Assembly Chamber, Upper Fort Garry
Wednesday, 27 April 1870
The minutes of the proceedings having been read and confirmed,
The President suggested that as the report of the special committee on the laws was now in the
hands of the Printer, and as members could discuss it more intelligently with the
printed document before them, it might be well to postpone the discussion upon the
report until it appeared in its printed shape.
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue moved, seconded by
Hon. Mr. Poitras, that in the meantime the reports of the committees on the Hay Privilege question
should be read and considered — Carried on a division.
The following reports were then laid before the House:
Kildonan
The following committee was appointed:— Alex. Sutherland, Hugh Polson, John Fraser,
D. Matheson, John Gunn, Neil Campbell.
The following resolution was moved by
Mr. John Fraser and seconded by
Donald Matheson. That the Committee are agreed, and do recommend
to the Legislative Assembly, that we hold the Two-mile hay Privilege as heretofore
until
treaties be concluded with the Indians, and their title to the same be legally
extinguished; otherwise difficulties may arise by interfering with Indian land —
Carried.
James A. Murray, Sec'y. for Meeting.
Kildonan, April 25, 1870.
PORTAGE LA PRAIRIE
At a public meeting called by the Hon. Wm. Garrioch, at Portage La Prairie, on the
19th day of April, 1870, a committee was appointed to report to the President and
Legislative Assembly, in reference to the Two-mile hay Privilege question.
Committee appointed were as follows: — Mr. Cummings, John McLean, Thos. Anderson,
John Garrioch, P. Bartlett.
Resolved by the above committee:—
That we claim only the two miles from our original starting point, as established
by our local laws when in existence; as, there are claims already taken, and in some
cases partly improved, on what would be our two-mile hay privilege.
Charles Curtis, Secretary.
HIGH BLUFF
At a public meeting held at the residence of Hon. John Norquay, High Bluff, 12th April,
1870; it was unanimously resolved that a committee be appointed to consider the Two-mile
hay Privilege.
Resolved, That A. Spence, A. Peterson, John Foulds, and Joseph Halcro be the committee formed.—
Carried.
The committee, after consulting the people,
Resolved, That they require the Two-mile hay Privilege, and pray the hon. Legislative Assembly
of Assiniboia to cause the "Hay Bill" to become law.
John McDonald, Sec'y.
John Norquay, Chairman
POPLAR POINT
Hon. Mr. G. Gunn said — I do not bring any written report from Poplar Point, but will briefly give
the opinion of the people on the question of the hay privilege. The land in that section
was never surveyed; and as the river is very crooked, nobody can tell with any exactitude
where the front lots will be. In some places they are settled two and three miles
from the river, owing to the depth of the points, and it would be very difficult to
say how to deal with the lots here, in the absence of a general survey. A base line
has, in fact, yet to be formed to survey from. Some have long narrow strips, and think
they would be in a better position hereafter were they to take land in square blocks.
I have been requested to say, generally, that our people would like to have their
land surveyed, and that in the meantime the hay privilege should be allowed to remain
as it was. When the survey is made, it is expected that the deep points will be cut
off, a base line will be run in front or behind, and behind that they can take up
their land either in strips or square blocks.
ST. ANDREW'S
Hon. Mr. Hay reported. I called a meeting of ten of the parishioners of St. Andrew's parish on
the 11th inst., when it was proposed by Mr. Gunn, and seconded by Mr. Tait, that the
wish of the people was, that the two-mile privilege should be converted into a fee
simple ownership, but that they could not see any possible means of effecting the
conversion at present. A vote on the resolution resulted in a tie — 5 being for it
and 5 against it. We then adjourned till the 25th, when we met and resolved that it
was better for us at present to have matters remain as they were until the Indian
title was extinguished. Our people have no fear of incomers settling behind them,
and altogether think it better that no change should be made in regard to this hay
privilege at present.
ST. JAMES'S
Hon. Mr. McKay reported. I called a meeting in our parish for the 11th inst., but no one attended;
and I concluded they took very little interest in the matter, as they have no two-mile
hay privilege. In St. James's parish we are so situated, that some of the lots do
not run out the two miles, and others do not extend over three. Since the day I called
the meeting, I have heard that the people of that parish do not wish the privilege
converted into ownership. It is thought best that matters should remain in this respect
as they have been. The fact is, they have no hay privilege for the most part. For
myself I can state that I have a great deal of land there, and I never cut a forkful
of hay on any of my lots. Had we been confined to our hay privilege, the fact is we
would never have had any hay. Talking with some of my neighbours, they told me that
they preferred leaving the claims as they were, and that if a plan could be devised
by the Provisional Government, by which the people of that parish could get a land-reserve,
they would prefer it. For my part I would say, that I would prefer that this House
would grant a reserve of land to the people of the Assiniboine, where they could get
wood and hay; and I do not imagine that, in doing this, the Government action would
at all injuriously affect the Indian title to the land. I am positive if we do not
get it now, we never will get it. Personally, I stand here now as a Half-breed, on
behalf of my country-men, to say that we urge this claim. We want some land where
wood and hay can be obtained. We are living in a quarter where, if we do not get this
reserve, neither wood nor hay can be procured; and, in getting this reserve, I do
not consider that we would take any title from the Indians. Even if we got this grant
now, the Indians would have the good of it for many years — perhaps even more than
we would. It would still remain in a wild state, so that the Indian could make what
use of it he pleased.
ST. PETER'S
Hon. Mr. Sinclair reported in Indian, which was translated by Hon. Mr. McKay. I called a meeting in
our parish, said Mr. Sinclair, but could not make those who attended clearly understand
my object, and though Rev. Mr. Cochrane spoke very much in my favor, I failed in getting
a committee. Those that attended the meeting were desirous that the hay privilege
should be converted into ownership, but I know that a great number do not desire this,
because they say, the Indians would not be satisfied with it.
President — Is your parish included in the reserve?
Hon. Mr. Bunn — But Hon. Mr. Sinclair represents the settled Indians only.
WINNIPEG
Hon. Mr. Olone reported. He said — I called a meeting in my district, but nobody attended. Then
I went to see all those having an interest in the hay privilege, and they expressed
the wish that it should be allowed to remain as at present. There would be a difficulty
in my district in regard to the way the lines are run on the Assiniboine.
ST. CLEMENT'S
Hon. Mr. Bunn reported. He said — In accordance with the bill which passed this House last session,
immediately on my return home, I formed the following committee — J.E. Harriott, W.
Cochrane, J. Whiteway, J. Kippling, Thos. Lyons, Peter Spence, Alex. McKenzie, C.
Spence and Thos. Foster, — making ten, the maximum number fixed for each committee.
At our first meeting I laid before them the object of assembling, viz, to consider
the question of converting the Two Mile Hay Privilege into a fee simple property,
and the best mode of doing so, to the satisfaction of all parties concerned. I had
carefully considered the bill as it stood, and pointed out, so far as I knew, the
parties concerned. I took the view, that there were only two parties,— those that
got the property, and those they got it from. The first owners of the property were
the Indians, and I urged that we should think of them, and if they had any claim at
all, as I supposed they had, I would like to know what it actually was. The question
as to the expediency of converting the hay privilege into absolute ownership, I left
with the committee. They were agreed that if the conversion was feasible, it was certainly
desirable. But they felt that there were difficulties in the way. One of these was,
that there were parties now using the land outside the two miles for ploughing or
other purposes who would, by the proposed law, be made trespassers. In regard to these
the committee agreed that any person not an owner or occupier of the front lot, who
had ploughed on this and out-side the two miles, should be allowed a three years'
privilege of it. Now of those who were on that committee I convened, only three would
have been placed in the position of trespassers by the proposed bill. They formed,
it will be seen, but a very small minority of the committee. As to the other difficulty,
the Indian difficulty, it is in my opinion a very serious one. Until the Indian claim
has been satisfied, it would be imprudent to take the action proposed in regard to
this hay privilege. But at the same time my committee said, we would like very much,
in spite of this difficulty, that the Legislature would guarantee that after the Indian
title was extinguished in the proper way, this land should be granted to us absolutely.
They desire the guarantee of the land and that hereafter there should be no more trespassing
on it in the way of building houses, cultivation or cutting hay, by any party whatsoever.
I desired Mr. Sinclair of St. Peter's to precede me to-day, and my reason was that
I wished to find out his views with reference to some of my remarks of yesterday.
I stated then, what I heard, that the Indians claimed such a right in a portion of
the land as they would not part with. I am surprised he did not allude to this; for
if the Indians really take such a position it affects very seriously many like ourselves.
ST. PAUL'S
Hon. Mr. Bird reported. He said, — I had a meeting in my parish, at which, I think, almost every
land-owner in the parish was present. We formed a committee of ten — the largest number
allowed — and they decided unanimously that they would like to have their four-mile
grant as soon as it could be obtained. They were of opinion that at present the fee
simple of the land could not be given, and would like that in the meantime matters
should continue as they are. Some who had settled on lots outside the two-miles were
present, and it was unanimously agreed that in the case of such settlers, a three
years' privilege would be sufficient compensation.
HEADINGLY
Hon. William Tait reported. I have not called any meeting in my parish, he said. I told several of
them that this question would come before the parish, and, desiring to give them as
long a time as possible to make up their minds on the point, I postponed calling the
meeting until, as it turned out, I gave them too much time for consideration. I was,
besides, very busily engaged at committee work here for two full weeks. It was my
intention to have called a meeting last Monday, but we remained too late in committee
on Saturday evening to allow of my getting home in time. I have, however, spoken to
several in the parish on the subject, and all were of opinion that they would like
to get the two-mile hay privilege. I did not call their attention to the subject of
getting the fee simple ownership of the land outside the two miles, for I did not
think that this Government ever intended to give it. I simply informed them of the
intention of the law passed by the last Assembly, viz, that they were empowered to
use this two-mile privilege as heretofore, but that it was to be under the control
of the Government, to be disposed of by them as they thought best when the proper
time came. This they all approved of. They told me they felt if the hay privilege
could be given them absolutely, it would be one great cause of preventing disputes
arising, such as had arisen from persons ploughing behind their neighbors. At the
same time they were desirous of leaving the whole matter under the control of the
Assembly. This is what I gathered from those I have spoken to on the subject. However,
as this question may not be immediately disposed of, I may yet have time to call a
meeting when my parish, having the benefit of the views of all the other parishes,
will, no doubt, come to a satisfactory decision.
ST. JOHN'S
Hon. Mr. Bannatyne reported that he was in pretty much the same position as the hon. member for Headingly,
but he thought there would yet be time to call a meeting in the parish, and he would
endeavor to get the people together and elicit their views regarding this hay privilege.
Having the views of the other parishes before them they might be in a better position
to decide on their course.
ST. BONIFACE AND ST. VITAL
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue reported. The parishioners of St. Boniface, he said, had held a meeting at which,
although I intended to be on the committee, I was not able to attend. I have, however,
been requested by the President of the meeting, Hon. Mr. Bruce, to report its result.
The committee was composed of Hon. Mr. Bruce, His Lordship Bishop Taché, and Messrs.
Marion, Genton, L'Esperance, Carriere, Bruce and C. McDougall. The report was not
written, but it is, briefly, this. A good number of the people of the parish cannot
get hay immediately outside their lots. As the seigniory runs east and the river lots
north-east, and all of them up the river, from the Church as far as St. Vital, they
of course run into the seigniory. The lots I speak of run out in some instances only
two miles, and in some cases but one mile. Thus between the Red River and Riviere
La Seine in the parishes of St. Boniface and St. Vital, the lots are all short, extending
in some instances, as I have said, only one mile from the rivers; and there is no
hay on these lots. At St. Boniface again, there is a portion of the parish, the point
at the junction of the Red and Assiniboine rivers, which would be difficult to arrange.
Until you get four miles from the point along both the rivers the lots do not run
out the four miles, but a square is formed inside the four miles which would be equal
to about half a mile each for the settlers here. It was proposed that this square
should be given to the people of Red River for four miles up, and to those on the
other river, for an equal distance, as a common pasturage. Having no hay grounds in
the district, the people of St. Boniface and St. Vital have asked as a hay privilege
the district extending from the seigniory as far as the Grand Coteau, which is some
four and a half miles from the river. If this district is granted them for hay purposes,
they would be well satisfied. I am also instructed to make the same report for the
people of Saint Vital
ST. CHARLES
Hon. Mr. Dauphinais reported. The people of that parish, he said, ask for the two-mile hay privilege,
and besides that, a reserve with the people of the White Horse Plain. This reserve
to extend from the mouth of the Assiniboine river, fifteen miles to the south, to
the Portage on the same line of fifteen miles wide — the river forming the northern
boundary. At the same time they desire that this grant shall not interfere in any
way with the privileges of the inhabitants to be included in the reserve. This reserve
was for the people of the White Horse Plains and all the people on the Assiniboine
and at the Portage, without exception.
OAK POINT
Hon. Mr. Harrison reported as follows — The people of Oak Point desire a reserve of nine miles on each
side of the main river. There is no hay at all on much of their land, and only at
a distance of eight miles from their houses can they get any. Should there be settlement
between them and these eight miles, then the settlers in that district would be entirely
excluded from hay.
ST. NORBERT
The committee for this parish met on the 24th April, in the parish school-house, and
was composed of the following gentlemen, namely, Pierre Paranteau, Norbert Larence,
Cyrille Marchand, Joseph Landry, Joseph Charrette, Regis Perrault, Baptiste Tourond,
Louis Morin, Jean Baptiste Rochels, Jean Baptiste Roy.
The decision come to was in the following terms:— "That the two miles of hay privilege,
such as it existed under the old Council of Assiniboia, be converted into property
in fee simple, and given to the occupants of the respective front lots."
PARISHES OF ST. FRANCOIS XAVIER AND
ST. PAUL
The committee for these parishes met on the 21st April, and was composed of the following
gentlemen, namely, Pierre Poitras (chairman), P. Dauphinais, Xavier Pagés, P. Thibert,
P. Lavallée, Louis Bonno, F. Morin, M. Lepine, Olivier Barron, Alphonse Thibert (secretary).
The following resolutions were adopted:—
"1. That a common for wood and hay purposes be set apart for the use of all the inhabitants
of the Assiniboine River, from Portage La Prairie to the mouth of said river — seeing
that without such help it is impossible for one portion of such inhabitants to subsist.
"2. That this common be situated on the south bank of the Assiniboine, and extend
from Portage La Prairie downwards to the last house at the lower or Eastern end of
the parish of St. François Xavier, being 15 miles wide throughout its length.
"3. That this common in no respect prejudice the rights of the inhabitants already
settled on the said south bank, nor of those ordinary rights acquired by persons who
might yet settle below or [East?] of the water-mill of Thibert and Co.
"4. That above this mill, as far as Pointe Coupée, lots half a mile long [can?] be
occupied by new inhabitants."
POINTE COUPEE
In this district the committee sat on the 6th of April. There were present: Hon. L.
Lacerte (chairman), Pierre Delorme (secretary), Joseph Ouellette, Jacques Ouellette,
Joseph Bérian, Baptiste Smith, Joseph Miller, Gabriel Lafournaise, Baptiste Dauphinais,
Alexandre Morin.
The following was the decision come to, viz:— "We wish to take our two miles of hay
privilege on the east side of the Red River; that is to say, two miles in length,
and of the same widths as those respectively of the lots we now own: Such privileged
ground to extend from the Coulée de Jacquot to Rivière aux Rats."
The President — If we are to look for our supplies of hay only from the
natural grasses of the prairie, when the country becomes settled then there will be
little or no hay. It cannot be expected that in order to preserve intact hay grounds,
the settlement of the country should be retarded. But, at the same time, under present
circumstances, provision must be made for these hay privileges. It is a real want,
but,
according to the reports just read, one to which the inhabitants of some sections
do not
attach the same importance as they do to other advantages connected with this hay
privilege. From St. Boniface, allusion is made to the Rivers crossing one another,
besides which there is the seigniory and other rivers and marshes, where hay cannot
be
made on the lands. There a hay reserve becomes a real want to the people, and the
same
may perhaps be said of other sections. From the reports it is apparent that some of
the
population regard the hay privilege for the sake of the hay. Others pay attention
to
other, and perhaps better advantages, such as wood, &c. From the French speaking
population these claims are made. The White Horse Plains and Assiniboine people are
looking for a reserve south of the Assiniboine — from the mouth of that river fifteen
miles south — without at all seeking to interfere with those having the privilege
of
four miles on the south side of the river. The claim is, that beyond that for fifteen
miles should be set apart as a reserve for the whole people of the Assiniboine on
both
sides of the river. The people of St. Boniface and St. Vital are looking for a reserve
limited by the river called La Compagnie Grace, the east side of the seigniory, and
a
line starting from the seigniory to the Grand Coteau. The people of Point Coupee are
asking for the two-mile hay privilege on the other side of the river, because there
is a
certain portion of the east shore of Red River there at Point Coupee which is not
settled at all. The people at Oak Point ask nine miles on each side of the river.
Hon. Mr. Hay — My instructions in being asked to form the committee were to
enquire into the two-mile hay privilege and report. This we did. But others went farther
and decided on asking for reserves. We had no idea of such a thing. Our instructions
were simply to consider the means of converting the hay privilege into ownership.
If
reserves are to be granted, our people might also ask for large grants.
The President — The committees all appear to have inquired into this
two-mile privilege, but they found in some places no possibility of securing such
a
privilege, and in these cases reserves were asked for.
Hon. Mr. Bunn contended that, under the resolution of the House, no reserves
could be asked for. The committees were struck to consider a certain question — the
two-mile hay privilege only. Looking at it from that point of view, I would suggest
that
the best way to dispose of the whole case is to appoint a committee to enquire into
it
fully.
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue — This is a question of very considerable moment, and
which occupied a good deal of time in the Convention held here before, and which will
likely occupy a good deal of our attention. At the Convention I said that this was
a
question on which would arise any amount of discussion — I believe I said endless
discussion and litigation. Many then insisted on having the grant made in fee simple
without any other consideration whatever. But, though a stranger in the country, I
foresaw the trouble which would arise from granting this two-mile privilege. My opinion
was then ridiculed. Now, hon. gentlemen find that it was correct. It was urged in
Convention that where a person could get this two-mile privilege, it ought to be his;
and where another could not get it, he ought to get an equivalent elsewhere. It is
ungenerous to say that those not having the two-mile hay privilege are to get none
at
all: Manifestly one section of the people cannot expect to obtain a very considerable
grant like this hay privilege while the other sections of the settlers receive no
compensating advantage. They ought in all fairness to be placed on an equal footing.
If
a portion of the people cannot enjoy a hay privilege immediately in rear of their
lots,
give them one elsewhere. The present Legislature is perhaps composed of men having
on
the whole a greater interest in this country than those in any future Legislature
may
have, and I think they ought to enact a fair law on this subject. If the great majority
get the four mile grant, the minority ought to get an equivalent in land also. And
if
the great majority require a reserve, I think the minority ought not to interfere
with
them (cheers). My desire is to make this land-grant as uniform as possible.
Hon. Mr. Tait — I understood the instructions given us with regard to the
formation of parish committees to extend further than to those enjoying the two-mile
privilege. To the people in my parish I explained that the object of the Assembly
was to
secure the people of the country against those who might come in (hear, hear). If
a man
was unfortunate enough to be living on a lot which had no back, I did not see then,
and
do not see now, that he should be deprived of a privilege equal to the man who has
always enjoyed the two-mile privilege. Why give one man a privilege in preference
to
another? (hear, hear). In addressing the House, the President made one remark in which
I
do not fully coincide. He places the people in the different districts in different
positions. As far as the White Horse Plains district is concerned, I think this is
not
the case. While the people there were working for themselves in asking for their
reserve, I believe they were also working for every man living on the Assiniboine
River,
and that they meant this reserve to be for the benefit of every man living on the
river.
The President — Your remark does not go against me at all. I said that the
reserve was designed for the inhabitants on both sides of the river (hear, hear).
Hon. Mr. Bunn — I want to know what is actually meant by the two-mile hay
privilege. I attach one meaning to it — to me the most obvious one. Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue
attaches another and a different meaning. As to the Indian title, I say it is very
doubtful to me if, even on the very ground we stand, the Indian title has been
extinguished. And I say further, let us beware how we interfere with Indian rights
in
any way.
The President — If the members, or any of them, forming these committees
have not taken the right view of their duties, it is for the House to say. They have
inquired into this question of the hay privilege and reported. It is for the House
now
to take action.
Hon. Mr. Bunn — I will never give a vote in favor of the proposed law until the Indian title is
extinguished.
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue — For my own part, as to the Indian claims, no one would
sooner see them fully satisfied than I would — and I am quite certain it is not the
desire or intention of the House, as it certainly is not of the Government, to
perpetuate or advocate any injustice towards the Indian tribes of the country. One
special condition we make with Canada is, that before we enter Confederation all the
Indian tribes of the country must be satisfactorily dealt with. This, observe, is
one of
the conditions we insist on. Seeing, then, that this is the desire of the Government,
I
do not see why the Indians should have any fear regarding this two-mile privilege.
Whatever title there is to it will, I presume, be fairly extinguished before possession
is entered on. Wherever the Indians do not claim any such titles this House can give
the
land to those desiring it. I say let the people of this country look after their own
interests first. It will be time enough to look after the interests of Confederation
when we are Confederated. More discussion on the point is, I think, unnecessary. If
the
majority of the House incline to the course, it might, perhaps, be prudent to let
matters in this respect remain as they are for some time to come, and appoint a
committee to consider the matter during the interval between the close of this session
and the convening of another (hear, hear).
Hon. Mr. McKay — I would say a few words regarding this Indian title. It is
the first time I have heard it discussed in this way since I came to Red River, and
I
must say that I am surprised it should come up at a time like this when we are providing
for the interests of the people of Red River and of the country at large. Looking
for
that, I considered that we were looking for the interests of the Indians also (cheers).
I do not hesitate to say that we ought to get this hay privilege: for I am sure it
would
not deprive the Indian of his right. As half-breeds we require wood and hay quite
as
much as the Indian does his rights; and if we take a reserve for our own use, I do
not
think for a moment that we are thereby depriving the Indian of any title. Since the
question of reserves has come up, I must say that I would strongly support such a
disposition of a portion of our lands. The fact is that by making these reserves,
the
Indians are benefitted: for so much of the land would thereby be kept for many years
in
its present shape. If these reserves are not granted, then the land may be sold before
long, and used as private property, and the Indians will not have the same right of
using the land as heretofore. I would like to see a reserve set apart for the people
of
the Assiniboine. I respect the Indians and all that live in the country. But at the
same
time I do not want to be deprived of my rights until the Indian claim is satisfied.
I
could go farther, and say — one quarter of me is Indian; and if the Indian title is
to
be respected, the rights of one-quarter of my person must be respected (cheers and
laughter). I am not at all afraid but that in my dealings with the Indians, I can
satisfy them without robbing them of any of their titles (cheers). (The hon. gentleman
repeated his address in Indian in which he is a very fluent and eloquent speaker.)
Hon. Mr. Fraser — It appears to me that the only question which ought of
right to be before the House is respecting the two mile hay privilege and not a large
land reserve. If our people thought it was a question of reserves [that] was before
them, I would have brought a very different report from the one I bring today. Our
committee were only invited to consider the hay and confined themselves to that. As
to
the Indian title, I think it was fully acknowledged sometime ago, at the Convention,
that the Indian has a title. I think this a matter of great importance and one which
should be very carefully considered: for we are none of us, I hope, desirous of
encroaching on Indian title.
The President — There is evidently a misunderstanding about this matter.
Some are looking for a hay privilege merely; some for wood; others for land for
cultivation. Before going further we ought to make a distinction and settle what is
really wanted.
Hon. Mr. Fraser called attention to the hay privilege bill passed last
session.
The President — That bill was passed expressly for the English population;
but it surely did not deprive the French population of their hay rights. If the French
people only thought about the English people in passing that bill, would it not be
good
for the sake of the French people if even now, a month after, their rights should
receive a little portion of public attention. Do, if you please, let them have what
they
want, if you think it fair (hear, hear). As we are looking for the hay privilege now,
would it not be well for the French population to express themselves as also in want
of
the hay privilege, even though they cannot get it immediately behind them. If they
do
come in, under the committees I made, let us do justice to them at all events
(cheers).
Hon. Mr. Fraser — I never thought there was to be a distinction between any
class of the people. I thought all our interests were one. The two-mile privilege
cannot
be secured to every one among the English any more than the French: so that there
would
have to be an extra provision made for the English as well as the French.
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue — I would beg to ask Hon. Mr. Fraser who was the framer
of the hay privilege bill to which he has just alluded?
Hon. Mr. O'Donoghue — Then it would be for me to explain it. That bill was
framed, first, because there appeared to be a great fear among the English people
that
they would not get this hay privilege. Some, in fact, went so far as to say that on
this
depended the whole prosperity of some districts, and that there was no use in going
back
to their constituents unless they got it. Mr. Sutherland said so, and I believe
expressed the sentiments of the English people generally. It seems strange to me that
gentlemen then supporting this measure should now offer opposition to any portion
of the
people getting this privilege. I was, myself, opposed to the measure in Convention,
but
fearing that I might be misinterpreted in my motives, I took the first opportunity
last
session to frame a bill myself, converting the privilege into absolute ownership.
But
knowing the difficulties in the way, I did not like to push the measure. Another bill
was brought in and [passed?] but there were some who did not understand it to refer
to
the lots in the [back?] but that it should be asked for wherever it could be got.
Hon. Mr. Bunn — Perhaps the importance of the question before the House will
be a sufficient apology for my getting up again. I do not think it is understood
sufficiently. It strikes me that the difference between us is, shall we convert this
into a fee simple property, or shall we guarantee that it be hereafter converted?
If
hon. members understand the question in this way, we would be perfectly agreed. There
is
not, I believe, a member here who would like to take this land until all fair claims
on
it were adjusted. But that is not the question before the House. The question is,
shall
we pass an act guaranteeing this land?
The President — Nobody in the country seems to want the two-mile hay
privilege in fee simple now. But at the same time let this Chamber work for the public
good on this question, so as to secure to every farmer, as far as possible, the same
privileges in one way or another. This question of the hay privilege seems to be
understood one way among the English and another way among the French. The whole
settlement is united — and we are glad to be united; but at the same time our
circumstances are not the same all over. A good deal has been said about Indian title,
but if hon. gentlemen would allow me I would suggest that it is, perhaps, impolitic
to
pursue this subject further. Let the inhabitants continue to make use of their old
land
privileges for the present, in one place or another; let them ask for what they want
by
general petition; and when that comes up, the Government will deal with it, and do
justice to all parties.
After [this] debate,
Hon. Mr. Donoghue moved that a special committee be appointed to enquire
further into this question of the Hay Privilege, and arrange it in a manner as
satisfactory to all as possible; and that the committee report this session; said
committee to be composed of Hon. Messrs. Bird, Fraser, Sinclair, McKay, Garrioch and
Bunn, and Hon. Messrs. O'Donoghue, Delorme, Touron, Dauphinais, Beauchemin and Bruce
—
committee to have the privilege of forming itself into two sub-committees if considered
desirable, but to amalgamate their reports before presentation to the House.
The resolution carried and at seven o'clock P.M., on motion of Hon. Mr. Bannatyne,
the House adjourned till next day.
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