Legislative Assemblies of Alberta and Saskatchewan, 13 September 1898, Alberta and Saskatchewan Debates over Confederation with Canada.



The Territories Have a Greatly Increased Revenue for 1898.

Details of the Supplementary Estimates-Brief Summary of Mr. Haultain's Budget Statement, and an Indication of the Trend of the Debate—There is Need for all of the Increased Revenue, and the Future, When Only the Ordinary Revenue Can be Expected, is a Subject for Serious Consideration.
TUESDAY, Sept. 13, 1898.
When the sitting was resumed at 2:30 Mr. Haultain took up the Yukon question,­ making an extended statement of the Territorial position and the course of the Government in its relation. A new point brought out was that under the Act the Assembly is not empowered to frame regulations or pass Ordinances respecting the liquor permits. The duty devolves upon the Lt.-Governor, which means the Lt.-Governor by and with the advice of the Executive Council. Mr. Haultain combatted the contention that the permit clauses of the Act could absolutely or reasonably be held to contemplate a prohibitive system. As to the satisfactory financial results of the Government's policy there could be no question. From that point of view there could be just as little question of the success of the expedition sent out. Apart altogether from the receipts from whole­ sale permits, amounting to $122,000, the expedition itself had resulted in the col. lection of $28,000 for retailing permits at Dawson. After explaining items relating to the Imperial Institute and the expenses of entertainment of certain pressmen visiting the Territories, Mr. Haultain explained an additional estimate of $60,000 asked to cover the carrying on of the public business after the beginning of the new year until such time as the new House should meet. Of this amount $40,000 would go in January in school grants, and the balance remaining was only $20,000 to sustain the public service to probably some date in February. In this estimate they were following the practice adopted in the provinces. Having completed his explanations of the estimates, Mr. Haultain proceeded to say that a very significant feature in connection with the extraordinary amount of these supplementaries was the fact that the need of them appeared without going outside of the fyles of the offices. There were few new departures, and the needs of the old and ordinary services were no more than met by the extraordinary and unusual increase in the revenue amounting to about $162,000. The only conclusion was that ordinary revenue was now totally inadequate; and in face of the fact that they could not with any reasonable expectation look to Parliament to increase the grant to the extent of this year's increases from other sources, the question arose, What were they to do? The needs would not grow less. They were brought to the point which he had discussed last year. Our present state was in many ways very suitable to our conditions,—was suitable in every way except that it did not yield enough money. If the financial question was capable of other solution he would be satisfied to remain as at present. The only thing there seemed to be to do was to think at least of negotiating for provincial establishment. He felt convinced that it would be the principal work of the new Legislature before the end of its four year's term to enter into such negotiations. With the greater develop ment that now seems assured the needs in respect of schools and improvements would certainly develop. Qutside of direct taxation there seemed no possibility of a solution except by provincial establishment—not perhaps to-day or next year, but in the reasonably near future. Mr. Haultain pointed out some of the expenditures now made by the Dominion which when we become a province will have to be borne locally, by way of emphasizing the fact that the negotiations would not be one-sided. Nevertheless he had no deubt that under any reasonable terms of settlement the subsidy received would be greater than the grant now voted by Parliament. He indicated that this Government would demand the cession to the Territories of all lands, minerals, etc., as have the original rovinces - entering Confederation, and would base the claim upon a legal and constitutional right, —a right which he inferred might be prosecuted before the highest tribunal in the realm if necessary. Be indicated also his firm belief that when the time for erection came there should be only one province erected. Mr. Haultain then referred to the charge that the Government had no policy. He thought there was no lack of policy even in the Supplementary Estimates. It seemed to him that in every item there cropped up a policy distinct and well defined. They had a policy in respect of civil government, the development of the public service, well organized and efficient departments, practical and economical machinery. There was a policy connected with the Normal school item—connected with their School policy, to give to every child a good, plain, practical education—,  to give it to all children associated to­ gether without regard to race, religion or position. He thought their school policy had been attended with remarkable success, in that the animosities arising from certain difficult and delicate questions in other portions of Canada had be avoided here without any less practical or satisfactory results. To-day the Territorial school system was, if not in name, in reality a National school system. They had a policy for the training of teachers, which had already resulted so well that the Territories are practically independent as re­ garded the supply of teachers, with the supply of higher grade teachers exceeding the demand. They had a policy in respect of coal mines, to look after the protection of lives and meet the necessities of actual conditions,—a distinct and plain policy in respect of public works,— opening main highways, dealing with sur-  veys, making bridges, testing for water,  etc., etc.;-a policy, new, it was true,  and small as yet, respecting agriculture,  in keeping with the traditions of the Territories, beginning moderately and developing along with conditions, a policy proportionate to the resources, a policy calculated to encourage the chief and most important industries, the foundation of all  possible prosperity in the Territories.  They had a policy regarding hospitals and  charities, a policy to give all possible aid  to those most desirable, admirable and  beneficent institutions, and a policy to  avoid the greation of those other institutions which are features, and necessarily  so, of all older countries, but which are  not yet necessary with the comparatively young and able-bodied population of  the west, and the erection of which might  tend as an invitation to those unfortunate  helpless classes who are fortunately not  yet found here in any considerable numbers. They had had a decided and successful policy in relation to the Yukon.  They had grappled with the difficulties of  that situation which to judge from some  of the criticisms were very dangerous.  For policy he could further point to the  statutes. Every page of the statutes bore  evidence of what had been and was the  policy of the Government and no less of  the Assembly. They had a policy on the  question of introducing Dominion political lines, clear and distinct as was all  other portions of their general policy.  The only suggestion of deficiency that any  of the critics had ever attempted to make  was in regard to immigration. The Government's policy as regarded immigration  had not in view the fitting out of  agents to scour the by-ways and compel people to come to the Territories. If  they wished to do so, they could not, as  among the powers allotted to the Assembly the power of dealing with immigration was not included. But they had a  solid policy, which was to try and meet  the needs of the people who are here and  who are coming, to supply good roads and  necessary bridges, schools; by providing  economical yet thoroughly efficient admin  istration of all the laws. They passed laws  not because like laws had been passed in  Ontario or anywhere else, but to suit the  peculiar and particular needs of the conditions here and the circumstances of the  country. He believed that was the best  immigration policy for this Assembly to  follow, to make this a desirable country  to come to, a country with harmonious  communities, a satisfactory state of so-  ciety, good roads and safe bridges, efficient schools, good institutions of all  necessary kinds, and a country free from  debt and practically free from taxation.  That was as good an immigration policy  as could be devised, considering the resources of this Assembly, for years to  come. He hoped that the Estimates  would meet the approval of the House and  if passed meet the idea of helping out all  interests and maintain adequately the  public service of the Territories. (Prolonged applause.) 


Dr. Patrick, seconded by Mr. Page, moved: Whereas it is expedient that the boundary lines between the NorthWest Territories and the other provinces and territories should be finally determined at an early date; and whereas this Legislature denies the right of the Parliament of Canada to increase or diminish or otherwise alter the limits of the North-West Territories, without its consent, because it claims for the people it represents equal rights with the people of the Provinces in this respect; and whereas, certain areas now comprised within the North-West Territories more properly belong to other Provinces or Territories, and should therefore be separated from the North-West Territories; therefore be it resolved that this Legislature doth consent to such alteration of the limits of the North-West Territories as will separate therefrom those areas lying north of the northern boundaries of the Provinces of British Columbia and Manitoba respectively.
Dr. Patrick said the resolution was not designed to deal with the internal but with the external relations of the Territories—not with the relations of one part of the Territories with the other parts, but with our relations as affecting the province to the east and the province to the west. The resolution was not intended to bear at all upon the right of Parliament to establish a province or provinces in the Territories. By Section 2 of the B.N.A. Act Parliament's power and right to erect a province or provinces were clear and distinct. Neither was the resolution directed in any sense to the action of Parliament in separating the Yukon territory from the North-West Territories. But the question of the right of Parliament to place a part of an existing province or territory into another province was another thing. The resolution was declaratory of the expediency of determining the boundaries of the North-West Territories for certain reasons. Dr. Patrick referred to a resolution passed by the Assembly in 1897 respecting what was termed the integrity of the Territories. At that time the Assembly perhaps lost sight of the fact that there were portions of the Territories which were north of the provinces of Manitoba and British Columbia, and which more properly and reasonably belonged to and could be governed by the governments of those provinces. In 1876 and again in 1881 Manitoba had made claim for the territory lying north of that province. It was perhaps scarcely right for the Assembly to lay claim to all that territory without admitting the right of Manitoba to the portion lying on its north. If the right of the North-West to its hinterland was just, then Manitoba and British Columbia could reasonably lay claim to the portions of territory which were north of those respective provinces. The claim made by the Assembly last year would stand in the way of Manitoba's just claim. It would seem to be perfectly reasonable for Manitoba to claim the territory north of its present bounds. The province is aiding a railway towards Hudson's Bay, which will extend into the territory north of the province. Along that railway there would be settlement, and before settlement takes place it would be well that the people going in should know to what province they were going to belong. It therefore seemed expedient that the boundaries should be determined at an early date. Then came the question, who has the right to determine the boundaries? The precedent of the former Manitoba extension would be cited, and it might be held that what was done once could well be done again. By a statement made at this session by the Commissioner of Public Works (Mr. Ross) it would appear that the Dominion Government is under the impression that the Territories may be chopped and carved by order in council. They had proposed to secure power from Parliament to separate portions of the Territories from time to time by order in council. A general impression was abroad that the country was threatened with division. He found that one only needed to scratch an ordinary Manitoban to find a Territorial annexationist, and believed that some Manitobans had a somewhat definite idea that all the territory lying east of a line as far west as Moose Jaw should be added to Manitoba. Dr. Patrick then proceeded to discuss the clause in the Confederation Act dealing with the power of Parliament to "alter, diminish or extend" provinces. His conclusion as to the meaning of the section was that it was intended that the power should only be exercised upon, by and with the agreement and consent of the people of the provinces affected. A further conclusion was that the section was only intended to be operated in relation to provinces, —that was to say, the section could be given practical operation if all the territory of the Dominion was erected into provinces, and then changes could only be brought about with the mutual consent of all parties interested. He said it certainly was never the intention that one local government should have its jurisdiction extended over the people outside its domain without the consent of those people. The N.W.T. had had a legislature, in many respects provincial in character, for many years. This year the fourth Assembly would be elected. The powers conferred upon the Assembly were conferred by Parliament, but because Parliament had the power to confer it did not follow that it had a right to withdraw. The powers possessed by Parliament were conferred by the Imperial Legislature. It was doubtless true that the Imperial Legislature could revoke the powers conferred upon Parliament, but did any one think the Imperial authorities could make practical use of their power of revokation? He would draw sharp distinction between the terms "power" and "right." The wretch who murdered the Empress of Austria proved his power to kill, but did that prove his right to take life? He would deny the right of Parliament to sharpen its stiletto to cut and carve the body politic of the Territories. (Applause.) Once the people of England had believed that the Briton abroad had lesser rights than the Briton at home, and history records the incident of the Boston tea party, and the encounter at Bunker Hill where Greek met Greek and the inferiority failed to be established. There had been once a legislature in Ireland, with sovereignty quite as limited as that of this Assembly relatively; and while he would not go into the ways and means by which the consent was obtained, he would point to the fact that the existence of that Irish legislature did not end until its own consent was obtained, which showed that its consent was necessary to the ending of it. This House for instance has conferred powers upon the City of Calgary. Would anyone contend that after consenting to and in a way assisting in the establishment of the institutions of the City of Calgary, this House has the right to revoke the powers conferred, without cause, reason or consent? The main principle of the preamble of the B.N.A. Act was based upon consent—those provinces which consented were included in con federation, while the provinces which failed to consent were not included. In that Act it was cited that upon the Dominion was conferred a constitution similar in principle to the British constitution. The practice of the Imperial Parliament in respect of the alteration of the bounds of self-governing or Crown colonies was, to be guided by the desires of the colonies. By an Act passed in 1895 the consent of the people of the colonies is necessary to any alteration of bounds. Canada has a constitution similar to the British, and the measure meted by the Imperial legislature to Parliament should be meted by Parliament to this Assembly; if less was meted a grievance would be created which the people of the Territories would have a right to lay at the foot of the Throne. But it was not necessary to go far afield for precedents. Such could be found in Canadian history. When Canada purchased the right of the Hudson's Bay Company, it was forgotten that the inhabitants of the territory were entitled to a voice in their disposition and it was a historical fact that one Wandering Willie Macdougall was sent out to govern those inhabitants but was not allowed to come in and govern. He was not going to applaud the acts of the people who resisted authority but the fact was recorded that an envoy extraordinary was sent from Ottawa to consult the wishes of the inhabitants, —sent out with full discretionary powers to treat with them. And delegates selected by the self constituted council of those inhabitants were invited to go to Ottawa, whose views were accepted and embodied in the Manitoba Act of 1871. At a later date—in 1881—when the Manitoba boundaries were extended, the extension was made with the desire not only of the people of the province but also of the people who were taken into the province, as the words of Sir John Macdonald when the extension was discussed in Parliament show. Proceeding, Dr. Patrick held that the people of the Territories have certain acquired rights. When men settled in the Territories they cannot be presumed to have expected that they might be later on made to bear the yoke and the debt of Manitoba —to assume the burden of the mistakes made by a legislature in which they had no representation. Territorial citizens have inherently all the rights of the citizens of the provinces of Canada and of British subjects. A man coming here from one of the provinces forfeits no right by coming, although in the Territories he consents that certain of his rights shall be held in abeyance. There was every ground to deny the right of Parliament to alter the boundaries so far as related to any other province without obtaining the consent of the people of the Territories. This statement did not affect the right of Parliament to erect a province or provinces in the Territories. The doctor prophesied that the next few years of the Assembly would be history making years. In considering the question they should keep in sight the fact that there was a court of final resort, and they might expect that the spirit of the British constitution would be observed. In taking a stand for fairness, they should be prepared to deal fairly. He thought it would be impolitic to claim all the present territory; to do so would give a handle against them. They should claim no more than they had a good moral claim to. By claiming only their rights they would strengthen their position. By exercising their right to consent to a certain diminution, their position would be made stronger. He was confident that the House would pass the motion in favor of the final determining of our relations, not with each other, but with those on each side of us. (Applause.)
Mr. Page spoke from the immediately practical point of view of the people of the Territories who reside near Manitoba. He knew that many people were deliberately moving from Manitoba into the Territories, rather than to the newer portions of the province such as Dauphin, for the express purpose of escaping the burden of taxation imposed in that province, and to take advantage of the simpler and cheaper government in the Territories. He referred to imperial treatment of colonists. The people in the African hinterland were being allowed to make their own arrangements and bargains. The same remark applied to Australia. The Dominion ought to leave the people of the Territories to complete their own consolidation. Parliament might well follow the maxim "Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you," and deal with the Assembly of the Territories as the Imperial Parliament dealt with it.
Mr. Eakin spoke as the representative of a district bordering for a length of 120 miles upon Manitoba. His constituents were therefore interested in the question. He did not wish to refer particularly to Manitoba, but said there did appear to be an impression that because this territory was acquired by purchase by the Dominion, Parliament had the right to diminish or annex it at pleasure. The resolution of the member for Yorkton was generous. It proposed to give to Manitoba what she had a right to. Mr. Eakin held that the people of East Assiniboia had rights and he would hold firmly to the contention that their consent was necessary in a disposition so vitally affecting them. He was confident, however, that they were not like the people of Red Deer; they were law abiding, and would seek in a constitutional way to have their rights recognised. Mr. Eakin quoted Hon. Mr. Gerard in support of Dr. Patrick's contention that before the bounds of Manitoba were extended in 1881, the people taken in had expressed a desire to be annexed. The argument might be used that North-East Assiniboia and Manitoba had identical interests; that their products went east through Manitoba and their supplies came west through Manitoba That was true. Winnipeg, the Manitoba capital, was the gateway and door. But while they were proud of Winnipeg, there were reasons which caused them to hesitate about throwing in their lot with Manitoba. He thought that when the time came for the Territories to seek enlarged powers and a changed constitution, —when that time came it would be early enough to consider the question. He hoped that when it had to be considered, it would be considered as it deserved and that no sectional view would dominate, but that a broad view would be taken to lead to prosperity and development, and for the security and protection of the best interests of the country. For the present at least he was opposed to the idea of annexation.
Mr. Brown looked upon the subject as one of great interest. Parliament's power to carve our territory we admit, but as British subjects we claim the right to be treated as such. He said that the people of the Territories have established a system of government peculiar in Canada; they had followed a course different from the course followed in any of the provinces. Undoubtedly provincial status could have been obtained years ago, but benefitting by the experience of the provinces they had chosen the wiser course of having simple, efficient and inexpensive government. The boundaries might have been settled years ago, but because a different course had been followed was no reason why advantage should now be taken by Parliament to change the bound aries. The root of the question was: Did Manitoba want a portion of our territory for our benefit, or for her own benefit? What Manitoba asks is to get our people to share with her the burden of the mistakes made by her legislature. It is only a few years ago that Manitoba disdained the Territories. The people of the province were wont to say that their bounds enclosed all the good territory in the west. As far as the argument about area was concerned, it could be pointed out that in area Manitoba is already the fourth province in Canada, and probably contained as much fertile land as any of the provinces, excepting the Territories. If the maritime provinces can get along with much less areas, then Manitoba should not be in a bad position. But the matter of taxation was at the bottom of Manitoba's desire to get a portion of the Assiniboias. Manitoba on one side of us has a debt of $5,000,000, and British Columbia on the other side a debt of $12,000,000. Of debt and taxation the Territories have none. Our people profited nothing by the expenditures which created Manitoba's burden and should not be legislated into a position of having to share it.
Mr. Haultain was sure the members would be glad to hear the unanimous expression of opinion on the question. Last year the House was equally unanimous in a protest made against the withdrawal of any portion of the Territories to add to Manitoba. The House had already stated definitely its opinion on the question. Mr. Haultain said he was interested in Dr. Patrick's arguments that afternoon, although he could possibly not go all the length in some of his analogies. The Territories were in a different position from the colonies or Ireland, and as regarded the material point of action, our position in relation to Parliament was entirely different from the relation existing between Ireland and the Empire. As had been said we were a colony within a colony, but in the most essential attributes our relation to Parliament differed from the relation of colonies to the Imperial authority. The Territories were added to the Dominion under a provision in the B. N.A. Act, contemplating the admission of Territories into the union. Subsequently the powers of Parliament in relation to such territory were definitely fixed. He had heard it argued—and would repeat the argument without giving any opinion of his own—that Parliament did not possess power to add territory to a province,—but Parliament had exercised such power by adding territory to Manitoba in 1881. Mr. Haultain analysed the section of the Act conferring power upon Parliament in respect of altering the boundaries of two provinces. Proceeding he discussed the terms "power" and "right," pointing out that in one sense power means right. He failed to see how there could be any difference of opinion, in face of the very plain terms of the Imperial Act, as to the power of Parliament over the area and boundaries of the Territories. He was willing to go the full extent as far as concerned the expediency, the morality, or the justice of the claim of the Territories, but he could not go one inch in the direction of saying that Parliament did not possess the right, because Parliament's right was plainly expressed by the Imperial statute. He would go as far as anyone in objecting to any diminution of the Territories—excepting the areas mentioned in the resolution, but he could not join in a statement denying a legal fact. He quite agreed with the line of argument taken against annexation, and was entirely in sympathy with the people who feared they might be pitchforked into another province. He was prepared if the question became a practical one to assist in doing all that could be done to prevent the injustice. But he was not prepared to accept all of the recitals of the resolution. He did not criticise it hostilely, but in a friendly way. He thought they should get more directly at the point. Tha resolution was not conclusive. What they wanted to say was that they would resent any interference with the limits of the Territories. He was disposed to think that their offering to consent to a certain diminution of area would be of not much use. He wanted the resolution made more point blank—more definite. In dealing with a point of such vital interest it was important that any resolution should have the unanimous support of the House. Continuing Mr. Haultain said the need of the whoel motion did not seem to be very pressing at this time. IF the House did not protest, they were still erecting barriers by their daily work. As our school system and other institutions enlarge, day by day there is less possibility of our being carved up. We are daily creating a political entity and unity. The longer we go on undisturbed, the less possibility there is of breaking through. Quietly erecting these fortifications would see to be the best and most effective way of resisting any threatened attack. The analogies drawn even to-day of similar dealings in other parts of the world showed that questiosn of feasibility and justice were a greater determining factor than the questions of symmetry on the map. A redistribution of the map of Europe might lead to improvement in artistic beauty, but it was found that deeper and more important questions governed the boundaries of countries and provinces. For ten years Territorial institutions have been growing and developing. To cut up and destroy the equiliing.To cut up and destroy the equili brium of our institutions and all the machinery of government was every day becoming a more serious and forbidding undertaking. Our strongest course was to keep on as we have been going.To reach a unanimous conclusion on the resolution Mr.Haultain suggested to move the House into Committee of the Whole.
Dr. Patrick agreed, and later in the day this course was followed.
In committee the resolution was amended by inserting the words "except as hereinafter mentioned" in the second clause between the words "Territories" and "without;" and the following was substituted for the last clause:—
"Therefore be it resolved that while consenting to such alteration of the limits of the N.W.T. as will separate therefrom those areas lying north of the northern boundaries of the Provinces of British Columbia and Manitoba respectively, this Legislature is firmly of opinion that the political unity of the Territories should not be disturbed."
The resolution as amended was reported, and read the first time



The Present is a Year of Financial Jubilee by Reason of Large Revenues Coming From an Unexpected Source—In Future Years the Revenues Will Fall to the Old Figures, Small Enough Before, and Totally Inadequate Now—The School System and Other Institutions Whose Growth Means Outlay, Advancing by Leaps and Bounds—The Only Remedy is Provincial Establishment if Parliament Fails to Very Largely Increase the Territorial Grant.
Mr. HAULTAIN in moving the House into Committee of Supply on Tuesday, 13th Sept., 1898, stated at the outset that every item of the Supplementary Estimates which the House was asked to vote would be found to be of a purely practical nature. Besides the supplementaries for the year 1898, there was an Estimate of $60 000 for 1899 to provide for carrying on the public business until the time that the House would be called to meet in that year, that was to say after the end of the present financial year. The reason for the policy of asking this $60,000 vote he would explain later.
The House would recollect that last year Supply was voted for 16 months instead of for an ordinary year. This course was adopted for several reasons. Up to the present the Territorial financial year has ended on 31st August, and under the old system followed by Parliament in the voting of the North-West grants which compelled the Assembly to hold its sessions in the summer or fall, that date was the most expedient. Now, however, the Assembly grant fro Parliament is paid half-yearly as a subsidy, which enabled the Assembly to alter their financial year and make it coterminous with the calender year, which would be more convenient from many points of view. The reasons for the change were fully discussed last year and he would not repeat them. It had been foreshadowed last year that the House at this session would be asked to vote certain supplementary items—for expenses of this session, to provide for the expenses of the general election, and to provide the grants to agricultural societies. They had estimated for supplementaries for these purposes to amount in round numbers to $40,000. The amount now asked far exceeded that amount, and he would try to justify the excess. The total revenue arising from all sources from 1st Sept., 1897, to 31st August, 1898, amounted to $542,772.11. At the 1897 session the House appropriated $372,510.82, having then in view an additional $40,000 to be voted as supplementaries this year as he had explained. However the actual balance between the amount voted last year and the total amount of the revenue was $170,261.29. The House was now asked to vote $163,925.24 instead of $40,000, and even then there would be left in the bank a sum exceeding $6,000 to go to swell the revenues of 1899, and this calculation did not include a sum of $28,000 collected for retaining permits in Yukon which also would go to the amount to be voted by the new Legislature for the services of 1899. So he could say at once that while they asked an extraordinary amount for supplementaries they were not overstepping the limits, and were not entrenching a single dollar on the amount properly belonging to the new Legislature. Besides the $6,000 balance, and the amount to come from Yukon, there would be several small unexpended balances to go to the fund for next year. It was thought that as the present Legislature ends within the present year and this was the last session, the Supply for 1899 would more properly come within the jurisdiction and work of a new House. There had been a very large temptation to do as was always done elsewhere, and as would be done here if this had not been the last session of an expiring legislature, namely, vote the Supply for the succeeding year. The Government could have brought down really magnificent estimates, adding next year's supply and this year's supplementaries together,—an amount between $500,000 and $600,000. That would have made a splendid showing in one sense, gratifying to the House and to hon. gentlemen's constituents. But they deemed it proper to resist, and they had resisted, the temptation. It would be possible for the new Legislature to meet soon after the elections; the new House would be called as soon as possible. It was the proper course for this House to leave to its successor the business of voting the supply for next year, and confine itself to dealing with what legitimately belonged to it. They would not, for the sake of making a good showing and bringing down splendid estimates, depart from a good sound constitutional principle; and they would not anticipate the business of the next year which came within the province of a House yet to be elected.
The increase in the revenues for this year had been extraordinary and unexpected. The largest increase was from fees for wholesale liquor permits for the Yukon. From this source the revenue was $122,000 to begin with. From fees for enrollment of advocates there had been considerable revenue, which also was caused by the rush to the Yukon. It was not surprising that there had been a rush of lawyers to that country. The great movement of people into the gold fields, the likelihood of many legal conflicts arising out of disputed claims, etc , and the large fees to be hoped for, were doubtless a great attraction for professional gentlemen, apart altogether from the possibilities existing for any man to become possessed of a valuable mining claim himself. The business likely to arise out of the gold claims was sufficient to induce a rush of professional men, and the Territorial revenues reaped some $2,000 from fees for enrolment of advocates. Fees from appointment of notaries exceeded the estimate by $290. In all the Yukon yielded a revenue of more than $124,000,— an amount not calculated upon at all in the estimate of revenue available for this year made at last session. The ordinary local revenue had also taken an unexpected jump. They estimated it at $30,000. For a number of years the local revenue had been nearly a fixed amount, but this year it had exceed ed the estimate and exceeded the amount derived from local sources in former years by between $10,000 and $12,000. So in addition to the sum of $40,000 of their estimated revenue left unvoted last year, they had now a further sum of about $140,000 in round numbers belonging of the amount now asked to be voted. be asked legitimately to vote.
If they had much larger revenues this year, they found also that there were larger expenses to meet. The legislation of last session had led to an incalculable increase in the work of the public offices. The increase could not be put down to any particular new policy adopted, excepting the case of brands registration; but the ordinary everyday work of the offices had increased fully 40 or 50 per cent. No one not right on the spot could notice the increase or see the reasons for it, but it was a fact experienced in every department that the work had increased simply by leaps and bounds. Possibly it was partly due to the organization of government and the institution of regular departments —to the change from the vague system under which no one was definitely responsible and there were no organised departments, to the system of organised departments and appropriate individuals being appointed for the public to write to. For instance he had himself the honor to hold the title of Attorney General. The mere appointment of such an official had seemed to lead to a tremendous increase in the correspondence of the office. Every Justice of the Peace considered that he had a right to obtain information and advice upon all the business coming before him from the Attorney General, and others availed themselves of the opportunity afforded by the appointment of a law officer of the Crown in the Territories, to seek free legal advice and information. While it was not a part of the Attorney General's duties to deal out legal advice to every one who asked for it and upon every case or subject upon which his advice might be, and was, asked, yet he had attempted in all cases to give the benefit of his opinion when it was asked, and when there was nothing in the nature of the conditions or cases submitted to him to prevent him giving an opinion. In only a few cases he had been obliged to refuse the requests of gentlemen who sought his advice. The Attorney General's department was not nearly so directly in touch with the people generally as some other of the departments, but the work of the Attorney General's office had increased beyond all anticipation,—beyond any estimate that could possibly have been made. The general idea seemed to be that the Attorney General was appointed to give free advice, and often it was a very difficult and delicate task to lead people to comprehend that their cases were not of a public nature and involved no point of public interest, and should therefore be entrusted to a solicitor. But as he had said, whenever he was able he had given opinions to Justices and to individuals as well; he had sometimes perhaps strained a point to lead himself at least to believe that the cases submitted were connected in some way with the public interest, and only in one or two instances had he refused to give the best opinion he could give on points submitted.
Two notable items in the Estimates were asked to provide salaries for two new officials who had been appointed since the House last met. The House was asked to vote the salary for, and ratify the appointment of, Mr. Robson as law clerk, and for Mr. Peterson as deputy in the Department of Agriculture. In neither of these instances did he think there any call for apology. He could personally say for Mr. Robson that he was a first rate man for the work. There had for a long time been a constant demand for a law clerk in the House. The want had been long recognized of an official skilled and trained in the work of drafting legislation. There was a long standing feeling that the sooner they could see their way clear for the engagement of a law clerk, the better it would be for their legislation and general business. Mr. Robson would, too, fill the post of deputy to the Attorney General. In that regard he could only say that in view of the increase in the business of the office it had become a physical impossibility for the political head of the department to give the attention demanded to all the routine of the office. The House could have no idea of the number of points involving professional opinions, which came to the Attorney General's office, not alone from the outside public, but arising from the work of the other departments. From the work of the Public Works department there arose an innumerable and constantly increasing number of references—from the Statute Labour system, in regard to elections held under it, powers of Overseers and questions of assessment. So with the Education department. Under their system of schools there were constantly arising difficult and complicated questions which properly belonged for settlement to the law department of the government. From all their departments, in fact, there were points continually coming up which had to be considered in in the Attorney General's office. Under the Public Works department, again, there were questions of trails and road allowances, often intricate questions relating to titles involving business with the registry offices, and which could only be handled by the Attorney General. The same was true of the Irrigation administration. He needed only to mention some of these points, and to leave the House to understand and appreciate the nature and amount of this kind of work. All the subsidiary work respecting municipalities and like institutions brought the departments into very direct contact with the people on many questions involving legal points and questions of very important and often serious public interest,—points and questions upon which the departments must be in position to give well considered opinions. Again, prosecutions under the Ordinances were on the increase,—under the Liquor law particularly. The Government had been pushing the inspectors and during the year there had been a largely increased number of prosecutions, and no less than 21 convictions, a number equal to one-fifth of the licenses granted, and from which $1,900 had been received in the way of fines. Under the Prairie Fire Ordinance and other Ordinances there were constantly arising points, cases and work, which with his other duties—the Attorney General presided also over the Treasury and School departments—the member of the Government occupying the position of Attorney General could not begin to even casually consider. The time had come to install permanent men over the departments, and to cease confining the political heads to the clerical and routine work of the offices. The members of the Government were expected to give consideration to new legislation and to develop new policies; they should be enabled to travel through the country to keep in touch with the people and to keep acquainted with the conditions of all portions of the country. The men entrusted with the policy of Government had larger and more important work to engage them that the clerical and routine duties of the offices, and should not be held down in the office chairs attending to routine work which a reasonable addition to the staff could cope with and do well. In the past the routine work which the political heads were obliged to attend to had been too large. It had become a matter of difficulty to attend even to the daily mail, and in the multiplicity of affairs of detail which could not be avoided sometimes matters of larger interest had to be put to one side. The necessity of having permanent men in charge of the departments had been dwelt upon soundly in former years, —men whom political changes would not disturb and who would understand the law and the policy of the departments. The policy he referred to was quite distinct from the political policy. Certain rules and lines would be followed in the departments, which would be the same no matter what administration was in control. Such permanent heads were absolutely necessary for the continuity of public business,—men trained and skilled and experienced in the office and departmental administration. The political heads might come and go,—they were always liable to change. At one stage of the not remote history of the Territories, so much of the knowledge of the detail and business relating to the government had been confined to the mind of an Executive Committee, that if a political revolution had removed the occupants of the offices or had illness taken away the members, a very great deal of the essential knowledge of the business would have gone out with them, because the staff was insufficient and because there were no permanent head having hold of the threads and details of the business. He had personally often felt that his successor would have a nice amount of work just in gathering the threads and details. The appointment of an agricultural deputy would be bound to commend itself to the House. He would not need to dilate on the importance of that department. Agriculture was the main industry of the Territories, and the policy of the Government should be directed to the promotion of the interests of and the development of that industry. They were initiating a policy. The House was not asked to devote a large amount of money towards it, but they were making a departure, a commencement. The Agricultural department, although its scope and interest were large and most important, was not itself large as yet. There were just the deputy and one clerk at present, and no doubt, with possibly an assistant or two, this staff would be able to carry on the work for some time to come. Though the expense was small the department was not the less important and they could all sincerely hope that it would fast grow in usefulness.
In the present year the aggregate expenses of the offices had been extraordinarily large. The extra work had been occasioned not only in the manner he had been describing, a more or less legitimate increase; but a more extraordinary, and it was to be hoped temporary, increase was caused by the change in the Brands registration system adopted by the House last year. It was always easy after the event to see what might have been done better. He was willing to admit that if they had allowed a longer time within which to effect the change a great deal of the rush of work would have been avoided as well as a great deal of the trouble and unnecessary friction. He said this simply by way of retrospection. The was not use in dwelling on what might have been. the gift of prophetic insight had not been given enough play in the circumstance. The change was made the harder by the very incomplete state of the old records, and by the fact that many people did not get hold of the effect of the new law. He did not intend to take up any time with the subject, which would be fully dealt with by his colleague from Moose Jaw. The working of the new system had brought a revenue of $2,300 which more than paid for extra work and clerical services which the change had necessitated in the offices. The work had been very great. No less than 4,600 letters were received, and 8,000 communications had been sent out from the office, 2,500 of them being circulars. The applications numbered 5,000, and 3,700 brands had been re- allotted, or originally allotted. Each application and each brand dealt with involved more or less work. There had been two single cases of defective brands which took the time of one man two whole days to straighten out—a man who was skilled in the subject and who was brought down from the stock country temporarily to deal in a scientific way with the wor of changing the system. He was a man familiar with all the western brands and yet it took him two whole days to reach a determination in those two cases. This fact would enable the House to have some idea of the difficulty and amount of work which had been done. A great deal of the work done in the offices in the past year was new work, and there had been a redistribution of the officials. While the total expense had increased, the increase was entirely due to new work. The general tendency was to simplify the work. In the Education and Treasury offices and in some of the subsidiary branches there had been certain simplification and lessening of expense. There were fewer officials in these offices than formerly, while the work had certainly not become less. New work was being dealt with by the new departments, and new officials were established only when they became necessary from the point of view of usefulness and convenience to the people of the country The Government could claim that they were keeping to their policy and their traditions and were doing the work with the smallest staff compatible with the public interest. No one knowing the work which had to be done could cavil, and he stated a fact when he said that there was not a single unnecessary official in their employ. During the year the staff had worked night and day endeavoring to keep up with the business arising,—the officials had worked over hours not only for weeks but for months at a stretch, and even then there had been absolute necessity for the employment of extra temporary clerks. He had taken the ground in conversations with his colleagues, that whenever it was shown that the staff was unable to cope with the work, he would rather take the responsibility of employing additional assistance and depend upon the House to sustain the action, than to come down to the House and meet the complaints which were sure to be heard if the work were not done. He could honestly say and claim that in every case where they had engaged an extra clerk or had made a new appointment, there had been an actual requirement.
The Public Works items he would leave to Mr. Ross to explain, who was better qualified to enter into the details. In a general way he might say that in the supplementaries there were votes asked for a few new items, but the bult of the items were for works which had been pressed for last year but could not be provided with the means then at the disposal of the House. The works for which votes were now asked were works which could be done and would be done this year; of course they would of necessity be done this year or the money would lapse. Of the new items, there was one for a Territorial map. There was not at present any up-to-date map of the Territories. The map would include the electoral districts to be made at this session. The House was asked to provide for 10,000 copies, and they would be ready very shortly after the House rose. Including the Statute Labor, School and Legislative Assembly districts, the map would contain a large amount of very valuable information taking the place of letter press description. The showing of the useful institutions of the country would constitute a valuable object lesson. It would be an unwritten pamphlet on the North-West Territories. There was a vote for the expenses of the inspection of steam boilers, which service is expected to return sufficient in fees to pay for itself and perhaps show a slight margin to the good. There was a vote to pay a portion of a bonus to a man at Wetaskiwin, the circumstances of which were the following: From the district grant a bonuse of $500 had been promisted to the man in consideration of his building a flour mill and operating for three years. After one year's operation the mill was burned. It was insured in favor of the Government, who received the $500 from the policy. The man had operated the mill for one third of the term of his agreement, and it was thought right that he should receive one-third of the amount of the bonus. In regard to Public Works, Mr. Haultain hoped that in future years the Estimates would assume a different form, and that there would be fewer items for small works than had been necessary last year and were found necessary this year. Now that between 400 and 500 Statute Lavor Districts were organised and would be better able to cope with the smaller works and improvements as the organisation became more effective through experience of its working, it could reasonably be hoped that year by year the Estimates would contain items for fewer small works, leaving the fund to be devoted to larger and enduring works which would live and go down to the credit of the members whose privilege it might be to recommend them and of the Government which might construct them. Nevertheless this year the position in regard to public works was most gratifying. Without drawing a cent of money legitimately belonging to another year, the House was able to vote, including the amounts asked in these supplementaries, a total sum of $197,385.00 to be expended on public works and improvements in the 16 months ending 31st Dec., 1898. This splendid showing of course carried with it its own danger. Unless the funds of later years were increased as this year's funds had been, from some unexpected source, they must drop again to the commonplace amounts of former years. In a way they were courting future disappointment. However the money they had this year rightly belonged to them, and it ought to be spent by them, without concern as to what might happen in the future. The items included provision for the construction of bridges and culverts, and repairs to public works. The expenses for repairs would increase from year to year, as larger works were erected. A point had been arrived at when many of the works constructed years ago were showing the necessity for repairs. Whenever a road or a bridge became necessary and was constructed, there followed the necessity of keeping it in repair. Some of the items in these supplementaries would stand to the credit of future years in a sense. The tools, supplies and implements provided for would not outlive their usefulness this year. Not an item could be found in the public works list which was not of a distinctly practical nature.
Education was one of the most important subjects dealt with by the Assembly. The House was asked to pass a very large supplementary vote for grands to schools. An amount was voted last year which was estimated to be sufficient for the 16 months. At last session he had given indication of certain circumstances which might lead to the necessity of making an additional vote this year, but the sum they were now obliged to ask ($25,000) was both extraordinary and unexpected. It made a serious drain on the general resources, and withdrew a very large sum from the amounts available for other purposes. On the other hand the circumstances and conditions which made necessary the drain and the withdrawal were matters of congratulation, however much they might grudge the inroad. In the Estimates at the 1897 session, the Government had estimated for an increase in the number of schools and school children at a rate proportionate with the rate prevailing in previous years. However, it was found that the ration of increase in 1897-98 in the number of teachers employed was twice as great as the ratio of increase in 1896-97. The House would at once recognize that this fact necessitated an increased expenditure, and at the same time that it was a subject for congratulation. The increase in the number of children attending the schools amounted to more than twice the ratio of increase in the previous year. This was altogether astounding although very desirable. By the system of grants an amount was paid for every day that every child attended school, so that a large addition to the school attendance meant a large addition to the school grants. Another unexpected increase arose from the re-opening of no less than 13 schools which had been closed, and of which there had been no reason last year to expect the re-opening. On the contrary it had been expected they would be disorganised as they had seemed to stand in the way of re-erections of different districts. But they had suddenly revived, and they alone represented $3,000 Last session he had drawn attention to the decrease in the number of holders of 3rd class certificates employed. The tendency was to employ the teachers of higher qualifications. The move was welcomed as being in the right direction in the interests of the schools, but they had had no idea how fast the movement was to go on. This year 3rd class teachers represent only 18 per cent of the number of teachers employed in the Territories. This was a splendid showing. It was a significant fact that the number of lowest grade teachers engaged in the new Territories was smaller than the number engaged in the old and rich province of Ontario. In that province more than 50 per cent of the teachers are holders of lowest grade certificates as against only 18 per cent in the Territories. Speaking comparatively as well as absolutely the fact spoke volumes for the nature of the education given in the common schools of the North-West Territories, and showed that the trustees and ratepayers in this country appreciate the better qualified teachers. But their appreciation causes increased expenditure. Higher grades meant higher grants, and imposed an additional burden on the resources of the Assembly, a burden, however, they cheerfully recognised and met. The larger salaries paid to higher grade teachers affected the grants, as in a measure of the grants were governed by the salary paid to the teacher. Another feature of the increase was the changing of many of the shorter-term or "summer" schools into yearly schools, or which if not keeping open for the full year were prolonging the summer sessions. The Ordinance held out inducements for regular attendance and likewise the grants. The general effect of the system of grants adopted two years ago had been to increase the attendance in summer schools. First there would be an increase in attendance, then the schools would be kept open a longer term, and finally the summer schools changed to yearly school. All these features showing the rapid development of the school system must be gratifying to every one interested in the education of the young people of the Territories. From a strictly financial point of view the increase was a misfortune, but on the other hand it was a source of gratification.
The next feature of the Estimates had to do with Agriculture and Statistics. The Government had not been able yet to complete the scheme foreshadowed last year respecting agricultural societies and exhibitions. That the present plan of holding many small shows was simply a dissipation of money and a scattering of energies, all would agree. But the matter was a delicate one. Local habitations were likely to resent interference with their self governing powers; and it had to be admitted that in the early days the small societies did a very excellent work. They had filled an unoccupied place and had been a dinstinct advantage to the new institutions growing up under pioneer conditions. So far as their resources and organisation admitted they had done well. But the time has passed by when they met the requirements and conditions of the country. The Government were, however, not prepared to deal with the question now. If the elections resulted as they hoped, a scheme would be ready for submission to the House at its next session. Under the heading appeared two items which were new departures and the direct result of the establishment of an Agricultural department. The House was not asked to risk any great amount of money in this branching out. Any branching out they could do was of necessity very modest. Not matter who was in control, there were certain services which had to be met; and when those services were met there was not much money left for new schemes or any brilliant policy. Their Estimates had always shown a desire, and their policy had always been, to have their institutions grow up with the country. They had always endeavored to grapple with the conditions as they arose, and to have their institutions keep pace with the development of the country. It was in this spirit that they now endeavored to deal with the interests of agriculture and stock raising. The policy in regard to the latter interest would be to encourage "breeding up." In the western part of the country particularly there was no question but that there had been in the last few years a most undesirable deterioration in quality of the cattle on the ranges. This was partly owing to the fact that the large owners had gone out of breeding. the quality and value of the herds were not what they were eight, ten or twelve years ago. This statement applied to the west; possibly in the eastern part the tendency had been the other way. while the early herds in the west had been of splendid quality and value, the rule with settler in the eastern part had been that the first cattle he obtained were not of very good grade. At any rate all would agree that "grading up" in both east and west would be a very great benefit; and anything which would tend to encourage this desirable improvement without making too large inroads upon their resources, would be good policy to adopt. The method proposed was to make arrangements for the transportation of the thoroughbred animals at nominal cost to the purchaser; to this extent, that a thoroughbred animal might be landed at the home of the purchaser in the Territories at just the cost of the animal in the eastern province or wherever else purchased. Distance would simply be abolished so far as concerned the man in the Territories who wanted to procure a thoroughbred sire. The amount asked for this purpose ($2,000) was very small; in fact it looked to be an absurdly smal expenditure in view of the very great importance of the project, but the Govern ment were satisfied that the amount would meet the needs of the service. Another amount of $2,500 was asked to initiate experimental work. Anyone who had visited the district surrounding Indian Head must have been struck with the splendid crops and the generally flourishing condition of the district. The special success attending farming in that neighborhood could not be due to any superiority of soil or conditions as compared with other districts; the success was due in great measure to practical facts relating to agriculture which farmers there obtain,— to the advantage they have of seeing scientific farming carried on under the identical conditions prevailing on their own farms The example offered by the Indian Head experimental farm, altough unfortunately confined to the few who live immediately around it, was still productive of practical good of which the Indian Head district was the standing proof. Excellent as was the work of the Indian Head farm, its usefulness was very largely confined to the neighborhood possessing the same soil and conditions as prevailed on the farm itself. The experiments which proved that a certain kind of wheat could be successfully grown at Indian Head, would not prove that the wheat could be grown on different soil and under differnt conditions. A trip of 40 or 50 miles in this country would often show totally changed soil and climate, and the method good for one district might not be good for the other. So from the broad point of view, the work of one experimental farm in a country having so many varieities of soil and conditions as the Territories, could not have any large practical use or importance. Everyone would admit the value of experimental work, and the question was, could this Government undertake the work with advantage? They believed they could do so. As the amount asked for would indicate, there was no proposal to buy farms or attempt any scheme which would involve great expense. They would be confined to work in the way of results and lessons, —the dealing with questions concerning the evry-day work of the every-day farmer. Their plan would be severely practical. He had no doubt they would find farmers in every dinstinct locality who were interested in experimental work, and would be willing to carry it on. He thought there would be no difficulty in finding good farmers to devote a few acres to experiments with seeds,   grains, vegetable and other things in return for a small amount to cover the cost of the labor expended in the operations. The next item related to hide inspection. Possibly he was anticipating committee work by explaining these small items, but explaining them now might save time in committee. Under the old Ordinance hide inspectors were appointed who were remunerated by fees. Owing partly to a fault in the law, and to an unfortunate turn taken certain cases being prosecuted, ceratin inspectors not been able to enforce the collection of their fees. This direct loss to the inspectors was occasioned by a fault of the Ordinance and by difficulties in regard to proof which would have attended the prosecution of the cases, and the Government thought it right that the recompense of the inspectors should be made good. The House was asked to vote an additional $1000 for the 16 months to hospitals. They had never been able to give to hospitals the amounts which it would be desirable to give if the Territorial financial conditions were more favorable. The hospitals of the Territories were doing splendid work. Under an Ordinance the Assembly provided for certain grants which were divided proportionately among the institutions according to the actual work done, but the amount they were enabled to vote had never equalled the amount held out in the Ordinance. The Ordinance held out 50 cents per patient on a certain calculation. They had never been able to pay more than 26 cents. The present year had been a heavy one upon some of the hospitals, particularly at Macleod and Lethbridge, on account of the building of the Crow's Nest railway. the one at Macleod had had to be enlarged twice to meet the requirements of many add itional patients. A large amount of private aid had been given. The same remark would apply to Lethbridge. Of course the patients who were railway employees were paid for, but the dollar a day charged did not cover the whole expense, and a large part of the work of every hospital was left to be sustained by private generosity. The present year was a prosperous one for the Assembly financially, and the House could well afford this year to increase the amount of aid for hospitals. An item of $1200 was asked to defray the expense of checking certain outbreaks of disease, occuring respectively at Saskatoon, Edmonton, Pincher Creek and Yorkton. Such votes would doubtless be found necessary from time to time. Hitherto the expenditure in this connection had not been large, and he was sure they did not grudge a single cent voted for Hospitals, Charities and Public Health. There were in the Territories none of those institutions which were found necessary in older communities,— for incurables and indigent people. We had not those poorer classes in any number in this country. While the people here were not rich, comparatively, yet partly because the country was young, and the population youthful, there were not many widows, orphans or incurables, who have to look to government and legislature for support under trying conditions. He did not think it would be wise yet to hold out definitely any promises of support to those classes. The holding out of a promise would to a certain extent develop a demand. But he was sure the public did not grudge what was voted for charitable purposes. The average man in this country was not over-burdened with legitimate claims upon his charity.
It being half-past twelve o'clock , Mr. Speaker left the chair.
Resuming his speech at 2:30 o'clock, Mr. Haultain took up the item of $6,000 for expenses of administration of Territorial affairs in the Yukon district, to cover a special warrant. The Government's policy on that question had already been variously and very generally discussed, but at the expense of repetition he would recite a few of the points which led to the organisation of the expedition, and to the exercise of the powers conferred upon this Government of administering certain affairs in the Yukon. Between the Dominion and the Territories the question was not one admitting of controversy. It had to be admitted that the question was one of ordinary law, in which any question of constitutional law had no relation. It was an indisputable fact of ordinary law that certain administration devolved upon the Lieut.-Governor of the Territories, which meant that the Lieut.-Governor was to administer by and with the advice and consent of an Executive Council. The position of affairs in the Yukon threw a clear duty upon the North-West Government, and the Government proceeded to take steps to fulfil the duty. They organised an expedition to be sent to the district. They sent an officer or plenipotentiary clothed with full power to carry out the law within the scope of the responsibilities of the Territorial Government. The Government had been attacked with charges of having usurped the functions of the Legislature in not getting the sanction of the House for their course. That charge had already been met and explained. The Government had stated to the House that it was not the intention to bring down a proposition respecting the Yukon, but that as soon as the House rose the question would be taken up by the Government and the steps taken which seemed advisable; and the statement met with a certain sort of approval in the House. It was further charged that the Government usurped the functions of the Legislature in relation to the prohibitory sections of the Act. Such charge could have no other foundation than complete ignorance of the Act. The N .W.T. Act was the only law on the subject. Section 92 of the Act provided that "Except by special permission of the Govern- nor General in Council" (at Ottawa) no intoxicants should be manufactured in certain parts of the Territories. The mere fact that there were such provision in the Act showed that it was contemplated that at some time in the course of the development of the country there might be necessity or desirability of allowing the manufacture of liquor. That provision placed beyond the chance of argument the contention that the Act intended a prohibitory law. Regarding the sale or possession of liquor the Act provided that there should be none excepting by the special permission in writing of the Lieut. Governor of the Territories. the Act prohibited the manufacture, sale or possession of liquor only until special permission was given. The Act could not be read partially. To get the intention of it the whole law had to be read together, and even the most casual reading would lead to the belief that the original intention of the Act was that there should be prohibition only so long as conditions required prohibition, and that when the conditions changed the provision made for allowing the manufacture, sale or possession of liquor should be utilized. This was the reasonable interpretation of the law. As to the point that the Government usurped the functions of the Legislature in regulating the importation and sale of liquor in the Yukon, he need only point to the Act, which failed to show that the Legislature had any functions under the section dealing with liquor permits. The power of administration was given distinctly to the Lieut.- Governor. The only thing the Legislature could possibly do in reagrd to the subject would be to adopt resolutions to guide the Executive Council. It was extremely unlikely that the Government, being subject to the will of the House, would exercise their executive functions in a manner contrary to the wish of the House; but the Legislature could not make regulations or Ordinances. All the House could do would be to express an opinion, which could be done in such a way that the Government would have to take it for guidance or give place to a Government which would be so guided. As to the date upon which the Government acted would not say more than that they acted at the very earliest possible moment. The Legislature at last session understood and acquiesced in the position which practically prevented earlier action. In support of his argument on the interpretation of the prohibitory sections of the Act he might quote a note- able precedent, Governor Royal's 1 per cent permits. It had of course been urged that Lieut.-Governor Royal infringed the spirit of the law; but the spirit of the law, he thought, depended upon the particular critic for the time being . It seemed plain to him that the law intended that liquor might be sold in this country whenever the circumstances of the country warranted the sale. The Territorial expedition itself had not been entered upon until the sum of $6,000 had come to the Assembly funds from the Yukon source. The expense was not undertaken until the way opened up to meet it without charging the ordinary revenues. The mission had been called speculators, if the Government were obliged to seek excuse, they might make an excuse of their success. But they did not need to do that. They had been confronted with a plain duty, and they undertook to carry out their duty. If they had not had means for an expedition they would have attempted to apply the law and the regulations otherwise. He would admit that the need of an expedition had not seemed so pressing when they lacked the money for it. Poverty was the root of a great deal of evil, and poverty might have obliged the Government to conclude not to send an expedition. It was fortunate that the money appeared, and from the moment that it was in sight they had no more doubt about the desirability of the expedition. He would point out that when the Legislature was in session the money was not in sight, even if the policy had been in sight. It would have been difficult for the Legislature to point out the plain duty of the Government in face of lack of means. When the money did appear and when the policy was framed and adopted the Legislature was not in session, and the appropriation had to be made under order in council. The result of their policy and their expedition was eminently satisfactory from the financial point of view. Apart from the large receipts from wholesale permits, the actual work of the expedition itself had resulted in the collection, if his information was reliable, of a sum aggregating $28,000, which in itself would very much more than pay its expenses. As to the desirability of the expedition, he expected no one would question it. In sending it they had simply followed their plain duty, and attempted to do what in the circumstances ought to have been done even if their jurisdiction had embraced nothing but the administration in relation to liquor. It had become a matter of common knowledge that open and unrestricted sale of liquor prevailed, with bars open night and day and attended with gambling and immoral devices. And liquor was only one of many matters within this jurisdiction which would appeal to the knowledge of the House. There was a great number of administrative duties arising with the increasing population in Klondyke. So good an authority as the Minister of the Interior expected an influx of 40,000 people last winter and spring, and this Government thus became responsible for seeing to the administration of all Territorial laws relating to municipal matters and public health. The expedition was not a whisky commission; it was sent to carry out all the laws the administration of which, so long as the Yukon was a part of the Territories, devolved upon the Territorial Government. There was the possibility that the district would demand and deserve representation in the Assembly. When the expedition went out there had been no word of the cutting off of the territory,— not the slightest indication, beyond the vague fears expressed in the House of the possible lopping off of territory. In face of last year's resolution adopted by the House, no Government existing on the sufferance of the House could have dared to assume that Parliament would set directly in the face of the unanimous wish of the representa THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, SEPTEMBER 29, 1986 10 tives in the Assembly. The estimated expected population of the Yukon amounted to as much as one-half the total population of the organised Territories. There was every reason to expect that before the general election there would require to be a redistribution which would give the Yukon representation the House, in which event accurate information collected by a member of the Government would have been most desirable. It was true that a different destiny had overtaken the Yukon territory, but he was arguing from the point of view of last winter and from the conditions and circumstances and possibilities which the Government had had to consider at the time. The financial side of their policy was fully justified. There was no use inThe Government were taking no part in the Territorial exhibition in the Institute, considering that the matter belonged to the Federal authority which retains ex- after itself. Referring to Mr. [?] tion. But the subscription would have to be paid, as it was agreed to by an authority competent at the time to make an agreement for the Territories. For some time Messrs. Redpath and Skinner, Canadian trustees of the Institute, had been themselves paying the Territorial subscription. The time had some for the Territories to carry out the agreement made in their name,- to pay what is owing, but no more. No doubt the intention was excellent, but there were no such strikingly good results from it as would justify, in the state of Territorial finances, the payment of $500 a year or even a lesser amount. The connection would be discontinued. arguing that they should have known that the territory would be cut off. Even if they had known that their jurisdiction would cease on 14th June, the expedition would still be justified. As to the mission all the particulars to be had before the return of the Commissioner had been given, and he would leave the question to the judgement of the House.
The next item was one of $750 "to pay the Imperial Institute the proportion of expenses of the Canadian Court allotted to the Territories to Dec., 1898" He said that this one of the rapidly diminishing items, a few of which remained as a legacy from a previous period when the business of the country was carried on by the Lieut.-Governor and was left in practically irresponsible hands. In 1894 the capital amount due on this particular agreement was $1824. The agreement had been made by the Lieut.-Governor and the Minister of Interior, the former in reality, acting upon instructions from the latter; and by it the Department was to provide $1,300, the Territories paying $500. Thus the Territories were committed to the payment of that annual amount for the Territorial Court in the Institute. The arrangement would not be renewed.
Under the heading of Miscellanous there was an item to assist in defraying the expense of the entertainment of parties of members of American press associations. He had been personally present at the entertainment given to one of these parties at Regina. From what he could gather from the very large number of papers received, he had no hesitation at all in stating that he plan was a first rate one. The country had received an amount of practically free and most appreciative advertising in the States represented by these parties through which we could reasonably hope to get an immigration that no expenditure in the way of salaries and expenses of agents could bring about. Certain communities undertook to arrange entertainment for the parties, and the Government was asked to help to defray the expenses. In no case were they proposing to pay more than half the expense incurred by communities. For every dollar the Government would pay, the communities paid a dollar of their own.
In addition to the supplementaries, the House was aksed to appropriate $60,000 for 1899. In changing the financial year they had several ends in view. One aim was to enable the holding of the annual legislative sessions in the early portion of the year instead of in the fall; and in arranging for winter sessions, to enable the public accounts to be brought down within a reasonable time after the closing of the financial year. They had to allow for a certain length of time to elapse between the closing of the year and the closing of the accounts,- either that or make use of Lieut.-Governor's warrants, because the accounts of no business whose year ended on a certain date could be closed up sharp on that date. They had approximated the desirable arrangement now- an unwritten and flexible arrangement of course- of having the House called early in the year. The Treasury Ordinance allowed one month after the end of the year for the closing of the accounts, and it would not be desirable to call the House together until four or six weeks after the new year. It was desirable that it should be called not later than he had indicated. It would be unconstitutional for the Government to advise prorogation now with dissolution and elections approaching and with a new financial year commencing before the new Legislature could well meet, without asking Supply sufficient to carry on the public business until the new House was likely to meet. The amount so voted would practically settle the period at which the new House would have to be called. In asking an a amount for this purpose they were simply following Canadian constitutional precedents- following the regular practice of the provinces. The amount asked ($60,000) was not large enough to allow the Government to run on very long without a session. Two-thirds of the amount, or $40,000, would be paid out in January for school grants, leaving only $20,000 to carry on the ordinary business until the House met. So there was no need to apprehend any violent strain, or any attempt on the part of the Government to carry on the business too long without the sanction of the new Legislature. The amount, the House would understand, would have to be re- voted in the Estimates of the next session.
He had now completed the explanation of the Estimates, and had explained in detail and at length, which would save time later on. He thought he had explained every important item. Apart from those items there were certain matters which this was an appropriate time to consider. The amount asked in the supplementaries was extraordinarily and unexpectedly large. The most significant feature of the Estimates, it seemed to him, was the fact that although the revenue for this year was so very far in excess of their ordinary revenue, there appeared to be necessity for all of it. Here they were in the middle or just a little past the middle of a financial year for which Supply had already been voted, and without going outside the fyles of the office,- merely upon the representations sent in by members, engineers and others, of work which demanded public expenditure, they easily found ample scope for the application of the extraordinary revenue. The new departures made were insignificant financially. Upon the old and regular services they easily found places for the disposition of the increase. If they could so easily expend the remarkably large amount- because $162,000 was a remarkably large amount to be supplementary to the regular revenue, they must conclude that the ordinary revenue was now by no means adequate to supply the ordinary wants of the Territories. This conclusion had been looked upon as not far away before, but it was driven home with force to-day. Then followed the other question. What were they to do? In a single year they were expending upon actual requirements and necessities $162,000 more than in future years they were likely to get. Their necessities were constantly increasing, their services were growing, and the needs would never become less. What were they to do? It was plain that they could not possibly look for any such increases in revenue in future years. But the growth of the services, the extensions of schools, and other conditions obliged them to look for some means of obtaining an increase in revenue. They were brought to the point which he had discussed last year. The present transitory state was in a way very suitable, yet they were confronted with the fact that it did yield enough money to meet the conditions. The problem was one which would very soon have to be faced. It was all very well to say that the present institutions were suitable; that was very true. The Territories were not fixed and bound down by Imperial Acts as were the Provinces. We were not bound by fixed agreement or final terms. Our position depended only upon an Act of Parliament which might be amended or changed, and our Vote depended upon the annual will of Parliament, and could be increased at Parliament's pleasure. If the Territorial financial problem were solved, our present institutions would be suitable for all needs for some time to come. Our legislative jurisdiction was the same as possessed by the provinces, excepting that we lacked the borrowing power. In all respects, except the financial side, the legislative machinery and position were quite adequate. But the financial side was vital. The machinery and institutions must have money to keep them in operation. However excellent or desirable those institutions, the country was confronted with the fact that the machinery and institutions were no longer feasible if side by side with them there was failure from the financial point of view. There seemed to be only one thing to do, only one step to take to relieve the position; and they should prepare for that step as practical men, not as theorists. The argument that provincial establishment meant taxation might be a very useful argument with which to appeal to the populace, and with which to carry meetings, but to men who take the trouble to see all sides of the question there was only one conclusion to come to, and that was that very little hope existed of relieving the atrain except by the Territories taking the final step and entering the confederation of provinces. It could not reasonably be hoped that Parliament would give the necessary increase in the present grants; and in his view it would be the principal work of the new Legislature at least before the end of the next term to open negotiations for t he entrance of the Territories into confederation. Personally he was not an ardent provincialist. He had always taken the ground that it was well to make haste slowly, and so long as we could work out our own salvation he favored the present status. But if we could not get the necessary revenues we simply could not continue to carry on the business. He had no hesitation in saying that even within the next year they would be unable to provide fully for the ordinary services with the pressent ordinary revenue. The rate at which the schools were growing while very gratifying was none the less embarrassing. In every direction there was increasing growth, and every step of development in the school system meant an additional demand on the exchequer. There was every reason now to look for much more rapid growth than in the past. Every thing seemed to have taken a favorable turn. The Yukon had advertised the North-West Territories all over the civilised world, and more attention would be called to this country when the results of the present harvest became known. There was every indication of a flow of immigration which unfortunately, however ardently hoped for, had not materialised in past years. So they had to look forward to increased inroads on the revenue available for schools and public works. To have to reduce the school grants would be a very distasteful necessity, but it would be a necessity in the near future if the present rate of increase in the school attendance continued, and if some remedy was not found financially. He thought unless the remedy was found the present school grants could not be continued for more than two years longer; and even next year, with the revenue no larger than the present year's ordinary revenue, when the amounts for schools were provided little would be left for public works and other purposes. As practical men they must conclude that the present institutions would not do if joined with the financial embarrassment. Outside of the method of direct taxation for only method open was to negotiate for entrance to confederation. There was no question that when we went in we would receive more money than we receive now. Whether we would receive all that the Territories would be entitled to was a different question, depending on the Government and Legislature of the day, depending on the men entrusted with the negotiations. The settlement would not be consummated to-day, nor possibly next year, but the question was one which it seemed to him the new Legislature would have to take up, and he thought it was the most important question that the new Legislature would have to deal with. He made this statement for the Government as showing that the future attitude of this Government would have the end of the provincial establishment in view.
He had no thought that the change would make us wealthy. He had called attention last year to the fact that when the Territories are erected under provincial establishment we would have to provide for several services which were no provided by the Federal Parliament. Among these items was the administration of justice which, exclusive of the salaries of the judges, costs $32,000 a year; towards agricultural societies in the Territories the Dominion pays $7,000 annually; $15,000 was expended last year and $5,000 was being expended this year in aid of creameries in the Territories, besides $200,000 last year and $165,000 this year passed in aid of dairying generally, a large part of which was expended for the benefit of the Territories. The question of dairying was, by the way, one which confronted the Assembly; at no distant date no doubt they would be obliged to deal with that subject. The Mounted Police expenditure- $385,000 last year and $353,000 this year, of course he would always argue was an expenditure upon a federal force. The police were a federal necessity on account of the Indians, and were not for local purposes. The Dominion Public Works department made may expenditures in the North-West for objects of provincial character. The Dominion built no jails nor court houses in the provinces. All these services, now carried out at federal expense, would fall upon the local authority under provincial establishment. Then there was the vote from which the Assembly derived the bulk of its revenues,- the vote for Government of the North-West Territories,- $358,000 last year, of which $282,000 came to the Assembly. The balance, expended from Ottawa, was for strictly domestic matters, including the maintenance of insane patients, the land titles offices, the expenses of Lieut.-Governor's office and Government House. besides the foregoing the Dominion was this year expending $150,000 upon surveys in the North- West, an item which would be charged against the capital account of the Territories, and which belonged to the domestic side, although so long as the Dominion holds the Crown lands the item could not be properly chargeable against us. However, he hoped that some day the item would appear in the Territorial Estimates. He certainly believed that we were as much entitled to
of public lands as was any of the provinces. The bargain with the Hudson's Bay Company, by which a paltry amount was paid over from the Dominion treasury, was not to buy the country but to extinguish an imaginary title. The mere fact of that bargain did not in any sense constitute ownership. He believed that when we became erected into a province we would be as much entitled to all the lands, mines, hay and timber as the other provinces which hold and derive the revenues from these sources. It would be an important, difficult and perhaps delicate task to discuss this matter in the negotiations, but he did not believe it was a matter to be left at the bare dictation of Parliament. Although Parliament possessed the right to erect a province or provinces, the question of the lands and minerals involved a larger constitutional and legal right. His own opinion was that there was a strictly legal right to depend upon, and that such right might be successfully prosecuted before the highest tribunal in the realm if necessary. (Prolonged applause.)
There was only one way to begin the negotiations for erection as a province- not as provinces. He had had the misfortune to hear in that room an expression of a wish for division. There was no sound grounds for such a wish. Such desire was not founded upon any sound reason relating to administration or expenditure or anything else. It was an expression simply of local ambitions. He did not believe a single argument had ever been advanced in favor of division other than the desire of some locality relating to the capital establishment and the incidental local expenditure attending such establishment. (Applause.) He had heard a number of speeches but he hd not yet heard a single convincing argument in favor of division. It seemed to him that there was every reason for a single province. As far as concerned administration, where was the difficulty? What point was so remote in these days of telephones, telegraphs and railways, - and in later days doubtless these conveniences would grow in scope and usefulness,- what point was so remote that the affairs of government could not be administered as well practically, so far as distance went, from the North Pole as from any other point? With one province they would avoid the elaboration of governments; they would have one strong and efficient set of machinery instead of a duplication of trebling of functionaries. So far as concerned any differences of interest or geographical location, there was not a single argument. In the Territories there was a great diversity of interest, but there was no conflict of interests. He had been a member of that House for ten years and of the North-West Council which preceded it; he had, he thought, taken a fairly active share in the work, and he could say that he did not recollect any single occasion when there had been any conflict in the interest upon any question raised in the House. That the situation showed diversity of interests, of conditions, of climate and of population was certain, which simply made the necessary diversity of treatment. That there had been any failure to deal with the diversified interests and conditions could not be successfully charged. They frequently made exceptions in the laws in favor of different areas with different conditions. There never had been conflict. All the representatives had always had a ready hearing and had had full scope to carry out what was best for their particular part of the country. He did not mention this topic because of any indication in the House respecting conflicting interests, but there had been cries in the country, and he had heard rumors of such places as Alberta, Assiniboia and Saskatchewan. These places were never heard of in the House in relation to legislation or administration. He would strongly depreciate such cries at this particular and critical point in the history of the country. Now was the time to drop all local, or conflicting questions and stand shoulder to shoulder on the important question which affected no one portion but all of the Territories as a unit. We had not yet population equal to the number of inhabitants of one eastern city, but the resources and the opportunities which were ours should nerve us to make the best effort to do the best with those resources and opportunities, and to push forward in the direction best for the future of the Territories.
At this point Mr. Haultain stated that he feared he was taking up too much time, but there were cried of Go on, Go on. Proceeding he said he would like to make some reference to the matter of policy. He thought no one could say, even in regard to those supplementary estimates alone, that there was any lack of policy. In every item there was policy cropping up. He made a hasty review of the items. The item for civil government involved a policy, - the policy of maintaining efficient departments, developing the public service for the convenience of the people, of having the public business done systematically, and for providing machinery for carrying on the work with efficiency and economy.The items for schools were associated with their educational policy, which no one would deny was in the right direction,- a policy to give a good plain practical education to every child in the Territories, and to have the children associated and educated together without any regard to race, religion or other consideration; they had avoided a number of the delicate and difficult questions which had divided the people in some of the provinces, and to-day the Territorial system was, if not in name, in reality a national school system- if not in name, it was merely by reason of a certain constitutional right which he would not wish to, and there was to reason to, disturb. Their policy was to group all the children in the public schools regardless of class or position, creed or nationality, and their policy aimed at the extension of the sys tem as far and as wide as the resources would allow. They paid as liberal grants to schools as any country in the world, which grants made it possible for the smallest conceivable community or collection of individuals to have a school and made it possible for nearly every child, - for every child except in very isolated localities to receive the advantages of a plain, common education. The aim of the system was to give a good common education rather than to support the higher branches. The Government believed of course in higher education, and in time they would have to extend in that direction; but as yet they found the necessity of being strictly practical, situated as they were yet in the position of settlers and pioneers. The development of the public, moon schools was the whole object as yet. The results of their policy in regard to the training of teachers they could look upon already with pride. The Territories were becoming independent of the eastern provinces in the matter of supply of teachers. Of the higher grade teachers the supply was exceeding the demand. The item for inspection of coal mines indicated a policy,- a policy to look after the interests and lives of the men toiling in the mines; the item was small but it met the actual requirements. The public works items revealed policy,- the policy to do what was required to be done as substaintially as possible, and to distribute the amounts available for public works equitably between the natural divisions of the country, - a policy to provide first the most needful and important works in the way of main highways, bridges, and water supply. They had a policy respecting surveys,- very important because it concerned the means of communication with markets and between centres. In regard to Agriculture they were devising a policy in keeping with the traditions of the North-West Government. All their institutions had begun small and grown slowly. The agricultural policy now proposed was proportionate with their resources if not with their needs. The Government had recognized the necessity of action in the line of encouragement of those industries which are the foundation of all possible prosperity in this country; and as soon as money became available their policy appeared. The items under the heading of Hospitals, Charities and Public Health indicated policy,- the policy of avoiding a large number of institutions which might constitute a sort of invitation to helpless classes. The item for Yukon expenses was connected with a very distinct policy in relation to the administration of affairs in the Yukon, - a policy for which the Government claimed credit; it was a policy to assert the self governing rights of the people of the Territories and to resist the arbitrary stack of the Federal Government which attempted to take away certain of those self-governing rights. They had grappled with the difficulties of far-off conditions,-difficulties which, to judge by some of the criticisms of their policy, were extremely dangerous. But their policy shirked neither the difficulties nor dangers. The Government took their decided stand in connection with the Yukon question not so much in their own behalf as in behalf of the self-governing machinery which members of the Governmennt had taken considerable hand and part in obtaining for the Territories. For policy he would also point to the Statutes. He need not enumerate the laws and Ordinances, every one of which was associated with distinct policy. Some people were asking, What was the policy of the Government? In certain small communities there were men who seemed to be sitting waiting for something, for some new and brilliant scheme with which the Government would appeal to the country at the election. He might say at once that there would be no appeal to the House or to the country on any new policy, or on any policy not appearing in the Estimates or as written in every page of their Statute book. The Government's policy would not be found in flippant speeches calculated to tickle the ears and to arouse the short-lived enthusiasm of audiences, nor in bald resolutions. Their policy was one of practical legislation,- a policy to deal wisely with actual conditions for the best interest of the country and the people. The names of the Ordinances he need not repeat,- were they not written in the book of the Statutes? And could not the members of the Government reasonably claim that they had been mainly instrumental in the initiation and framing of all the legislation within the past ten years? He did not make the claim as a boast. People who were searching for the Government's policy needed only to read the Statutes and they would find a policy worthy of their time and attention and which if they followed closely enough could not fail to make them wiser and better citizens. Only one suggestion had ever been made within his knowledge by these people who clamored for a policy. He would say that the Government did not ask to be supplied with a policy by the critics. The Government was never so badly off that they needed to trouble themselves searching for policies. But in all the criticisms and in all the little remarks made by little writers in little newspapers respecting the no-policy of the Government, he had failed to see any indication of suggestion to supply the alleged lack. They did not ask their critics to make them a policy; and if the critics had suggested policies the Government would likely have been glad not to be able to accept them. But approaching the end of a term of the Assembly, the critics ought to come down and be a little more definite. It would certainly be unfair to ask them to give away their hands, if they hold any hands, but they should surely be able to show where there had been deficiency, - to show that where, concerning any individual, class or interest, action had been demanded, action had not been taken. It was surely time now for these dumb oracles to speak. But they speak not, and there is heard only the general and unsatisfactory statement that the Government have no policy. From now on he was going to ay in answer to that statement, What policy? Policy upon what? The policy of the Government was crystallized upon the pages of the statute book of the Territories. They had so dealt with every subject calling for attention that in all the criticisms there was failure to show any deficiencies. On the question of Dominion political lines in local affairs, the Government had a distinct policy. The Government's belief was that there was sufficiently important business in the Assembly and to be dealt with by the Government upon which party divisions could arise, and when the divisions came the Government would be prepared to take their own part and fight out their own side. But they would oppose the introduction of lines and names and cries which had nothing to do with the business entrusted to the Government and to the House. The single item of suggested deficiency in their policy was in respect of immigration. In one sense the Government did not have a policy on that subject. They attempted nothing in the way of fitting out agents to scour the byways of the world, and compel people to come here. They did not have a policy because they did not have jurisdiction. In the North-West constitution the subject of immigration was expressly left out. They had no legal right to deal with the subject. But on the other hand even if they had the right they would not do differently. Their policy relating to immigration, for they had a policy, was a solid policy to attempt to meet the needs of the people who are in th ecountry and the people who may come to the Territories, by providing roads, bridges and means of communication, schools and other useful institutions throughout the country so as to be available for all, even for those settled in remote parts; to provide economical and efficient administration of the laws, and to make good laws suitable and applicable to the peculiar and particular conditions of the Territories The Government did not propose legislation because similar laws had been adopted in Ontario or anywhere else. They endeavored to make laws suitable to the conditions of the people and localities of this country. They believed that this was a good immigration policy,- to provide ready means of communication to the country, to promote a harmonious state of society, and to assist in making the conditions of the communities of the country such that people could live in them and be prosperous and contended. They provided roads and bridges, good schools and good Institutions of all necessary, advisable and possible kinds, with this object. They offered to people seeking homes a country free from debt and practically free from taxation; and the Government believed that, in the financial position of the Assembly, their immigration policy was the best which could be devised for years to come. Mr. Haultain thanked the house for the patient hearing given an exceedingly long and, he was afraid, dry speech. He had detailed the Estimates, and hoped he had not overlooked any material fact or important point. He trusted that the Estimates would meet the views of the House and if passed adequately meet the idea of helping all the interests of the country and maintain efficiently the public service. Having spoken a little more than three hours the Premier sat down amid the enthusiastic plaudits of the members.
said that in the absence of the leader of the Opposition and his first lieutenant, it would devolve upon himself to make some reply to the able deliverance the House had listened to, and he felt quite unequal to the task. However, he had always assumed the role of opposition to his friend the hon. leader of the Government. He recognised in Mr. Haul- tain an able leader,- the ablest man in the House and the best fitted to fulfill the duties of the position he occupied. But there was necessity for some opposition. It did not matter how good a Government was, there were bound to be some flaws in its acts,- something to pick a hole in, and to which improvement might be suggested. But to criticise so able and lucid an exposition as given that day by Mr. Haultain was not an easy matter. He would have to go back to last year's Estimates for points to criticse. The leader had made very clear explanation of the necessity of increase in the civil service, but he thought the increase was going beyond the ability of the country. There was no tangible evidence of increase in the population equal to the increase in the service. He could not understand why the departmental work had grown so largely. The Government were lavish and extravagant in the salaries. These should not be gauged by salaries paid in the East.
Mr. Haultain- Certainly not, they should be larger here.
Mr. Mowat thought they should be gauged by the ability of the country to pay. He admitted that living costs a little more here. They had one official drawing more salary than the leader of the Government.
Mr. Haultain- That may easily be re- mended.
Mr. Mowat thought the members of the Government were getting as much as the country could afford to pay. If they were in the East undoubtedly they would be worth higher salaries, because the provinces were better able to pay. When the Government saw ahead financial hard times, as the House had been told, they should have guarded against that day by curtailing the expenses. Another official drawing a high salary was the deputy public works commissioner. He would not deprecate the best man for the position, and, in the rich provinces, would be worth all he received [?] the Territories could not afford to pay such high-priced men. Mr. Mowat condemned the Government because the Consolidated Ordinances were not printed. The expenditure upon the consolidation last year was largely wasted. The Government had of course explained the failure to print. They said tenders were called, and the lowest tenderer refused to agree to turn out the work within the time desired. Even after the explanation he (Mr. Mowat) still felt that some other reason existed. Perhaps the time limit was put on to prevent the successful tenderer from doing the work. The Government said that other tenderers were ready to do it within the time. Mr. Mowat believed there was one other party who could do it because he had a great part of the work up in type. Possibly the Government knowing this and wanting their favorite to get the work put on the time limit for the purpose of giving their friend the contract.
Mr. Haultain- Name the friend.
Mr. Mowat - Make your own inference.
Mr. Haultain- By what we are hearing this afternoon, it is hard to know who are one's friends.
Mr. Mowat- Oh, you have quite a number.
Mr. Haultain- Hear, hear.
Turning to the matter of the Peace River road expenditure, Mr., Mowat noticed that the House heard none of the eloquence which the member for Victoria and other Northern Alberta members poured fourth last year respecting the Edmonton route. The Assembly had been lamentably short sighted in voting money towards that road. The money was thrown away. Parties who were misled and who went in by Edmonton were now coming back and cursing the route. The House no doubt felt the humiliation of the mistake. Anyway the silence on the subject of the Edmonton route this session was a great contrast to the noise made last session. The Commissioner of Public Works had had a pleasant excursion over the road, but the House had got no inkling relating to the trip, excepting its cost ($100). Be could not cavil at the cost.
Mr. Maloney- Very cheap.
Mr. Maloney said the opening of the road put more money in Mr. Maloney's district than was justifiable. He had noticed last year that Mr. Maloney had been hobnobbing a great deal with the Commissioner no doubt making good use of Irish blarney. The result was to be seen in the amounts spent in St. Albert. Mr. Mowat condemned the taking over of the Irrigation administration. The Government refused to touch immigration, quite rightly. They should have refused to touch irrigation as well. It was argued that irrigation was an assistance to certain settlers, but the interest and assistance were not wide spread. In any case the settlers were not deprived of irrigation before. There had been irrigation legislation for several years. The taking over of the department was premature. It was another department taken over unnecessarily before the time was ripe. Referring to what he termed the very able reports of Mr. Dennis respecting the benefits of the transfer. Mr. Mowat said he thought that Mr. Dennis, would he advised that the administration could be done at Regina for half what it as costing at Ottawa, was looking out for himself. It was a mistake to accept the administration for less than it had been costing. Ever cent should have been demanded. And he believed that Mr. Dennis was getting an extra $900 through the transfer. ( Several members,- Hear, hear.) Mr. Mowat held that the deputy commissioner should give his whole time to the department for which the Assembly paid him $2,000. The Public Works Estimates were so mixed that Mr. Mowat could not understand them nor distinguish them. Each member might be able to find his own, but one could not tell what the other fellow was getting. It was bad policy to imitate the provincial and Dominion plan of making the Estimates intricate.
Mr. Maloney - How did you manage to find the St. Albert items?
Mr. Mowat found fault became no printed statement of the estimated revenues had been given the House. (Mr. Haultain at once sent to Mr. Mowat a type written statement.) He had no fault to find with Mr. Robson's appointment as law clerk. He had recognised as far back as his first session in the House the serious need of a law clerk. The first break he made in the House was with a new school bill, the provisions of which bill he took pride in saying were still the main provisions of the school law. In fact the school law emanated from himself, although somewhat improved since he introduced it. But when he brought in that bill and ever since he had seen the need of a law clerk. The appointment was a good one. Mr. Robson was one of the ablest lawyers in the country. He had known him from boyhood, and had the greatest respect for him both in regard to ability and application. He did not agree with the next appointment, that of Mr. Peterson as Agriculture deputy. What were his qualifications? With a small primitive department it was a mistake to allot a salary as high as $1,200. The department was only of minor importance as yet.
Hon. members- No, no.
As to public works Mr. Mowat had no complaint to make for his own district. He admitted that the princple of not equally dividing between electoral districts was proper. In the Education items the Premier had omitted to explain the vote for paying certain district debentures; he had not referred to that among the various policies he enunciated. Mr. Mowat opposed the principle of paying the debenture indebtedness of school districts which have failed through the removal of inhabitants. It was a dangerous precedent to establish. The money lenders when they advance money know the risks they assume, and should bear the risks. He could see no reason for the vote. The plan to initiate agricultural experimental work he also opposed. That matter devolved upon the Dominion. The Dominion's work at Indian Head was bearing good results. The North-West lacked the means to cope with such, and the vote the House was asked to pass was too small to do any good. He looked at the scheme as an election dodge. The policy would he heralded in the newspapers. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry would think they had just the ability for farm instructors and just the right farm for the experiments, and they would apply to Mr. Ross, who with $2,500 was going to do the whole business. Mr. R as would say, Just hold on, we can't attend to this thing all at once. Before the refusal would have to be given the elections would be over. If the Assembly could prevail on the Dominion to spread their experiments, it would be good policy. He would favor asking the Dominion to do so, and it would be all right to assist the Dominion with $2,500, but he thought that amount unaided would not accomplish much. He had heard they were to have a new scheme respecting agricultural societies. Where was it gone to? Mr. Ross had submitted a printed plan or sketch of a new scheme before the Agricultural Committee; he seemed to have taken back water. Personally he approved the scheme, and only wished Mr. Ross had had the back bone to press it. On the Yukon question Mr. Mowat said he had never questioned the advisability of the Government's policy. They were to be commended for grappling with the situation. His objection was that action was not taken early enough, and he could not agree with the Premier's statement that the Legislature had no power to pass ordinances on the subject of Yukon liquor. He claimed that the Legislature had the power after the 1st Oct., 1897. The Government should have taken the House into its confidence. The House rose on 15th Dec., and on 28th Dec. orders in council were being passed. The claim was made that the Government could not act because they were poverty stricken. Mr Haultain certainly knew that the $6,000 was coming.
Mr. Haultain - No.
Mr. Mowat said the Government knew that the Lieut.-Governor had been issuing liquor permits.
Mr. Haultain - No.
Mr. Mowat held that in any caase the Government should have got the sanction of the House for their course. It was strange that of the emissaries sent out a part had returned and of the other part they could get no word. There was something wrong. There was a nigger in the fence. The Government should feel anxious in that peculiar circumstance. He expected that they would have sent a special messenger to meet Mr. Bulyea and hurry him up. He would like to know where Bulyea was. Perhaps he was afraid to come back and give an account. Bulyea was a strong temperance man and perhaps had made a muddle of the business. Perhaps he had instituted a temperance question or a question of prohibition in the Yukon. Concluding, Mr. Mowat said he would like to go at the Executive Council, but they were good fellows, and in one way he hated to pitch into them. Now that he was leaving the House, he hoped that he enjoyed their good will. They had had their tilts, and often he had beencalled down, but he was not thin skinned. The five executive councillors were men of ability. In fact he thought that the ability of the House sat on the right side of Mr. Speaker, where he himself had his seat. Mr. Haultain was a good first minister, and Mr. Ross was capable, amiable and agreeable first lieutenant. Of the remaining members, one perhaps devoted a little too much attention to bridging in Mitchell district; aother was hidden away in the golden north. With the fifth (Mr. Magrath) he had a tilt recently, but was free to say he believed Mr. Magrath was a good, honest, representative, although he perhaps did look after the interests of his employers too much, as was evidenced by his frequent absences from the House and also by some of the bills he introduced in the House. Mr. Mowat said he expected to get round shot and shell in return for his crticisms, but he would endeavor to take the dose with good nature. (Applause.)
said that he believed the members for both South and North Regina would have no objection to doing away entirely with the district of St. Albert. If Mr. Mowat would study the report of the Commissioner of Public Works upon the amount Statute of Labor done in St. Albert and compare it with the work in South Regina, he would get a better idea of the reason for the difference in the grants if there was a difference. If Mr. Mowat had looked after South Regina as keenly as he was looking after St. Albert, Mr. Maloney thought he might be living there yet instead of leaving the district to look after itself. Reffering to Mr. Mowat's attack on the Peace River road, Mr. Maloney said that a portion of the road was in his district. Mr Ross had had travelled two or three hundred miles in St. Albert, but had seen only a small portion of the district. It as a district entitled to a good grant. The Statute Labour re[prt showed that in St. Albert before the matter became compulsory more work was done voluntarily in one season than was done in South Regina and and several other districts in many seasons. He knew nothing about any hobnobbing with the Commisioner. Mr. Mowat had given a sermon in the agriculture line. If in the celebrated school bill, which he had boasted about, he had provided for agriculture in the schools, there would not be so much need now for an agricultural policy. As to the Yukon route Mr. Maloney said it was through no fault of the Edmonton route that people turned back. The road from Edmonton to St. Albert was not a hard road, but some of the people who thought to go to Yukon were unfit and unable to follow the telegraph line from Edmonton to St. Albert. Men who knew how to travel succeeded on the Edmonton route, and he could show some preoceeds from the efforts of one man whpo went in that way. (Mr. Maloney exhibited a nugget attached to his chain). On the whole Mr. Maloney felt like complimenting the member for South Regina who always manged to say something; whether what he said was to the point or not was of course a different matter.
At 5:30 o'clock Mr. Speaker left the chair. When the House resumed at 8 o'clock the first member to take the floor was
who replied to statements made Mr. Mowat against the Peace River road. Mr. Tims considered the expenditure had been petty considering the importance of the work. The road had no necessary bearing on the Yukon route question. Ten years ago, before the Yukon was heard of, the opening of a road to Peace River had been petitioned for. There were extensive settlements at Peace River er and also Slave Lake. At Peace River there was three mills, and at Slave Lake there was a mill. Mills were not erected and operated where there were no settlers. But the settlements were handicapped by having no outlet except by water. The opening of the road had benefited not only Peace River but Edmonton and Canada at large. Many who went in this year with their minds set on gold, when they saw the kind of country there was at Peace River decided to commence farming there, and the opened up a country which would be a source of wealth to the Dominion. In opening the road the Assembly was looking after the interests of the people who, although in a remote part, were just as much citizens of the Territories as any other people. As to the miners, so so-called miners, who were returning unsuccessful, Mr. Tims said that of the men who went into the northern district to search for gold, not one in ten was a genuine miner, and many of them were unfitted to be let loose outside of city limits. In March last the Town of Edmonton engaged Mr. W. Taylor to make a trip to Pelly Banks. He made the trip, went 30 miles down the Pelly river, and was back at Edmonton in July, which proved that the road was not extremely difficult for anyone who knew how to travel. Mr. Tims was glad that the Commissioner of Public Works had had the courage of of his convictions to proceed with the opening of the Peace River road, and had had the pluck as well to make a trip over the road. Mr. Ross and Mr. McCauley made the trip over 260 miles of the road in six days- not bad travelling. Mr. Tims gave details of some of the business which the opening of the road had already created, showing that from points in Manitoba, also Battleford, Qu'Appelle, India Head, horses and stock had been sent in,- a movement which the road was wholly to be credited with. He computed that $100,000 in cash had be circulated this year by it. Dr. Dawson stated that the best place to prospect for coarse gold was juts over the first range of mountains. From Peace River access could be had to that region; it was only 300 miles from Peace River, through a country open to either wagon road or railway. From  Peace River there was access also up the Nelson river, and up a branch to the west of Fort Halkett; and up the Liard Valley on to Lake Francis, and to the head waters of the Yukon. No wiser expenditure had been made than that upon the opening of the road. Before sitting down the speaker heartily congratulated Mr. Haultain upon his able, concise and businesslike speech on the budget.
expressed gratification with Mr. Haultain's very clear statement of the affairs of the Territories. He endorsed the Yukon policy, and thought action had been taken justin the nick of time. The mission had proved a success financially and otherwise. The institution of an Agri [?] Department Mr. Agnew believed was a good move. At present the great majority of farmers never get to see the experimental farms. He believed the scheme for promotion of stock interests feasible. The heavy freights prevented stockmen from bringing in thoroughbreds sires The barrier had already been partially removed by the railway companies, but it was high yet, and the Government's plan would be a great assistance. He was satisfied with the brands registration and with its administration; and his wonder was that a law clerk had not been engaged long ago; many errors of legislation might have been saved. The increase in schools and the number of higher class teachers was bound to be pleasing to all He regretted that no mention had been made of the French settlement schools. Mr. Haultain had visited those settlements, and Mr. Agnew had expected to hear that the schools would be re-opened; they ought to be re-opened with teachers having both languages. The people were unable to provide their own teachers, and unable to carry on the business of a school district. Their farms were very small; the hunting and freighting they were now deprived of. Their old modes of livelihood had been taken away from them. The children were no duller than others, and should not be deprived of education. The parents were anxious that their children should be taught English as well as French, recognising that English was the chief language of the country. Mr. THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, SEPTEMBER 29, 1898 11 Agnew opposed the payment of defunct school district debentures, commended the proposal to obtain in you Territorial map. As to the salary of the deputy in the agricultural department, he thought it looked large, but if the gentleman was qualify for the position it was not large and of two complaint against. He noticed an item of $75.00 for a Speaker's chair. That was not a large sum for a good chair, but care should be exercised in its selection. There was a small man in the House who wore a hat so large that it had to be padded: perhaps the man expected the head to swell, but it was impossible-the head was already as large as it would ever be. In buying a chair, one should be got which would not need to be padded.
Hon. members - Order, order.
Mr. Speaker-The point of order is not well taken. The hon. gentleman own sense of good taste will prevent him making any statement against one whose position prevents any reply.
Mr. Agnew - I am very sorry. Mr. Speaker, that your position muzzles you. After brief references to the hospitals items, and to the work of agricultural societies, Mr. Agnew concluded his remarks.
has not great fault to find the supplementary estimates. The first grant for the salary of a law clerk supplied a long felt want. He had used to feel, particularly before the constitution was changed and when he had been personally as much responsible for legislation as the members of the executive committee, that he was at a loss because of the lack of some legal man around the House to whom all the members would have a right to go to get their ideas put in proper legislative form. But before entering upon any remarks, Mr. Eakin felt that he should compliment the hon. leader upon the speech he had made that day. Mr. Eakin had heard speeches by the renowned men in other Assemblies and Parliaments: and he had never heard a more lucid explanation of any position than Mr. Haultain had given that day, - a statement and a speech which would have been creditable in any Parliament in Canada. If in time Mr. Haul- tain decided so choose a different or a large sphere, Mr. Eakin had no doubt that he would be found fitted for spheres even more exalted than the one he now occupied. Respecting Mr. Peterson had brought order out of chaos in the brand matter, and had been able to put the system on an orderly and businesslike basis. Perhaps the Government had been a little premature in changing the system, or had not given themselves long enough time to bring about the change; but it was easier to tear than to mend a hole. If the House had taken more time in putting through the mass of legislation passed last year, there might be less time required this year considering these laws. But no doubt many mistakes would have been avoided if they had had a deputy Attorney General. On the Yukon question he held that the Government was perfectly excusable, considering all the circumstances, in not having made up its mind in time to take the House into its confidence last year. The right action had at all events been taken. There was no possibility of preventing liquor going into the Yukon. If prohibition had been attempted, high wines and spirits danger- out to health and life would have been smuggled in. He would have censured the Government if action had not been taken to regulate the traffic. From the moral point of view their course was commendable. The N.W.M. Police could carry out regulations, but could not make regulations. Mr. Eakin did not want Me. Mowat to leave the country without full credit for the school bill he had introduced; but he had learned before he ever came to Regina; that Mr. Moway was only a sort of godfather to the bill, which had been largely compiled by a legal gentleman in the House.
Mr. Mowat - I deny that.
Mr. Eakin cheerfully accepted the denial. In any eveny very important principles of the school law had been changed since Mr. Mowat's bill came down, and for the changes the Government and other members were responsible. All the members were entitled to some credit for the legislation on the statute books. Up to last year ever member was responsible for legislation. Formerly there were 29 equally responsible legislators. All had the privilege and the duty, equally with the Government, to bring in bills. Within the one year since full responsible government came in vogue, there had been two sessions; and in these sessions the Government had shown a spirit of commendable progress. They were to be congratulated upon their ideas of development; and upon the modification and simplification of the laws, so that he who ran might read. The educational progress was gratifying and was the direct result of the new system of grants. This year only 18 per cent, of lowest grade teachers were in the service. The old system paid by standards, not by grades. Under the present system trustees could engage 2nd class teachers at no greater cost to the district than 3rd class; and they thus got better eduction. The country schools especially required well qualified teachers, because in the country schools one teacher had to handle all the standards. Mr. Eakin did not wholly approve the present system of public works administration in all its bearings. The district engineers' work was not altogether a success. In this sparsely settled country, with people living so far apart, it was sometimes impossible to get tender and contract work done reasonably. He had two cases in mind. Only two men tendered, and their figured were far above the engineer's estimate. The reasonable belief was that the contractors had made a combination. Then again the district engineers had such extensive districts that they could not pay full attention to all parts. The system needed some change. Where the Statute Labour Overseer was a good man, would it not be possible to employ him? Mr. Eakin warmly approved of day labor in preference to tenders. In view of the failure to print the Consolidated Ordinances this year, it was unfortunate that more copies of last year's Ordinances were not obtained for distribution. Inability to procure printed copies of the law had caused some dissatisfaction. If the Brand Ordinance had been put in the hands of the people much anxiety would have been relived. He regretted Mr. Mowat's allusion to the Public Works deputy. His own impression was that, judging by his ability and the value of his work, Mr. Dennis was the most ill-paid man in the service. Mr. Dennis was one who did not spare himself; his illness last summer had been directly due to overwork. Mr. Mowat's insinuation about the $900 he absolutely refused to believe, although he had no information about the matter. But if his ability to judge character was any good at all, he knew that Mr. Dennis was not a man who would do such a thing. He approved the plan to encourage improved stock breeding, but wanted to know how the plan was to be carried out.
Would the money be divided between districts? or would every man who applied be attended to until the money was exhausted? If so, one wide-awake section might derive the whole benefit. He was not much in favor of the experimental work policy. The Dominion had undertaken that work, and Prof. Robertson said they were going to carry on on the very lines here proposed. He had not implicit faith in experiments. The experimenters once found a better wheat than Red Fyfe, but he noticed that both for output and price Red Fyfe was still king. A few years ago Brome grass was found to be the great thing, but this year Mr. McKay told him it had been a failure. Except for a few kinds of grains and grasses, he feared the small sum voted would not be of much use; and to-day we had heard that money was not likely to be plentiful in the immediate future. He questioned the wisdom of going in for a scheme which they might be unable to follow up. The most important question of the day was the position of the Territories. All other considerations amounted to little in comparison with the matter of looking forward to provincial status. He believed that the present subsidy was spent to the very best advantage, and believed that the people were well satisfied with the present simple form of government. Until they could see a substantial advantage in a change, they would not favor it. Mr. Eakin thought it was too early for the change. The whole question should be maturely considered. Four years from now it might be submitted to the people. He admitted that Mr. Haultain's argument respecting the necessities of the schools was very strong. The rungs of the ladder planted in the common schools should lead the child who wished to climb up to the university. If the alternative was to lessen the school grants or go in for provincial establishment, there would be no room for choice. But they should first ask the Dominion to give all the Territories are entitled to, and remain as we were as long as possible. Of course, if the Dominion would hand over the lands and minerals, even though much of them had been squandered on corporations, he would say, Go in for provincial establishment right now. However, the advantages and disadvantages would have to be fully discussed before the step could be taken.
DR. PATRICK (YORKTON) spoke as a comparatively new member. He had read that great latitude was allowed on the motion to go into supply. but confessed that he had had no idea of the length to which members might go. He was satisfied with the civil service policy of the Government—with the manner of appointment, and with the plan of paying good salaries to good men. The Rt. Hon. Joseph Chamberlain had explained the reason of the better management of public institutions in Great Britain than in the United States, by the statement that in Great Britain it was the policy to employ technical men for technical work and when the best available man was secured, he was paid whatever salary was necessary to retain him. It appeared to Dr. Patrick that the North-West Government had adopted this wise policy. Their head in the Education branch was a man of unquestioned reputation, whose mere presence in the Territories drew attention to the country. His salary was not any too large for a man of his standing. If it was an evil thing to pay the official a higher salary than was paid the political head, there was a remedy to be found in a different direction than suggested by Mr. Mowat. He had been himself very favorably impressed by the courteous, careful and complete replies received from the department over which Mr. Dennis was placed, a department which handled an immense volume of business connected with statute labor and other public works. He understood the department had been bringing up also arrears of work, and he had no difficulty in believing that the illness from which Mr. Dennis suffered was the result of over work; his illness had been a loss, and the Government would likely have heard him (Dr. Patrick) growling only that he knew Mr. Dennis was ill. Mr. Mowat admitted his believe that Mr. Dennis earned the salary; it followed that there must be work for him to do. If there was not work he could not earn his salary. It followed again that if the salary was not paid the work would be left undone. Mr. Peterson, the Agriculture deputy, was a new man, not a native Canadian, but a Dane. Such being the case, it was patent that no family " pull " or influence gave him the position. He must have gained the position by some reason existing in himself. It spoke well for a foreigner that he was able to rise in this way by his own worth. He had been sizing up Mr. Peterson and was very favorably impressed. He noticed since Mr. Peterson's entry into the office an improvement in the brands business; his communications were business like. He found also that Mr. Peterson had very extensive knowledge of agriculture. It was not easy to get business training and the knowledge of agriculture together. The House, proceeded Dr. Patrick, had been told by the leader in his very clear statement that the Territories were verging upon provincial establishment, that the time would soon come when the revenue derived under the present system would prove insufficient for the requirements. It was certain that money could not be paid out if it did not come in. The possibilities of the widow's erase had no application in these days so far as governments were concerned. The sources of revenue were local and federal. Besides what came from Parliament, there were only the fees from licenses and other odd fees. Then there was the plan of direct taxation. The license fees would not increase relatively to the expenditure. Taxation would be a fertile source of revenue if all the lands were available; but it would be unfair to tax the small landlords while the corporation landowners were able to evade the tax. Again, there was the plan of borrowing money. While he would oppose any reckless borrowing, yet he could see a justification in borrowing against the day when all these lands would be available for taxation. Practically we had to look for revenue to Dominion grant or subsidy, or to borrowing. He inferred that Mr. Haultain believed that under provincial establishement out subsidy would be greater than we can expect Parliament to grant under present conditions. He would be sorry to see the day of reckless borrowing, and the longer that they day was put off the better. The population was very small yet to be given the borrowing power; and too large a proportion were squatters or men with grazing leases who had no absolute permanent stake and might move away. Manitoba was placed under debt - he was not saying whether wisely or not - by men who are not now in the province. Joseph Martin was an instance; he was gone from the province, but the debt remained. Aside from the advisability of going into debt, it was not good public policy to place unrestricted borrowing power even indirectly in the reach of a people many of whom have not definite ly decided to make their home in the country. When the time comes for establishment there might be a suggestion that a more equitable division of the original Hudson's Bay Co.'s territory would have to be made. If there had to be further division the eastern territory would prefer to have two provinces made of the Territories than be forced to go into Manitoba. There was this point in favor of such a proposition: Every province received a certain subsidy for the support of government and legislature. Two provinces would receive for these purposed twice as much as one province, but of course there would be some additional expense borne by Canada. One province would undoubtedly best serve the interests of the North-West Territories for all time to come. Before any serious endeavor for establishment, every means, short of that, to get the necessary revenue should have been exhausted. Dr. Patrick wanted a clearer statement from the Premier as to the exercise of the borrowing power which provincial establishment would bring. Would he advocate having any limitation placed on the borrowing power?
thought the hon. member from Macleod deserved the congratulations of the House and country for his clear budget statement. There was also another member in the Government upon whose presence there the House also had reason to congratulate itself.- that was the hon. member for Moose Jaw. He was an experienced member; he had grown up with the Assembly; he had proved to be a man of practical ability well worthy of his position, and had carried on the affairs of his important departments to the satisfaction of the Assembly and the people of the country. Of the illness of the most capable deputy head of the Public Works department, Mr. Meyers had heard with regret. There was no doubt that the illness was caused by overwork, and he was very glad that Mr. Dennis was again able to give the country the benefit of his very valuable services. Mr. Meyers believed in the principle of securing good men and paying them well. He did not think that Mr. Dennis was receiving an adequate salary. The salary asked to be voted to Mr. Peterson was not large. From all he had seen of the Agricultural deputy he believed he was a very satisfactory man. The general policy of the Government had been already well discussed, and as he had little to find fault with and few new points to suggest, he would not take up the time of the House.
MR. MCDONALD (FT. QU'APPELE) said that one of the interesting topics during the past year and a half had been whether the enlarged powers had been used to advantage, and in relation to the Government and members of the Legislature the question would shortly be answered by the people. The leader had aptly pointed to the statutes for the policy of the Government. It was by the Ordinances that the Assembly met the requirements of the country. The statute labor law was a good sample, which furnished the most economical means ever exposed in any country of doing road improvements. The Village law, the Municipal law, the School law and others could be pointed to as embodying policy, -very expedient and advisable policy. As conditions changed and the country developed, the laws were changed from time to time to meet new conditions. Although the House was not voting full. Estimates, and for that reason all the more gratifying, a new vote was asked for the promotion of the agricultural and ranching interests. To the smaller and isolated stockmen the scheme of assistance would prove particularly beneficial, He believed the idea underlying the scheme was correct. Some years ago Canadian cattle commanded the highest price in Engladn, but of late years, although exportation, particularly from the North-West, was increasing, the quality had fallen to second places. He was gratified also with the proposal to initiate agricultural experiments. The only criticism of the plan was that it was not large enough. He believed himself there would be ground for criticism if the vote was not increased in succeeding years. He believed the settlers of the country would appreciate this work. The cost of experiments ought to borne by the Government. To depend on philanthropy was all right if the bill was filled; but the Government had a duty to further the interests of the country. Making comparison with government in Manitoba, Mr. McDonald found that the North-West Estimates this year just about equalled Manitoba's in 1884. With a revenue of half a million dollars Manitoba in 1884 spent upon its civil service $57,000. The Territorial Government spend less than half that amount. Manitoba aided schools to the extent of $70,000; the Territories are this year giving $139,000, just about double. The critics should consider some of those points. These facts were likely to affect the Territorial view on the question of annexation to Manitoba. There might be some temptations in regard to railway extensions, but there would be decided educational and taxation disadvantages. He had been elected on a platform of one province for the Territories, and he would uphold that principle. Mr. McDonald, referring to the new Brand law, hoped the Government would not fall to see that men who had made due application and remitted fees before the change, and who had received back neither brand nor fees, would now be given a proper return; he would not be satisfied until they were. He also strongly advocated the taking of steps which would lead to the sale of certain of the school lands without loss of time. The lands in settled districts, as for instance around Indian Head and QuèAppelle, should be sold. The opening of the lands to settlement and taxation would be of assistance to the school and local improvement districts. In conclusion, Mr. McDonald said that during his term in the House he had endeavored to judge all questions by their merits without regard to their source. He had been elected as an independent member, and he had in a majority of cases been compelled to give the Government his support because their estimates and their legislation were in the right direction. So long as affairs were conducted in the same way by the Government he would continue to support them. The work of the district engineers had perhaps not come up to expectations, but that was a matter of detail. The fault seemed to be a fault of economy. There was only one engineer where two were needed.
It was nearly 10 o'clock when the Commissioner of Public Works and Agriculture
took the floor which he held, and held the House interested, for almost two hours. He said that the House recognised with pleasure the fact that Canada as a whole could be congratulated upon having entered an era of almost unequalled prosperity. The Dominion had gained a proud position, and was now taking a foremost part in the councils of the Empire. Canada was recognized as the first of the colonies and everywhere were parked evidence of prosperity. As impetus had been given to all lines and branches of business. The manufacturing industries were flourishing and the factory men were enlarging and extending their factories and operations to cope with the improved possibilities of trade. The importers of the Dominion were experiencing the same gratifying improvement, and all the mercantile classes and men in every branch of trade and business were feeling the effects of the "growing time." The North-West Territories were to be congratulated as well, for the same evidence of prosperity were to be seen here. Agricultural conditions had never been so flourishing and favorable; the prospects had never been equal to present prospects. Farm products were found to be of enhanced value, and the returns were generous and encouraging. The stock raising industry was in the same favorable condition. The value of cattle was high, and there had been nothing to interfere with a good calf crop. Even the Assembly which was not usually directly affected by the fluctuations of trade, commerce or agriculture, found itself in a flourishing state financially, according to the budget brought down by his colleague the hon. member for Macleod. The House had good reason to be proud of a leader who could make so lucid a statement and so able an exposition of the affairs of the country as the member for Macleod had done that morning. It was satisfactory to the members, and he felt sure that it would be satisfactory to the people of the country when they read it. But the country would be more satisfied with it if they could have heard it. The country might be assured that the colleagues of the hon. leader of the Government fairly hugged themselves with satisfaction every time he took the floor and proved anew his ability to deal with force and intelligence with the affairs of the Territories. Some cries were heard outside about silent members, about lack of criticism, about one man power, and about the undue power of the Government. He did not know whether those cries were worth denying. As a matter of fact, that Assembly was not a silent Assembly. The members of the House might not blot on every opportune and inopportune occasion, but it was a House in which was heard, and heard frequently, in fact, continually, intelligent discussion and criticism of legislation and of administration. He could say this as a member who had been in the Assembly or the North-West Council for a continuous period of fifteen years, and who had been regularly in his place in the House for seventeen consecutive sessions. To the members as much as to the Government was due the credit for whatever was good in the legislation and statutes, and as a member of the Government he was pleased to acknowledge the fact that the memberss of the House had at all times shown a desire and a willingness to give suggestions and to lend the benefit of their best advice towards the improvement of legislation and in the interest of the common cause of the Territories. In every Council and in every Assembly to which he had belonged, during 15 years and throughout 17 sessions, he could bear testimony to the fact that at all times and on every occasion the members as a whole had bent their energies and their abilities -and that there were good abilities was amply attested by the character of the laws and the excellence of the institutions thought out, framed and formed- in the best interests of the Territories. Turning to the Estimates Mr. Ross said that the hon. leader had gone so thoroughly and clearly into them, that he would not take up the time of the House in going over the same ground.
Mr. Mowat had complained that the expenses of the public works department had increased. It could not be gainsaid. There were more officials in the department than formerly. It fact there had been no such thing as a public works department until this Government organised it last year. Before that a member of the Executive Committee had in a certain way looked after the expenditure upon public works, and each member of the House had been a member of a public works committee, and did according to his own sweet will with the moneys apportioned to his district. The necessity of changing the system and organising a department was recognised. He did not know but that the organization had been accomplished just about as soon as was advisable. At any rate it was decided to organised a department, and to himself was entrusted the duty. He first looked around fro a technical officer. He did not pretend himself to know particularly anything about the technical part. After looking around he discovered in Mr. Dennis one whom he thought was the right man and he believed he had not been mistaken. Mr. Dennis was well equipped with a general knowledge of this country, gained in connection with the Surveys branch of the Interior Department; he had visited every portion of the Territories, and he (Mr. Ross) did not believe there was any other man in Canada who had as thorough knowledge of the Territories as Mr. Dennis. The Government had found him simply invaluable. He was thoroughly well equipped, too, in other ways. Personally he had received an incalculable amount of assistance from Mr. Dennis. When petitions came in for works in any part, Mr. Dennis would be found to have knowledge of the very locality, and was able to give sound opinions, altogether apart from his office duties Mr. Mowat had condemned the high salary. Mr. Ross believed that a good man should be paid a good salary. Poorly paid work was not likely to be well done. He did not consider that Mr. Dennis was receiving the salary which he deserved. He considered that the Territories and the Government were very fortunate in securing Mr. Denis. The Interior Department had been extremely anxious to retain him, going to the length of offering to increase his salary. The Minister of the Interior had bery kindly lent Mr. Dennis to the North-West Government for a time to give them the benefit of his experience and ideas in the organisation of the department, but the Minister had been very desirous to retain him in the Irrigation branch, and even after Mr. Dennis decided to come to the North-West Government the Minister desired him to keep control of the Irrigation branch and paid him $900 a year for directing that service. Mr. Ross said he had exercised all this ingenuity to advance arguments to induce Mr. Dennis to become deputy commissioner of public works, and he was pleased and satisfied that he had induced him to come. In connection with the references made to Mr. Dennis's reports favoring the Irrigation transfer. Mr. Ross said he hoped the Mr. Mowat did not mean to insinuate that Mr. Dennis got up the memos for the purpose of securing more salary for himself; if he did he was entirely wrong. Mr. Dennis was receiving the $900 on account of the Irrigation work before the transfer; in that regard the change made no difference to Mr. Dennis. The Interior Department had such confidence in him that they were willing that he should oversee their irrigation business after he came to the North-West Government. There were excellent reasons for this Government to desire the control of the
Excepting to a very small extent in British Columbia, irrigation was a subject affecting no part of Canada but the Territories. To the Territories it was a question of local importance. The local Government was in close touch with the people interested, and therefore better calculated to manage the system from the point of view of the people's convenience. At Ottawa the administration was only a side issue, and was very liable to fail to receive the attention that it would be given by a government more closely in touch with the people affected. This Government made their proposition with a view to gain full control of the administration, They did not succeed wholly, but had been put in the position of agents for the Interior Department, which in reality did give them the privilege of control and management. The change put the North- West Government in control of water rights. This was important to the eastern part as well as the west apart altogether from the question of irrigation. They were desirous of improving the water supply throughout the country which was one of the most important problems in the country. The change removes the necessity of applications for water rights going to Ottawa a tedious and inconvenient course. Such applications may now be made to, and can be decided upon at Regina, much more expeditiously. The Government took the ground that they should have control of all matters of purely Territorial or local importance, and would endeavor to get control of all of these matters. In the irrigation administration they had the wedge well driven in already, and hoped soon to gain complete control. Considerable had already been done in the western part of the country in the way of irrigation. There are 135 ditches and canals constructed, covering a distance of 280 miles. These canals represent a cost of at least $120,000, and a point worthy of note was that in connection with them neither this nor any Government had ever been asked for a cent's bonus. Farmers were bonused in connection with creameries and experimental forms were established at public cost in the interest of agriculturists, but not a cost of public money had been given to the people who were making the experiment of applying water on the arid lands in the Territories. He thought that great credit was due the men who were showing the pluck to take the risks of this new departure in Canada, and hoped that before long something might be done in their assistance. Commencing last year surveys were being made of all the streams and water courses between Moose Jaw and Yorkton with a view to the development of a scheme for reservoiring water for the use of settlers. Returning to the public works department, Mr. Ross said he had secured a deputy commissioner and an organised department was the result. Dr. Patrick was perfectly right in his remark about the very great amount work done in the department, and about there being arrears of work to cope with. The arrears were not the fault of anyone. There had been no department before to attend to the work. He gave some statistics to show the amount of work done. For instance within the year the department had received 8000 and had sent out 10,990 letters, and average of 48 per day. Then there were 6000 circulars sent out. The communications altogether averaged 62 per day. Fyles were made to the number of 2735. Previously there had been no fyles, and no records kept. It was a common occurrence for the deputy to come to him saying I've found another bridge this morning, or I've just located another dam. By and by, he supposed, the department would get hold of all the public property; up to date they were constantly finding works of which there had been no record kept. There had been 387 road surveys made and not properly recorded; this involved a very large amount of work. The plans had been in possession of the members, or the engineers. Some were mislaid; some where lost, which was a serious matter. The work had cost about $20,000. What constituted valuable property had been left in scattered hands, and no index or record kept. Another feature of the loss was that some of the surveys had involved the acquirement of lands, where there had to be deviating surveys. Usually the possession had been given for a nominal consideration, sometimes for a dollar, sometimes for no consideration. But now in many cases it is found that the person who have possession is dead or removed, and the new people are not willing to renew the arrangement. It was impossible to estimate the loss caused by failure to find the plans and records in such cases
The department had made 420 survey plans for public works, in addition to 425 special surveys; had awarded 370 contracts; had received 127 applications reopening highways; and 57 applications re the closing of public highways. The western members would be able to appreciate the difficulties in the latter applications. The regular survey system did not well fit the foothill country, where straight roads were not possible. In these questions particularly Mr. Dennis was invaluable. Within the past few months a great many knotty questions had been straightened out. The items of the Estimates, main and supplementary, this year totalled 871 separate works. The correspondence over these alone was no little matter. There had been handled since 1896, no less than 1,300 items of work, involving an expenditure of $318,000. The House would realize that there must be considerable work associated with that amount of expenditure, a great deal of which was upon small works. There had been the examination and passing of 3,500 accounts, and the posting, etc. $2,078 had been received in revenue, which had to be accounted for and attended to. If the expenses of the administration were increasing there was some return from it. This $2,078 would be augmented by about $1000 by tthe end of the year. The departmetn had, and was directing the operation of, 23 road graders and 24 well boring machines. The numbers of the machines were recorded; the department would not lose track of these machines, and no machine would be lost in the future as had once occurred in the past. There were 28 coal mines in the Territories, the inspection of which the department was carrying out. The steam boilers inspection had involved the sending out and the receipt of a large number of application forms. He came now to Statute Labor, a very important branch of the department's work. There were 358 districts organized, with 58 in process, making 416 districts to be in operation next year. The returns from each separate district had to be audited, and the department had to prepare such forms and send out such instructions as to enable intelligent work to be done. These details would give some idea of the work of the department.
The policy of the department was to, as far as possible, elect permanent public works. Whenever feasible, they were putting up steel instead of wooden bridges. At the present low price of steel, a bridge of steel placed on piles could be built for $700 which if made of wood would cost $600. Wooden structures would necessitate continual large votes for repairs. They hoped later to be able to use cement for foundations, so that their bridges would stand for at least 40 years with a renewal of floors. In making distribution of the public works fund the Government kept the whole Territories in view. The district expenditure had been cast aside. It would do Mr. Mowat no good if he were able to pick out what each district got. Expenditures were not made because of the pressure of the members, although that was certainly a factor, and the members were able to give valuable information and advice. But other considerations were given weight. They had the reports of their engineers, and they had their own information and ideas about the respective requirements, to guide the expenditure. It was impossible yet to absolutely follow the rules of spending the money where it would be of greater value, because there were certain requirements in every position which had met; but it was the aim of the department to expend the money only on works of first importance in the different portions of the country. The electoral districts were not considered at all in the distribution. The great divisions, however, were considered. In the west bridges were required, whic they were endeavoring to provide. In the east - the grain growing area - good roads were the requirement, so that farmers might haul large loads and lessen the cost of conveying their grain to market; so in the east the department devoted attention to main highways and trails. They endeavored to encourage the Statute Labor districts to undertake the small works, by spending a certain amount of money in them. They had expended $10,600 through the district Overseers. From last year's returns, when there were 99 districts in operation, it was found that 8,470 days' work was done; 350 miles of road was made; 250 miles of fireguard; 16 bridges were built; five dame built; four dams repaired; 47 culverts made. This year he had reason to believe that fully 1,000 miles of road was made; 600 miles of fireguard; 30 or 40 bridges, probably considerably more; about 100 culverts and 15 or 20 dames; 25,000 days' work was done, worth $37,000. This was good development. Regarding this inspection of public works, he intended to arrange to lessen the cost. The member for Salcoats had referred to the district engineer lacking time to attend to all the work. That was true. He had not felt justified in enlarging the staff, but hoped to work out a better policy for the inspection of small works. He had managed local inspection of $10,000 worth of small works done this year through the Statute Labor districts. The plan answered well. It put the department in closer touch with the Overseer, who became interested in the work and did his best. The department had this year constructed $200,00 worth of works. Works to the value of $50,000 had not required inspection, leaving $150,000 worth of work to be inspected. The cost of inspection was $6,000 - really only $5,000 for $1,000 had gone into bridges. So the inspection after all amounted to only 4 per cent. He thought that was not an unreasonable cost, and could not help thinking that a mistaken impression existed regarding the inspection. But he hoped to do better still. As to the policy of giving contracts by tender,-he knew of an instance where two men put up a job. There was always liability of such occurring; but he could tell the House that day labor was not without its possibilities of collusion either. The department had to contend with these difficulties. This year a large amount of work had been done by day labor; it had been difficult in many cases to get work done at all. The times were so prosperous and men were engaged in other ways; contractors wouldn't tender on the small works done by the Government, and the department had had to fall back on day labor. Or where the tenders received were considered insatisfactory, they would not award the contract, but have the work done by day labor. The works for which money was voted last year were all either completed or well under way,-every piece of work. In no year had so much proportionately been done of the work voted for. The items provided for in the supplementaries would be proceeded with as fast as possible. The Government had no intention of holding any of the work back as an election dodge; they would be careful in every particular piece of work, and if it was found possible to complete it, ti would be completed this yar. He was certain that 90 per cent. of all the work appropriated for in the 16 months would be completed within the time, and even hoped that 100 per cent. would be completed. In dealing with all their work and all their patronage the Government acted in a manner to merit the confidence of the people. The Public Works, together with the Agriculture department, was the largest spending department. The Education department paid out large sums, but it was all paid under Ordinance. It was the greatest departments should be managed on business principles, and they had adopted and strictly adhered to business principles. In consequence they could go before the electors and claim that there could not be a shadow of ground for charges of favoritism against the Government/ A strong plank in the Government's policy was that Dominion party lines should not be recognised in that House. It would be useless to expect that people to believe that the Government was sincere in that stand, if they say that men could come to the Government and because they were Grits or because they were Tories could obtain work or obtain favors from the Government. If the party lines were ever drawn it would be largely on account of the use made by the Government of the patronage at its disposal, and because the people had come to believe that men could get favors from the Government because of their particular stripe. He would
in the House or in the country to show that in any work done by this Government any favoritism was shown in the letting of the contract or in any way. So far as concerned local patronage, and there was considerable at the capital - and for his part he believed that the capital would remain in the same place for a long time to come - he had adopted this principle: If there were two or three men in the line of business, his instructions were to buy from them alternately, to make an equal division. That was fair and proper. Every citizen who was helping to build up town and country had a right to the patronage in equal measure.
In the items the House would see one of $1,000 for repairs to furniture and buildings, and for new furniture for some of the public offices. They contended that the Ottawa Government was under the duty to supply the necessary buildings and furnishings for this local Government. He had applied to the Minister of Public Works at Ottawa for certain improvements, but the application was not heeded; and the local department had been compelled to carry out the improvements. But he was glad to say that the Ottawa authority had since recognised the claim, and although this $1,000 appeared in the Estimates, in reality $886 of the amount had already been repaid by Ottawa. There was $100 to be voted for inspection of coal mines. If their Ordinance was to be of any avail proper inspection of the mines must be made. They had provided for two inspections in the past year and had secured for inspector a man who was very well qualified. Upon the benefit to be derived from the item for a Territorial map, he would not enlarge. some comment had been made upon the item for a Speaker's chair. In all legislatures it was usual at the end of the term for the Speaker to take home the chair and the gown, and Mr. Ross trusted that the House would not deny their Speaker this privilege. Mr. Speaker had filled the responsible and important position to the satisfaction of the House, and was well entitled to the chair to be handed down as an heirloom in his family. (Laughter.) $1000 was providced for Steam Boiler inspection. The House had adopted legislation this session dealing with the matter, from which it was expected the service would more than repay its cost. There was the item to pay one- third of the bonus to a grist mill owner whose mill had been burned; this was not really paying out public money, because the Government had derived the money from insurance on the mill. There was an item of $2,000 for the substructure of a bridge over the Kooteney river. Southern Alberta required and should have large improvements in the way of bridges. The country was traversed by swift and dangerous streams. There had been many drownings. The Dominion authority should have bridged those streams. Some of the work was beyond the present power of the Territories. He was endeavoring to get the Government at Ottawa to make provision for bridging the Belly river, and hoped the Dominion would recognize the necessity. The Territories were assisting to bridge the Kootenay river; the bridge would be a steel structure and in every way a credit to the department. Provision was made for a dam over the Qu'Appelle river at Katepwe. There had been two dams in that neighborhood. One had gone out, and had left land drying up which was a menace to health. A survey had been made by Mr. Child, who reported that one dam at Katepwe would be better than the two. They would put in a dam which he hoped would stand for several years. Respecting items for ferries, Mr. Ross said it was the policy of the Government to acquire the ferries and cheapen the fees. The barriers against settlers who had to cross rivers should be made as light as possible. If the Government had the money the rivers ought to be bridged, but in many cases that was out of the question, and they were in duty bound to make the hardships attending the crossing of these rivers as light as possible. While the expenditure upon the ferries was shown, there was also revenues from them which would not appear until the receipts of next year, Another $1,000 was asked for well-boring. While the operation of the well-borers had this year been fairly satisfactory with which they had to deal. It was simply impossible to estimate any approximate result from any given expenditure. For a time things would proceed well, then a piece of territory would be struck yielding nothing but disappointment. The deep borers were very expensive. After sinking a certain distance the cost increased very largely. To bore a foot at a depth of 150 feet cost very much more than at 50 feet depth. He hoped still to do much better in the operation of this branch. He was giving the subject his very best attention, believing that it was one of the questions most important to the people that they should have supplies of good spring water.
The opening of the road to Peace River had been criticized. The road had been dubbed "the Yukon route." He could say that this Government never had any idea of building a road or any part of a road to Yukon. The road was a road to Peace River, for the benefit of of and for the opening up of the Peace River country. It was by no means a new subject. As far back as 1884 Mr. Oliver in the North-West Council had made out a strong case for the opening of the road, asking an appropriation of $2,000. The Council had been unable to undertake the work; but they "resoluted." The usual fate attended their resoluting, and nothing was done. Later on further efforts were made, but the Assembly was always prevented by lack of funds from doing anything. Last year upon very strong representations made by the members for Edmonton, Victoria and St. Albert the Government decided to undertake the work, and when the House at last session was asked for a vote for the purpose, the proposition was supported al- mos unanimously, one member (Mr. Bannerman) going so far as to express his willingness to forego all works in his own district in favor of the Peace River road; although he (Mr. Ross) had been obliged to remark then that Mr. Bannerman did still want a few things done in his district. (Laughter.) The Government had the route explored, and last fall went on opening it up. They met more difficulties than had been expected. The common idea was that the country north of Edmonton was bluffy; but for a distance of 200 miles the road ran through solid bush i which no open space was found as large as the area of the town of Regina. It was solid timber,-heavy spruce. There was 27 miles width of the best spruce he had ever seen, the trees standing from 60 to 80 feet without a limb. In other portions there was cottonwood and poplar. Having put their shoulder to the wheel, having commenced the work, the Government decided to complete it, and depend upon the House to sustain the action and the additional cost. He had no fears but that the House would support the expenditure when he informed them of the benefits which had already accrued. The opening of a road to Peace River have the people of the Territories an opportunity to do the trading of and sell the supplies to both the Findlay river country and the Omenica country in Northern British Columbia. It also enabled prospectors to go to the Nelson and Liard country, and enabled the Territories to tap the trade of all those areas. At Slave Lake there were 700 people; there was a Roman Catholic mission and all the institutions which prevail in other communities, including schools, churches, etc. The people at Peace River sustained a cost of $300 a month for mail service, which showed that it was a district of no mean importance.
(To be concluded next week.)



Conclusion of the Budget Debate Report- Explanation of the Schemes for Assisting the Agricultural and Stock Interests- Mr. Ross Hotly Resented the Insinuations of Favoritism Made by Mr. Mowat- Speech of the Leader of the Opposition- Mr. Mitchell Termed the Government's Policy a John Bull Policy- Mr. Haultain Would Not Accept Provincial Establishment With Any Less Powers Than the Provinces Posses.

(Continued from last issue.)
THE LEADER'S Budget debate report (N.W.T. Legislature, 13th Sept., 1898) broke off last week in the middle of the speech of the Commissioner of Public Works and Agriculture.
had detailed the reasons which impelled the Government to undertake the opening of the Peace Rive rroad, and explained the work done on the road. He then proceeded to show some of the benefits reaped from the Government's action and policy in that connection, as follows:-
He had taken the trouble to ascertain as nearly as possible the exact results in trade at Calgary and Edmonton accruing from the opening of the road. This Government could not be held responsible if there had been people foolish enough to think they could go to Yukon by that route. From the President of the Board of Trade at Edmonton he learned that the trade of that town from 1st Sept. 1897 to 1st Sept. 1898 amounted to one and one quarter millions of dollars; the trade of the town had increased 50 per cent. over the former year, and one half of the increase was due to the Yukon trade. That was to say the trade of Edmonton had increased by $675,000, and the opening of the road to Peace River led to $337,000 of th increase. That fact in itself was ample justification for the expenditure. From Mr. Morris, of Calgary, a banker and a reliable authority, he learned that the northern trade resulted in the sale of horses to the value of $40,000 and in general business in supplies to the extent of $100,000 at Calgary. Many parts of the Territories could give like experiences. The districts of Indian Head and Regina he knew had sold horses and oxen and dogs for the northern trade. Even if no Yukon existed it was right and proper for the Government to take hold and develop a portion of the Territories having such possibilities as the Peace River country. If the Assembly and Government did their duty, they would not have to pass resolutions in the House to save their territory, but the people in all portions would pass the resolutions and show their desire to remain as a part of the Territories. (Applause.)
The House at last session had made provision for a department of agriculture, but no estimate was made for the engagement of a deputy. When the department was organized the Clerk of the Council, Mr. Reid, took charge of it. Mr. Reid's time, however, was so fully taken up with other duties that, even working night and day for weeks and months, as he had done, he could not attend to the duties, particularly when the brands registration business had to be taken hold of. Mr. Ross said he wished now that they had allowed longer time in which to effect the change in the brands system; a longer time would have saved himself a very great deal of trouble and worry. Mr. Reid had tackled the work with a will, but although he worked almost without ceasing, his many other duties prevented his proper attention to the brands business. Mr. Ross saw that in the interests of the department and of the people there should be a chief clerk. As he had done in the case of the public works, he looked around for a suitable man, and finally selected Mr. Peterson. This gentleman was not a deputy head yet, but Mr. Ross hoped he would be one in a very few days. He ventured to say that the House would find that in his choice of Mr. Peterson he had been no less successful than in the choice of Mr. Dennis. The member for Yorkton had sized him up, and had sized him up well. Mr. Peterson was well equipped for the post. He was not only a first class office man, but was a practical agriculturist and had been an experimenter himself. He took a very deep interest in agriculture. Mr. Peterson had come out to this country and had farmed in Manitoba where had had to carry water ten miles for use on his farm; he had farmed also at Calgary where to succeed the farmer was obliged to apply water to his land. In connection with the brands administration Mr. Peterson had proved a treasure. He came in on the 1st of May and ever since had devoted all his time, even the time that should be his own for recreation, to the work of the office. Mr. Ross was glad of the occasion to express his opinion thus publicly of Mr. Peterson; he would not have felt like doing so had the question of Mr. Peterson's qualifications not been raised. He would again say that he had not the slightest doubt but that the country would endorse the appointment when his work had time to be seen. After speaking of the work of the department with the brands system, Mr. Ross said the department was also charged with the collection and publishing of general statistics. Very little in that line had yet been done, but they hoped to do something this fall. The deputy would also be of assistance in preparing legislation dealing with agriculture, as for instance in relation to agricultural societies. Mr. Mowat had accused him (Mr. Ross) of having prepared a good scheme in this connection. He admitted that he had been thinking out a scheme. But there had been no bill printed. He submitted his views in type written for mto the Agricultural Committee. Mr. Mowat could scarcely be in earnest in his suggestion that his (Mr. Ross's) fears had induced him to withdraw his proposition. He thought no member would accuse him of being afraid to press h is views. The accusation had always been the other way, - that he was too apt in pressing his views. He had not changed his views about the scheme proposed, but doubted whether the time had quite come for  applying it. The plan was not thoroughly digested; he hardly thought he had all the information required. He had placed the matter before the Agricultural Committee to get the views of the members; he was always willing to learn. He was going to go further, and place the scheme before the agricultural societies of the country. He did not claim to know everything about every subject, and was perfectly willing to seek advice from those qualified to give it. He hoped next year to be able to bring in a bill dealing with the subject on the lines of the scheme. While on that subject he might say that it was his intention to have a section of the Agricultural Societies Ordinance amended to enable a society of 50 members to draw the grant. Last year, having this scheme in view, the House had raised the minimum membership to 100. The object soguht for would be reached in another way. While the societies had undoubtedly done an excellent work, they were too much disposed to hold small shows. It would be proposed to hold larger district shows in which more than one society might join. If nothing untoward occurred in the uncertain meantime, the scheme would be introduced at the first session of the new Legislature. Other very important subjects to which the attention of the department of agriculture would have to be given were Noxious Weeds, Estray Animals and the administration of the votes passed by the Assembly for Hospitals, Charities and Public Health. With such branches as these, added to those regarding which he had entered more into detail, the House would recognize that the Department was one of very great importance. There was full scope for all the organisation which they were providing. Mr. Ross was sorry to hear anyone suggest that it was a minor department, and preferred to believe that Mr. Mowat thought that as yet the size of the department and the amount of work it could do made it a minor one. Every member must recognise that the future of the North-West Territories depends upon the agricultural interests; and it did not need to be demonstrated at this date that it was possible for a great deal of assistance to be given agriculturists and stockraisers through a well organised department whose business it was to devote attention to those interests.
After devoting some remarks in an- answer to the hint that the agricultural policy was invented to catch votes, Mr. Ross said he was perfectly satisfied as to the advisability of endeavoring to assist the stockraisers to improve their grades. It was evident that within the past few years the quality of the stock had been deteriorating. He had had an opportunity of seeing an example of what might be done in the line of improvement. Anyone who had been up the Manitoba and North-Western railway and had seen the thoroughbred stock farm at Binscarth and the quality of cattle raised in the district surrounding, would realise the benefit to be derived. There was already an arrangement in force with the railways for reduced rates on shipments of thoroughbreds, made at the instance of the Department of Agriculture at Ottawa. But the fact of the arrangement did not seem to be well understood. One of the [?] of this department would be to spread information of the advantages of that arrangement, and in addition, the House was aksed to vote a sum to give a small bonus for each head of thoroughbred stock brought to the country. The proposition was this: The department would receive an application from a man who wished to import one head of male stock; the importer would have to make his own provision in regard to selection and purchase, because the Government were not going to leave themselves open to any charge of collusion in buying animals. The bonus would be given in such an amount that the cost of the man of bringing the animal to his own station would be $5, that was to say the cost of the animal would be precisely its cost in Ontario plus $5. The bonuses would be so applied that the resident in any part of the Territories could secure an animal at the same cost as a resident in any other part. The man would have to notify the department of his purchase in the east, and the department would, whenever a certain number had been purchased, have a man to collect them, come in charge of them, and distribute them at stations to which they mgiht be destined. Mr. Eakin had feared that some section of country or some collection of individuals would get in their applications first and scoop the whole fund and the whole advantage. Mr. Ross did not share the fear. In the first place every portion of the country would be given notice at the same time, and in the second place his fear was that for the first year anyway the scheme would not be taken advantage of to even the full extent of their small vote. Before a man could take advantage of the scheme he must be able to pay the first cost of the thoroughbred animal. The average cost to the Government per animal would be from $12.00 to $18.00 according to the locality to which the animal was taken. If there were 100 applications in the first year it was all they could reasonably expect. He expected that in the time the settlers would become able to take more advantage of the scheme and hoped that in future years the House might have to vote a larger sum for the purpose. The Government's arrangements in connection with this scheme were all but completed, and they would be ready very shortly to receive applications as he had explained. The next item was the one of $2,500 to initiate experimental work in the Territories. The whole House would agree that great advantage had accrued to those sections of country where experimental farms had been located. The farms were an object lesson to all who could get to see them. He would not claim that all the good work done in Indian Head district was attributable to the experimental farm there, but no one could doubt that the farm had greatly benefitted that district. If the good work was to be taken full advantage of, then it had to be brought nearer home to a greater number of farm ers. What advantage was the Indian Head farm to a farmer in Edmonton district? Even if he could go to see it, the conditions on his own farm and on the farm at Indian Head were entirely different. What advantage to Southern Alberta would be the establishment of an experimental farm at Prince Albert? Not very great, certainly. Mr. Eakin said that the experimenters had advocated certain grains and grasses but now found them unsuitable and unsuccessful. That showed precisely the great value of experimental work. Was it not cheaper for one experimenter to prove the unsuitability of a certain grain, than for a great numbers of farmers to have to learn the fact from their own experiences and losses? The greatest work of an experimental farm was not in showing what should be done, but in showing what should not be done. The sum to be devoted to the work by this Government was small; it was for initiatory work. They did not expect to be able to start experimental work everywhere at once, but he did hope that in time this Government would be able to do something practical for the advancement of the interests of agriculture in this country. It was all very well to say that the Dominion was doing the work and that Prof. Robertson was doing the work. He hoped that the Dominion would continue its good work, and that Prof. Robertson would continue and increase the amount of his good work; but after all that the Dominion would or could do, there was a great deal left to be done, and he believed that it was time for the local Government to commence to organise and to supplement the work done by the Dominion. The cry thgat the scheme was an election dodge was the veriest buncombe. The farmers of the country would not thank the man who raised that cry. If the Government might not dare to adopt any policy for the benefit of the farmers the farmers would be left in a poor position. If they heeded that cry, nothing could be done near the close of a term. The cry that the scheme was an election dodge was the poorest kind of argument. The department had been in existence less than a year; this was the first opportunity it had had to make through the Executive Council to the House any proposition, and he thought it was a matter for congratulation that upon this, the very first opportunity, the department was able to propound, and had propounded, a policy and a scheme to benefit the agriculturists and ranchers of the country. The House must have some faith in the Government and in their proposals. When it ws found that a scheme was unwise, then would be the time to condemn.
Mr. Mowat had criticised the proposal to pay certain school debenture indebtedness, arguing that a bad precedent would be established. Mr. Mowat unfortunately was not aware of the conditions which made it necessary to propose that vote. The leader of the Government had overlooked the explanation of that item. They did not justify the payment of the debentures on the plea that the districts had failed. They were not paying the amounts to save the debenture holders. In one of the districts affected every settler but one had left, and this unfortunate one might be pounced upon for the whole debt of the district. The cases were in reality a legacy to this Government from the days when the Lieut.- Governor conducted the business of the Territories. In those days sufficient caution was not observed in allowing districts to raise money on debentures. Such cases were not likely to occur again. They were very careful now, and demanded evidence showing that sufficient lands within the district were patented to form ample security for the debt. There was no danger of precedent. Such cases would not occur again. The cases were an old score, and payment was proposed first to save the unfortunate man who might be crushed out through no particular fault of his own, secondly to remove the bar against the re-settlement of lands; with the debt hanging over them the lands would never be settled, and thirdly in the interest of the credit of the school districts of the Territories which it would be unfortunate to have injured.
Mr. Mowat had renewed his complaints and insinuations about the non printing of the Consolidated Ordinances. Mr. Ross thought that the House realized that Mr. Haultain had made a full explanation of that matter, and he had himself stated to the House the reasons which induced the Government to withhold the printing. The manuscript had not been finished when expected. He had already stated the facts respecting the tenders. Mr. MOwat had mistaken on one point. The tenderer he had in mind was not the lowest; he was the lowest tenderer in the Territories. The Government were of the opinion that unless there was a great difference in the tenders, they would not be justified in sending the work out of the Territories. It could not be conveniently done out of the Territories on account of the time which would necessarily be taken up with the sending of proofs. The Queen's Printer had made a recommendation in favor of the acceptance of the lowest Territorial tender. Then they found that the contactor was not willing to agree to complete the work within any certain time; the contractor gave as his reason for refusing to agree to any time, that two years had been spent in preparing the work . Did the House ever hear of such an argument? The contractor didnt seem to know whether he could do the printing in 12 weeks, 12 months or 12 years. While the Government were thus negotiating with the contractor, the Chairman of the Consolidation Commission suggested to them by letter that it would be well to delay the work until after a a further session. The Government agreed to this suggestion because they believed it was in the best interests of the country. Any insinuation of improper motives in relation to the contractors he would.
of the man who made it. There were no record since the hon. member for Macleod became entrusted with public business in the North West Territories to show that he had ever in any way favored one contractor against another. (Applause.) He would tell the hon. member for South Regina that there should be something stronger than mere vague suspicions to warrant such charges as he had made, and if he were going to make such insinuations he had better produce some evidence to bakc them up. (Applause.) Such damaging charges were not to go unchallenged, and Mr. Mowat would need better ground to asperse the character of any member of this Government. (Applause). Continuing, in reply to Mr. Eakin, the Commissioner stated that the Important Ordinances of 1897 had been printed separately and distributed, as for instance the Statute Labor, Brands, Estrays, etc. but possibly they were not distributed thoroughly enough. A mistake had been made in not printing more copies of the Ordinance book of last session, but the reason was that they expected to have the Consolidated Ordinances out early in the year, which would have superseded all other Ordinances, and they had tried to be economical as they always did. Mr. Mowat had also made insinuations of favoritism towards Mr. Maloney and his district. He (Mr. Ross) had not looked into the estimates carefully enough to find out how Mr. Maloney fared. He remembered having asserted last year that the Estimates would show a fair distribution of the moneys between the great divisions of the country. He believed a fair analysis would show that to be the case; and he thought the wants of all the areas and districts had been fairly well attended to. He could only say that if Mr. Maloney did fare as well as Mr. Mowat thought he did, then the member for St. Albert had not dealt very fairly by him (Mr. Ross) in kicking as much as he had done about the unfulfilled needs of St. Albert. It was perfectly natural for hon. members to believe that their districts were entitled to large imporvements, but his duty was to hold the scales equitably, and he hoped to do so as long as he occupied the position he was in. With the present Supplementary Estimates they were providing for many works which members had desired done last year, and which there had been a right to expect last year, only that there were no moneys available for the purpose. Mr. Ross concluded by asserting in the hearing of all the members who were certainly aware of the fact or otherwise of his statement, that none could allege that through the patronage or though the public works expenditure the Government had ever or on any occasion endeavored to influence any member of that House. (Prolonged applause.)
the hon. leader of the Opposition, spoke very briefly as the hour was approaching midnight. Dr. Brett had only arrived on the evening train after an absence of several days from the House, having been called to Chicago by the illness of a relative. He regretted his inability to hear the speech made by the hon. leader of the Government, and ws sure that it had been a lucid and acceptable statement. He congratulated Mr. Ross upon the readiness of his possession of the details relating to his departments. The House could not help noticing the large amounts they were voting in the Estimates before them; it was proof of the fact that the Territories were progressive, and that their business was growing larger year by year. He did not wonder that they amounts were large for expenses of government, but it did seem that the expenses of government as compared with the revenues were very large. He did not intend critisise the departments. He recognised that in inaugurating a new system, the officials would be new to their work; they would become capable of handling more work after practice in the offices. He endorsed the policy of selecting the best available men for the deputy heads. As the business of the country grew, the responsibilities of the Government became larger. As the amounts they were spending enlarged year by year, it became more necessary for them to watch closely the management and policy of the Government. Dr. Brett believed the new policy in regard to the stock interests was in the right direction. Mr. Ross had waxed eloquent over an insinuation made by someone that the scheme was for an eleciton purpose. Dr. Brett hope that if the scheme did no good in the election, that it might do no harm anyway. The amount appropriated ws less than would be justifiable. THere was one policy which the members of the Government had not seemed anxious to explain,- that was the policy they had indulged in of ignoring the Assembly in certain matters. His reference was to the Yukon administration. They had made their regulations and sent an expedition without obtaining the sanction of the House.Their action involved a great principle, the principle of license or prohibition. They had established a license system without sanction. Before the license system was established in the organised Territories there had been great discussion, the Assembly had considered the matter in all its bearings, and came to a decision after a great deal of thought. No Government should have taken so great a responsibility as to institute license in any country without full discussion and sanction of the people's representatives. Dr. Brett opposed the item of $1750 for paying school debentures. It seemed to him that this was making a bad precedent. Why not sell the lands if the speculators in the east who advanced the money had now to be reimbursed? It seemed to him that when speculators made a bad investment they had no right to come to the Assembly for remedy. Touching upon the loss of the Yukon territory, Dr. Brett said the fact of the loss gave rise to a certain amount of alarm. If it was the policy of the Government to allow the Territories to be disintegrated without resistance, then he could not agree with it. The delay of two or three years in the printing of the public accounts was another policy he could not agree with. The Government had not apologised so much for these omissions as they sought applause on account of the things they thought they had done well. On immigration the Government had no policy, contending that the funds were too limited, but he thought a fully organised government ought to be able to do something, even were it no larger than this policy with which they were now appealing to the farmers, namely to spend $2,500 on experiments. The Government were willing to rely entirely on the Dominion to select the classes of people for settlers in these Territories. On the whole the  wants and revenues of the Territories were growing less rapidly than the expenses of Government. He would not say that these expenses were increasing too rapidly, but they were certainly becoming proportionally very great. Not having heard the Premier's speech, he did not know whether any mention had been made of provincial rights. Some policy in this regard should emanate from the Government and he hoped an expected that Mr. Haultain had dealt with the subject.
just wished to allude to one matter which had been omitted, relating to education. During this year Mr. Haultain had visited the country north of Saskatoon, where the schools had not been running satisfactorily. In regard to these half breed schools there was great difficulty in securing and retaining teachers, who had been poorly paid. Many of the schools had been closed. Mr. Haultain had made a personal inspection, and found that in several districts the trustees were not able to properly attend to the business of the districts. It was suggested that Commissioners be appointed to carry on the business and get the schools reopened. It was very important that some adequate provision be made for the education of those children, so that when they grow up they shall be able to perform the duties of trustees. Dealing with some remarks of the member for South Regina, Mr. Mitchellsaid that that hon. gentleman in examining the Estimates appeared to have a great deal of time to spare for figuring out the amounts for St. Albert. Mr. Mowat had probably forgotten that the idea was done away with of giving personally to members of the public works moneys and thus furnishing them with "wads for voters." But it was the Independent member's privilege to recommend works which he believed should be done; this idea did not seem to please Mr. Mowat, who changed his ground so often that it as difficult to follow him. Mr. Mowat had certainly paid the right side of the House a great compliment, and had taken up a great deal of time in mixing up his compliments and allusions to certain millstones in the Government and certain references to members interested in draining and others interested in bridging. He would just say to Mr. Mowat that he (Mr. Mitchell) had one acquirement, if no other, which was that he was able to close his mouth in six languages, whereas Mr. Mowat did not seem able to do so in one tongue. Something had been said about the policy of the Government. He would suggest that the Government's policy deserved the name of the John Bull policy, because it was a policy of integrity, for transacting the public business without fear or favour; and he hoped this Government would stick to that policy.
warmly commended the proposed to initiate experimental work in agriculture. He said the farm at Indian Head was of little use to Alberta. He trusted that in the scheme of irrigation areas of Southern Alberta and the great wheat areas of Northern Alberta would not be forgotten. Mr. Bannerman admitted that Mr. Mowat in his speech that afternoon had had a heavy load to carry, and had carried it well. Mr. Mowat took umbrage at the salaries of the officials, seeming to forget that it was worth 25 per cent. more to live in Regina than anywhere else. Mr. Mowat himself had com to see this and had swapped with Vancouver. Mr. Mowat had also critisised the Peace River trail. The House would recollect that last year when the paltry vote of $10,000 was proposed, he (Mr. Bannerman) suggested that he was willing to forego any works in his district in favor of the Yukon road. Where was the member for South Regina then? He sat there in his chair as still as a frozen frog in January. (Laughter.) Now Mr. Mowat was finding fault because the Government did not proceed with the Yukon business at an earlier stage. The youth and beauty which had overflowed the galleries of the House that afternoon reminded Mr. Bannerman of the fact of the total inadequacy of the Assembly chamber. It had been his privilege to introduce a resolution on that subject, and he had been told that he should not have introduced the resolution because he was afraid to name the proper place for the location of the capital. He scorned the baseless insinuation. How could he be afraid? The City of Calgary was the second city in size and importance west of Pembroke. (Laughter.) It had a splended system of waterworks, all modern conveniences, and two magnificent rivers, than which there were no purer streams in the world. Around Calgary there were millions upon millions of the finest agricultural lands that could be found under the blue canopy of heaven. (Laughter).
spoke as the representative of the French people of the Territories. Most of the members of the House represented a certain number of the French element, and all should be able to appreciate statements he would make, and which he personally knew to be true, respecting the French people. In asking for the printing o the Ordinances in French these people were asking merely for justice. The Act prescribed that the Ordinances "shall" be so printed; the Act did not say "may," but "shall," and it was simply asking for justice to ask for the printing in both languages. Mr. Boucher referred to the visit made by the Premier to the school districts in the northern settlements. He trusted that the schools which were standing closed should soon be re-opened, and the children given the advantages of education. He resented certain remarks of Mr. Agnew respecting the character of the people in Batoche district. He haertily endorsed the policy of the Government on the question of Dominion party lines, and wondered why Mr. Mowat had omitted any mention of Batoche district. The Estimates, he was glad to see, made provision for some very much needed roads.
rose at a quarter past twelve to close the debate. He said there were just two points which he desired to mention. The first was in respect of the schools in Batoche and surrounding districts. He had visited that part of the country. The schools referred to were situated almost exclusively in half-breed settlements, and the older people had not enjoyed the advantages which he hoped the younger people will have. The difficulty in connection with the schools were, first, a deficiency in the mangement, and secondly, the difficulty of getting suitable teachers. The teachers must be possessed of the two languages, as an English teacher could make no headway with children who could speak only French. It was suggested to make use of the provision for the appointment of Commissioners to take the management of the districts, and he hoped soon to have in operation again the schools which were closed, and to have the other schools going on more satisfactorily. It was no small thing to have large communities of children deprived of the advantages  of education. The communities were large and he found that there were a great number of children, most of the districts having from 25 to 30 children. It was lamentable to think of these children growing up in ignorance. The department was no being to a certain extent successful in an attempt to procure qualified teachers able to speak French. The other point was one raised by Dr. Patrick in connection with provincial status,-in regard to the position the Government would take as to borrowing. In his opinion it would be necessary for the carrying on of the provincial business in the Territories that they should have the borrowing power. With vast undeveloped lands and other resources, it woudl be necessary to discout the future. The power to borrow as not bad in itself. He would be unwilling to go into provincial establishment deprived of any power possessed by the provinces. In the exercise of all the powers, they would take warning by the experiences of sister provinces, but the possession of the borrowing power would be absolutely essential. He did not put this as the opinion of the Government, but as his own opinion. Mr. Eakin had seemed to fear precipitancy. He (Mr. Haultain) had certainly not intended to give the impression that provincial establishment could be arranged in any hurry. What he had said was that the question would have to be taken up by the next Assembly. He quite agreed with the view that the county would need education on the question,  and it was altogether likely that the country would be asked for an expression of opinion when any negotiations should have reached a certain stage. It was quite likely that any Government in power would wish t oget the verdict of the people. He did not want to jump into provincial establishment. But it was time to think about getting ready to negotiate; it was time to conclude that the period when negotiations would have to be entered upon would arrive before the end of the term of the Legislature about to be elected. Mr Haul- tain said he was well satisfied with the line the debate had taken. The Government always expected criticism. There would always be differences of opinion. Referring to Mr. Mowat's withdrawal from the House and to the attitude he had taken in the House, the Premier said that the hon. gentleman and himself had had many tilts in debate, had had many differences of opinion which had often been expressed forcibly and to the point; but he would say now to Mr. Mowat and to others that however strongly he had ever felt he believed he could claim that he had never indulged in personalities, and he had at least never willingly been actuated by personal feelings of hostility in any debates or discussions in the House. He was glad that he could part with Mr. Mowat on perfectly friendly terms, and with the best of wishes for his future welfare.
The motion carried and the House resolved into Committee of Supply, passed one item, reported progress, and the House adjourned at 12:30 o'clock.


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