Twelfth Day
Council Chamber, Upper Fort Garry
Monday, 7 February 1870
Two o'clock, P.M.— Convention in session. Roll called. Minutes read.
The three Canadian Commissioners, Grand-Vicar Thibeault [sic], Colonel DeSalaberry
and Mr. Donald A. Smith, were present — having been requested to attend.
The
Chairman recounted the circumstances which led to the drawing up of that list, and explained
that it did not profess to be a complete list. It did not propose to give in final
terms the views of the Convention respecting those points to which the list refers.
It must be therefore regarded as somewhat incomplete, not only as regards what it
omits, but also respecting what it embraces. But, continued the Chairman, it will,
I hope, sufficiently answer the purposes for which it was intended, that of conveying
to you, in terms as clear and definite as could be arrived at under the circumstances,
the views of this Convention, as representatives of the people, respecting those great
matters about which the minds of men in this Settlement are so much occupied.
Mr. Riel, in French,— We ought to welcome all three Commissioners from Canada. We are in a
position now to treat them with the utmost fair play and hear what they have to say
to us. We are here, as honorable men, to treat fairly — to make known our views honorably,—
and to be met, I hope, in the same spirit (cheers).
The List of Rights, which had been presented to Mr. Smith during the forenoon, was
read over by the Secretaries in English and French.
In response to a request from Mr. Riel, the three Commissioners addressed the Convention.
Grand Vicar Thibeault rose amid applause, and said in French — I have been sent here with Colonel DeSalaberry
to explain matters; and I can assure you I feel my responsibility in this respect.
It was part of my commission to come here and explain the action, which was going
to be taken by the Government, with Mr. McDougall. But finding Mr. McDougall gone,
and having to come to this country, according to my Commission,— I came on; we met
the Provisional Government, asked to be heard by them and were heard. When asked what
power we had, we said we had the power to consider nothing — we had power to conclude
nothing. We were trusted by the Canadian Government to a certain extent (cheers) —
and as such we counselled this course — a course which we were sure would be good
if the people of the country could adopt it: viz, to send a delegation to the Canadian
Government in order to treat with the Canadian Parliament. This delegation should
be invested with the necessary power to negotiate for what the nation wants (cheers).
I must say, of course, that this is more advice than anything else. But at the same
time I am certain that the delegation would be well received by the Canadian Government.
Since we have been before the Provisional Government, we have not done anything which
would be of interest to repeat at this moment. We have been merely judging of events,
and of the proper course of pacifying the people and establishing good order in the
country (cheers).
Col. DeSalaberry having been applauded, said — I feel the honor you have done me in calling me before
this Convention. I endorse every word which my honorable friend, the Grand Vicar,
has said, and have nothing additional to state. We were sent here with no power —
but merely to see the people, and give them our opinion as to what result would flow
from the proposed change of Government (cheers).
Mr. Riel — Without going further into details, I would like to hear from Mr. Smith what he
is in a position to guarantee — what power he has to meet our demands on behalf of
the Red River people. At this stage of our proceedings it is important to rely not
merely on opinion. We are not to be satisfied with what Mr. Smith thinks, but what
he can guarantee. I want some certainty, and not merely an expression of opinion on
what we desire. We are now in a position to make demands. How far is the Commissioner
in a position to guarantee them on behalf of the Canadian Government?
Mr. Ross — It might facilitate matters if this List of Rights were taken up article by article
and Mr. Smith's reply obtained to each.
Mr. Riel — I would like to hear from Mr. Smith, first, whether, without going into details,
Mr. Smith can say that he is in a position to grant us what we want. Is he, as Commissioner,
able to guarantee one single article of the list? We have seen his commission. There
is no restriction in it. If he can grant us one, he can go further.
Mr. Smith was cheered on rising, and said — From the form in which the question is put, I feel
a good deal of difficulty in replying. I believe that while I might have power in
regard to some of the articles, to assure you — so far as assurance can be given of
anything which has not yet occurred — I could not, at the same time, do so equally
in regard to the whole. My Commission, you have had before you, in exact terms. And
in addition, before leaving, I had communication with the Government, and know their
views generally (hear, hear). I presume this is all the answer the question requires.
Were I permitted to explain my views, as to what the Canadian Government would be
willing to do for this country, I would have much pleasure in doing so.
Mr. Riel — Is your commission such as to enable you to guarantee us even a single article
of the List of Rights?
Mr. Smith — I believe that the nature of my commission is such that I can give assurances —
full assurances — so far as any such guarantee can be given — that the Government
of the Dominion would so place the right guaranteed before Parliament that it would
be granted. This would be done in some instances —
Mr. Smith — As to all the Rights, in the form in which they have been handed me, I certainly
cannot answer.
Mr. Riel — So you cannot guarantee us even a single article in that List?
Mr. Smith — I have tried to explain to the Convention that I believe my powers to be sufficient
to admit of my guaranteeing,— so far as anything can be guaranteed which is not yet
passed by Parliament — certain articles in this List.
Mr. Riel — I like the word "believe," but would like better "I am certain."
Mr. Smith — I can say I feel assured. That is a stronger word. There is no certainty in anything
which has not yet taken place.
Mr. Riel — So your authority here as Commissioner, has not taken place?
Mr. Smith — My authority as Commissioner has certainly "taken place," as you term it. But when
I left Canada, next to nothing was known of the position here. The Government were
consequently not in a position to point out to me certain articles and indicate their
policy on them. They did not know what the desires of the people here were, or what
they really considered their rights. The List of Rights at first drawn up, came into
my hands certainly, but not in Canada. Had that list been in my hands at Ottawa,—
had I been able to go over the different articles and say, Here, gentlemen, is No.
1, is that to be granted? I would then have known to a certainty how to pronounce
on the several articles.
Mr. Riel — As you left Canada after the Grand Vicar and Colonel DeSalaberry, perhaps you received
more authority, as the Canadian Government would then have been better informed of
the events in this country. Is your authority as Commissioner greater than that of
your two Co-Commissioners?
Mr. Smith — I feel that that it is different from that of the others, to some extent. I may
say now, that it gives me the greatest pleasure indeed to meet these gentlemen here
as fellow Commissioners. Like them I can have but one wish, and that is, that as soon
as possible a settlement should be arrived at, satisfactory to the country and Canada,—
believing, as I do, that the interests of both countries are identical (cheers). These
gentlemen left Canada before me; but it was intended when I left Ottawa that I should
overtake them, and that we should have gone together very much on the way. But a matter
of business detained me, so that they arrived here first. I may add, that it was with
some reluctance I first undertook this Commission. I recommended others in whom I
had every confidence, but had ultimately to accept the position myself.
Mr. Riel — I am glad to hear you say that you believe your Commission contained a little more
authority perhaps than that of those two gentlemen. Show, then, that you have more
power. They cannot guarantee anything. If your power is greater, you can guarantee
something.
Mr. Smith — I will have much pleasure in pointing out so much of the List as I can guarantee.
Mr. Riel — So you can guarantee us some articles in the sense of the word "guarantee."
Mr. Smith — Yes; but perhaps you would be good enough to explain your idea of the word guarantee.
Mr. Riel — A pledge that the Canadian Government will be ready to sanction by act of Parliament
what you say will be granted.
Mr. Smith — The Government will certainly bring the matter before Parliament, but it is the
Parliament which must finally decide.
Mr. Riel — You are embarrassed. I see you are a gentleman and do not wish to press you. I
see that the Canadian Government has not given you all the confidence which they ought
to have put in your hands. At the same time we will hear your opinion, although we
are satisfied you cannot grant us, nor guarantee us anything by the nature of your
commission.
The
Chairman then addressed Mr. Smith as follows:— In your capacity as Commissioner, I believe
you will act conscientiously toward the Red River people and the Government of Canada
(cheers). We understand fully the difficulty, delicacy and responsibility of your
position; and as we feel that you are dealing conscientiously with us, we will not
be surprised if, in the face of the strong demands made, you stand still and consider
whether your powers enable you to speak with that degree of positive assurance which
no doubt would be desired by the Convention (cheers).
Mr. Smith I will now proceed to the List of Rights. I have been up to time, but in the short
period allowed me to think over these articles, I have been able to throw together
only a few thoughts. Two hours is but a very short time to consider a document which
has occupied the time of this Convention some eleven or twelve days. With regard to
article one, the Convention has already had a communication to the effect that the
Dominion Government had provided by Order-in-Council for the continuance of the present
tariff of duties in the Territory for at least two years; and I feel convinced that
the Government will be prepared to recommend to Parliament such measures as will meet
the views of the Convention as expressed in this article. The article is as follows:—
"1. That in view of the present exceptional position of the North-West, duties upon
goods imported into the country shall continue as at present (except in the case of
spirituous liquors) for three years, and for such further time as may elapse until
there is uninterrupted railroad communication between Red River Settlement and Saint
Paul, and also steam communication between Red River Settlement and Lake Superior."
Article 2 is as follows:—
"2. That as long as this country remains a Territory in the Dominion of Canada, there
shall be no direct taxation except such as may be imposed by the Local Legislature
for municipal or other purposes."
"Article 3. That during the time this country shall remain a Territory in the Dominion
of Canada, all military, civil and other public expenses in connection with the general
Government of the country, or that have hitherto been borne by the public funds of
the Settlement — beyond the receipt of the above mentioned duties,— shall be met by
the Government of Canada."
I have taken these two articles together, as I thought the one answer would apply
equally. My answer is this — I believe that the Canadian Government will ask the Dominion
Parliament to meet the views of the Convention and their constituents in respect to
these articles.
Article 4 of the list is as follows:—
"4. That while the burden of public expense in this Territory is borne by Canada,
the country be governed under a Lieutenant-Governor from Canada, and a Legislature,
three members of whom, being heads of departments of the Government, shall be nominated
by the Governor-General of Canada."
To this I would say — When I had the honor of conferring with members of the Canadian
Government, they assured me of their desire to consult the wishes of the people of
the Territory in respect to matters connected with the composition of the Local Legislature;
and their intention was, that as soon as the North-West became a part of the Confederation,
that at least two-thirds of the members of the Council should be selected from among
the residents. I was commissioned to assure the people of this. For the time being,
Councillors under the former Government were to retain their seats,— that is, in the
Government of the Hudson Bay Company, which at the time I left Ottawa was the only
Government known in Canada. It would have been for that Council to have recommended
to the Dominion Government any alterations they might deem necessary for placing the
Local Government more in accordance with the wants and wishes of the community. These
recommendations would be introduced in a bill to be submitted to Parliament.
Mr. Riel, (indignantly) — It is only for the sake of this Convention that I could tolerate
the liberty you have taken in making such a statement.
The
Chairman — I think there is some misapprehension here.
Mr. Smith — I would regret saying anything to offend; but in my view of it, there is really
nothing requiring correction in what I have said, or intended to say. I am speaking
of the views of the Government as explained to me — not what I think of the matter
at this moment. I am speaking of —
Mr. Smith — What instructions I then received, and giving it merely to show my reasons for
what I did afterwards.
Mr. Smith — I mentioned before that I had a verbal communication from the Government in regards
to many matters, and I am trying to act on that.
Mr. Riel — This is a matter of such serious import that we can deal only with your papers
as Commissioner. We all believe in the word of a gentleman; but in so serious a case
we must have something more definite.
Mr. Smith — The understanding I had with them, as a Government, was very distinct, that the
Council here, as in the first instance constituted, would as soon as possible be replaced
by a Legislature to be chosen by the people. Bearing this in mind I did not hesitate
to give it as my opinion that the Dominion Government will ask Parliament to provide
a liberal Government for the country while it remains a Territory. The fifth article
says:—
"5. That after the expiration of this exceptional period the country shall be governed
as regards its local affairs as the Provinces of Ontario and Quebec are now governed,
by a Legislature elected by the people, and a ministry responsible to it, under a
Lieutenant Governor appointed by the Governor-General of Canada."
With regard to this, I have the most explicit assurance from the Canadian Government
that such will be the case. Article 6 says:—
"6. That there shall be no interference by the Dominion Parliament in the local affairs
of this Territory, other than is allowed in the Confederated Provinces; and that this
Territory shall have and enjoy, in all respects, the same privileges, advantages and
aids, in meeting the public expenses of this Territory, as the other provinces in
Confederation have and enjoy."
For this I believe the Dominion Government will provide in a liberal spirit. Article
7 says:—
"7. That while the North-West remains a Territory the Legislature have a right to
pass all laws local to the Territory over the veto of the Lieutenant-Governor by a
two-thirds vote."
This article brings up some constitutional considerations, with which it would be
unpardonable presumption on my part were I to deal summarily. But I would repeat most
distinctly that the Dominion Government will pay the utmost deference to the wishes
of the Convention as regards this and all other matters in connection with the Government
of the country; and I have full confidence that the decision arrived at, will be acceptable
to the people. Article 8 is:—
"8. A Homestead and Pre-emption Law."
It has already been intimated to me by the Canadian Government, with a view of its
being made known to the people of the Settlement, that all property held by residents
in peaceable possession, will be secured to them; and that a most liberal land policy
in regard to the future settlement of the country, will be adopted,— every privilege
in this respect enjoyed in Ontario or Quebec, being extended to this Territory. Article
9 states:—
"9. That while the North-West remains a Territory the sum of $25,000 a year be appropriated
for schools, roads and bridges."
In respect to this article, it may be better that I should not speak as to any particular
sum; but I feel quite certain that an amount even exceeding that here mentioned, will
be appropriated for the purposes referred to. I can give an assurance that this will
be done.
Mr. Smith — As great an assurance as I can give of anything else. The tenth article says:—
"10. That all public buildings be at the cost of the Dominion Treasury."
To that I have to say — That the Dominion Government will defray the cost of all public
buildings required for the general business of the Territory, I can safely promise
(cheers). Article 11 says:—
"11. That there shall be guaranteed uninterrupted steam communication to Lake Superior
within five years, and also the establishment by rail of a connection with the American
railway as soon as it reaches the international line."
I do not hesitate to give this assurance, as the works on the Lake Superior route,
which have been progressing actively since the early part of last summer, will doubtless
be completed much within the specified time. As to the railway to Pembina, shortly
after the American line reaches that place, it will certainly be carried out. If I
might be permitted a remark with respect to this article I would say, that I would
not be loath to make a personal promise. I have seen a number of prominent men, connected
with large undertakings in England as well as in Canada. The matters alluded to in
this article have been spoken of, and I know all are most anxious to push on with
such undertakings, knowing that it will be for their own interest to do so. In this
way, I have no doubt that private enterprise will shortly accomplish such undertakings
as are here proposed. Shortly before leaving Canada, I myself was in business connection
with such men as Mr. Hugh Allan, Mr. A. Allan, of the steamboat line; Mr. King, President
of the Bank of Montreal; Mr. Redpath, the owner of one of the most extensive establishments
in Canada; and other men of note there. Our object was, to get up a Rolling Stock
Company. In the first instance we had, I think, a contract for some 500 cars. And
some fine day I hope that the townsmen of Winnipeg will see some of these cars making
their way across the prairie (cheers). I hope you will see them coming laden with
the manufactures of Canada, and returning laden with the surplus products of the country.
Though I have some connection with the Hudson Bay Company, I may also say that I have
been largely connected with public enterprises. In connection with some men of standing
I have been connected with other enterprises. I have had considerable interest in
a large woollen mill in Cornwall. Some of our blankets have already come in here,
and no doubt many more will come in, as they are better and cheaper than others. I
hope yet to see men come in here, establish such manufactures, use up your wool, and
circulate more money in the place (cheers). This they will do, no doubt, as soon as
they will find it to their advantage (cheers).
Mr. Riel — I thought Canada was about to speculate on us.
Mr. Smith — It is a matter of business; and I am sure the people here would be very happy to
have such people coming among them (cheers). The twelfth article is:—
"12. That the English and French languages be common in the Legislature and Courts,
and that all public documents and acts of the Legislature, be published in both languages."
As to this I have to say, that its propriety is so very evident, that it will unquestionably
be provided for. Article 13:—
"13. That the Judge of the Supreme Court speak the French and English languages."
The answer given to the foregoing, will apply equally here. The fourteenth article
says:—
"14. That treaties be concluded between the Dominion and the several Indian tribes
of the country, as soon as possible."
Fully alive to the necessity of doing this, the Dominion Parliament will not fail
to take an early opportunity of dealing with this matter with the view of extinguishing,
in an equitable manner the claims of the Indians — so that settlers may obtain clear
and undisputable titles. The fifteenth article is:—
"15. That we have four representatives in the Canadian Parliament — one in the Senate
and three in the Legislative Assembly." The Convention will not expect me to say definitely
as to the number of representatives to be elected in the Territory, for the Canadian
Parliament. But I can promise that the circumstances and requirements of the country
will be fully and liberally considered in making the allotment. The sixteenth article
is as follows:—
"16. That all the properties, rights and privileges, as hitherto enjoyed by us, be
respected, and that the recognition and arrangement of local customs, usages and privileges,
be made under the control of the Local Legislature." On the part of the Canadian Government
as well as of Her Majesty's Representative in British North America — and also as
coming immediately from the Sovereign — assurances have been given to all, that the
properties, rights and privileges hitherto enjoyed by the people of the Territory
would be respected; and I feel sure that the Dominion Government will, with pleasure,
[accede?] to the Local Legislature, the recognition and arrangement of local customs,
usages, and privileges. The seventeenth article says:—
"17. That the Local Legislature of this Territory have full control of all the public
lands inside a circumference, having Upper Fort Garry as a centre; and that the radii
of this circumference be the number of miles that the American line is distant from
Fort Garry."
With regard to this article, my knowledge of the country and of the extent to which
this concession might affect public works &c. is too limited to admit of my expressing
any decided opinion on the subject further than that full and substantial justice
will be done in the matter. The eighteenth article:
"18. That every man in this country except uncivilized and unsettled Indians, who
has attained the age of twenty-one years, and every British subject, a stranger to
this Territory, who has resided three years in this country, and is a householder
shall have the right to vote at the election of a member to serve in the Legislature
of the country, and in the Dominion Parliament; and every foreign subject, other than
a British subject, who has resided the same length of time in the country, and is
a householder, shall have the same right to vote, in condition of his taking the oath
of allegiance — it being understood that this article be subject to amendment exclusively
by the Local Legislature."
Without entering into the details of the article, I would say, that the franchise
will be so adjusted as to be altogether satisfactory to the public, both native and
emigrant, and in a manner which will conduce to the general welfare. The nineteenth
article says:—
"19. That the North-West Territory shall never be held liable for any portion of the
£300,000 paid to the Hudson Bay Company, or for any portion of the public debt of
Canada, as it stands at the time of our entering the Confederation; and if thereafter
we be called upon to assume our share of said public debt, we consent only on condition
that we first be allowed the amount for which we shall be held liable."
My belief is that the Canadian Government has no intention of imposing on the North-West
Territory the payment of any portion of the £300,000; and I have so much confidence
that they will be [illegible: possessed?], in every respect, by wise and just motives,
that in arranging for the distribution of the public debt of Canada, the North-West
Territory will not be held liable for anything unfair; in short, that here, as in
every other particular, substantial justice will be done (cheers). Having gone through
the articles, may I now be permitted to say a few words? Your list is not only long,
but contains many things of great importance. In coming here first, I had no idea
of it! Nor had the Canadian Government. However I was authorized by them, as Commissioner,
to do what in my judgement might appear best in the state of public affairs here.
It was thought, at the same time, that there might be some points raised which I really
could not deal personally with any satisfaction to the people of the country. This
being the case, and looking at the suggestion put forward by the Very Reverend the
Grand Vicar, with reference to a delegation from this country to Canada,— I have now
on the part of the Dominion Government — and as authorized by them — to invite a delegation
of the residents of Red River, to meet and confer with them at Ottawa (cheers). A
delegation of two or more of the residents of Red River — as they may think best —
the delegation to confer with the Government and Legislature, and explain the wants
and wishes of the Red River people, as well as to discuss and arrange for the representation
of the country in Parliament (cheers). I felt that, this being the case, it was less
necessary for me to deal very particularly with these matters. On the part of the
Government I am authorised to offer a very cordial reception to the delegates who
may be sent from this country to Canada (loud cheers). I myself feel every confidence
that the result will be such as will be entirely satisfactory to the people of the
North-West. It is, I know, the desire of the Canadian Government that it should be
so (cheers).
Mr. Riel in French, as translated by Mr. Flett, said — Since we have met, this may be said,
in certain measure, to be the first work we have accomplished. And it would be too
bad to leave it to stand alone, when so much ought really to follow from it. I did
not wish to interrupt Mr. Smith, but there was plenty of room for discussing what
he had been saying. There is a great deal to be done yet, and I hope the Convention
will not tire until everything has been done which ought to be done. I cannot but
look on the Commissioners with great respect, and especially Mr. Smith, who came pretty
near to our desires, and has invited a delegation to go to Canada with the assurance
that they would be cordially received, and that they could make a final arrangement
when they went there. A great part of our own work, let me again remind you, has to
be performed, and that is, the establishment of order, peace and security in the country
(cheers).
The
Chairman — I believe you will all concur with me in expressing a sense of satisfaction at
having had the pleasure and honor of meeting here the three gentlemen who have favored
us with their presence, the Grand Vicar, Mr. Smith and Colonel DeSalaberry (cheers).
I think I might take the meeting in my own hands to the extent of telling the three
gentlemen how much we are indebted to them for their interview, and for having afforded
us the explanations which have been laid before us — more particularly as we feel,
from the manner in which their statements have been made, that there seemed to be,
on the part of all three, a simple, honest desire to deal in a frank, fair, friendly
spirit with us. Therefore (addressing the Commissioners) I desire on the part of the
meeting to offer each of you, gentlemen, our respectful acknowledgements.
At half past seven the Convention adjourned till ten o'clock next morning.
This individual participated in:
