[...] and Misdemeanors in the Province of Ontario. The honourable gentleman said that
he
understood the members from the Province of
Quebec desired to have the provisions of this
Bill extended to them, and for his part he
had, of course, no objection, but would like
to see the provisions of the measure extended
to all the Provinces.
The Committee rose and reported the Bill,
which was subsequently read a third time
and passed as amended.
SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES
Hon. Mr. Holton asked if the hon. gentleman proposed to consider the Supplementary
Estimates to-night.
Hon. Mr. Holton said he was glad to hear
the announcement made by the Finance Minister a little while ago that he would ask
the
House to acquiesce in the reduction. He had
been about to ask not what action the Government intended to take in consequence of
this defeat (hear and laughter,) but what
action they proposed taking in respect to this
item of salaries. (Hear.) With regard to the
Supplementary Estimates which had just been
placed in the hands of members they were,
he observed, in two sets, the first having
reference to the services for the current year
which would expire in about twelve days.
870
COMMONS DEBATES June 18, 1869
He would call attention to the fact that for
the services of the current year votes aggregating $250,000 additional were to be
asked
for, while the Supplementary Estimates for
next year amounted to $5,465,675. It was fair,
however, to reduce this by the amount which
the House had already to pay for acquiring
the possessionary rights of the Hudson's Bay
Company, $1,460,000. This would reduce the
amount we had to vote for next year to about
$4,000,000, a large amount of money even
to us, who were accustomed to dealing with
large figures under our new economy. There
was one rather startling amount, that of
$1,460,000 for opening up communication with
the North-West Territory, establishing its
Government, and providing for its settlement.
Before considering this appropriation the
House ought to be placed in a position to
consider the whole question of opening up
communication with and governing the Territory. He did not say that the amount asked
was excessive; but he maintained that the
House ought not to be called on to vote so
large a sum until the Government declared
what policy was to be pursued in regard to
these Territories; whether it was to be a bold
and comprehensive policy, looking to the early
settlement of the country, or whether we were
in this respect to die as it were of depletion;
whether we were to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in this question annually
with
no policy, and as usually happened in such
cases, without accomplishing any definite result, or whether we were to pursue such
a
settled wise policy as must advance our
interest in that quarter.
Hon. Mr. Rose said he would offer a few
explanations in regard to the first set of supplementary estimates, those which were
additional for the current year, amounting in
the aggregate to $380,000. It was but right
the House should understand that this was
not an additional sum over and above that
which had been stated before as the expenditure for the year. They were brought in
as supplementary estimates made in accordance with the rule laid down by the Government
of submitting every shilling of
expenditure to the approbation of the House.
A large portion of those estimates had already
been laid before the House in the shape of
unprovided items, with the particulars of
which the House was already in possession;
and we now bring them down in this shape
in order to comply technically with the rule
871
requiring a formal vote of the House for every
expenditure. The first item in the Estimates
for the current year, which was new, was
$3,000 for the Administration of Justice. It
was asked lest the Department might find
itself short before the 30th of June next. The
next item, $20,000 additional for the maintenance of the Penitentiary at Kingston,
was a
new vote, occasioned by a variety of circumstances already explained. The next two
items, for the Rockwood Asylum and the New
Brunswick Penitentiary, were included in the
expenditure already laid before the House.
Some of the items connected with the maintenance of the St. John Penitentiary were
chargeable against New Brunswick, and the
amount expended for the maintenance of the
local prisoners was properly chargeable
against the Administration of Justice; but
the Dominion required to advance money to
meet these amounts, and the Government
considered that even though these sums were
to be charged to New Brunswick, that still
a specific vote should be asked for their
expenditure from the Dominion. The next
item was $3,590. In the detailed estimates
that amount had been omitted altogether,
partly in consequence of the representations
of the member for Lunenburg. Last year we
reduced the expenditure, but we had not
been able to dispense altogether with some
of the officers. The next item, for Emigration and Quarantine, was occasioned by additional
efiorts made in Europe to induce
emigration, a gentleman having been specially sent there, and other steps having been
taken. The four items under the next head,
Public Works, have been included in the returns already before the House in the nine
months' expenditure. The $98,000 for the
Intercolonial Railway was already in hand.
The items for the repair of the steamer
Druid
was as now, and also that following for
Lighthouse and Coast service. Under the
head Civil Government, there was $3,700 to
provide for the salaries of certain Deputy-
heads and the Secretary of the Treasury
Board, part of whose salaries had hitherto
been charged to separate services, and in
lieu of such separate payments the House
was aware that the salaries of Messrs. Trudeau, Griffin, Bouchette and Langton had
been
made up in separate ways, partly out of
Customs, Excise and Stamps; partly out of
inspection of railways and partly out of the
Civil Service Board, in addition to their normal salaries. The sum now mentioned was
in
full of all their services. The next item, Collection of Revenue from Public Works,
was at
the disposal of the Commissioner in 1868, but
was paid in the course of the current year.
872 COMMONS DEBATES
June 18, 1869
The next item, $15,000 for the Post Office,
was occasioned by the contract entered into
for the Halifax service, not included in the
vote of last year, and was also owing to the
plan adopted with reference to the Great
Western Railroad since arranging for the
payment of their debt. The next four items
were the balance of the appropriation of 1867-
68. Last year, the House would remember,
there was considerable doubt as to whether
the whole of the sum voted would be needed
for the year. The rigid rule required that
all money voted for a certain year should
lapse on the expiry of that year, and that it
should not be available for service next
year. It was found impossible to give the
charge for the payment of services rendered
previous to June 30th last, and therefore these
services had to be provided for in the meantime. It was done by Order in Council.
In the
same sense this was an infringement of the
rule; but it was an unavoidable infringement
of the Audit Act. This vote was merely to get
the approbation of the House to the appropriation of a year ago being carried forward
a
few days beyond the year for which it was
voted to summarise. He might mention that
the new votes amounted to $250,000, but there
had been already paid $167,000, leaving the
new vote in reality $83,000.
Hon. Mr. Holton—Do I understand that the
aggregate amount of the expenditure for the
year, as asserted in the Budget speech, is
only exceeded by $83,000?
Hon. Mr. Rose—No; we have $250,000. And
here he would with pleasure take the opportunity of informing the House that the increase
from the customs for May was $300,000 in excess of the previous year, and 10 per
cent in excess of what he had estimated.
Hon. Mr. Wood—In what portion of the
Dominion did the excess chiefly arise?
Hon. Mr. Rose said he could not give the
exact proportion. His impression was that
whereas the falling off last year was greater
in Nova Scotia, the proportionate increase this
year was also greater. The great bulk of
the increase was, no doubt, at Montreal, Toronto and Halifax. Coming to the supplementary
estimates for June, 1870, amounting to
over $5,000,000, the honourable gentleman
would notice that half of the amount was for
873
the Intercolonial expenditure. Of the balance,
$2,800,000 was for the Northwest Territory.
He quite agreed with the honourable member
for Chateauguay, that the Government ought,
at as early a day as possible, to endeavour to
define their policy as to that Territory and
the communication therewith. His impression
was that it ought to be done in a large and
comprehensive way; but there must first be
exploration. We must know all about the country beyond the Laurentian range, north
of
Nipissing, in order to ascertain whether our
communication would be in the direction or
from the head of Lake Superior. Every hon.
member admitted the propriety of borrowing
money to pay off the Hudson's Bay Company,
to organize that Government there, and to
obtain communication with it. But the Government had no power to borrow the money
until the matter had been agreed to in Committee of the Whole, and hence they asked
for
it in that way.
Hon. Mr. Smith asked explanations about
the vote of $5,200, two years' salary as a gratuity to the retiring Warden of Kingston
Penitentiary. If this gentleman had been an officer
of the Province of Canada, why should not
his retiring allowance be charged to that
Province.
Hon. Mr. Rose said the retiring Warden
had rendered 25 or 30 years' faithful service,
and had now retired in consequence of old
age and infirmity. No one would say that
he did not merit some allowance, and it was
given in this form because there was no provision for pensions for retiring public
officers.
Mr. Mackenzie, in reply to Hon. Mr. Smith's
remark, said that already the complication of
accounts between the several Provinces was
bad enough, but it would be worse if payments like this were charged to the Province
in which the officer had rendered service.
He thought it better it should be charged to
the Dominion, representing the Province on
which the chief burden of such payments
would probably fall.
SUPPLY
The House then went into Committee of
Supply,
Mr. Street in the chair.
The item was agreed to.
On the item, Maintenance of the Nova
Scotia Railway—additional $30,000—in reply
to Mr. Mackenzie,
Hon. Mr. McDougall said it was not the
case that the road had been worked more
successfully before Confederation than since.
In 1866 the actual deficit was $33,835. In
the year ending 30th June 1868 the expenses were $255,530, and the revenue $253,994,
making a deficit of $1,506. The estimate for
the current year, based on the result of 10
months, gave an expenditure of $270,000, and
a revenue of about the same amount. As regarded the European and North American
Railway of New Brunswick, in 1866 the gross
receipts were $148,330, and the repairs and
working expenses, $96,570. In 1868 the revenue was $166,758, and working expenses
$131,684. For the first 9 months of the present
year the revenue was $136,664, and the expenses $90,212.
The item was agreed to, as were also the
remaining items in the supplementary estimates for 1868-9.
On the item in the Supplementary Estimates for the year ending 30th June, 1870,
for opening communication with the North-
West Territory, etc., $1,460,000.
Mr. Mackenzie asked what measures were
to be taken to open up means of access to Red
River. He thought it necessary to have immediately a road that would be passable in
some way or another. His impression was
that it should be proceeded with this season,
so as to enable people to reach Red River
early next season—through our own territory.
Hon. Mr. McDougall said, already there
were working parties on part of the route-
that from Lake Superior to the navigable
waters—and 5 or 6 miles had been constructed. Immediately after the action of the
House
as to the actual transfer of the North-West
Territory, Mr. Snow's party had been sent out
to complete the road from Lake of the Woods
to Fort Garry. The Audit Act standing in the
way, he had himself advanced a little of his
credit with the Bank of Montreal, in anticipation of the vote of this House. As to
the
water communication, that was a matter the
876 COMMONS DEBATES June 18, 1869
Government had not yet undertaken to deal
with. He had seen notices in the newspapers
that parties were prepared, with reasonable
encouragement, to put on the navigable
reaches of navigation, boats of proper construction. The first thing was to get the
road,
and then the water communication could be
taken advantage of. The works immediately
contemplated involved an expenditure of
$270,000, the whole of which would, probably,
not be expended within the year.
Hon. Mr. Holton claimed that the House
was entitled to full information as to how it
was proposed to employ the $1,460,000 now
asked.
Hon. Mr. Rose said it was impossible, before the country was actually acquired, to
give all the details of this expenditure.
Hon. Mr. Rose replied that a large expenditure would be necessary. We had to provide means of access
to the Territory, must
make surveys, and must take energetic means
to get people into the Territory. In order to
do this a loan was necessary, and the round
sum of ÂŁ300,000 sterling had been fixed upon.
All the Government now asked was a vote
of credit for that amount, and the details of
their scheme would be submitted to Parliament next session.
Hon. Mr. Holton admitted that the money
required for opening the North-West should
be borrowed rather than raised by taxation;
but was it necessary to borrow it now? Had
not the Finance Minister stated yesterday
that he had $9,000,000 which he had the
greatest possible difficulty in investing? Why
then should he borrow in addition to this
large amount, when he would have to expend during the next year some $200,000.
He contended that before the House was
asked to vote this million and a half, the
Government should submit some settled policy.
Hon. Mr. Rose pointed out that if he were
to take the money referred to by the member for Chateauguay and apply it to paying
the Hudson's Bay Company or opening up
the North West, it would be, according to
that hon. gentleman's doctrine, a breach of
trust.
This individual participated in:
