[JUNE 15, 1897] 4110
NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES.
Bill (No. 114) further to amend the Acts
respecting the North-west, was read the
second time, and the House resolved itself
into committee.
(In the Committee.)
On section 2,
2. The paragraph lettered (c.) of section 2 of the
said Act is hereby repealed and the following
substituted therefor :—
"c. The expression ' Lieutenant-Governor in
Council' means the Lieutenant-Governor of the
Territories, by and with the advice and consent
of the Executive Council of the Territories, or in
conjunction with the Executive Council of the
Territories, as the case may be."
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR
(Mr. Sifton). We are simply bringing the
definition of Lieutenant-Governor in Council
in the Territories into line with the definition of Lieutenant-Governor in Council
in
the provinces.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. You are taking
away the personal action of the Lieutenant-
Governor and making him act with his
Council.
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[COMMONS] 4112
On section 8,
8. Subsection one of section six of chapter
twenty-two of the statutes of 1891 is hereby
amended by striking out the words " at any time
in force in " in the fifth line thereof, and substituting in lieu thereof the words
" declared to be
applicable to."
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
I move in amendment to strike out
the words " subsection 1 of " so that
the clause will read " section 6 of chap. 22
of the statutes of 1891." At the time the
Bill was introduced I explained that one of
the provisions was we should strike out the
limitation in the Act relating to the Northwest Territories, preventing the legislative
assembly legislating with regard to insurance companies. The clause was accidentally
omitted to have that effect, and I beg
to move the amendment which will effect
the intention explained at the time the Bill
was introduced. The Act at present in
force gives the legislative assembly authority on certain subjects, among which are
the following :—The incorporation of companies with territorial objects with the following
exceptions "—and among the exceptions are " insurance companies." The
amendment that I move would strike out
this exception of insurance companies.
Amendment agreed to, and section as
amended agreed to.
On section 9,
9. Section eighteen of chapter seventeen of the
statutes of 1894 is hereby repealed and the following substituted therefor :—
" 18. No person holding any office, commission
or employment to which an annual salary from
the Crown is attached, shall be eligible as a
member of the Legislative Assembly, or shall
sit or vote therein, during the time he holds such
office, commission or employment; but nothing
herein contained shall render ineligible any member of the Executive Council of the
Territories,
by reason of any salary, fee, allowance, emolument or profit of any kind or amount
attaching
to such membership, from being a member of
the Assembly, or shall disqualify him from sitting
or voting therein : Provided he is elected while
holding such office, and is not otherwise disqualified."
Mr. DAVIN. I think that the old section
No. 18. passed in 1894, was quite right under
the circumstances, of that time :
No member of the Executive Committee of the
Territories shall, by reason or any salary, fee,
allowance, emolumen't or profit of any kind or
amount attaching to such membership, be disqualified from sitting or voting in the
Legislative
Assembly.
As I understand the new clause it simply
provides that when a member of the Assembly accepts office he will have to go back
for re-election.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Yes. that is the usual clause ; it provides
that members accepting office shall go back
to the people for re-election.
On section 10,
Section forty-nine of the said Act is hereby
repealed and the following substituted therefor :—
" 49. The court shall sit in banc at such times
and places as the Lieutenant-Governor in Council appoints ; the senior judge present
shall preside, and three judges of the court shall constitute a quorum."
Amendment agreed to.
On section 11,
11. Subsection one of section fifty-six of the
said Act, as amended by section eight of chapter
twenty-two of the statutes of 1891, is hereby repealed, and the following substituted
therefor :—
" 56. For each judicial district the Governor in
Council may appoint a sheriff and the Lieutenant-
Governor in Council may appoint a clerk of the
court and may respectively name the place at
which such sheriff and clerk shall reside and
keep an oflice ; and the clerk of the district within which the seat of Government
of the Territories is situate, shall be registrar of the court
sitting in banc."
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. The
law now is that the Governor General in
Council appoints both the sheriff and the
clerk of the court. Under the proposed arrangement the Governor General in Council
will still appoint the sheriff while the local
Government shall appoint the clerk of the
court.
On section 12.
12. Subsection one of the section substituted
for section sixty-four of the said Act by section
seven of chapter seventeen of the statutes of
1894 is hereby repealed and the following substituted therefor :—
" 64. The Lieutenant-Governor may appoint
justices of the peace for the Territories, who shall
have jurisdiction as such throughout the same;
but, until the Legislative Assembly otherwise provides, no person shall be appointed
a justice of
the peace for the Territories, or shall act as
such, who is not the owner in fee simple for his
own use and benefit of lands lying and being in
the Territories of and above the value of three
hundred dollars over and above what will satisfy and discharge all incumbrances affecting
the
same, and over and above all rents and charges
payable out of or affecting the same, and who
has not resided in the Territories for a period of
at least three years."
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The only change is that the words " until
the Legislative Assembly otherwise provides," are inserted in the 12th and 13th
lines. The effect is that the qualifications
of justices of the peace remains as it was,
so far as this Parliament is! concerned, but
we give the Legislative Assemblies power to
4113 [JUNE 15, 1897] 4114
legislate in regard to the qualification of
justices of the peace.
On section 14,
14. Subsection four of the section substituted
for section sixty-four of the said Act by section
seven of chapter seventeen of the statutes of 1894
is hereby amended by striking out all the words
after " years " in the fourth line thereof.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
This has to do with the qualifications of the
police magistrates. The law as it is now
provides that no person shall be appointed
a police magistrate unless he is admitted and
has practiced as an advocate, barrister, or
solicitor in one of the provinces of Canada
for a period of not less than three years, or
is a magistrate of not less than three years
of standing in Canada. This has the effect
of striking out the latter portion of that
clause, because it is believed a man should
not be a police magistrate unless he has
been a practicing barrister for at least three
years.
On section 15,
15. Subsection one of section eighty-eight of
the said Act is hereby amended by striking out
the words " Lieutenant-Governor" in the third
line thereof, and substituting the words " Legislative Assembly" in lieu thereof.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR. In
this section I desire to move an amendment
which has been suggested by Mr. Justice
Wetmore, of the North-west Court, and concurred in by the Department of Justice respecting
the definition of larceny. By section 66 of the North-west Territories Act,
the jurisdiction of the judges of the Supreme
Court of the Territories is defined, and
under subsection "A" of this section authority is given to the judges to try any
person charged with having committed or
attempted to commit larceny, embezzlement,
or obtaining money or property by false pretenses or feloniously receiving stolen
property in any case in which the value or the
whole property so stolen, &c., does not,
in the opinion of the said judge, exceed
the sum of $200. The Criminal Act has abolished the use of the term larceny and the
technical distinction formerly known to the
Criminal Law by which stealing was denominated larceny and certain technical
words used to describe the offence. The
definition is a simple one, the act being defined as theft or stealing.
The distinction between a misdemeanour
and a felony was founded on the old rules
of the criminal law, and as the law exists
at present a question might arise as to whether the judges of the Northwest Territories
had jurisdiction to try for theft. In
accordance with the suggestion or Judge
Wetmore. I move in amendment that the
word " larceny " in the sections I have read,
be changed to " theft " and that the word
" felonious " be struck out.
On section 16.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The eifect of this is to abolish the omce of
clerk of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, and put the office under the jurisdiction
of the legislative assembly. We have a
clerk there whom we pay $2,000 a year, and
I do not see any reason why we should
have such an officer there when the legislative assembly can employ their own clerk
for a much less sum.
Mr. DAVIN. I think we ought to put in
something to save the officer. The present
occupant of that office is a Dominion officer.
and he has been a most effective officer. I
can safely say that at the time he became
an officer of the Government, his qualities
and talents were of the greatest advantage
to the North-west Territories. I may say as
regards the politics of this gentleman, Mr. R.
B. Gordon, that I believe his politics are of
the neutral tint; however, if he had any,
he never manifested them. But I think
that when we have had a man there in our
employ, giving him $2,000 a year, and when
we are about to amend an Act which will
give another body power of either retaining
that man or dismissing him, I think we
ought to limit the power of appointing a
clerk to the time when, either by death or
by retirement, Mr. Gordon ceases to be
clerk.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I think that is
a matter that may be left safely to the parties who are to be clothed with power to
deal with it. I am afraid that the suggestion of my hon. friend is not practicable.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
Gentlemen who have been doing official
business with this officer for years past, I
understand, are on perfectly good terms
with him.
That after the word " territory " in subsection
one there be added the following words - " Subject to any right which may have been
acquired under letters patent issued previous to
such transfer."
The object of that amendment is, to avoid
the Government being compelled to transfer a trail, without having regard to the
fact, that a patent might have been issued
before for a certain part of the trail.
Amendment agreed rto.
On section 20,
Mr. DAVIN. Why is it that the Minister
is getting rid of subsection 2 of section 21 ?
Is it no longer necessary ?
Mr. DAVIN. 'But under this section you
would repeal it ?
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The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
There may be something in the point raised
by the hon. gentleman (Mr. Davin), and I
will amend the section to meet his views.
Mr. BERGERON. Do I understand that
the intention of this Bill is, to give the Territories autonomous government like
the older provinces ?
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The Bill will give the people of the
Territories a government which shall not
have the full powers of a provincial
government, but in so far as they have
power to deal with subjects, they shall do
it in the same way as the other provinces.
They will have Ministers who are responsible to the legislature, and the rules and
precedents that apply to the provincial governments will apply to the government of
the
Territories.
Mr. BERGERON. Then the Territories
will be constituted under one legislature,
and I presume this Government will have
to pay them the necessary expenses. Will
this Bill increase the present expenses ?,
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
De facto, they have this kind of
government now. They have an executive committee of the assembly who are the
responsible advisers of the Lieutenant-Governor. It is a practice which has grown
up,
but the constitution does not provide for it
in the proper form.
Mr. BERGERON. I do not see that there
is much object in this Bill. I believe that
as soon as we can, we should constitute
the North-west Territories into a province,
and give them responsible government in a
complete form.
Mr. BERGERON. This Bill will make
very little difierence to them, except that I
believe it will increase the expenses to us.
Let the Territories have their own government, and pay for their own expenses, and
let us get rid of them as soon as possible
in that way.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I must say a
single word in qualification of what my hon.
friend (Mr. Bergeron) has stated. I am sure
that no one wants to get rid of our friends
in the Territories.
Mr. BERGERON. I meant in the way of
getting rid of paying their expenses.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. On the con
trary, we want to steadily do what I think
this Act does, and the time has come when
such an Act was required. It gives them
power to deal with the local business of the
North-west Territories to a greater extent
than they were able to do before; but I do
not think it is calculated to increase the expenditure. It rather increases their
legislative power in accordance with the wishes
of the people.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR.
The principle upon which I acted is this. I
met the representatives of the territorial
government, and they explained to me—as
of course I knew before—that there has been
in the Territories for some years, an agitation in favour of what they called provincial
autonomy. Now, it is a subject with
which it would be extremely inconvenient
to deal until it takes some shape in the public mind. I fancy that any Government
that undertook to form an organization
there, without something more defined to go
by than we have at the present time,
would find very considerable difficulty.
But I said that if they wanted something of
a practical character which would assist
them in carrying on their business, no doubt
their wishes in that respect could be met.
They suggested, therefore, that a Bill such
as I have presented to the House would, for
the present, meet the views of the people ;
and I have not thought it advisable to go
further at the present time. but to allow
matters to develop. At a future time the
House may be called on to deal with the
question of the organization of a provincial
constitution.
Mr. BERGERON. I am sorry that the
hon. leader of the Opposition did, not understand me. I know that for some years it
has :been the ambition of the people of the
North-west to have provincial autonomy,
and I think upon that depends largely the
hope of the future prosperity of the country
Sir CHARLES HIBBERT TUPPER.
Who will now enact the school ordinances?
Are they in the power of the Governor in
Council or of the legislative assembly ?
Bill reported, as amended.
Mr. DAVIN. I want to say a few words
which I did not sayjbefore. lest I might delay the Bill. I am exceedingly glad to
see
this Bill go through. In 1888, when the
4117 [JUNE 15, 1897] 4118
Right Honourable Sir John Macdonald sat
where the Minister of Trade and
Commerce now sits, he brought down
a Bill to amend the North-west Territories Act, and I gave notice of
an amendment to that Bill that would have
introduced then precisely the change which
my hon. friend the Minister of the Interior
has now happily introduced, and I congratulate him. I may, as a little piece of history,
say what occurred. The leader of the then
Government (Sir John Macdonald) resented
my action, and withdrew his Bill, and
brought down another Bill, with a clause
in it which will be found in the Act of
1888. by which he introduced into our government what was called the Advisory
Council. I would not then speak on the
Bill, as there was no use trying to pass my
amendment, and my respect for my great
leader would not allow me to comment on
that clause and pour on it the ridicule it
deserved ; but I said to a friend of
mine, when he asked me why I did
not comment on it, " It is a mere
toy," as it turned out to be. In
consequence of pressure brought by myself
on the Government, we had a few years
afterwards an amendment, which introduced
a different state of things—which introduced
a committee of four to aid the governor ;
but that committee of four is a very inconvenient piece of machinery, as the hon.
gen
tleman knows, because, instead of being
chosen by the Government, it was chosen
by the legislative assembly. My hon. friend
here (Mr. Bergeron) and, to some extent, my
hon. friend the Minister of the Interior, are.
under a complete mistake in supposing that
there has been any agitation amongst the
people of the North-west for responsible
government. There is not. In this House,
whenever I advocated it, I found the members from the North-west Territories opposing
me. If the debates of 1888 are looked
at. it will be found that Mr. Macdowail,
and others, got up in the House and
said that the Territories did not want responsible government; and in Regina, at
the instance of a certain individual, a meeting was held at which resolutions were
passed to prevent my action in this House being
successful. I can say that the most
thoughtful people in the Territories have always held the views that I have held ;
but
at the same time there has been no agitation
and I have battled for this thing single-
handed. I believe it would have been a
good thing for the Territories if we had
had this legislation in 1888 : and subsequently, in 1891, when another change was
made,
it would have been much better for the Territories if this change had been made; so
that, instead of having a nondescript government, hampered in many ways, and with
more power than a government should have,
more irresponsible than this Government,
which we now create will be, we should
have had at once a stronger and more re
sponsible government, and my belief is that
we should have made more progress than
we have done. I am very glad to see this
Bill launched to the third reading, and to
see that we are going to have responsible
government in the (Territories.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the third
time and passed.
This individual participated in:
