5 THE LEADER, THURSDAY EVENING, OCTOBER 15, 1896.
THE LEGISLATURE.
An Able Speech by the Member for Moose Jaw.
the Requirements and claims of
The Territories from Parliament well set Froth-Further Considerations of School Legislation-
Doctors' Fees and General Notes.
Thursday, 8th October, 1896.
CLAIM FOR INCREASED POWERS - ROSS
MAKES OUT A STRONG CASE- SOMETHING MUST BE DONE - THE HOUSE UNANIMOUS
Mr. Ross, in rising to move the adoption of a motion which had been some time before the
House, said he wished to refer to the position of the Assembly regarding memorials
to the Parliament of Canada, the position they had been in heretofore, and his opinion
with regard to what views should be given, and at what time, to the committee he
proposed, should it be appointed. It was nothing new for the House to memorialize
the Dominion Government in regard to subjects contained in the motion he was proposing.
As far back as 1886 the North-West Council saw fit not only to memorialize the Dominion
Government, but send a delegation to Ottawa to press upon Government and Parliament
their views in regard to their position. He was a member of that delegation, and he
remembered that the Government gave them to understand that they would be able to
deal with the Territories in a somewhat different manner than they had been dealing
with the provinces, and in a somewhat different manner than what the Territories
were then being dealt with. They asked for something to be given in the shape of
RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT
but not in it entirety. The Dominion Government brought in legislation, giving certain
powers to the House, and extended powers to the Assembly when established, but it
was found that the machinery they proposed to give did not work well. He thought
a great deal was due to the members who had composed the executive. He did not speak
for himself, because the difficulties had been gone through with before he became
a member; but a great deal was due to then for the manner in which they had been
able to work out, under the institu tion, or the law as established by the Dominion,
as satisfactory a solution of those difficulties as they had done. Prior to 1887 it
was necessary for the people in the Territories to petition Parliament through the
House. It was the custome of the old Council to memoralize the Dominion Government
on all subjects,— in fact it was the only way the people of the Territories could
speak to the Dominion Parliament. But in 1887, in accordance with a memorial, the
Dominion Government saw fit to give the Territories
REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
and the Senate. The Territories then sent to Parliament four members to
represent their views, and it was through these members they expected
their petitions should be placed before Parliament, and through them they
had their wants explained and pressed before the Parliament of Canada. But
this particular subject it had become a necessity for the Assembly to deal
with it by memorial because it was one which appertained to that House
itself. It was a question upon which the House was seized of all facts, and
in a better position that Dominion members to memorialize the Dominion
Parliament. In 1889 they memorialized Parliament setting forth their
position, and what they considered to be their requirements. The most
important clause of that memorial was that they asked for full
responisble government in the Territories in addition to the other powers
possessed by the Assembly granted by the British North America Act, with the
exception of that most important power of raising money by borrowing upon the
public credit. In 1891 2 they again memorialized the Dominion
Government, and the House was of the same opinion as in 1889, respecting the
financial situation. He was pleased to find that the Executive Committee
at no time in 1893-4-5 deviated one lots from the views expressed by the
Assembly of 1889-92. Of course they had from time to time very forcibly
pointed out to the Government the great needs of the Territories under the
institution which had been provided : the increased services on account of
the increased population, and it had been in such a way as to merit the
confidences of the House. He would now endeavor to point out what in
his opinion should by the text of the next memorial should the House see fit
to grant the Committee, and should that Committee report to the House with
re- grad to the subjects mentioned in the motion. In
the first place they required
AN EXTENSION OF POWERS.
What extension did they require? The powers they mow had as an Assembly
very nearly approached the powers the provinces had except in
regard to the great power of borrowing money upon the public credit. They
required an extension that instead of an Executive Committee, an Executive
council should be given the House. Even supposing to day they were able to
exercise nearly all the power of a Council, still if even only for status it
would give the House they should have the powers of a Council. but it would
do more than that. It would place them in the position that the
Executive-Council would also have the power of calling the House together
when they might see fit. It would also have the power of advising as to the
dissolution of the House; the power to advise as to who should act
during elections in this country. They had fortunately had
Lieut.-Governors of late who had always acceded to their request, he
believed, in this regard. But the time might arrive when the Lieut. Governor in
the Territories might be arbitrary in these matters, and they might find it
work detrimentally to the House. Again; they would be given
the
POWER TO APPOINT THE MAGISTRACY
of this country. They were entitled to that as were the provinces, and he thought
they were in as good a position to regulating the appointment of coroners in this
country. Above all that, the Assembly would be placed in this position that in dealing
with the higher powers at Ottawa the House, through an executive council, would be
in a different position than it is today. then again they would have as absolute powers
as the provinces with regard to legislation. To day they might legislate upon any
subject, and then their legislation was subject to legislation at Ottawa already on
the Statute Book, or which may be placed on the Statute Book of the Dominions. As
a case in point, he referred to the Infectious Disease (Animals) Ordinance. For many
years they had what was known as "glanders" among horse herds of this country. It
was a serious matter, and the House legislated upon it. They found no legis
lation had been passed by the Dominion Government with regard to it, and he believed
he might say without any chance of contradiction that the Assembly dealt with it for
a year or two longer he believed that would have been stamped out of this country.
But a year ago legislation was passed at Ottawa taking away the jurisdiction of the
Assembly, and they were compelled to stop their steps in that direction. In that one
case it was shown that the Assembly should have power to deal with those questions,
and not subject anything except veto. He also thought they should have further power
to legislate in regard to civil rights and property. At present they had
A CLASHING JURISDICTION
The land registration law was entirely under the control of the Dominion by one of
its Acts. And in many cases they were confronted with this question of jurisdiction.
The time had come when they should have complete control in regard to that subject.
They found in the estimates $18,000 for the maintenance of offices in the Territories,
but they didn't find a credit in regard to the revenue from that particular source.
The time had come when they should deal- and they could do it- with their financial
laws, because at the present time the Income from the registration service was about
sufficient to cover the expenditures, Again; he considered they should have legislation
from Ottawa along the same lines as the province of Manitoba respecting the roads
and road allowances. To-day the Assembly had to go through a torturous route to obtain
any action in regard to the closing of old roads or opening up of new roads. That
question became a very burning one in Manitoba and was dealt with by the Dominion
Parliament a few years ago by giving the provinces certain powers of legislation.
The Assembly should ask that similar powers be extended to the Territories; they had
a right to control those matters. His reaction for making the motion in the way he
did was that the House might discuss the question prior to going into the committee
. He thought they should have a thorough discussion so that when the committee sat,
if it was appointed, it would be seized of the views of the members of the House and
be more able to intelligently draft a memorial in accordance with the wishes of the
majority of the House.
THEY MUST BE A UNIT
in regard to this question if they expected to get anything. It would never do
to have differences of opinion in regard to what position or status they
should be placed in. Were they to have serious differences of opinion with
regard to that, they might expect, when the Parliment of Canada came to deal
with them, that it would be said "The people there are so divided that we
think we had better leave this over for a year or two until they have come to
some conclusion as to what it is they exactly want." The Assembly
should therefore thresh the question well out so that the memorial may
express the opinion of the House as a whole. He would now deal with
THEIR PRESENT CONDITION FINANCIALLY.
He would not exactly take the line taken by past memorials for the purpose of pressing
their claim. It was very easy for them to make out as they did in 1889 and in 1891-2,
a very strong case showing that they ought to be treated exactly the same as other
provinces in regard to their constitution. They must take a little different ground
in dealing with their financial circumstances. If, for instance, they did not ask
for power to take over the administration of justice pure and simple, in the Territories,
then they must admit they were not exactly in the same position as the provinces.
If they did not ask for power to borrow money upon the public credit, and to subsidise
railways, they were again in a different position to the people of the provinces.
He proposed to make the argument along the lines of their
NEEDS AT THE PRESENT TIME,
and the services which would accrue from year to year, and what would be
required to carry out those services. As had been well put by the leaders of
the House, the present constitution was not of their creating; it was a
creation of the Dominion Parliament. They had placed the Assembly
to its present position. The Dominion Parliament had for years treated them
as a branch of the Department of the Interior, and it was the
right and duty of the Dominion Government to provide the money to run the
machinery which they (the Dominion Government ) has set in motion. Money, it
had been said, was like the oil to machinery, and if they had created the
machinery they must provide the oil (hear, hear). In 1891 the population of
the Territories was 66, 799. That was according to the Dominion census. At
the same time they found that they amount granted for the services which were
then being rendered was $211, 200. that sum would be far more than sufficient
if the amount they were getting to-day was anything like sufficient for the
Territories. But at that time it was not more than sufficient; it was a fair
grant to the Territories. They had, however, increased in their
population, and necessarily the services had increased, from year to year the
Executive had to submit estimates to the House, and they were painfully aware
of the fact that
THEY HAD NOT SUFFICIENT MONEY
to meet the increasing services. It must be a source of pleasure to know that although
the Territories were no making great strides in population, still some substantial
increase in being made. In 1894 the population was 86,000 in round numbers. If the
population had increased from 66, 799 and in 1891 to 86, 000 in 1894 it was fair for
them to assume that the population had increased in that ratio they would have to-day
113, 000 people in the Territories. With that number of people the services had increased
necessarily in the same ratio as between 66, 000 people and 113, 000 people. They
found that instead of $211, 000 as in 1891, they had $242, 000 to provide for these
services. In other words,as was well and ably put in the House of Commons by a former
member of the Assembly the other day, they had increased in their grants 15 per cent.
while their population had increased 70 per cent. That surely must be considered
by the Parliament of Canada in dealing with the Territories; they saw that they has
increased from 66, 799 in 1891 to an estimated population at the present day of 113,
000. he would now turn for a moment or two to the statement's which had been made
in the House with regard to
WHAT SHOULD BE THEIR SUBSIDY
and the reasons why it should be so. He was endeavoring from these statements to
prove that they were entitled to a larger grant and to being put in the same position
as the other provinces. They based their calculations in former years nearly altogether
one estimated population; to-day
they were more able to come exactly to their position. They had taken the increase
between 1891 and 1894. With a population of 113, 000 to-day, if they were dealing
with the Dominion Government now as the provinces in asking for a subsidy, they might
ask that the estimated population be based upon a term of five years. Were that done,
they would find, taking the same ratio of increase as before stated they would be
entitled to an estimated population of 141, 000. The first item upon which the subsidy
was granted to the different provinces was a per capita grant on the estimated population.
Under that head the Territories would, at 80 cents per head, to-day be entitled to
$112, 800, on the per capita subsidy. Were the Territories dealing with the Dominion
Government upon the basis he had stated they would be entitled to a debt allowance,
or a capitol amount, - which was made up by an allowance made per head to the different
provinces of a certain debt which was assumed by the Dominion of Canada at Confederation.
Under that the Territories would be entitled to $27.22 upon actual population. That
was the original computation at confederation. Further debts were assumed from the
older provinces, which made it equal to $32.43 per head. Manitoba was dealt with on
that figure at the last settlement made by them. To deal with the Territories at this
time, and with an allowance of 5 per cent, they would be entitled to a grant of $183,
229. There was one other estimate in the subsidy of the provinces which the Territories,
he supposed, would be entitled to. That was an allowance for the cost of government.
The allowance for the different provinces ranged from $30, 000 to $80, 000. In Manitoba,
he believed, it was $50, 000. If in the province of Manitoba, with its smaller area
to govern, they were entitled to $50, 000 for cost of government, it was fair to say
that the Territories, - having an area many times larger than Manitoba, having difficulties
to overcome many times greater than Manitoba,- it was fair to say that the Territories
should at least be entitled to $50, 000 under that head. They were therefore
ENTITLED TO THE SUM OF $346, 029.
under those three heads alone. One other source of revenue they could expect to increase
their income from was the land. But all that could be done at the present time would
be able to make demand on account of the want of lands. They could not at this time
go into any actual computation and say what they would be willing to accept in that
regard. The province of Manitoba, with only a small population in its early days,
felt that when the Dominion Government made certain propositions to them with regard
to the subsidy, and saw they would allow Manitoba $45,000 in lieu of the lands, they
thought they were getting quite a snap, and took it quickly. And then at their leisure
they regretted it, for in a short time Manitoba found that any such settlement as
that would be such as to put to province in a position as not to be able possibly
to carry on the business of government. They therefore had to go to the Dominion Government
and ask for better terms in connection with that particular item. He was very much
mistaken if Manitoba to-day was not in a very bad position on account of the settlement
they made in regard to the lands. The Territories must not put themselves in that
position by saying what they would be willing to accept for many years in regard to
the great heritage they had become possessed of. There was that
REVENUE COMING FROM THE LAND
which had been bartered away from the community. The people, and they alone, should
be entitled to a revenue from that. That had been recognized by the Dominion Government
in dealing with different provinces. In view of the fact that the land had passed
from them, the govern, ment made Prince Edward Island an allowance of $40, 000 a year.
It was possible the Territories could say they should receive a certain a amount in
view of the fact that any revenue which accrued from the land did not come to us
but went to the Dominion. It would be argued possibly by the Government of Canada,
and by the people of Eastern Canada, that there were no revenues from the lands in
this country. But there was a very ready answer to that. He could not see how it would
be possible to gave a revenue from the lands of this country when the lands had been
given away for public works in this country. There had been given away millions of
acres of land here for subsides to railways. The people of eastern Canada said, "we
have built for you a large public work in the building of the C.P.R." True, but that
work was undertaken for Canada, and it was supposed it would be of course a greater
benefit to Eastern Canada than to Western Canada, because the population was in Eastern
Canada. Not only were the Territories placed in the position of having so much to
pay per head on the indebtedness incurred in the building of this road,- he meant
in the subsidy given to the C.P.R.,-but they were also in the position that after
having paid their share equally with the other people in cash, they had had their
lands taken away from them. They must be taken into consideration, and he had no doubt
would be, by the Dominion Government. Had the Territories been plac ed in the same
position as the other provinces; had the Territories been, for the building of this
railroad, simply taxed so much per head; had an extra csh subsidy of $25, 000, 000
been given to the C.P.R. instead of the acres of land subsidy, which was valued at
$1 per acre, it would be found that Canada as a whole would to-day be paying an increased
yearly interest of $750, 000. Today the Territories had to pay their portion of that
$750, 000 of interest upon the $250, 000, 000 of cash, which was given to the C.P.R.,
and at the time they were placed in the position of having had taken from them their
only sources of revenue,- the lands. In all the provinces the railroads had been subsidis
ed by cash subsides. In the Territories not only had they subsidised the C.P.R., but
even railways built in Manitoba had been bonussed by lands taken out of the Territories.
To his mind
SUCH PROCEEDING WAS OUTRAGEOUS
unless the Dominion of Canada intended to give the Territories a cash subsidy in lieu
of the land taken from them. To show that the Parliament of Canada should at once
give them an increased subsidy, he would point out that in 1891-2 there were in operation
in the Territories 245 schools; at the end of 1895 there were from 395 to 400. They
had increased enormously in that service. Other services also had increased. The increased
of population in this country there had been an increase of settlements, they had,
unfortunately in some instances, branched out until there were
SETTLEMENTS AT THE VERY REMOTEST OF PARTS
and facilities must be provided for marketing which people produced. With
increased settlements and incrsed services it was found impossible to keep up
the requirements of the country. They
were so hampered on account of the fact
that their revenues wereso circumscribed that they had had all these six
or seven years to keep within the old
services,—the old limits. It had been
IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP
in any way the new industries, or to do
anything in that direction in the interests
of the people. He had often heard it
said on the floor of this House that some
new departure shoudl be made. If they
had to deal with the estimates, hon. members would wish some time there were no
new departures to make, but that instead,
some of the old services could be cut off.
It had been a question of being able from
time to time to make the amount of money
meet the old much required services
under the institutions they had. So long
as the subsidy remained as at present,or
anything nearly like it, he could assure
hon. members,—and he did not care who
might have the managementof the finances,—the House never would be in a
position to make any very great, new or
startling changes. As an old member of
this Assembly,—one ofthe oldest he
thought; he had been there continuously
from 1883,—he might say that the financial question had always been one which
had taken up considerable of their attention. As far back as 1884, a member who
had let this House lately, and himself,
saw fit to pass certain resolutions in regard to the financial sitution;—no, he
made a mistake, he meant tey had introduced those resolutions, and as often
as they were introduced they were rejected. But ever since 1884 they had
given attention to this question, and he
expected they would have to give considerble attention to it for many years to
come. And every member of the House,
no matter what his opinions may have
been inregard to those who from time to
time may hve held teh reins of government at Ottwa, had on every occasion
striven in the interests of that House, and
he hoped that would continue. He
hoped every member of that Assembly
would continue to be a member of the
Assembly—first, and last, and always;
and would look to the interests of the
House rather than to the interests of any
particular set of men who may be ruling
the roost below. They went to the
House to rule in the interests of the
country locally. He was sure they would
do so. For his part his efforts would
never relax in that regard. He would be
as zealous in the causeas he had ever
been, and he believed every member
would be more zealous because from year
to year they found their
WANTS AND DIFFICULTIES INCREASING.
What was a difficult solution for them in
1891 was far more difficult in 1896-7;
wht was a grievance in 1891 was a grievance of greater extent in 1896-7. The
time had come when the Dominion Parliament must deal with the Territories in
a more liberal spirit the time had come
when they must get out of leading strings;
the time had comewhen they must assert
themselves; and the time had come when
the Dominion Parliament, he believed, if
proper representations were made of it,—
if that Parliament knew its duty and
would see its way, would give the Territories
the reasonable and just demands they
claim (applause). The hon. member concluded bymoving the following resolution; "That
a Select Committee consisting of Messrs. Insinger, Brett, Magrath,
Tims, Knowling, Lineham, Clinkskill,
Bulyea, Brown, Meyers, Neff, Haultain
and the mover be appointed for the purpose of drafting a memorial to his Excellency
the Governor General in Council
setting forth the financial and constitutional position of the Assembly, the
amendments which should be made to the
North-West Territories Act to secure fuller
powers, and the basis upon which the
subsidy should be determined."
Mr. Haultain seconded.
The motion was unanimously approved
without discussion.
On motion of Mr. Mgrath the following was agreed to: "That an Order of
this House do issue for a return showing
all papers and documents in connection
the case of Robert Farrar, who was fined
at Lethbridge in 1895, for a breach of the
Prairie Fire Ordinance."
In committee of the whole progress was
made with the Sale of Goods bill.
