UNION OF NEWFOUNDLAND
Hon. Mr. Rose moved concurrence in the resolutions
reported from Committee of the Whole on the subject of the union of Newfoundland
with the Dominion of Canada.
Mr. Blake rose to move an amendment having reference to
that portion of the resolution, which applied to the acquisition
by Canada of the public lands of Newfoundland. He would not wait till
that resolution was moved, considering it material that amendments should be submitted
at once, inasmuch as if it succeeded it would
displace the whole of the present scheme, which would have to be
re-arranged upon some other basis. He was opposed to the acquisition by
Canada of the public lands of Newfoundland. He was decidedly
opposed to the loss by Newfoundland of the public lands. The British North
America Act provided that the public lands of each of the
Provinces which were by that Act united should be retained by those provinces. He
believed the policy carried out by the Act in that
respect was unquestionable.
694 COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869
In the first place, if the public lands of various
Provinces were under the control of the
General Government, a General Government
might not suit the wishes of each Province;
and the attempt to manage the lands of the
different Provinces on different principles,
might also prove antagonistic to local feelings.
In the second place, the distance from the
seat of the General Government of the lands
taken under its control, would be so great as
of necessity to weaken the hands stretched
out so far, and to induce a management less
careful and less susceptible of being controlled
by the public opinion of the Provinces, than
would be the management by the Province
itself. In the third place, the distance and the
larger functions of the General Government
would necessarily increase the cost of the
administration of the public lands. And, lastly,
however prosperous the administration might
be, there could be no question that any
attempt by the general Government to reap
a revenue from the public lands of the Province or to apply the fruits of that prosperity
to general or other than Local purposes would
involve a feeling of dissatisfaction in the
Province concerned. These were some thought
not all the reasons which occurred to him
why, from a Canadian point of view, it was
right that the General Government should
abstain from assuming to itself the public
lands of the Provinces. Then as regarded the
Province itself he thought it of great importance, of exceptionally great importance,
in the case of Newfoundland, that their own
lands should be retained in their own hands,
having regard to the distance of the Province
from the Seat of Government and to the comparative smallness of its representation.
Here
it was, to say the least, not at all unlikely
that the policy which, at this distance, might
be adopted with reference to the lands of
Newfoundland, might be distasteful to the
people of that Province. If any chance existed,
and he should be sorry for a moment to cast
a doubt upon the chance of those lands assuming, not from their agricultural qualities,
but from the possible development of their
mineral wealth great additional value, it was
obvious that that value was more likely to
be promoted by local administration on the
spot. The position of the Local Legislature
and the Provincial institutions of Newfoundland would, to his mind, be overborne and
almost destroyed if they abstracted from that
Legislature this function. The population of
that Colony was small. It did not largely
exceed the population of the Municipal Corporation, one of the divisions of which
he
represented in this House. The municipality
of Northumberland and Durham had a popu
lation exceeding 100,000, and the population
of Newfoundland was estimated at 130,000
souls.
Mr. Blake proceeded to say that the functions
which would be left to the Legislature of Newfoundland to discharge were
almost exclusively of a municipal character, and if they took away
from it the management of its lands, he failed to see why they retained
in Newfoundland the expensive machinery of a legislative body.
Therefore the policy of the Union Act in regard to public lands while
eminently sound as to all the Provinces, appeared to him with
reference to this Colony above and beyond all the other Colonies
sound, and he thought a misfortune would be inflicted both on the Dominion
and on Newfoundland, if we took away from that Colony the
management of its lands and assumed it ourselves. He objected, also, that
there was no necessity for this arrangement. The proposed
barter of the public lands of Newfoundland for $150,000 a-year,
was a sham bargain. The Dominion would never reap pecuniarily and
directly any advantage from these mines and minerals. The development
of the mineral wealth of the Colony would promote the prosperity of
Newfoundland, and, through it, the prosperity of Canada; but to
attempt to derive a revenue from it, would be to strike a flat blow at the
prospect of mineral development at all. If we did our duty by
Newfoundland, in properly developing her mineral wealth, we could
not expect to derive a revenue from those lands. Under these
circumstances, if the choice were between our giving $150,000 a
year to Newfoundland and taking her lands, and our giving
$150,000 a year to Newfoundland and leaving her lands, he would
unhesitatingly vote in favour of the latter of these two propositions. He believed
the prosperity of the Colony would be largely
enhanced by the adoption of the latter alternative, and the pecuniary
results to Canada, would also be largely enhanced by it. He had considered
as attentively as he could what was the relative duty of those
proposing this amendment and of the Government under those circumstances,
and it had occurred to him that in proposing this amendment. it was
not his duty to embarass the negotiations, by preserving what in
their views had been the alternative terms of admission, but that they
ought to confine themselves to asserting and endeavouring, if they
could, to induce the House to agree to the proposition that the Union should
not be
696
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869 upon the basis of these lands being
acquired by Canada, leaving to hon. gentlemen opposite with whom the
duty rested, if the House should affirm this view, of entering into such
negotiations as would result in bringing down to the House a proposal
based on retention of lands by Newfoundland. He therefore moved the
following amendment: "That by the British North America Act of 1867, it is
in effect provided that each of the Provinces by that Act united,
should retain its public lands; that the public lands of Newfoundland proposed to
be purchased by Canada at the price of $150,000 a
year, or $3,000,000, do not pay the expenses of management; that the public
lands may be managed more efficiently, economically and
satisfactorily by the Province in which they are situated than by Canada;
that there is no good reason for a departure from the principles of
the British North America Act involved in the proposed purchase; that the House,
while prepared in settling the terms on which
Newfoundland should be admitted into the Union to give its earnest
consideration to any exceptional circumstances in the condition of
that Province, is of opinion that these terms should be so re-arranged
that Newfoundland would retain its public lands." Seconded by Hon. Mr.
Halton.
Hon. Mr. Tilley agreed that by the provisions
of the British North America Act each Province controlled its own public
domain, but he was speaking in the presence of members of
the conferences of Quebec and London, who knew as well as he did
that the proposition was made that the management and control of
public lands should be vested in the Dominion. It was urged at great length,
cogent reasons were advanced at the conference at London
especially that the public lands should not be in the hands of the Local
Governments. The General Government having control of emigration,
&c., it was felt that in order to give effect to such schemes as
they might propose, and to secure uniformity of system, that the
public domain should be administered by the Dominion Government, that they could
manage it more judiciously and wisely than
the local Governments. The majority decided that the land
should remain, as far as the four Provinces were concerned, in the hands of
the Local Legislature. But it was not so with Newfoundland.
In the case of that Province, they themselves suggested that their lands
should be placed in the hands of the Dominion Government.
Hon. Mr. Tilley—One of the reasons, he did not hesitate
to say, was that there might be a fixed sum for local matters which they
could not be sure of, if the lands were under their control and
management; and, now that this proposition had come from Newfoundland,
he did not hesitate to say, from his experience, from the difficulties we
had with reference to settling wild lands, emigration, and with regard to the resources
of the Dominion, that it was in the
public interest that all Canada lands should be placed in the hands of the
Dominion. But the Constitution had settled this otherwise in the case
of the Provinces in Confederation. With reference to the nature of the
agreement, he desired to say a word or two. He desired to state why he
thought Parliament should assent to this proposition, and
why the people of Newfoundland had a right to expect that it should not be
rejected. The arrangements made at Quebec were subsequently
aflirmed and confirmed by the Dominion. In the first place the
arrangements then made differed little from the general principles contained in
the London resolutions respecting the other Provinces.
The proposition that $150,000 should be paid for the land of
Newfoundland was assented to by an overwhelming majority of the
Parliament of Canada.
Hon. Mr. Tilley—We had them in the Act of Parliament
subsequently affirmed. It was aflirmed not only by the Canadian Parliament, but by
people of New Brunswick at the polls, and
subsequently by the Legislature of Nova Scotia. Having shown that the
principles of the London Conference were endorsed throughout the Dominion by the leading
members of the
Conference, all but one having been elected at the general election,
the honourable gentleman went on to regret that the followers of Hon. Mr.
Brown, a leading member of the Conference, had not taken the
view of this question which he had, and would doubtless have done. In his
Confederation speeches, and the articles which he had
written with his own hand, no doubt that honourable gentleman had strongly
urged the advantages of having Newfoundland in the Union on the terms
of the Quebec Conference. That the sum proposed to be paid to Newfoundland was not
regarded by them as a bribe, or as offering
extraordinary inducements to them to enter Confederation, was
evidenced by their taking four years to arrive
698
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869
at their present conclusion. As to the sum the Dominion would lose, he
did not think anything like what honourable gentlemen opposite imagined. Calculations
carefully made of the whole
imports of 1867, under the Canadian tariff as it stands, but omitting what
was imported that year from New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Quebec, and
Ontario, showed the amount to be $663,393.63.
Mr. Mackenzie wished the details. This was an important
statement and might have an important effect on the House.
Hon. Mr. Tilley said the statement was not made on his
authority but on good authority, and he would hand in the paper with the
details. Again it had to be borne in mind that previous to Union the
tariff of Newfoundland, which was lower than that of any of the Provinces at that
time, yielded more in proportion than any other
Province in the Dominion. If that continued to be the case, and if even
under the higher tariff of Canada it yielded $4 per head as might be
fairly expected, that would amount to nearly $600,000. The hon.
gentleman argued that under no circumstances could the loss be very great,
and proceeded to look at the question from another point of View.
Take, he said, the whole of the butter, biscuit, and other products of
Canada as well as her manufactures to a large extent, and we find that
even though large reductions in the imports of woollens and leather should
take place in Newfoundland, there would still be left $525,000. If
this were the case certainly the loss of the Dominion could not be very
great. Another calculation was this: Apply the tariff of last session
to the imports of 1867 and it gives $219,185.48. The inference is that
after Confederation, inasmuch as there is no doubt that they will continue
to consume more goods than in Canada, we will still be left a handsome
sum coming into the Treasury annually from that Island. The hon. gentleman next
defended Newfoundland from the accusation recently
made. He denied that Newfoundland was a pauper community and showed
from her banking returns that not only did the masses of the people deposit
more largely in Banks than was the case in the other Provinces of the
Dominion, but that the general condition of the trading community was healthful.
During 18 years in business in St. John's,
Newfoundland, the Bank of British North America never lost a dollar. He
noticed the fact that almhouses and similar institutions were
supported by the Legislature, but that last year they had abolished all
grants to able-bodied poor. He also noticed the economy in the
administration of affairs,
which, notwithstanding a large expenditure for rebuilding St. John's, and
widening the streets, after the fire of 1846, left the debt of the
Province but a million, and urged that as a large consuming population, the
people of Newfoundland must be an immense accession to the
Union. He wished he had the power and eloquence of the Hon. Mr. Brown
when expatiating on this subject. (Hear, hear.) If that honourable gentleman
were on the floor of the House today, he would take larger, more
liberal, and more able views of this question than were taken by honourable
gentlemen usually following him. The Minister of Customs
having deprecated viewing this question from a practical point of view,
proceeded to take credit to the representatives of New
Brunswick for having to a man voted for the acquisition of the North-West
Territory. They did not stop to ask the question: What had
they in that North-West Territory to contribute to us? but though
not directly interested, they felt that the Dominion at
large would be benefitted, and cheerfully voted for this great land
purchase. As to the proposition now before the House, it only carried
out a portion of the same great scheme of Union. He hoped hon. gentlemen
from all sections would cheerfully support it.
Hon. Mr. Galt was strongly in favour of continuing the
work of Union and consolidation so happily begun on this
continent. The present terms offered by Newfoundland, should, he
urged, be accepted, as they were substantially those adopted by the Quebec
Conference, and subsequently by the Parliaments of Canada,
and New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, and they were terms not unreasonable or unjust
in any respect whatever. He took issue with the
member for West Durham in his proposition that the land ought to
be in the hands of the Local Governments. He believed the public
domain ought to be under the control of the Dominion. It ought to be at
the disposal of the only Legislature which could have a uniform policy
on emigration and settlement. The hon. gentleman argued, too, that if
the mineral lands were placed at the disposal of the Dominion they would
endeavour to extract from them their $150,000 a year, and
the industry of Newfoundland would be depressed. Precisely the contrary
result would in his (Mr. Galt's) opinion follow. If the
lands were left in the hands of the Local Government they had to depend on
them for the means of local administration. It was clear that no
liberal policy would be in their power, whereas it would be in the power
of the Dominion Parliament, to deal as liberally as it
pleased with them. Besides the
700
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869 hon. member for West Durham, in
arguing as he had done against this land purchase by the Government,
appeared to have altogether forgotten his vote the other night
with reference to the North-West Territory. There was a land purchase
in a country situated twice as far off as Newfoundland, and twenty times as
large. (Hear.) He entirely approved of the course of the Government in
following out the policy of the Quebec Conference.
Mr. Stirton objected to the doctrine that all who
endorsed the Quebec resolutions should always abide by them. Under what
circumstances were these resolutions adopted? Under the
statement that the resolutions must be adopted in their entirety or not at
all. But already the Government themselves had violated that
compact in London and subsequently, and it was absurd to endeavour
to force hon. gentlemen to cling to it, merely because it
suited the occupants of the Treasury Benches. He would vote for the
amendment, believing this land purchase to be one which the country
would not sustain. At the same time, he was not at all desirous to throw any
obstacle in the way of Newfoundland coming into the Union. He hoped to
see that Union speedily and satisfactorily completed.
Hon. Mr. McDougall considered that the amendment
proposed by his hon. friend was contrary in principle to the votes that
gentleman had heretofore given. He thought the hon.
gentleman who had last spoken was not acting consistently with his former
Union principles, because the terms to which he objected
were essentially the same as those for which he had formerly voted. If his
hon. friends opposite were really sincere in their professions of a
desire for Union they should not take objection to the terms agreed to by
the Quebec Conference. It was true that the lands of Newfoundland were
not so valuable as those of the Northwest territory, but if we were to
complete the work of Confederation such a consideration should have no
weight. He would ask the hon. member for Wellington South if the
principle he had laid down was ever followed in the County Council. The
opposite principle was almost invariably followed, and the more productive parts of
a county were called on to assist
in the development of the less productive parts. This principle should be applied
to the development of the Dominion if
we ever were to become a great and united Confederacy.
Hon. Mr. Anglin said that it was quite possible that in the Quebec Conference the resolution to give
the
£30,000 was adopted as a payment to the Province to carry on its local
affairs. As to the statement that it was proposed in London that
the Dominion should assume all the lands, he never heard of it before. It would
have been contrary to the understanding
generally arrived at, and it was well there had been no enactment. He had,
it was true, taken a different line in this debate from that used by
him in his speeches in New Brunswick, but this was owing to his not having accepted
the situation of the period alluded
to. Since he had occupied it these arguments had all been taken
out of his mouth.
Hon. Mr. Gray had understood the member for West Durham
to argue not that this sum of $150,000 should not be given to Newfoundland, but
that her public lands should not be taken as an
exchange. He (Mr. Gray) did not see how hon. members could justify themselves to
their constituents if they supported such a
proposition, and gave Newfoundland this exceptional privilege, not extended
to the other Provinces, of receiving so very large a sum without any
consideration. The resolution left it optional with Newfoundland to retain
her land. He would prefer that she would, but he would rather take her
with this encumbrance than leave her out of the Union.
Already there was a low murmuring of discontent at the departure
from the conditions of union proposed with reference to Nova Scotia,
and who could tell to what height that might grow, if $150,000 a year were
to be given to Newfoundland, without receiving the consideration which
was stipulated in the resolutions of the Quebec Conference.
Hon. Mr. Wood thought the important question
was this—what sum would be required by the Newfoundland Legislature to carry
on its local service? That sum being once ascertained,
Canada should freely give it. He thought it mean and unpatriotic to enter
into a very minute calculation of dollars and cents. He did not think
the amount estimated by the Minister of Finance was too large. He did not
expect that for some time the revenue we would receive from
Newfoundland would equal the expenditure we incurred on her behalf,
but by opening a new market to us, and by stimulating the industry of the
Island, and increasing its population, the Union would be indirectly
of great advantage to the Dominion. The only part of the scheme he
objected to was this—as to public lands, he would much prefer that
Newfoundland would keep her own lands, and with that view he would not
object to the special subsidy being made $185,000 instead of $35,000.
702
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869
Sir John A. Macdonald said if he believed Mr. Blake's
amendment carried out the views expressed by the hon. gentleman who had just
sat down he would almost be disposed to accept it, but he looked upon
it as intended to defeat the whole scheme for union with Newfoundland. The hon.
gentleman had himself stated that he moved it as an
amendment to the first resolution because, if carried, it would alter
entirely the basis of the arrangement. The hon. gentleman said he
would rather give the $150,000 and not take the lands, than give the
$150,000 and take the lands; but he took care not to place it in his
amendment, and if the amendment carried, and the Government proposed to
increase the subsidy by $150,000, there would be another amendment
declaring that any such proposition would be an injustice to the
other Provinces.
Mr. Blake said he did not have it in contemplation to move any other amendment, nor was he
aware that any hon.
gentlemen on his side had any such intention.
Sir John A. Macdonald was glad to hear that the hon.
gentleman was in favour of the $150,000, but there were others who entertained different
views. They had heard the member for
Wellington South declare that he was not now bound by the agreement of the
Quebec Conference. It was evident that in bringing forward this
amendment the member for West Durham had been put upon by others who
were not so sincere in bringing about the admission of Newfoundland on these
terms. Newfoundland was situated differently from the other provinces.
She had no internal resources; her wealth was mainly derived from
the sea; and when these resources failed them they had no agricultural
wealth to fall back upon like the other provinces. Therefore there was
in this respect a necessity for Newfoundland to have some definite
and certain source of revenue from her crown lands. If the lands
remained in the possession of Newfoundland they had not the means of
developing them; but if they were handed over to the Dominion
something could undoubtedly be made out of them. A Mr. Bennett owned a mile
square of land in the region of the copper mines and he had refused
£250,000 sterling for it, and there was positive evidence that at least
three other square miles were of equal value. Newfoundland
was not able to open up these lands, but the Dominion was in a different
position and was able to take means to ascertain what the wealth of
the land and minerals was. The Province it would be observed, retained the
power of determining within a year, whether it will relieve us of the
payment of this
$150,000 and keep its lands. He hoped they would. (Laughter).
Sir John A. Macdonald—If, however, the Dominion found
that the lands were not profitable, there was surely no reason why at
some future period they could not be returned to Newfoundland.
Mr. Blake—You cannot after, in the agreement
of Union, you assume their management.
Sir John A. Macdonald then argued there was the
consideration of national policy. Newfoundland possessed the key
to our front door. It might be considered chimerical, but he believed there was
something in the report of Mr. Sandford
Fleming in reference to the shortest highway between this continent and
Europe. He believed that the time would come, in our day, when the
route across Newfoundland would become the great highway of
passenger traffic. He would repeat that if his hon. friend really wished, as
he professed, to give the Crown lands to Newfoundland, and also the
$150,000, then he should move a distinct resolution to that
effect. The only effect of his present amendment was to disturb the
basis of the entire arrangement, and probably postpone the admission of
Newfoundland into the Dominion for an indefinite period.
After recess,
Sir John A. Macdonald intimated that the Government
would proceed this session with items 22 and 23, of the Bills respecting the
Supreme Court, the Illegal Solemnization of Marriage, and Proceedings
in Outlawry. These Bills would be sent to the Judges during recess for
their consideration.
NEWFOUNDLAND
Mr. Mackenzie resumed the debate on the Newfoundland
Resolutions. He said if he thought the amendment was susceptible of
the interpretation given to it by the Premier, he most certainly should not
vote for it. He was desirous of accomplishing the Union between Newfoundland and
the present Confederated Provinces on as
early a day, and on as just principles as possible. As a fruit of the
Union of the Province from the first he hoped to continue so to the last, and
although Newfoundland was one of the smaller, and from the nature of
her soil and her circum
704
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869 stances one of the poorer Colonies of
British America, she would meet with no ungenerous treatment at his
hands. But while he said this, he must resent the attempt on the part
of some hon. gentlemen to prevent a free discussion and
deliberation on the subject in this House. The Minister of Public Works has
attacked his hon. friend from Wellington South, because
that hon. gentleman held himself free from any obligations with reference to
this question in consequence of the course taken at the Quebec
Conference. He (Mr. Mackenzie,) endorsed the language of his hon.
friend from Wellington South, to its entire extent. The terms
proposed at the Quebec Conference not having been then accepted,
he considered that all parties were free to propose new
terms. The gentlemen who were now so ably representing Newfoundland had not
considered themselves bound by these terms, but had come here with
entirely new terms; and if so, why should any member of this House be
held bound by those terms. He had been amused to hear the Minister of Public
Works speak of the inconsistency of the member for
Wellington South. Nothing could be more grotesque than to hear the Minister
of Public Works lecturing any gentleman for his inconsistency. That
hon. gentleman had been found delivering opposition opinions on every
possible subject at various periods in his history. (Hear, hear.)
He regretted that the Minister of Customs should have imported
into the discussion matter wholly irrelevant to the motion before the
chair. He would not follow the hon. gentleman in his calculations as to
the Customs further than to say that his figures were utterly
incorrect. He was not surprised, however, that the Minister of Customs' reason should
have made the mistake, when last year he
made a mistake of nearly a million and a half on the probable proceeds
of the Customs. He supposed his calculations as to the approximate income
from Newfoundland would turn out about as correct as his
calculations as to the Customs last year. As regarded the motion before the
chair he could not conceive anything more inconsistent with
the duties and obligations of the Dominion Government than that it should
undertake the management of the public lands of Newfoundland. He could
not understand how the member for Sherbrooke (Hon. Mr. Galt) could
have ventured at the London Conference, as he told the House he did, to
urge that the Act of Union should assign to the Dominion the Crown
Lands of the various Provinces in violation of the terms of the Quebec
resolutions. He (Mr. Mackenzie) did not hesitate to say that if the Quebec
arrangement had been changed in that particular,
Ontario at all events would not have accepted the Act. The Premier and the
Minister of Public Works had taken ground to-night as to the position
we occupied with reference to conclusions arrived at by the Quebec Conference. The
Minister of Public Works said it would be an act
of gross bad faith if we should recede to any extent whatever from the
resolutions of that Conference. That ground might be tenable as applied to
an act already consummated; it would be an act of bad faith for any of
the Provinces to seek to alter any of the terms of Union between the
Provinces united by the British North American Act. For this
Parliament to take upon itself to abrogate any of the articles of Union
between the four Provinces established by- that Act would
be to be guilty of gross bad faith. It would be to assume duties never
designed to be committed by the Imperial Parliament to this House. But the
very thing which these hon. gentlemen were representing as a departure
from good faith by gentlemen on his (Mr. Mackenzie's) side of the House,
was now being attempted by those hon. gentlemen themselves
in its very worst possible aspect. On his side of the House, they only
proposed to void one of the conditions agreed to with reference to a Colony
which did not choose to accept the conditions then offered them; but
hon. gentlemen opposite proposed to change the conditions on which one of
the Provinces now had an existence as a member of this Confederation,
and that not only by the authority which created the Confederation, but by an Act
of this Parliament. (Hear.) It did not lie in the
mouth of hon. gentlemen, who proposed so extraordinary a measure as
that, to accuse the member for West Durham and those who supported him in
this matter, of being guilty of bad faith. (Hear.) Those hon.
gentlemen, when in London, had agreed to granting additional subsidies to
the Provinces, a matter which was not in the Quebec resolutions. They agreed to give
Ontario an additional subsidy at the
rate of 5 3/4 cents per head; Quebec 6c; Nova Scotia 10c, and New
Brunswick 19c per head; and now they asked the House to agree to another
departure from the scheme of the Quebec Conference, by giving an
additional subsidy to Newfoundland of 28c per head; and yet,
because hon. gentlemen on his side thought it would be better that the
Crown Lands of the Colony should be left in the hands of the Local
Authorities, they were accused of endeavouring to break up the
compact entered into at Quebec. Nothing could be more absurd. He was
quite willing to confer with the representatives of Newfoundland
in order to ascertain from them what was necessary for that
706
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869 purpose. He desired that the union
should be consummated on such terms, that the people of Newfoundland
should be in a position to work in amity with the rest of the Dominion,
and in a way conducive to their own prosperity. But he held
it to be derogatory to the position of this House that they should be
held in effect, that they were precluded from discussing what these terms of
union should be. The Minister of Public Works and the Premier said
they were surprised that the member for West Durham should object to
our acquiring the public lands of Newfoundland, after voting for
the acquisition of lands in the North West territory. There was no
analogy between the two cases. In the North West territory there were at
present no constituted authorities as there were in Newfoundland, and it would not
be pretended that after a
Government was established in the North West, we would administer its
lands from Ottawa. But if the Dominion assumed the public lands of
Newfoundland we would have a land office established here requiring a
special department for the purpose. At present these were
administered very economically. The Surveyor-General received £400
sterling, and the extra expense was $6,000. According to these resolutions
the Surveyor General and his staff would be under the control of one
of the Departments at Ottawa.
Mr. Mackenzie said he had already shown there was no
analogy between the two cases. Comparing the former management of the
Customs in New Brunswick, of the post office in Nova Scotia, and various
other branches, he found that everything which came under the
management of this Government was conducted on an extravagant
scale, and under any Government it would be impossible to
manage her public lands situated 2,000 miles away as efficiently and
economically as they could be managed on the spot. Some
stress has been laid on the value of the mineral lands, but could an
instance be shown where any Government had made money out of its
mineral lands? The Treasurer of Ontario had stated that in the fall of 1867
he thought money could be made by the Government out of the mineral
lands on Lake Superior, which were apparently far richer than those of
Newfoundland, but he had since found out his mistake. The
Ontario Government had found that in attempting to make money out of their
mineral lands they only succeeded in preventing miners from
going in, and so it would be
in the case of Newfoundland. The conclusion, therefore, was inevitable, that
it would be a wrong policy on the part of the Dominion to seek to
acquire these lands. He was prepared to give whatever sum was necessary, on
a fair calculation, to carry on the Local Government of the Island;
but he was not prepared to assume the responsibility of these lands in
order to give a premium to Newfoundland. It might be carried in spite of
these protestations, but hon. gentlemen had no right to
charge them, as the Premier had done, With endeavouring to prevent the
union, because they did not choose to give up their own opinions on
the matter.
Mr. Mackenzie said that in 1865 the leader of the
Government brought down the scheme representing it as in the nature of a
treaty, which must be accepted in its entirety or set aside. There
were various parts of it which he did not like; but, on account of these
representations he felt bound to support it as a whole.
But now this matter came up as a substantial proposition, and he considered
the House was at liberty to deal with it as it chose. He repeated that
he was willing to assume the responsibility of giving whatever money
was necessary, but he did not wish to assume the responsibility of taking
the lands. He did not anticipate that the revenue would be so great as
had been represented by the Minister of Finance. But he was willing to set
aside all considerations except one. that this was a British Colony
which it was desirable to incorporate into our Union, and with that
view he was willing to agree to any reasonable terms. He desired,
however, that these terms should be subjected to deliberate examination and discussion
in this House, and that they should be
so satisfactory to both parties, that no difficulties should hereafter arise
similar to those which had arisen with reference to Nova
Scotia. (Hear, hear.)
Sir John A. Macdonald said when he spoke of the
arrangements at the Quebec Conference, he alluded to the Provinces
of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick. It was not so with
reference to Newfoundland. The delegates from that Colony, not
being charged with the power of entering into such a treaty, guarded
themselves against incurring any such obligations, but they arranged that
when Newfoundland chose to enter the Union, she should do so on
certain terms.
708 COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869
Hon. Mr. Holton—That distinction was never brought to
the notice of the Canadian Parliament during the debate on Confederation extending
over several weeks.
Sir John A. Macdonald thought the hon. gentleman was
mistaken. Newfoundland, as regarded the resolutions of the Quebec Conference, was
on the same footing as British Columbia at the
Union in 1865, the New Brunswick Government having been defeated on
the question, and the feeling being against it in Nova Scotia, the
Newfoundland Government did not choose to submit Confederation
to the people. Now, however, when they saw that Confederation was a
fact, they came proposing to enter the Union on the terms of the
Quebec Conference, one of which was that the Dominion should pay
$150,000 to get the public lands in return. If this were refused they
would go back with a charge against us of bad faith, and tell their people
that we would not abide by the terms of the Quebec Conference, and
then negotiation would fall through.
Hon. Mr. Holton said this was the first time they had
heard from the Minister of Justice the statement that the Quebec resolutions
were not as binding in the nature of a treaty on Newfoundland as on
any of the other Provinces, and they heard it now simply because
the arguments in support of the amendment were unanswerable.
Sir John A. Macdonald read one of the Quebec
resolutions to show that Newfoundland was looked upon as occupying a
position different from that of the other Provinces.
Hon. Mr. Holton said the scheme of Confederation had been rejected by Newfoundland at the election
in
1865, yet it was now proposed again to submit it to the people and
thus defeat what had been declared unconstitutional as regards the
other Provinces. The Minister of Justice had alluded to the course
taken by the member for West Durham to moving this amendment, as if he were
unwillingly playing into the hands of those who had
opposed Confederation. This allusion made it necessary for him (Mr. Holton)
to say, with reference to Confederation, that he had not been opposed
to the Union of these Colonies on federal principles, but had opposed
the scheme as immature; and many difficulties which had occurred in working
it had shown the validity of the objections he had taken to it on that
ground. Confederation, however, was carried. The Union of Colonies was the
policy of the Empire, and he had yielded to
the logic of events, and endeavoured in every way to promote the completion
and prosperity of the Union. Carrying out that principle, he would
cheerfully assist in having Newfoundland brought into the Union.
He denied however, that we were bound by the terms of the
Quebec Conference, and he denied that it was a wise policy to assume the
responsibility of the public lands of Newfoundland.
Sir John A. Macdonald explained, in reply to some
remarks of the previous speaker, that the three Provinces of Canada, New
Brunswick, and Nova Scotia originally met for the purpose
of making a treaty. The Provinces of Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island
sent delegates simply as spectators—not for the purpose of entering
into a definite compact. The other three Provinces, however, made a
solemn treaty, as he had stated, with the Canadian Parliament, after the
Conference at Quebec. He was not sure whether Prince Edward Island was
in the same position as the other Provinces, but he was certain that
the delegates of Newfoundland did not con- der themselves a
party to the treaty. It was simply agreed that whenever they choose to
come in, they should do so on certain terms. In 1865 there was a disposition
in the island to submit the Quebec resolutions at the polls, but the
hostility to Union in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia created the impression
that the measure would not be accepted by British North America. Now,
however, it was felt that the difficulties in the way of the Confederation were
rapidly disappearing, and that it was their
duty and interest to form a part of the Dominion. Under the circumstances he regretted
to hear the arguments he had heard
advanced from the opposite side.
Hon. Mr. Rose said in reality the honourable gentleman
opposite admitted the desirability of having Newfoundland in the Union, and
there was no cavilling at the terms proposed, except in Newfoundland,
as a separate Colony had something to say in the bargain,
and what she had said through her Legislature and delegation was this, that
she would enter Confederation on the terms of the Quebec resolutions.
Hon. Mr. Rose said that was the case; but
the difference was very slight. Being agreed that the terms are not
unreasonable, why cavil at these small details. To show the value of
Newfoundland to the Confederation, and
710
COMMONS DEBATES
June 10, 1869the importance of acquiring it, the hon.
gentleman quoted largely from the remarks of the Hon.
George Brown and Mr. Mackenzie during the Confederation debates.
Mr. Mills regretted that the $150,000 a year was to be
paid for the land of this Island. Even if this item were concurred in, what
guarantee was there that a further demand would not be made next year
in lieu of the share of Newfoundland in the Intercolonial Railway and
other great public works of the Dominion, from which she derived no direct
benefit? It was fair, of course, that she should get means to enable
her to carry on her own local Government efiîciently, but there was no
necessity for giving her an extravagant amount. For his own part he was most
anxious to have Newfoundland enter the Dominion, but was also anxious
that she should do so on equitable terms. Let her control her own
territory, and develop it to the best of her own ability. It was for this he
contended.
Mr. D. A. Macdonald said he had not voted for the
$150,000 when the matter came before the Parliament of Canada, or he would
be bound to vote for it on this occasion. The hon. gentleman had
quoted Confederation speeches to show the value of Newfoundland to us and
the great necessity existing for its acquisition. But for
his part he defied any one to show him one word of truth in those speeches.
(Order, order.) At all events the brilliant future drawn out for the
country under Confederation was anything but realized or in
course of realization. As to the land of Newfoundland, the true
course would be to leave it with the Colony and give them the $150,000 if necessary.
Hon. Mr. Dunkin said that under the present
circumstances the House was bound to carry out the pledge they had given to
Newfoundland in the scheme of Union. Having once put our
hands to the plough we could not look back now, and it was our duty and
interest to work out the Union as rapidly as possible. This
confederacy was incomplete without Newfoundland and Prince Edward
Island, and we should offer them the best terms we could. We were bound to
give them what was necessary to enable them to carry on there local
operations, and he would say in all frankness that he did not consider the
terms now offered, too extravagant. He thought though it was not
necessary to hold the lands, yet the time would probably come when the
colony would gladly take them back. He was of opinion that the lands were
so much life to the Local Governments; but
at
present Newfoundland was in an exceptional position, and should
therefore be treated accordingly to her peculiar wants. He did
not think that the Dominion was running any risk in trying the
experiment, for the present at all events.
Mr. Scatcherd said that he believed it was now
necessary to carry out this Confederation faithfully, and not to consider
matters in a niggard spirit. He considered it his duty, as a
representative of the people, to vote for the resolutions, though he had, on
a previous occasion, taken a position hostile to the Union. He was
more hopeful that night of the future of the Confederation than he had ever
been before.
Mr. T. R. Ferguson was more hopeful tonight
than he had ever been on the subject of Confederation. He was glad to find
hon. gentlemen on all sides agreed as to the necessity for
completing this other link in the scheme of Confederation, the only
objection offered being to land terms, and those objecting
to this $150,000 a year, what was their cause? A most extraordinary one. It
seemed to him they scrupled to give this amount and take the land, but
offered to give $150,000 and give back the land at the same time. This
was a specimen of the economy these hon. gentlemen wanted to practice. It
was a pity their old leader, the Hon. Mr. Brown, was not as had been
said on the floor often, to keep his followers in order. (Hear.) He
would vote against the amendment.
The House then divided on the amendment,
which was lost; yeas 48, nays 94.
Hon. Mr. Wood, seconded by
Hon. Mr. Anglin moved a very lengthy amendment,
affirming among other things that Newfoundland
should retain all her Crown lands and receive a total of $185,000, in
addition to the 80c per head for local purposes.
Mr. Mackenzie said the amendment was too comprehensive
by half. It contained in reality several resolutions.
Mr. Blake agreed with the Minister of Justice.
The motion was ruled out of order.
The resolution and the two following were
then carried.
The 4th resolution provided that in consideration of the transfer to the General Par
712
COMMONS DEBATES June 10, 1869 liament of the power of taxation, the sum of
$35,000, and an annual grant, equal to 80c per
head of the population shall be paid by the
Dominion to Newfoundland for the support
of its Government and Legislature, the grant
of 80 cents per head to be augmented in proportion to the increase of population up
to
400,000.
Mr. Mackenzie strongly objected to the grant of $35,000
as a departure from the principles adopted by the Quebec Conference,
and a breach of faith with the public.
It was then carried on a division.
The 5th resolution was carried.
On the 6th, which provided that before
entering the Union, Newfoundland might reserve to itself all the lands and rights
conveyed to the General Government, and that
in that care Canada shall be relieved of the
$150,000 payment.
Hon. Mr. Wood moved in amendment that the resolution be
referred back to amend it by providing that the land therein mentioned
should be given to Newfoundland.
The Speaker ruled the amendment out of order as the
question it raised had already been decided in Mr. Blake's amendment,
The 6th and 7th resolutions were carried.
On the 8th
Mr. Le Vesconte moved that the resolution be
referred back in order to strike out the words "As well as the present duty
on coal entering the said harbour," and also the words "Such duties on
coal." His object was to prevent the imposition of a duty on coal.
Mr. Le Vesconte spoke against the resolution.
Suppose it were necessary to make a large expenditure for improving the
harbours in Newfoundland or any of the Provinces the dominant Province
of Ontario might choose to impose a certain duty on some articles coming
into these ports, while enacting at the same time that flour and other
articles sent from Ontario, be exempt from duty.
Mr. Killam said that the present duty on coal was, in
his opinion, a Customs duty. Even if it were not, what right had the
Government of Newfoundland to impose an exceptional tax on one
particular article, and not on another.
Mr. Blake argued that the imposition in this case was
not in substance or form a harbour duty, and therefore did not come within
the provisions of the British North American Act.
Sir John A. Macdonald could not see that this was any
offence against the British North America Act; if we thought, as a Dominion
Parliament, that the toll which was the security to this Company
should be wiped away, and that they should be paid out of our own
pockets, that would be a fair proposition.
Lost on a division, yeas 47, nays 91.
This, and remaining resolutions passed, and
an address founded thereon was introduced,
passed, and ordered to be sent to the Senate.
This individual participated in:
