confer with
a delegation to be appointed by the Governments of Nova Scotia and Prince Edward's
Island, on the subject of such Union.
Mr. Connell. - I do not rise for the purpose of discussing this resolution, for
I am not aware what the opinion of the House is in reference to it, but it is a most
important matter, and they should express an opinion upon it. It is a question that
should be fully discussed, and if we are going to have a Confederation on a small
scale we should understand it, and the Government should be prepared to give some
reasons why a delegation of this kind should be appointed, when a delegation which
was appointed last year reported against the measure. I think the question had better
stand over until this afternoon so that we will have time to consider the matter,
and I shall give my reasons why I am opposed to it.
Hon. Mr. Smith. - I cannot see any use in allowing this matter to stand over.
I think it is due as a matter of courtesy to Nova Scotia that this delegation should
be appointed. My hon. friend knows that when the last delegation met at Charlottetown
their attention was absorbed by the grander union, that this union faded into insignificence,
and they paid no attention to it at all. If this delegation which we propose to appoint
meet and agree upon any union, whether legisltive or commercial, then it would be
submitted to the House, and the country could take time to consider it. Last year
a resolution of this kind was moved by the Provincial Secretary, and we had little
discussion upon it ; now we propose to do the same thing without committing hon. members
upon the question ; but leave it until next session, when it will be for the House
to determine whether to adopt or reject the report of the Committee.
Mr. Lindsay. - The first thing necessary to be done is to ascertain whether the
House desires this union or not ; if it does not, it is unnecessary to appoint this
delegation and put the country to this expense for no purpose, when the finances are
so limited, and they are required for improvements in the country. Although I am in
favor of the union of all the British North American Provinces, yet I am opposed to
this union of the Maritime Provinces, and want to record my vote against it.
Mr. Otty. - The hon. gentleman has misapprehended the question, which is merely
a matter of courtesy to Nova Scotia ; because Nova Scotia has passed a resolution
of this kind, it is a matter of courtesy that we should do so too, and the discussion
of the subject can come up hereafter.
Mr. McClellan. - I suppose there can be no objection if it is a matter of courtesy
; but I should like to see the members of the Government in their places, because
the hon. Provincial Secretary made a remark when passing the suppplies which made
me suppose that no delegation would be required ; but I see those pleasant little
excursions will be provided for the same as usual.
Mr. Cudlip. - I am not prepared to say
88 DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865.
whether I shall vote for or against this
Union when the question comes up ; but
I am glad to see a movement taking place
in this direction, but I think there need
not be much expense attending this delegation, for the distance being
short, the
Nova Scotia delegation may come over to
St. John. The members of the House
can vote for this resolution without being
obliged to vote for any union
the delegation might propose. Some gentlemen say
if they cannot have a large union they
do not want a small one ; but I
think this
small union may be a benefit, while it
might not be desirable to have a union of
all the British possessions in the world.
The appointment of this delegation may
be the means of bringing about a commercial union, which would be a benefit
to these Maritime Provinces.
Col. BOYD —It is very desirable to have
a union of these Maritime Provinces,
either commercial or Legislative. I would
rather see a Legislative Union, because
one Legislature would answer in place of
three. If the gentlemen who were
appointed last year to confer on this subject
had done their duty, we might have been
united now. It is very desirable that we
should have one tariff, one
currency, and
the same postal arrangements in the three
Provinces. After we have this
union, and
it is found to work well, we
might have
Confederation with Canada, if the Canadians would make reasonable propositions ;
but at present we should creep
before we
walk.
Mr. MCMILLAN.—I
think in courtesy
to Nova Scotia, we should not
object to
passing this resolution ; but I do not see
any benefits arising from this small union,
which would not have been much greater
in the larger union. This small union
was abandoned last year, but I do not
think it was abandoned until the delegation was satisfied that it could not be
carried out.
Mr. FRASER.—I
do not think this is a
proper time to discuss this matter, as we
are voting for this resolution as a matter
of courtesy.
Mr. GILBERT.—The
interests of these
Lower Provinces are identified in every
possible way, and this delegation may
lead to some beneficial results. I cannot
see how the Government could well get
clear of co-operating with Nova Scotia in
discussing this matter. I shall support
the resolution.
Mr. HILL—It is said this resolution is
a mere matter of courtesy to Nova Scotia.
I do not see that it is any more so than a
similar resolution which we passed last
year, the result of which certainly went
beyond what we intended when we passed
that resolution. It would be premature
to take sides on this question now, inasmuch as our minds would be liable to
change when we receive further information on the subject. Although I am
somewhat in favor of this resolution, thinking this union will come to pass in a few
years, yet I should like to hear
the arguments for and against it, in order to acquire further information. When
the
Canadian union was first moved, I was
rather in favor of it ; but the
more I
looked into it the more I opposed
it.
'There is no subject which can come before the Legislature this
Session that I
would more gladly listen to than
a union
of these Lower Colonies. Some
such
preliminary discussion should take place,
in order that we may be fully prepared
to discuss the question when it comes up.
Mr. KERR.—I am in favor of this resolution, because by negotiating
with the
Lower Colonies we have already been
benefitted to a considerable extent. I
recollect the time when there was a duty
of two pounds on every horse that was
imported from Prince Edward Island;
but
by an arrangement entered into
the
Governments of the respective
Provinces,
the productions of the different Colonies
are entered at a uniform rate. I imported
a carriage from the United States and paid
17 1/2 per cent. duty in this Province. If I
had taken it to Nova Scotia I would have
had to have paid but 6 per cent., and
could have brought it home from there
just as easily, and thereby escaped the
extra duty. Merchants like to get their
goods into the country at the lowest possible rate, and it is very desirable that
such an arrangement may be made as will
remove all the restrictions upon our trade,
so that the importations into the various
Colonies may be admitted at the
same
rate of duty. The heads of departments
should meet and discuss this matter of a
Legislative or Commercial Union, and the
resolution which they adopt can be fully
discussed in the House next winter.
Mr. CONNELL
moved that this resolution be postponed for three months, and
said :—If this resolution is a mere matter
of courtesy, and no result to be arrived
at, what is the use of appointing a delegation ? It is a matter which can
be very
well undertaken by the
Government, and
it is very right for them to do so, laying
such information as they receive before
the Legislature next winter. It has been
said that we would have been swamped
in uniting with Canada ; but the same
argument will apply to a union of these
Lower Colonies. I should like to have
seen the President of the Council
go into
an elaborate discussion of this matter, as
they have done in Nova Scotia,
not only
in reference to a union of the Lower Colonies,
but also the larger union with Canada. I should like the opinion of the
country to be expressed on this question,
as it might have an influence upon this
delegation. If there is no
movement
made to discuss this question, how is the
country to get information ? No action
should be taken until the country has had
an opportunity to express an opinion upon
the subject. In reference to Confederation, I always expressed my opinion in
the strongest terms, that the
measure
should never be submitted to the House
for its final passage without being first
left to the people.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—We might have a
dissolution of the House upon the question.
Mr. CONNELL—I
should like to see it.
With reference to Confederation it was a
great mistake that the matter had
not
been brought before the Legislature and
discussed, just as I say this
matter
should
be discussed before a delegation is appointed to go to Nova Scotia. If that
had been the case the people
would not
have been misled the way they
have been
on this question of Confederation,
and
would have arrived at a different
result,
for I believe a large majority
of the country are in favor of Confederation. I do
not see any advantage to be
derived from
this connection with Prince Edward
Island, Nova Scotia and Newfoundland,
but think it would be decidedly injurious
so far as Agriculture is
concerned. I
think it would be great injustice to the
people of this Province to have the Seat
of Government removed to Halifax, for it
is there where it would have
to go. I
suppose the President of the Council
thinks it will go to Dorchester, but he may
rest assured that it will not, for we will
have but a small minority in the
House,
and consequently cannot locate the Seat
of Government where we choose.
Dr. THOMPSON.—There
is no basis
upon which to rest a discussion.
If the
delegates agree upon anything before
the
next Session, that will be the
time to discuss it. We will have one Legislature
instead of three if we adopt this Union,
and consequently can reduce our number
of representatives
from each County, or
form electoral districts. There will be an
advantage in uniting the seaboard Provinces where the trade is all of the same
kind, whereas if we united in
Canada we
would have nothing in common, for we
could take nothing to them, and receive
nothing from them except provisions.
This delegation may suggest
something
in regard to trade that will be an advantage, but it will be time enough
to discuss
the subject when their report is brought
before us.
The House decided in favor of the resolution.
On motion of
Hon. Mr. SMITH, the
House went into a Committee of
the whole
to take into consideration
A BILL TO PROVIDE FOR THE PAYMENT OF
DEBENTURES ISSUED UNDER AN ACT
RELATING TO THE SAVINGS' BANK AND
OTHER PROVINCIAL LIABILITIES.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—In 1856 the Legislature passed a law authorizing the Governor
in Council to issue debentures to the
amount of £90,000. In 1862 an Act was
passed enlarging the grant to $500,000,
and the late Government have
issued debentures to that extent ; but £30,000
sterling of those debentures remain in the
hands of the Messrs. Baring in
London ;
the object of which was to meet any call
upon Savings' Bank deposits. The
time of those debentures was limited to ten
years, that time expires next May. The
object of this Bill is to provide for the
issue of debentures to the extent of $500,000, to meet those debentures
when they fall due. In this Bill I have given a discretionary power to the Government,
having put in no limitation as to time ; we
can pay at such, whether in sterling or
currency, as may seem most advantageous
to the public interest.
Mr. KERR. —There are now already
debentures to the extent of £30,000 sterling
in the hands of the Messrs. Barings lying
unsold, which were issued under the Act
providing for the issue of $500,000. Before these new debentures are issued
there should be some provision made to
satisfy the country that these debentures
lying in the Messrs. Baring's hands would
be destroyed, so that the amount would
not be charged against the Province with
the amount authorized to be issued. We
are all aware that the Bank of England
always destroy their notes when received,
and never issue them a second time. In
Nova Scotia also, the Provincial notes are
destroyed in the presence of a Joint Committee of the Legislature. A
section
should be added to this Bill providing for
them to be destroyed, and stating in whose
presence it should be done.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—I do not see any
necessity for an amendment of
that kind,
for these debentures are to be withdrawn
and the Government will see
them destroyed ; if they are withdrawn, it
is just
the same as if, they were never issued, for
they cannot be sold alter they are overdue.
Mr. KERR.—I entirely differ from
my
hon. friend. It may be that after
they
are
due they are not saleable, but they
might be transferred from hand to hand.
DEBATES OF THE HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR 1865. 89
It might happen that these debentures
would not be all taken up when they are
due, and if any of those unsold debentures should fall into the hands of a bona
fide holder, will not this Province feel
bound to pay them. I think it is necessary for this Province that as many of
these debentures should be issued here
as possible, so that the interest can be
saved in the country, which at present
is a great drain upon our resources.
Mr. CONNELL.—I have no objection to
this Bill further than this, that some provision should be made to prove that
those bonds had been destroyed, and
some record kept here specifying those
bonds that have been taken up. I
understand by the Bill that the whole
amount of debentures to the extent of
$500,000 can be issued if the
Government think proper.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—It
is the intention
of the Government to leave $30,000
in
the hands of the Messrs. Baring,
to provide for any run which may be made
upon the Savings' Bank deposit. There
is some weight in the objection taken in
regard to having those bonds destroyed,
and there should be some provision made
for it.
Mr. KERR moved the following additional section to the Bill which was
carried :
" The debentures issued under the
said security acts, and remaining unsold,
shall be cancelled or destroyed before
any debentures shall be issued beyond
the amounts now actually in the hands
of purchasers ; evidence of such
cancelling or destroying to be made appear
to the satisfaction of the
Governor in
Council."
The Bill was then agreed to as
amended.
Hon. Mr. SMITH moved the House into Committee to take into Consideration
AFTERNOON SESSION.
Messrs.
LEWIS,
A. C. DESBRISAY,
YOUNG, and
CORAM, requested to have
their names recorded on the journals as
voting in favor of the
resolution for the
appointment of delegates to confer with
other delegates on the subject of the
Union of the Maritime Provinces.
Mr. NEEDHAM.—I
certainly
think that
when that resolution came up members
necessarily absent on business in
the
Committee Room should have been called, for it is a subject of the greatest importance,
and more particularly affects
the County of York than any other County in the Province. I am decidedly
opposed to it, for I do not think any such
union can be effected that will be a benefit to New Brunswick ; on the contrary
it would materially injure the Province.
With regard to a commercial union or
the adoption of a uniform tariff, and
postal
rates, I have no objection ; if we
can assimilate our tariff, postal arrangements and currency, it will, no doubt
be a benefit to the colonies, but I never will consent to a legislative
union,
which is part and parcel of this resolution, which certainly commits the
members of this House ; for if this
delegation
agrees to a Legislative union, how can
any member get up and oppose it
after
having voted for this resolution. Now,
as a matter of courtesy, when a proposition is made by one Province to another,
I am willing to extend all the courtesy
I can, consistent with my duty, but I am
not willing to have a delegation go
there
and determine whether we shall have a
legislative or commercial union, for
those who vote for it will be bound by
it. I believe that a legislative union
would be more destructive to this Province than that grand Confederation
scheme, and if we must choose between
two evils we had better choose the least.
If I had to choose between a
Legislative
Union of the Lower Colonies, or this
grand Confederation scheme which
I do
not believe in, I would say, give me the
Confederation scheme ten to one. This
Union of the Lower Colonies would
dwindle us down into absolute insignificance; it would deprive us of our seat
of Government, and render the whole
Province less than a municipality. I
confess I feel strongly on this subject,
and do not wish to be misunderstood.
I want to record my vote against it, but
I do not want to record a silent vote.
We do not know what this delegation
may do, when they get there, but I do
not feel disposed to give them
the power
to legislate for a Legislative Union.
Some persons might say because I was
away from my seat that I shirked the
question. Perhaps I may be rather too
bold, but I never shirk. I am prepared
to speak, vote and act as I think,
whether it is right or wrong,
and then I
am responsible for what I do. If the
word Legislative Union had not
been
there I would have voted for the resolution, for we ought to have a delegation
to consider a Commercial Union ; but I
would not give them any power to discuss whether we should have a Legislative Union
or not. If those power were
contained in the resolution I trust the
House will allow me to record my vote
against it. I feel that I am bound by
every principle of honor and integrity
to carry out the principle which I was
sent to this House to sustain, as I believe my constituents, men, women and
children, would rise up and condemn
me, were I to assent to a proposition
which I have so often attempted to show
would be to the detriment and injury
of the Province.
Mr. WETMORE.—I wish my name
recorded in favor of this delegation,
and if they come to the conclusion that
a Legislative Union is necessary, I have
not the slightest hesitation in saying I
shall go cheerfully for it. My impression is rather in favor for it ; but, however,
it is better to have the matter discussed by the delegation, and let them
recommend what they consider the best
for the country.
Hon. Mr. SMITH.—One of the members for York (Mr. Fraser) was present
when this discussion came up, and he
expressed himself favorable to a Commercial Union, but I was to be taken
upon the subject at all.
The House in Committee agreed to
" A Bill to amend an Act to provide for
the erection of an Alms House Work
House, and to establish a Public Infirmary in and for the City and County of
St. John."
Also, " An Act to explain certain sections in a Bill relating to Sewerage."
Also, " A Bill relating to marriage."
Also, " A Bill to establish
a Police force in the Town of Chatham."
Also, " A Bill to amend an Act to Incorporate the Trustees of the St. John
Church in Chatham, in connection with
the Presbyterian Church of Nova Scotia.
House adjourned to meet
to-morrow,
at. 9, A. M. T. P. D.
This individual participated in:
