194 The New North-West Territory. [COMMONS.]
THE NEW NORTH-WEST TERRITORY.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE moved the
second reading of the "Bill respecting
"the North-West Territories, and to
"create a separate territory out of part
"thereof." He said—I have very little
to say in addition to the remarks I made
in introducing the Bill. The intention
is simply to appoint the Governor of
Manitoba to govern the territory immediately east and north of the present
Province—to detach, in other words,
all the portion known as the North- West Territory east of Manitoba and
Lake Winnipegoosis, and to create a
new territory, which shall in the
meantime be governed by the Governor of Manitoba. It is uncertain when
we may have the boundary on the
west and east side of Ontario determined. The boundaries of the
North-West Territories on the east
are equally uncertain, and it is
considered desirable in the interest of
the good government of the country
that we would have this arrangement
made. As soon as the western boundary of Ontario is determined, and if the
Province of Manitoba take no action
for the enlargement of the boundaries
of that Province, another arrangement
may be made.
The first section of the Bill is devoted entirely to a description of the
boundary and the Territory. I cannot
remember the name for it at the present, but it is an Indian name.
The second section repeals certain
provisions which are not made applicable under this Act.
The third section provides that the
Lieut.-Governor of Manitoba shall be
ex officio Governor of this district.
We take power in the fourth section
to constitute and appoint a Council if
need be. We do not anticipate there
will be any necessity for it, nor do we
make provision for paying any members of the Council. It is merely to enable us, if
necessary, to constitute persons to advise the Lieut.-Governor for
the time being.
The other provisions of the Act are
practically making applicable the provisions of the general Act of last Session and
the schedules at the end of the
Bill of the Acts that relate to the Government of the North-West Territories.
In the seventh section provision is
made for the transmission by the Governor of that Province to the Governor
in Council at Ottawa, within ten days
from the passage of any law, a copy
thereof: this is in accordance with
existing provisions of the law.
Mr. MASSON—I would like to know
why clause 11 in the North-West Territories Act is left out of this Bill;
whether it has been found unnecessary
or impracticable? A great many
powers are taken from the Territorial
Government, among them those
which provide for taxation for local
purposes. The Hon. Premier will, of
course, give us his reasons for curtailing powers which, last session, he
thought it necessary to confer to so
large an extent. I would like to know
what means the Local Government
will have to provide for improvements
and for the education of the people.
The New North-West Territory. [FEBRUARY 22, 1876.] 195
Will they be obliged to appeal to the
Federal Government to provide for
these things?
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—The Bill is
only temporary in its character. Section eleven refers only to the Act of last
Session. The laws established by this
Bill are those in force at the present
moment in the North-West Territories
—neither more nor less. The Act of
last Session proposed the creation of a
municipal system and conferred practically all the powers of self-government as a
Province. It is only when
such powers are exercised that the
clause in question comes into operation.
Mr. MASSON—How will the people
of that country be educated or provided
with public improvements?
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—They will
have precisely the same power they
have at present in the North-West
Territories under the existing laws.
Hon. Mr. TUPPER—Does this Bill
affect the powers conveyed by the
North-West Territories Act, so far as
its jurisdiction goes?
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—It detaches
this section of country from the jurisdiction of the North-West Territories'
Government.
Mr. MASSON—I understand the
Government last Session when they introduced their Bill thought it advisable
to provide for education. They now
give no power for municipal taxation
or the education of the people. Is
there any law in that Territory which
gives to the people there those rights
and privileges assured to them by the
11th clause of the Act of last Session?
Hon. Mr. BLAKE—The Act of last
Session has not yet been put in force.
At present all the Territories of the
North-West are governed from Manitoba. The Act of last Session pro
posed, and I think rightly proposed a
system which gave rudimentary representative institutions coincidently with
its going into effect. The Bill of this
Session takes off a very small portion
of the enormous territories of the
North-West for the particular purpose
which my hon. friend, the Premier,
clearly explained. He pointed out
in the present condition of that
country, with its comparatively limited
means of access, with its vast unsettled
plains, and with a portion of the territory lying partly east of Manitoba,
that it was advisable as a mere temporary measure to adopt this system of
government in that country for a
short time. He pointed out as soon
as the boundary of Ontario and the
North-West Territories was settled,
the question would immediately arise
whether a portion of any territory, for
present purposes annexed to Manitoba,
would belong to that Province. If not
annexed to Manitoba it would be under
the jurisdiction of the Government at
Fort Pelly. If this territory isÂ
annexed to Manitoba the laws of that
Province relating to schools will apply
to it. If re-anne: ed to the North- West Territories, clause 11 of the Act
of last Session will apply. But this
cannot be done without at the same
time conferring powers of taxation,
and no such powers can be exercised
without representative institutions.—
We could not give to the few people
there representative institutions, and
therefore we continue for that part of
the Territories the primitive system of
government—the same system which
the right hon. gentleman opposite
thinks should continue for a long
time to come. Now, that is not the
view of the Government, as the
Premier explained. He said the Act
was passed last Session with the intention of bringing it into operation at
the earliest practicable moment; but
pending the settlement of the boundary question it is proposed to leave
the few people who will be outside of
this territory in the position that they
now occupy.
Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD—As I
stated at the time the Bill was introduced last Session, I think that territory might
well be governed from
Manitoba without a separate Legisla
196 The New North-West Territory. [COMMONS.]
ture, but I did not at all contemplate
that country would remain for a long
time without a government of its own.
My contention was that the constitutional Governor of Manitoba had so
little to do he could economically
enough for a good many years govern
the whole of the Territories under the
provisions of the Bill of last Session.
Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD—The
hon. gentleman will find if he looks
back that I approved of the Bill, and
the only objection was that a separate
Government was unnecessary. This
Bill is a permanent one on the face of
it, and I think a clause should be introduced to say that it is temporary.
Under this Act there can be no taxation. Then any expense or cost in
working the machinery of the
Government of this country will, I take
it, be chargeable on the Dominion Treasury.
My hon. friend will no doubt explain
later in the Session why the Act of last
year was not brought into force. If
I recollect aright, when that Bill was
introduced to this House, I ventured
to state, with the sparse population
of the West, outside the boundary of
Manitoba, that the Lieut.-Governor of
that Province would perform all the
duties of government required for a
time in the Territories, and there would
be no necessity for establishing a separate Government until the country had
been better settled. But it was stated
by my hon. friend that it was highly
expedient that there should be a Lieut- Governor and a Government appointed
for the Territories without any delay.
Delay has taken place; and I venture to
say that that portion of the country
need not be brought under the operation of the law at present. The reason
is still stronger now than it has been
since last Session, as part of the territory is taken away under this Act,
the part which has the most population.
As I understand the boundaries, the
bulk of the territory that will come
under the provisions of this Act lie to
the east of the western boundary of
this Province, and to the east and
north of the eastern boundary of Manitoba. The majority of the people who
have gone into our Western country
are settled in this district; at
all events, a large percentage
of them have settled about Lake Winnipegoosis in the immediate vicinity of
Manitoba, although not within the
limits of its jurisdiction; therefore there
is less reason for the establishment of
the new Government under the Act of
last Session. There can be no satisfactory legislation by a Government of
this kind, even if the population were
there, for you cannot have educational
legislation or impose taxes. Even
though they had Municipal Councils
they have not the authority to confer
on them powers which they do not possess themselves, to impose school taxes;
therefore the ordinances passed by the
Lieut.-Governor in Council would be
of a very unsatisfactory and inadequate
description. It would, no doubt, be
satisfactory to the House to ascertain
how long the hon. gentleman thinks
that that country will be governed
under this Act.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—There are
several reasons why the Act of last
Session was not put in force, some of
which I can mention to the House. In
the first place it was very desirable we
should obtain the utmost possible information as to the probably distribution of population
that would settle in
the different districts of country. The
Great Lone Land, as Mr. Butler terms it,
was but imperfectly known, and it is
only by recent explorations that many
facts concerning it have come to our
knowledge—facts that seem to be essential in considering the question of creating
the seat of Government. We had determined on a vigorous course of action
with regard to the expulsion of offenders
by the North-West Mounted Police,
and through their efforts we have been
able to vindicate the majesty of the
British law in these territories. By
their means we have been enabled to
acquire a great deal of information
respecting the settlement and resources
of certain parts of the country of which
very little was previously known.
We find that a large population is
rapidly settling at the north bend of the
Saskatchewan River, where there is a
population already of between 500 and
1,000 souls. South of that, where the
railway is to cross, the land at the south
The New North-West Territory. [February 22, 1876.] 197
branch is being located, and one person
has erected a saw and grist mill this
year. Assuming the Jaspar House and
Lake Winnipeg are the central points,
the place where we shall likely establish the seat of Government is 250
miles from Fort Pelly, and 550 miles
distant from the town of Winnipeg.
At one time we thought Fort Pelly
was the best place for the establishment of the Government House, but
other information leads us to the conclusion that it would be better to
remove it further west. A vast territory can be developed, and is now
partly developed, in the Peace River
District. Fort Pelly appears to be too
far east, and Government would be
more difficult if located there than if
it were established at the center of the
Territories. It is already difficult to
reach remote settlements by any
authority that we can put in
motion, and we must have an
authority that can easily extend to the
different points. The place which we
shall probably select as the seat of
Government must be one favourable
for the location of a considerable
town; it ought also to be favourable
as an agriculatural district, with an
abundance of fuel and timber, and
easy access from the different posts
established by the Government in the
Territories. I have far less doubt now
than ever of the wisdom of establishing this authority, and of the utter
impossibility of the Governor of Manitoba governing that vast territory.
The Indian question itself, is a very
serious one. We have found it necessary to ask Lieut.-Governor Morris,
who has devoted himself earnestly and
with an assiduity beyond all praise to
make himself useful in developing that
territory, to travel 200 or 300 miles
to meet the Indians in treaty, and
it was impossible for him to make
that journey in less than two or three
weeks. We cannot expect him, when
we are obliged to meet and treat with
other Indian bands in the Far West, to
leave his Government for eight weeks
at a time on this business. We find it
necessary therefore to have another
officer of superior rank, equal to that of
the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba,
to meet those Indians, although
Lieutenant Governor Morris has not
his hands so full that he could not
give his attention to more work in his
immediate vicinity. It is a different
thing when he is asked to travel 400
or 500 miles from his own Province,
when matters pertaining to the Territories would demand his consideration.
I have felt myself at liberty to consult
with Lieutenant Governor Morris on
all these matters. Although we were
not politically allied, it does not prevent us from entering cordially into
matters connected with these Territories, and it was entirely his opinion,
as well as the opinion of this Administration, that until this boundary question between
Ontario and the North- West Territories is settled, the portion
east of Manitoba should be governed by
the authority settled in that Province.
We cannot apply the laws of Onatrio
to any part of that territory, although
it may belong to this Province, until
the boundary is decided on. Ontario
claims the whole of it to Manitoba;
while others assume that the boundary
is as far east as Fort William, and that
the terminus of the Pacific Railway
there is really in the North-West
Territories. If all the territory west
of Fort William is given to Ontario,
then the laws in relation to Onatrio
will come into immediate operation
there; on the other hand if the North- West boundary is found to be at Fort
William, then the laws applicable to
the North-West Territories will be enforced there, and we can conceive of no
difficulty that can arise that will prevent
us from being able to determine these
boundaries by legislation next Session
of Parliament. The only settlement
of any consequence east of Lakes Winnipegoosis and Manitoba, is the settlement of
Icelanders on the shores of
Lake Winnipeg. There are very few
settlers in that region, and though our
friends claim that there is but little
land in that direction that can be
settled, recent explorations have lead
us to a different opinion. Settlement
has gone south of Lake Manitoba,
and north of Lake Winnipeg there
is also a very considerable settlement. The prospect is that there will
also be a very large population on the
slope of the Rocky Mountains, where
Colonel McLeod is stationed with the
Mounted Police force, near Fort Benton.
198 The New North-West [COMMONS] Territory.
Our officers there collected in something like six months $6,000 in duties
on articles imported from the United
States. The territory there is developing into a very rich country. It is a
very fine grazing section, although
from its greater elevation it is a little
more subject to frosts than the other
parts of the country of less elevation.
There can be no doubt that the country
from Lake St. Henry to the North
Saskatchewan and a little beyond it is
eminently favourable for settlement.
There is a steady descent from the
boundary northward. At the boundary
the elevation of the prairie land is not
far from 5,000 feet. At the Jaspar
House it is about 3,500 feet on the
average. Progressing northward towards Smoky River, it is not more
than 2,000 feet. Where the Peace River
bends southward we find that the elevation of the prairie is not much more
than 1,000 feet above the level of the
sea, and with its declination north
the climate grows milder, and the isothermal lines appear to follow the level
of the country. This indicates two
things:—That there is a rich country fit
for settlement from the United States
boundary all the way north to Lake
Arthabaska, and that as we go northward the land is better than in the south.
There is no reason why a very large
population should not pass into that
vast country, stretching northward
seven hundred miles, and enjoy a
climate as favourable as in any part of
Canada proper, except, perhaps, the
south-west peninsula of Ontario. These
considerations render it necessary, in
our opinion, that this central authority
should be established; that the people
abroad who read our reports and seek
for information about our country
should understand that we have not
merely an immense extent of fertile
territory in the North-West, but that
it is in a position that law and order
can be enforced; that there is nothing
to be feared from the wandering tribes
of aborigines, and that everything has
been done to prepare for the introduction and settlement of the large population that
may naturally be expected
to arrive from Europe. These measures
have been adopted after due consideration, and the Bill is to provide for a
difficulty of only temporary existence
in consequence of the delay in ascertaining the western boundary of
Ontario and the eastern boundary of
the North-West Territories.
Sir JOHN A. MACDONALD—My
hon. friend will see that a permanent
Act doing away what that clause might
create misunderstanding, and probably
dissatisfaction.
Hon. Mr. MACKENZIE—I shall
consider whether it will be necessary
to insert the words mentioned before
the third reading of the Bill.
Mr. KIRKPATRICK—I think it very
desirable that it should be a temporary
Act, for in its wording I think that there
are some very objectionable features. It
assumes the delegation of our authority,
not only to the Governor in the Council, but
further to the Lieutenant-Governor in
Council, and the Lieutenant-Governor
is to have the authority and power of
altering our laws; that is, he is to have
greater power than we give to any Provincial Legislature, greater than we
gave last year to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, in the North-West
Territory, advised by an Elective
Council. I do not think that is right,
nor do I consider that it was intended
such power should be granted to
an irresponsible body, or the Lieutenant-Governor in Council. The hon. gentlemen present,
who were in the House
some years ago, will remember how
sarcastically the present Chief Justice
of Manitoba used to refer to this new
institution of the Governor in Council;
and this is now to be extended in a most
remarkable manner. We are delegating
these powers to the Lieutenant-Governor, with the power of altering,
amending, and modifying any Acts, or
Act, of the Parliament of Canada, or
any parts thereof.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE—Would my hon.
friend allow me to tell him that this is
simply a consolidation of the laws
under which that Territory is governed
to-day?
Mr. KIRKPATRICK—I think that
my hon. friend is mistaken, I cannot
find it in the North-West Territories
Act.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE—I am not speaking of the North-West Territories Act
of 1875, which is not in force, but of
laws passed by my hon. friend's leader.
The New North-West Territory. [February 22, 1876.] 199
Mr. KIRKPATRICK—If the right
hon. gentleman passed an objectionable
law, I do not think that we should
re-enact it. It is no reason because he
is an ass, that you should be a basilisk.
This would be over-riding the legislation of the country, and I think that
when my hon. friend, the Minister of
Justice, looks into it closely, he will see
what I contend is really the case.
Hon. Mr. BLAKE—I may say in
answer to my hon. friend that this
Bill has been, I believe, prepared with
great care. Instructions were given
that this should be done in the consolidation of the existing laws under which
the territory is governed. We repeal
the three Acts which are at present in
force there, and simply re-enact a
a measure giving precisely the same
powers; we did not intend to alter,
and I do not believe that we have
altered, these powers in any particular.
Hon. Mr. TUPPER—I would like to
ask the Head of the Government at
what time he proposes to put the
North-West Territories Act into operation?
Hon. Mr. Tupper— With reference
to this Bill I congratulate the Government on the conclusion at which they
have arrived, after careful consideration, concerning the other measure.
Last year we had the North-West
Territories Bill introduced and
passed. Provision had formerly been
made for the Government of that Province by the Government of Manitoba,
and a Council composed of a
number of gentlemen of high standing
and of great ability, who had given a
great deal of time and attention to any
legislation, or any measures found
necessary in this connection. The
Administration thought it wise to introduce a Bill last Session, for the government
of these Territories, abolishing
this unpaid Council, and providing for
the appointment of an independent and
separate Government and Council, with
the varioous other machinery required.
It was also at the time announced
to the House that it was the intention
to establish that Government at Fort
Pelly. It appeared to me that it would
be wise to pause before incurring this
new expenditure. We had already all
that was necessary for the government
of Manitoba. This Session we are
asked to create a new authority,
and what was the reason given?
That there was a number of inhabitants in the adjacent district, and
that it was desirable that they should
be brought under the influence of the
Local Government, but only until the
time when the boundaries were established between Ontario and the
North-West Territory. I undersoodÂ
my hon. friend to say he hoped that
matter would be adjusted when
Parliament would meet at the next
Session. If this be the case I cannot
understand why we should go to this
expense.
Hon. Mr. TUPPER— The hon. gentlemen provides for the establishment of
a Council.
Hon. Mr. TUPPER— Very well,
I do not then understand why it is
necessary to alter the North-West
Territories Act in relation to this
section, if it is intended to put the Act
in force at all, especially when my hon.
friend told the House that he intended to ask for different legislation
at the next Session of Parliament
touching this matter. This is a
question to which I am sure the House
will give its most careful consideration. I think that the facts
quite justify a postponement as
well as the wisdom of obtaining still
further legislation with respect to this
whole country before we materially
change its form of Administration.
It is besides inexpedient to adopt
legislation for a single season. No
doubt, it is very important that what
is designed for new countries in this
relation, shall be changed as seldom as
possible, for the people have become familiar with laws of a certain kind, and
with a certain mode of Government,
and it is not well that a year afterwards this legislation should be swept
away to be replaced by another system.
Experience shows the wisdom of a little
delay in connection with such matters,
200 Salaries of County Court Judges. [COMMONS.]
and we should comply with the dictates
of experience in the present instance,
if we permit the measure to stand
over for a time.
Mr. SMITH (Selkirk)—It must be
evident to everyone, and more
especially to those who are intimately
acquainted with the subject, that a
territory of such vast extent, cannot be
properly and suitably governed from
a point so distant as Winnipeg. At the
same time I was very glad to hear the
observations and explanations given by
the Prime Minister—and that is, that
the seat of Government of the proposed new Province is to be removed
a considerable distance further west.
In the North-West there are already
very large settlements at different
points near Bow River and the South
Saskatchewan, and again beyond
Edmonton, and at Fort Albert, &c.,—
perhaps altogether comprising four or
five thousand people; but there
is also a district to the north of
that again, equally well fitted
for settlement with the region
south of the Saskatchewan. A few
days ago I received a letter from a
gentleman in the Peace River District,
who has travelled over the greater
portion of the northern part of the
territory, and he states his belief that
for one acre of good land to the south
of the Saskatchewan, there are five
acres to the north. I am not quite so
sanguine; but, at the same time, I
know that there is a very large extent
of country to the north which is as
well suited for settlement as the portion
to the south. Settlers will come both
from the United States in the direction
of Bow River, and also from British
Columbia and the United States by
way of Peace River, and it is absolutely necessary that there should be
some legal Government to give attention to any difficulties which may arise.
It must be further recollected that
in this portion of the Territory, the
great body of the Indian population is
found; there are very different to
those in the south, and if there are any
troubles to be experienced, danger is to
to be apprehended from the Indian
tribes living on the upper portion of
the Saskatchewan. I do not, myself,
fear any such troubles, but many do,
and I consider that it would be only
prudent to take the necessary precautions. With regard to the section it is
proposed to detach from the North-West
Territory, I am of opinion that the
provisions of the former Act would be
found quite sufficient for the time
being. That Act has been there
administered during three or four
years by a Council, which instead
of having too much power, I consider
had scarcely enough authority in
several instances. Indeed, it was more
an Advisory Council than anything
else, and the Government has really
been controlled from Ottawa; but
nevertheless I must say that the
Dominion Government has, on most
occasions, given every consideration to
the recommendations of this Council,
and carried them out. I do think that
for the moment the provisions of the
old Act will be quite sufficient as
regards the comparatively small portion
settled, and of the district which it is
to detach, nine-tenths or ninety-nine
hundredths, or nine hundred and
ninety-nine thousandths, will have no
settlement for many, many years
to come; and neither require legislation respecting taxation or schools,
or almost any other purpose during that period. Settlement will be
somewhat tardy between the Lakes
Winnipegoosis and Winnipeg, also
a small portion near the mouth
of the Winnipeg River, and possibly
near Fort Francis or Rainy
River. I trust that the Government
will persevere with the measure, and
carry out the promises of the Act of
last Session as concerns the large section of the territory west and north of
Lake Winnipegoosis, which can be
properly governed by any Council such
as that which is proposed for the portion to be detached in this Bill.
The Bill was read the second time.
This individual participated in:
