Fifth Day
Council Chamber, Upper Fort Garry
Saturday, 29 January 1870
Ten o'clock, A.M. — English and French Representatives again in session.
The minutes having been read and confirmed and the roll called,
Dr. Bird, the Secretary of the Committee appointed to draw up the Bill of Rights, presented
the list prepared by the committee, which was handed to the Secretaries. The document
was one containing a list of demands in the event of the country entering the Dominion
as a Territory.
Mr. Riel said — The committee preparing this list of rights, had not much time given them,
and have labored almost continually at it during the last forty-eight hours. Mr. Jas.
Ross was Chairman and Dr. Bird Secretary, and as to our labors I may say that we do
not undertake to report all that was said and done. We resolved to report to the Convention
the points on which we agreed, without giving a further knowledge of our proceedings.
As far as possible, I may say in the name of the committee, we endeavored to deal
with the principal points; and we must rely on the Convention to finish the work we
have begun (cheers).
Mr. Ross, as Chairman of the Committee, wished to say a few words before the document was
read. We felt, he said, a serious responsibility in drawing up this document. We felt
great difficulty in arriving at conclusions which so vitally affect the welfare of
the country; and for that reason, although you were good enough to give us additional
time, we were very much hurried. We sat here till near three o'clock this morning
and were back again at eight, to finish, such was our anxiety to enable the Convention
to sit this morning, as arranged (cheers). In justice to ourselves we must say that
we were under the circumstances, obliged to present the document in a very crude shape,—
one in which we would not like it to go to the outer world. We must therefore bespeak
your indulgence, if you find the form defective. I would say further, that in the
consideration of the conclusions at which we have arrived, we would ask that it be
done in a calm, friendly spirit (cheers).
The Chairman — As the organ of the Convention, I cannot do less than express my cordial approval
of the remarks made by Mr. Riel and Mr. Ross. The Convention can very well understand
the sense of responsibility under which the committee discharged their very important
duties. I am quite sure the Convention will give this paper that calm consideration
which has been bespoken for it, and further will believe that the utmost diligence
has been used in its preparation. It may be that this paper contains things which
may strike different members very forcibly in different ways. But we must not be carried
away with first,— or perhaps even with second thoughts. The file is very slow in its
work, but we must remember that it produces good polish eventually. And in endeavoring
to turn out a good article we must place ourselves in a somewhat similar position
to that of a file, and patiently do what we can to make the article satisfactory in
the long run (cheers).
The Bill of Rights was then handed to the Secretaries and read in English and French.
Mr. O'Donoghue moved that the Convention consider the list of rights,— that article by article be
taken up,— and if possible that it be finished that night.
The
Chairman — In reference to the position of the paper before us, I would say a word or two.
It was stated on the part of the committee, that, while they had done their very best
in its preparation, they did not wish to put it forward as a final and complete document
which might not require alteration at the hands of the Convention; but as one which
they believed to embody the main things to be attended to in this negotiation with
Mr. Smith, as Commissioner from Canada. It is therefore important members should observe
that this paper is at present under trial and is not to be put forward as our final
decision until it has undergone that scrutiny which has been invited for it by members
of the committee.
Mr. Fraser moved in amendment that the Convention adjourn for an hour.
Mr. O'Donoghue having withdrawn his amendment, Mr. Fraser's motion was put and carried, and the
Convention adjourned at noon.
One o'clock, P.M. — Convention again in session.
List of Rights taken up, article by article:—
"1. That in view of the present exceptional position of the North-West, duties upon
goods imported into the country, shall continue as at present (4 per cent) for _____
years, and for such further time as may elapse until there be uninterrupted communication
between Winnipeg and St. Paul."
Mr. O'Donoghue moved that the blank be filled up with the figure "5." This figure was specified
in another article which related to the building of a railway to this country.
Mr Bunn — I do not like fixing the term at five years. Although we demand a railway from
Canada within five years, it does not necessarily follow that she will not build one
sooner.
Mr. Ross — I would state what I conceive to be an objection against Mr. O'Donoghue's resolution,
as a matter of form. He would make the article provide that the duties continue as
at present five years,— or for such further time as may elapse before railroad communication
is established. This would seem to imply that it might be more than five years before
we got railroad communication, whereas we expressly provide, further on, that we must
have railroad communication within five years.
Mr. O'Donoghue — I have no objection to providing that the present scale of duties should only last
till the railroad is built.
The Chairman — Why should there be any period specified? Though there is a prospect of railroad
communication between this country and Canada, there is no certainty. The basis on
which this article appears to be framed is, that our position appears to be so peculiar
that we must have a guarantee for exemption from additional taxation, or have a railroad.
That being the case,— and remembering that we have been told by Canada, without any
demand on our part, that we are to be exempt from duties for two years,— why not,
at all events, take the benefit of that guarantee for that period? Let us accept the
period Canada proposed, and say — let the period be two years; or until such further
time as she may succeed in effecting uninterrupted communication.
Mr. O'Donoghue — Mr. Black considers it voluntary on the part of Canada to give us the two year
exemption. I consider it compulsory, and that it was drawn from Canada. I do not consider
that in our present independent state, Canada is in a position to dictate to us. I
would substitute the figure "3" for "5," and add, "or until such other time as there
is direct communication."
It was suggested and adopted that the words "rail or steamboat" be placed after "uninterrupted."
Mr. Boyd — At present the American railway is nearly at Georgetown. A steamer can ply between
Georgetown and Winnipeg this summer; and hence the Canadian Government might now have
uninterrupted railroad and steamboat communication, and at once force on us the increased
duties (hear hear).
Mr. Sutherland could not see how, in winter for instance, it could be said, there was uninterrupted
steamboat communication (laughter).
Mr. Cummings thought the word "Winnipeg" in the article out of place, as the railroad company,
possibly, might not think that the best terminus.
The words "Red River Settlement" were inserted instead of "Winnipeg."
Mr. Scott cautioned members against limiting closely the period within which present duties
should continue. The duties are asked to be low, because it cost largely to transport
goods. But if only one railroad were built through, freight would not be lessened
much.
Mr. Gunn — How would it do to say, until such time as either a railroad or good water communication
were established between this and Lake Superior?
Mr. Bunn approved of Mr. Scott's remarks. There was no doubt we would have a railroad, whether
we asked it or not. At the next sitting of the Canadian Parliament, charters would
be applied for. Mr. O'Donoghue's motion would be improved by adding to it,— "Until
such time as we have uninterrupted railroad communication with Lake Superior."
This was agreed to, and the paragraph amended accordingly.
Mr. Sutherland suggested a further amendment. At present certain goods were exempt from paying duty,
and others paid higher than the four per cent,— such as liquor. The article would
have to be changed in this respect.
Mr. Ross — In one of the lists — for there were several made out in committee — the exception
in the case of spirituous liquors was made. But it has been lost in the course of
copying.
The article was amended in this respect.
An objection was raised to the use of the word "and for such further time," &c. An
amendment that the word "or" should be substituted, was defeated; and the article
put and carried in the following form:—
"1. That in view of the present exceptional position of the North-West, duties upon
goods imported into the country shall continue as at present (except in the case of
spirituous liquors) for three years, and for such further time as may elapse until
there be uninterrupted railroad communication between Red River Settlement and Lake
Superior."
Article 2 was then put, It was as follows:—
"That during this period, there shall be no direct taxation except such as may be
imposed by the local legislature for municipal or other local purposes."
Mr. Fraser, seconded by Mr. Klyne, moved the adoption of the article.
In accordance with an amendment, moved by
Mr. Riel, seconded by Mr. O'Donoghue and adopted, the words "That during this period" were
struck out, and the words "as long as this country remains a Territory in the Dominion
of Canada," were inserted instead.
Article adopted.
Article 3 next came up:—
"3. That during the said period all military, civil and other public expenses in connection
with the general government of the country,— or that have hitherto been borne by the
public funds of the Settlement, beyond the receipt of the above mentioned duties,
shall be met by the Dominion of Canada."
Mr. Bunn moved the article, and that the words "That during the said period," be struck out,
and instead thereof, the following be inserted. "That during the time this country
shall remain in the position of a Territory within the Dominion of Canada."
Article 4:—
"4. That while the burden of public expense in this Territory is borne by Canada,
the country be governed under a Lieut. Governor from Canada, and a legislature consisting
of _____ persons, of whom _____ be chosen by the people, and _____, being heads of
departments of the Government, be nominated by the Governor-General of Canada."
Mr. Bunn proposed that the blanks be filled up with figures 20, 15 and 5. This would make
the Legislature to consist of 20,— 15 from Red River and 5 to be nominated by the
Governor-General.
Mr. Riel proposed in amendment that the Governor-General only have the power of nominating
two.
Mr. Riel — This is an important matter we are called on to decide, and the time will come
when it will be more apparent.
Mr. Laronce — The main point is to decide how many we are to admit from Canada. Our own representation
we can decide ourselves.
Mr. Bunn — I would point out that though the Governor-General has the power of nominating
some heads of departments, it does not follow that he will nominate Canadians.
Mr. Riel — If we could be certain these heads of departments would be chosen here, it would
make all the difference.
The Chairman — I do not think that the proposition to give Canada only two members would be well
received in Canada. If we get fifteen representatives to their five, we certainly
have a preponderating voice — quite enough to control affairs (cheers). When we consider
the burdens Canada is to be asked to undertake for us,— when we look at the advantages
the country will derive from the Government of Canada — when we consider how much
the country will be elevated and its importance increased by union with Canada, it
seems to me that the proportion of two to eighteen is unjust, so far as Canada is
concerned. I am clearly in favor of Red River having a preponderance in the Legislature,—
but with fifteen to five from Canada, it seems to me that our desires ought to be
satisfied.
Mr. O'Donoghue — In introducing a Council here at first, Canada did so thinking there were no people
here fit to conduct the public business of the Territory. Again, when we enter the
Confederation, no small part of what we expect to gain must come from the Dominion.
Hence I think that two of those very smart gentlemen from Canada to eighteen of us,
would be enough.
Mr. Riel spoke in French and as interpreted by
Mr Ross said — I highly approve of Mr. O'Donoghue's remarks. The matter strikes me in this
way— that if Canada is exceedingly ambitious to have a strong representation in this
Council, it shows her desire to further the interest of Confederation more than the
interest of this country.
Mr. Sutherland suggested, as a compromise, that four instead of two, be nominated by Canada.
Mr. Riel — Say three and a half (laughter).
Mr Thibert — A statement came from Canada that we are an ignorant lot. And if she thinks so,
she ought to be satisfied with three members, who should have full and fair play to
work us round and round (laughter).
Mr. Bunn — I am only acting in the interest of this country when I urge strongly that Canada
should be allowed to nominate a reasonable number. We have now a golden opportunity
to secure our own interests, and let us not lose it by being illiberal and ungenerous
(cheers). We are here to make a good bargain with Canada; and as long as we make the
best possible bargain that is enough.
Mr. Thibert suggested that three should be allowed [illegible: to Canada, in addition?] to the
Governor.
Mr. K. Mackenzie — I do not see the necessity of a great many coming down from Canada. People here
are better acquainted with affairs and their management, than Canadians.
Mr. D. Gunn — I am as fond of making a good bargain as any. But I think it would not be going
too far to give Canada three or four besides the Governor.
Mr. Cummings — I will vote for the original motion. I have no doubt that some of those in the
room will be high in office under the new order of things. Perhaps even the Prime
Minister is here (cheers and laughter).
Mr. Flett (in French), I am in favor of the suggestion thrown out by Mr. Thibert, that there
be three appointed by Canada, besides the Governor. We need not limit the number of
our representatives. We have plenty, and half-breeds are never greedy though they
take a good share (laughter). I understand that Mr. Riel is in favor of three besides
the Governor.
Mr. Riel — I did not say so, but I will withdraw my amendment and say the number to be appointed
by Canada shall be three, with the Governor, leaving the Convention to decide how
many representatives shall sit for this country.
Mr. Bunn — Mr. Riel's amendment makes matters worse, inasmuch as it binds the Canadian Government
to three, and allows us to send as many representatives as we like. In this way we
might allow them, in proportion, even a smaller representation than previously proposed.
After some further debate,
Mr. Riel said — For my part I would like to see the power of Canada limited in this country.
That is what I want.
Mr. O'Donoghue urged that the number of Red River representatives be left an open question, as the
country was not yet divided into districts and no census had been taken.
Mr. O'Donoghue moved in amendment to the amendment, that the number of the Legislature be equal
to that of the former Council here, twenty-four; and that the country be divided into
twenty-four districts.
No one having seconded the motion, it dropped.
Mr. Fraser — In my opinion twenty representatives would be large enough for the management of
our local affairs. As our population increases we could have power to increase our
representation in proportion.
Mr. O'Donoghue — I want a good many representatives, believing that where the number is large there
is less liability to corruption. We might be grasping, if there were only a few of
us.
Dr. Bird thought that the total number of representatives had been fixed at twenty already.
Nobody had moved an amendment to change that number.
Mr Bunn proposed that the numbers be fifteen to five, and to this
Mr Riel had moved an amendment, that Canada nominate only three. As to
Mr. O'Donoghue's argument, that Canada herself only asked two, and we were very liberal in giving
her three, there might be some weight in it, but for the fact, that in claiming two
it was intended that the council should be only fifteen. I think a great deal of illiberality
has been shown in this matter. When another article of the list of rights comes under
discussion, you will see that we are going to claim four seats in the Canadian Parliament,
two, or in reality, four times as many as we have any right to. If we are going to
ask so much, we should set an example of liberality (hear, hear).
Mr. Ross — I propose, in amendment, that we have sixteen representatives from this country
in the Local Legislature — four to be nominated by Canada. The latter may be residents
of the Settlement; but even supposing they are foreigners, they would still be only
four to our sixteen. If we saw these four at any time seeking to outwit us, or do
anything against our interests — if we saw any chicanery on their part, or an attempt
to use improper means to influence us — what would be the result? Such a course on
their part would be the very means of uniting our sixteen against them and ensuring
their defeat (cheers). In any event, I do not think we need fear four men,— come from
where they choose — as against our sixteen representatives (hear, hear). Come from
where they may, we can pick up, even in this room, as good men as any of them (cheers).
There are some reasons, it appears to me, why we should give Canada a good representation.
We are making a good bargain with her. Canada is going to spend a large amount of
money in this country. And though I am sure, if we were trusted with its disbursement
we would not do so unjustly; still, those who are to spend this money are far away
from us, and naturally feel a little anxiety as to how the funds are to be expended.
I say, then, by all means allow these people a reasonable representation. There is
a kind of propriety in giving them four, for the reason that there are four Provinces
at present in Confederation, and it seems but reasonable to allow a representative
of each to sit with us, and see how the money is being disposed of. Let them have
the four; and if we can get the money by giving them that number of representatives,
I say we have made a good bargain.
Mr. O'Donoghue — I think four too much out of twenty. As to the money to be sent here, I believe
the people are honest enough to spend it wisely. What is to be spent will be in the
interests of the Dominion, and from it they expect to reap one hundred fold. Besides,
I think Mr. Ross's amendment out of order as Mr. Bunn made a similar one.
Mr. Riel, after translating Mr. O'Donoghue's remarks into French, said — I still feel strongly
opposed to allowing so many to be nominated from Canada. In yielding my original position
and granting three instead of two, I almost felt as if I had done wrong. We have no
business to give way to Canada in this matter. She is coming here to enrich herself.
Our country is larger than the four Provinces in Confederation put together, and in
coming here, she is not going to be baulked by one member, more or less.
Mr. Ross's amendment was put and lost on the following vote: Yeas 19; nays 20.
Mr. Riel's amendment, that not more than three be nominated by Canada, then came up.
Mr. Sutherland proposed that the numbers be eighteen and three,— Dropped.
It was put and carried.
The fourth article then stood thus:—
"4. That, while the burden of public expense in this Territory is borne by Canada,
the country be governed under a Lieut. Governor from Canada and a Legislature, three
members of whom, being heads of departments of the Government, shall be nominated
by the Governor-General of Canada."
Convention adjourned at half past seven, to meet again Monday at one o'clock.
This individual participated in:
