LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
THURSDAY, February, 1865.
HON. MR. DORION, in resuming the
adjourned debate on Confederation, said—
I should have desired to make my remarks
to the House in French, but considering the
large number of honorable members who are
not familiar with that language, I think it
my duty to speak at the present time in
English. In rising on this occasion to address the House on the important question
submitted to us, I must say I do so with an
unusual degree of embarrassment, not only
on account of the importance of the subject of our deliberations, but also because
I
have to differ from many of those with whom
I have been in the habit of acting ever since
I first entered into political life. Yet, Mr.
SPEAKER, when I consider the questions
raised by the resolutions submitted by the
Government, I find that whether they be
purely political ones, such as the proposal to
restrict the influence and control of the people over the Legislature of the country
by
substituting a Chamber nominated by the
Crown for an Elective Legislative Council, or
whether they are purely commercial in their
character, such as that regarding the Intercolonial Railway, or the larger question
of
Confederation itself, I still hold the same
views that I held, in common with others
who have now changed their opinions, when
the subjects were first mooted. (Hear, hear.)
And as I have not heard, since the first
opening of this debate, any reason for substituting a nominated for an elective Upper
Chamber that was not fully argued out in
1856, when, by an overwhelming majority
of this House, it was decided that the elective principle should prevail—as I have
not heard any reason why we should pledge
our credit and resources to the construction
of the Intercolonial Railway, even previous
to any estimate of its cost being made, that
was not urged in 1862 when the question was
before the country—nor any reason for intercolonial union that was not raised in 1858,
when the present Hon. Finance Minister
pressed the question on the attention of the
Imperial authorities—I do not see on what
ground these several subjects which were
then so unpopular, and those views which
were then most universally repudiated,
should now be more favorably considered by
the people of this country—I fail to perceive
why those once unpalatable measures, now
246
coupled with additions to the burdens of the
people, should have grown into the public
favor. I cannot understand why I or any
members of this House should change our
views merely because certain other members
have, when we do not conscientiously think
such change would be for the benefit of the
country. I say, sir, that I am quite entitled
to maintain the same views now that I have
always entertained. (Hear.) This scheme,
sir, is submitted to us on two grounds ; first,
the necessity for meeting the constitutional
difficulties which have arisen between Upper
and Lower Canada, owing to the growing
demands on the part of Upper Canada for
representation by population ; and, secondly,
the necessity for providing more efficient
means for the defence of the country than
now exist. These are the only two grounds
we have heard stated for the propositions
now submitted to us ; and, sir, I shall apply
myself to explain my views on these two
subjects, and also upon the scheme generally.
When on the first question, I trust I shall
be permitted to go a little into the history
of the agitation of representation by population, for I owe it to myself, to my
constituents and the country. My name
has been used in various ways. It has sometimes been said that I was entirely favorable
to representation by population—at other
times that I was entirely favorable to the
Confederation of the provinces, and I will
now endeavor, once more, to state as clearly
as possible what my real views have been and
still are. ( Hear.) The first time representation by population was mooted in this
House, on behalf of Upper Canada, was, I
believe, in the Session of 1852, when the
Conservative party took it up, and the Hon.
Sir ALLAN MACNAB moved resolutions in favor of the principle. We then found the conservatives
arrayed in support of this constitutional change. It had been mooted before on
behalf of Lower Canada, but the Upper
Canadians had all opposed it. I think
two votes were taken in 1852, and on one of
these occasions the Hon. Attorney General
West (Hon. J. A. MACDONALD) voted for
it ; it came up incidentally. In 1854 the
MACNAB-MORIN coalition took place, and we
heard no more of representation by population from that quarter—that is, as mooted
by the Conservative party, who from that
moment uniformly opposed it on every occasion. It was, however, taken up by the present
Hon. President of the Council, the member
for South Oxford, and with the energy and
vigor he brings to bear on every question he
takes in hand, he caused such an agitation
in its behalf as almost threatened a revolution. As the agitation in the country increased,
so did the vote for it in this House
increase, and on several occasions I expressed
my views upon the subject. I never shirked
the question—I never hesitated to say that
something ought to be done to meet the just
claims of Upper Canada, and that representation based on population was in the abstract
a just and correct principle. I held, at the
same time, there were reasons why Lower
Canada could not grant it ; I entreated Lower
Canadian representatives to show themselves
disposed to meet the views of Upper Canada
by making, at any rate, a counter proposition ; and in 1856, when Parliament was
sitting in Toronto, I, for the first time, suggested that one means of getting over
the
difficulty would be to substitute for the present Legislative union a Confederation
of
the two Canadas, by means of which all local
questions could be consigned to the deliberations of local legislatures, with a Central
government having control of commercial
and other questions of common or general
interest. I stated that, considering the
different religious faith, the different language, the different laws that prevailed
in
the two sections of the country, this was the
best way to meet the difficulty ; to leave to a
general government questions of trade, currency, banking, public works of a general
character, &c., and to commit to the decision
of local legislatures all matters of a local
bearing. At the same time I stated that, if
these views should not prevail, I would certainly go for representation by population,
and such checks and guarantees as would
secure the interests of each section of the
country, and preserve to Lower Canada its
cherished institutions. (Hear, hear.) This
speech, sir, has been twisted in all sorts of
ways. I have heard it quoted to prove that
I was in favor of representation by population, pure and simple ; that I was in favor
of a Confederation of the provinces and for
several other purposes, just as it suited
the occasion or the purpose of those who
quoted it. (Hear and laughter.) The first
time the matter was put to a practical test
was in 1858. On the resignation of the
MACDONALD-CARTIER Administration, the
BROWN-DORION Government was formed,
and one of the agreements made between its
members was that the constitutional question
should be taken up and settled, either by a
247
Confederation of the two provinces or by
representation according to population, with
such checks and guarantees as would secure
the religious faith, the laws, the language,
and the peculiar institutions of each section
of the country from encroachments on the
part of the other. The subject came up
again in the latter part of 1850, when the
Toronto Convention took place. I should,
however, first say that, when the BROWN-
DORION Administration was formed, the
Hon. the President of the Council urged
very strongly that representation by population should be taken up as the method by
which to settle the constitutional question ;
while, on the contrary, I saw the difficulty
of so taking it up, even with such checks
and guarantees as were spoken of, and made
the counter-proposition that a Confederation
of the two provinces should be formed. Of
course as our Administration was so short-
lived, the subject was not discussed in all its
bearings ; but if we could have come to an
agreement on one or the other mode, that
one would have been submitted as the solution for the evils complained of—it being
however distinctly understood that I would
not attempt to carry any such measure
through without obtaining for it a majority
from Lower Canada. I would never have
tried to make any change in the Constitution
without ascertaining that the people in my
own section of the province were in favor of
such a change. ( Hear.) To return to the
Toronto Convention. I was invited to attend
it, but though I was unable to do so, certain
communications took place, and a meeting
of the liberal members of the House from
Lower Canada was held, and a document
issued, signed by the present Minister of
Agriculture (Hon. Mr. MCGEE), Hon. Mr.
DESSAULLES, Hon. Mr. DRUMMOND, and
myself. The document was given to the
public for the purpose of setting forth the
views which we held as to the settlement of
the difficulty. Pretended extracts have
been given from that document, as from my
speech, to attempt to prove all sorts of things
as being my views, but I can show most
clearly that the proposition made in it was
just that which had been made in 1858,
viz, the Confederation of the two provinces,
with some joint authority for both. Both
at that time, and at the time of the formation of the BROWN-DORION Administration,
various suggestions were made as to the
carrying out of the plan of confederating the
two Canadas. Some thought that two
entirely distinct legislatures should be formed ; one local for Lower Canada, another
local for Upper Canada, with a general
legislature acting for both. Others suggested the idea that the same legislature might
fulfil all puposes ; that the same body might
meet and deliberate on questions of common
interest, and that the members for each
section might then separate and discuss all
matters of a sectional character. Others,
again, said the same result might be obtained
by having but one legislature, and insisting
that no laws affecting either section of the
province should be carried, unless with the
support of a majority from the section
affected by them. These three plans were
suggested—the first to have two entirely
distinct legislative bodies, one for general
purposes, others for local ones ; the second,
to have one legislature, of which the parts
should have the right to act separately for
local objects, after general business had been
disposed of ; the third, to have but one body,
but to resolve that no legislative act of a
local nature should pass without the consent
of a majority of the representatives from
that locality. (Hear, hear.) The document
to which I have just referred, issued in
October, 1859, contained this language on
the subject :—
Your Committee are impressed with the conviction that whether we consider the present
needs or the probable future condition of the
country, the true, the statesman-like solution is
to be sought in the substitution of a purely
federative for the present legislative union ;
the former, it is believed, would enable us to
escape all the evils, and to retain all the advantages, appertaining to the existing
union.
 *    *    *    *    *
The proposition to federalize the Canadian
union is not new. On the contrary, it has been
frequently mooted in Parliament and the press
during the last few years. It was no doubt suggested by the example of the neighbouring
States
where the admirable adaptation of the federal
system to the government of an extensive territory, inhabited by people of divers
origins,
creeds, laws and customs, has been amply demonstrated ; but shape and consistency
were
first imparted to it in 1856, when it was formally
submitted to Parliament by the Lower Canada
Opposition, as offering, in their judgment, the
true corrective of the abuses generated under the
present system.
The document further went on to say :—
The powers delegated to the General or Federal Government ought to be those only which
248
are essential for the ends of the Confederation and
consequently we ought to reserve for the subdivisions as ample powers as possible.
Customs,
finance, laws regulating the currency, patent
rights, Crown lands and those public works
which are of common interest for all parts of the
province, ough to be the principal, if not the
only subject submitted to the control of the
Federal Government, while all that belongs to
matters of a purely local character, such as
education, the administration of justice, the
militia, the laws relating to property, police,
&c., ought to be referred to the local governments, whose powers ought generally to
extend
to all subjects which would not be given to the
General Government. The system thus proposed
would in no way diminish the importance of the
colony nor impair its credit—
HON. MR. DORION—I am translating
from the document published by the Lower
Canada liberals in 1859. It continues :—
The proposed system would in no way diminish
the importance of the colony, or impair the
credit, while it presents the advantage of being
susceptible, without any disturbance of the federal economy, of such territorial extention
as circumstances may hereafter render desirable.
Well, Sir, I have not a word of all this
to take back. I still hold to the same
views, the same opinions. I still think that
a Federal union of Canada might hereafter
extend so as to embrace other territories
either west or east ; that such a system is
well adapted to admit of territorial expansion without any disturbance of the federal
economy, but I cannot understand how this
plain sentence should be considered by the
Hon. President of the Council, or by other
hon. members who have spoken in the
other House, as any indication that I have
ever been in favor of Confederation with
the other British Provinces. There is
nothing I have ever said or written that can
be construed to mean that I was ever in
favor of such a proposition. On the contrary, whenever the question came up I set
my face against it. I asserted that such a
confederation could only bring trouble and
embarrassment, that there was no social, no
commercial connection between the provinces proposed to be united—nothing to
justify their union at the present juncture.
Of course I do not say that I shall be
opposed to their Confederation for all time
to come. Population may extend over the
wilderness that now lies between the Maritime Provinces and ourselves, and commercial intercourse may increase sufficiently
to render Confederation desirable. My
speeches have been paraded of late in all
the ministerial papers—misconstrued, mistranslated, falsified in every way—for the
purpose of making the public believe that
in former times I held different views from
those I now do. A French paper has said
that I called with all my heart for the Confederation of the provinces—(que j'appelais
de tous mes vœux la confederation des provinces) But I say here, as I said in l856,
and as I said in 1861 also, that I am opposed to
this Confederation now. In the Mirror of Parliament which contains a report, though a
very bad one, of my speech in 1861, I find
that I said on that occasion :—
The time may come when it will be necessary
to have a Confederation of all the provinces ;
* * * but the present time is not for such a
scheme.
This is the speech which has been held
to signify that I was anxious for Confederation, that I should like nothing better.
Why ? I distinctly said that though the
time might come when it would become
necessary, it was not desirable under existing
circumstances. (Hear, hear.) In 1862 I
was not in Parliament ; the CARTIER-MACDONALD Administration was dismissed, and
my hon. friend, the member for Cornwall
(Hon. John S. MACDONALD), was called
upon to form a new one. He applied to Mr.
SICOTTE to form the Lower Canada section
while he himself undertook the formation of
the Upper Canada portion. The question of
representation by population then necessarily
came up for settlement—this time at the
hands of the Liberal party who had voted for
it year after year—and when I came down
to Quebec, summoned by telegraph, I found
the arrangements made, the policy of the
new government was settled, representation
by population was excluded. (Hear, hear.)
The Liberal party from Upper Canada, sir,
to my surprise, had decided that it was not
to be taken up—that they were going into
office just as the Conservative party had done
before on a similar occasion in 1854 ; they
decided that they would sustain an Adminis
tration which made it a closed question, and
whose members all pledged themselves to
vote against it. (Hear, hear.)
HON. MR. DORION—If not, I was misinformed. I certainly understood that the
Administration was formed on the under
249standing that every member of it should
vote against the question of representation
by population whenever it came up, and that
the Upper Canada party would support the
Administration so formed. At any rate the
Upper Canada Liberal party supported, for
eleven months, a government pledged to exclude representation by population from the
category of open questions, and agreed to lay
that question aside.
HON. MR. DORION—I hear an honorable
gentleman say it was not so, that he did not
agree to lay aside representation by population then, but if he did not then has he
not
done so since ? He declared at a public
meeting the other day that representation
by population was no cure for the evils afflicting Upper Canada. The members from
Upper Canada who had joined the MACDONALD-SICOTTE Government had certainly
abandoned representation by population, by
entering into an Administration which bound
every one of them to vote against it. The
Hon. Provincial Secretary had stated publicly in Ottawa, in January, 1864, that it
had
been abandoned by the Liberal party at the
Toronto Convention in 1859 ; and although
he had at the time been soundly abused for
this by the
Globe and by those of his party
who look to the
Globe as their political gospel, he had now the satisfaction of seeing
the hon. member for Lambton, and some
others who formerly held very strong views
on this question, acknowledge, as they had
done at a public meeting held at Toronto
about three weeks ago, that they also considered representation by population as applied
to Canada no remedy for the Upper
Province, and that it was not a measure the
liberals ought to insist upon, and that it had
been abandoned. (Hear, hear and laughter.)
Yes, the question was in effect abandoned
when in November, 1859, six hundred
delegates from all parts of Upper Canada
attended the Reform Convention at Toronto,
and agreed to advocate a Confederation of
the two Canadas, by giving to each province
a local legislature, with some joint authority,
to carry on the general business common to
both. The hon. member on my left was
present on the occasion—
HON. MR. DORION—And the hon. member has told me that he never saw a more
respectable, a more educated, or more intelligent assemblage brought together in such
numbers to discuss public questions. But
that scheme did not attract much attention
out of the Convention. It took no hold on
the popular mind. Shortly before that, in
1858, the present Hon. Finance Minister,
who then sat on the cross-benches, made a
speech of two or three hours' duration, in
which, with all that force and ability for
which he is distinguished, he expounded and
advocated the Confederation of the whole of
the British North American Provinces. He
was then assisted in its advocacy by the present Hon. Minister of Agriculture ; and,
subsequently, on becoming a member of the
CARTIER-MACDONALD Administration, he
went to England and drew the attention of
the Imperial authorities to the scheme of
Confederation of all those provinces. The
Hon. Finance Minister received an answer
not very encouraging ; and that which he
received from this country was still less encouraging. There was not even an answer
to his speech, able though it certainly was —
HON. MR. HOLTON—He never ventured to propose any resolution to Parliament.
HON. MR. DORION—Though the Administration was formed with the understanding of effecting
the Confederation of all the
provinces, and it was the main plank of their
platform, they never dared to submit the
question to Parliament at all. (Hear.)
Subsequently, in 1861, the hon. member
for South Oxford brought forward a motion
based on the resolution at the Toronto Convention. I spoke and voted for it. It was
in
perfect accord with a notice I had given in
1856, and which was read here by the Hon.
President of the Council a few nights ago,
and with my often-repeated declarations that
I was willing to adopt some measure calculated to remove existing difficulties, without
doing injustice to either section ; but while
I was willing to do justice to Upper Canada,
I always declared that I would not do so by
sacrificing the interests of Lower Canada,
or placing her in the position of having to
beg for justice at the hands of the sister province. (Hear, hear.) I always stated
that
the difference existing in the religious faith
of the people of the two sections, in their
language, in their laws, in their prejudices
even—for there are prejudices which were respectable and ought to be respected—would
prevent any member from Lower Canada,
representing a French constituency, from
voting for representation by population, pure
and simple, and thereby placing the people of
250
Lower Canada in the position of having to
trust for the protection of their rights to
the people of Upper Canada, who would
thereby have the majority in the Legislature. (Hear) There is at this moment a
movement on the part of the British Protestants in Lower Canada to have some
protection and guarantee for their educational establishments in this province put
into the scheme of Confederation, should it
be adopted ; and far from finding fault with
them, I respect them the more for their
energy in seeking protection for their
separate interests. I know that majorities
are naturally aggressive and how the possession of power engenders dispotism, and
I
can understand how a majority, animated
this moment by the best feelings, might in
six or nine months be willing to abuse its
power and trample on the rights of the
minority, while acting in good faith, and
on what it considered to be its right.
We know also the ill feelings that might
be engendered by such a course. I think
it but just that the Protestant minority
should be protected in its rights in
everything that was dear to it as a distinct nationality, and should not lie at the
discretion of the majority in this respect,
and for this reason I am ready to extend to
my Protestant fellow-citizens in Lower
Canada of British origin, the fullest justice
in all things, and I wish to see their interests
as a minority guaranteed and protected in
every scheme which may be adopted. With
those views on the question of representation, I pronounced in favor of a Confederation
of the two Provinces of Upper and
Lower Canada, as the best means of promoting the varied interests of the two sections.
But the Confederation I advocated
was a real confederation, giving the largest
powers to the local governments, and merely
a delegated authority to the General Government—in that respect differing in toto from
the one now proposed which gives all the
powers to the Central Government, and
reserves for the local governments the
smallest possible amount of freedom of
action. There is nothing besides in what I
have ever written or said that can be interpreted as favoring a Confederation of all
the provinces. This I always opposed.
There is no breach of confidence in my saying that in the conversations I had with
the
Hon. President of the Council, previous to
his accepting office, since he has referred to
them himself in a speech which he made
when reelected at South Oxford, I positively declined to support any proposition for
the Confederation of all the provinces. Very true, sir, I did not refuse to
vote for it in committee. I did not vote at
all—I was not present when the vote was
taken, but I did not conceal my opposition to
it. In that speech the Hon. President of
the Council also said :—
Before the negotiations were gone through
with, I warned the Hon. Messrs. HOLTON and DORION to take action, but they refused
me. (Hear,
hear.) I felt all the pain of a refusal, but they
left me no resource. When the question was
asked me by the Government, I said wanted six
members—four from Upper and two from Lower
Canada. When asked how many supporters I
could bring from Lower Canada, I replied that
since Hon. Mr. DORION did not act, I could bring
no supporters.
So, sir, I have the best evidence possible
to repudiate the accusation that I was in
favor of Confederation of all the provinces
in the fact that, before there was any question at all as to who should go into the
Government, I stated—and that in the hearing
of several honorable members now present—
that I would have nothing to do with it because I did not conceive it would be for
the
interest of the country to have such a Confederation, at all events at the present
time.
(Hear.) Now, sir, I think I have shown
that I neither favored representation by
population pure and simple, nor a Confederation of the provinces ; and when honorable
gentlemen state that the necessity of settling
the question of representation is the origin
of this Federation scheme, they labor under
a grave misapprehension. There is nothing
further from the fact. (Hear, hear.) The
representation question wasalmost altogether
abandoned—was played out ; there was no
agitation about it, and certainly less than
there had been for the last ten years. The
honorable member for South Oxford, after
adopting the views of the Toronto Convention, still persisted in advocating representation
by population, but so changed was the
feeling that he could hardly get a debate on
the motion he made last session for a committee to consider the constitutional difficulties.
There was then another cause for this
Confederation scheme of which representation by population was made the pretext.
It is not so well known, but far more powerful. In the year 1861, Mr. WATKIN was
sent from England by the Grand Trunk
251
Railway Company . He came with the distinct view of making a large claim on the
country for aid, but in the then temper of
the people, he soon found that he could not
expect to obtain that. Thinking that if he
only could put some new scheme afloat which
would give a decent pretext to a well disposed
Government, he would quietly get the assistance required, he immediately started for
the Lower Provinces, and came back after
inducing people there to resuscitate the question of the Intercolonial Railway. Parties
were readily found to advocate it, if Canada
would only pay the piper. (Hear, and a
laugh.) A meeting of delegates took place,
resolutions were adopted, and an application
was made to the Imperial Government for a
huge contribution to its costs, in the shape
of an indemnity for carrying the troops over
the road. Mr. WATKIN and Hon. Mr.
VANKOUGHNET, who was then a member of
the Government, went to England about
this scheme, but the Imperial authorities
were unwilling to grant the required assistance, and rejected their propositions.
Mr.
WATKIN, although baffled in his expectations,
did not give up his project. He returned
again to Canada, and by dint of perseverance,
induced my honorable friend on my right
(Hon. J. S. MACDONALD) and other honorable members of his Cabinet to enter into his
views. As to the advantages of the Intercolonial Railway, I have not the slightest
idea that my hon. friend had any suspicion
whatsoever of the motives which animated
these Grand Trunk officials, and that their
object was to have another haul at the public
purse for the Grand Trunk—(laughter)—
but this was the origin of the revival of the
scheme for constructing the Intercolonial
Railway.
Hon. J. S. MACDONALD—We found
the project then left to us as a legacy by the
CARTIER—MACDONALD Administration.
Hon. MR. DORION—So it was. The
MACDONALD-SICOTTE Government found the
matter so far advanced that an arrangement
had been made for a meeting of delegates of
the several provinces to consider again this
railway scheme, the other project having
failed. At this meeting of delegates, which
took place in September, 1862, a new scheme
for building the Intercolonial was adopted,
by which Canada was to pay five-twelfths
and the Lower Provinces seven-twelfths. So
unpopular was this arrangement that when
its terms were made known, if a vote of the
people had been taken upon it, not ten out
of every hundred, from Sandwich to Gaspé,
would have declared in its favor, although
Canada was only to pay five-twelfths of its
cost. (Hear, hear.) This project having failed, someother scheme had to be concocted
for
bringing aid and relief to the unfortunate
Grand Trunk—and the Confederation of all
the British North American Provinces
naturally suggested itself to the Grand
Trunk officials as the surest means of bringing with it the construction of the Intercolonial
Railway. (Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Such was the origin of this Confederation
scheme. The Grand Trunk people are at
the bottom of it ; and I find that at the
last meeting of the Grand Trunk Railway
Company, Mr. WATKIN did in advance
congratulate the shareholders and bondholders on the bright prospects opening
before them, by the enhanced value which
will be given to their shares and bonds, by
the adoption of the Confederation scheme
and the construction of the Intercolonial
as part of the scheme. (Hear, hear.) I repeat, sir, that representation by population
had very little to do with bringing about
this measure. The TACHÉ-MACDONALD
Government were defeated because the House
condemned them for taking without authority $100,000 out of the public chest for the
Grand Trunk Railway, at a time when there
had not been a party vote on representation by population for one or two sessions.
Those who had been the loudest in their
advocacy of it, had let it drop. I was tracked through Lower Canada as being willing
to sell Lower Canada, grant representation
by population, and destroy Lower Canadian
institutions. I thank God, sir, I never insulted Upper Canada, like some of those
who reviled me. I never compared the people
of Upper Canada to so many codfish. I
showed on the contrary that I was always
willing to meet the just claims of Upper
Canada. (Hear, hear.) Well, without any
demand whatever for the agitation of this
question, the moment the Government was
defeated and there was a necessity for resigning or going before the people, these
gentlemen opposite prepared to embrace their
greatest opponents and said to themselves,
" We will make everything smooth, we will
forget past difficulties, provided we can but
keep our seats."
252
HON. MR. DORION—I hear a voice, sir,
which is well known in this House, the voice
of the Attorney General West, saying "hear,
hear." But what was the course of that hon.
gentleman last year, when the hon. member
for South Oxford had a committee appointed
to whom was referred the despatch written
by his three colleagues, the Minister of Finance, the Attorney General East and the
Hon. Mr. ROSS, who is now no longer a minister. He voted against the appointment of
the committee, and, after it was named, as a
member of it, he voted. against the principle of Confederation. (Hear, hear.)
HON. MR. DORION—The last vote taken
in that committee was about the middle of
June, the very day of the crisis, and the
hon. gentleman voted against the principle
of Confederation of all the provinces, in
accordance with the opinions he again and
again expressed in this House, as being
opposed to all Confederation whatever.
(Hear.) When I state that these gentlemen
only found out that Confederation was a
panacea for all evils, a remedy for all ills,
when their seats as ministers were in danger,
I come to this conclusion quite legitimately,
from facts which are well known to this
House. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, it would
probably be of very little moment whether
I was formerly in favor of Confederation or
against it, or whether the Hon. Attorney
General West was in favor of Confederation
or opposed to it, if the scheme proposed to
us were an equitable one, or one calculated
to meet the wishes of the people of this
country ; but, as I said a minute ago, the
scheme was not called for by any considerable proportion of the population. It is
not
laid before the House as one which was
demanded by any number of the people ; it
is not brought down in response to any call
from the people ; it is a device of men who
are in difficulties, for the purpose of getting
out of them. (Hear, hear.) The members
of the TACHÉ-MACDONALD Government
could not appeal to the country after their
defeat upon the question, whether they were
justified in taking $100,000 out of the public chest, in addition to the millions
they
had previously taken, without the consent of
Parliament ; so, having either to give up
their seats or evade that particular issue,
they abandoned all their previous opinions,
and joined the hon. member for South Oxford
in carrying out this Confederation scheme.
(Hear.) I come now to another point, viz.,
is the scheme presented to us the same
one that was promised to us by the Administration when it was formed ? This, sir,
might be but of slight importance if the
manner in which this proposed Constitution
was framed had not a most unfortunate bearing on the scheme itself ; but it is a grave
matter, since the scheme is so objectionable,
especially as we are gravely told that it cannot be amended in the least, but that
it is
brought down as a compact made between
the Government of this country and delegates
from the governments of Nova Scotia, New
Brunswick, Newfoundland, and Prince Edward Island—as a treaty which cannot be
altered or amended in any particular.
(Hear.) The plain meaning of this is, sir,
that the Lower Provinces have made out a
Constitution for us and we are to adopt it.
This fact will appear the more clearly when
it is considered, as was pointed out much to
my surprise, by the hon. member for Hastings (Mr. T. C. WALLBRIDGE), that in the
Conference the vote was taken by provinces,
putting Upper and Lower Canada, with
nearly 2,500,000 people, on no higher level
than Prince Edward Island, with its 80,000
—on the same level with New Brunswick,
with its 250,000—on the same level as Nova
Scotia, with its 330,000.
HON. MR. DORION—It was admitted by
the Honorable the President of the Council
the other evening. .
HON. MR. DORION—It was the champion
of representation by population who made
the statement. He it was that went to Prince
Edward Island and asked it to frame a Constitution for this country. (Hear and laughter.)
In order to shew, Mr. SPEAKER, that I am not
mistaken in what I state, that this scheme
is not the one which it was announced in the
formation of this Administration was to be
brought down—in order to prove, indeed, that
it was then determined not to bring down such
a measure,—I will cite a declaration made
by members of the Government as to the
negotiations which took place at its formation.
I will read from the Quebec
Morning Chronicle
of June 23rd :—
The Hon. Atty. Gen. MACDONALD, in explaining the negotiations, read the following
memorandum :
253
Memorandum— Confidential.
The Government are prepared to state that immediately after the prorogation, they
will address
themselves, in the most earnest manner to the negotiation for a Confederation of all
the British
North American Provinces.
That failing a successful issue to such negotiations, they are prepared to pledge
themselves to
legislation during the next Session of Parliament
for the purpose of remedying the existing difficulties by introducing the Federal
principle for
Canada alone, coupled with such provisions as will
permit the Maritime Provinces and the North-
Western Territory to be hereafter incorporated
into the Canadian system.
That for the purpose of carrying on the negotiations and settling the details of the
promised
legislation, a Royal Commission shall be issued,
composed of three members of the Government
and three members of the Opposition, of whom
Mr. BROWN shall be one, and the Government
pledge themselves to give all the influence of the
Administration to secure to the said Commission
the means of advancing the great object in view.
This was the first memorandum communicated to the member for South Oxford, but
that hon. member did not accept of it. This
memorandum proposed the scheme which is
now brought to the House, and I repeat, that
scheme was not accepted by the honorable
member for South Oxford, but an understanding was come to, which is to be found
in the next memorandum, which was communicated to the House in these terms :—
The Government are prepared to pledge themselves to bring in a measure next session
for the
purpose of removing existing difficulties by introducing the Federal principle into
Canada,
coupled with such provisions as will permit the
Maritime Provinces and the North- West Territory to be incorporated into the same
system of
government.
And the Government will seek, by sending
representatives to the Lower Provinces and to
England, to secure the assent of those interests
which are beyond the control of our own legislation to such a measure as will enable
all British
North America to be united under a General
Legislature based upon the Federal system.
There is a vast difference, Mr. SPEAKER, between these two propositions. The first
was
that the Government would pledge themselves
to seek a Confederation of the British American Provinces, and if they failed in that
to
Federate the two Canadas, and this was rejected ; the second, which was accepted by
the
President of the Council, pledged the Government to bring in a measure for the Confederation
of the two Canadas, with provision for
the admission of the other provinces when
they thought proper to enter.
HON. ATTY. GEN. MACDONALD—When
they were ready.
HON. ATTY. GEN. CARTIER—Everything
is accomplished.
HON. MR. DORION—But, sir, I may be
asked, granting all this, granting that the
scheme brought down is not the scheme promised to us, what difference our bringing
in
the provinces at once can make ? This
I will endeavor to explain. When they went
into the Conference, honorable gentlemen
opposite submitted to have the votes taken
by provinces. Well, they have now brought
us in, as was natural under the circumstances,
the most conservative measure ever laid before
a Parliament. The members of the Upper
House are no longer to be elected, but nominated, and nominated by whom ? By a Tory
or Conservative Government for Canada, by
a Conservative Government in Nova Scotia,
by a Conservative Government in Prince Edward Island, by a Conservative Government
in Newfoundland, the only Liberal Government concerned in the nomination being that
which is controlled by the Liberal party in New
Brunswick, whose fate depends on the result
of the elections that are now going on in that
province. Such a scheme would never have
been adopted if submitted to the liberal people of Upper Canada. When the Government
went into that Conference they were
bound by the majority, especially since they
voted by provinces, and the 1,400,000 of Upper Canada with the 1,100,000 of Lower
Canada— together 2,500,000 people—were
over-ridden by 900,000 people of the Maritime Provinces. Were we not expressly told
that it was the Lower Provinces who would not
hear of our having an elective Legislative Council ? If, instead of going into Conference
with
the people of the Lower Provinces, our Government had done what they pledged themselves
to do, that is, to prepare a Constitution
themselves, they would never have dared to
bring in such a proposition as this which is
now imposed upon us by the Lower Colonies
—to have a Legislative Council, with a fixed
number of members, nominated by four Tory
governments. Why, taking the average time
each councillor will be in the Council to be
fifteen to twenty years, it will take a century
before its complexion can be changed. For
all time to come, so far as this generation and
the next are concerned, you will find the
Legislative Council controlled by the influence of the present Government. And is
it
254
to be believed that, as promised in the document we are considering , such a Government
as we have " will take care of the Opposition,
or consider their right to be represented in
the Council ?" (Hear, and laughter.) Sir, I
thank the delegates for their kind solicitude
for the Opposition, but I do not believe they
will do anything of the kind. Have we not
heard the Honorable Attorney General West,
a few nights ago, state, turning to his followers, " If I were to advise the nomination,
I
should advise the selection of the best men I
could find—and of course of my own party?"
(Hear.) So it will be, sir ; and, if this precious scheme is carried, we shall have
a Legislative Council divided in the following proportion :—For Upper Canada, we should
probably have liberals in the proportion of three
to nine ; for I suppose the honorable member
for South Oxford has made sacrifices enough
to deserve at least that consideration, and, as
his friends compose one-fourth of the Executive Council, I dare say we should get
one-
fourth of the Upper Canada Legislative
Councillors liberal too.
HON. MR. DORION—Just 25 per cent. of
liberals for Upper Canada. Then, in addition, we should get from Nova Scotia ten
conservatives, from Prince Edward Island
four more, and four from Newfoundland.
Thus we shall have eighteen conservatives
from the Lower Provinces, which, added to
thirty-six from Canada, would make fifty-four
conservatives against twenty-two liberals,
taking the ten New Brunswick councillors to
be liberals. Now, supposing three per
cent. as the average number of deaths per
annum—the average proportion of change—
it would take nearly thirty years to bring
about a change in the character of a majority
of the Council, even supposing all the additions made to it to be from the liberal
ranks.
But, sir, that will hardly be the case. In
some of the Lower Provinces there will be
Conservative governments now and then, and
there may occasionally be conservative governments in Canada. (Hear, and laughter.)
So
this generation will certainly pass away before
the views of the Liberal party will ever find
expression in the decisions of the Upper House.
MR. MACKENZIE (Lambton)—That
makes no difference, as between the two measures.
HON. MR. DORION — The honorable
member for Lambton says that makes no dif
ference. It makes just the difference that
we are to be bound by the scheme or by a
Constitution enabling the Council to stop all
measures of reform, such as would be
desired by the Liberal party ; if the honorable member for Lambton thinks that
makes no difference, I beg to differ from
him, and I believe the Liberal party generally
will. The Government say they had to introduce certain provisions, not to please themselves,
but to please the provinces below,
and they have pledged themselves to those
provinces that this House will carry out the
scheme without amendment. Does not the
honorable member see the difference now ?
If the two Canadas were alone interested, the
majority would have its own way—would look
into the Constitution closely—would scan its
every doubtful provision, and such a proposal
as this about the Legislative Council would
have no chance of being carried, for it is not
very long since the House, by an overwhelming majority, voted for the substitution
of an
elected for a nominated Upper Chamber. In
fact, the nominated Chamber had fallen so
low in public estimation—I do not say it was
from the fault of the men who were there,
but the fact is, nevertheless, as I state it—
that it commanded no influence. There was
even a difficulty in getting a quorum of it
together. So a change became absolutely
necessary, and up to the present moment the
new system has worked well ; the elected
members are equal in every respect to the
nominated ones, and it is just when we see
an interest beginning to be felt in the proceedings of the Upper House that its Constitution
is to be changed, to return back again to the one
so recently condemned. Back again, did I
say ? No, sir, a Constitution is to be substituted, much worse than the old one, and
such
as is nowhere else to be found. Why, even
the British House of Lords, conservative as
it is, is altogether beyond the influence of the
popular sentiment of the country. Their
number may be increased on the recommendation of the responsible advisers of the
Crown, if required to secure united action or
to prevent a conflict between the two Houses.
From the position its members occupy, it is a
sort of compromise between the popular element and the influence or control of the
Crown. But the new House for the Confederation is to be a perfectly independent body
—these gentlemen are to be named for life—
and there is to be no power to increase their
number. How long will the system work
without producing a collision between the
255
two branches of the Legislature ? Suppose the
Lower House turns out to be chiefly Liberal,
how long will it submit to the Upper House,
named by Conservative administrations which
have taken advantage of their temporary numerical strength to bring about such a change
as is now proposed ? Remember, sir, that, after all, the power, the influence of the
popular
branch of the Legislature is paramount. We
have seen constitutions like that of England
adopted in many countries, and where there existed a nobility, such as in France in
1830,
the second chamber was selected from this
nobility. In Belgium, where the Constitution is almost a
fac-simile of that of England, but where there are no aristocracy, they
adopted the elective principle for the Upper
House, and no where in the world is there a
fixed number for it, unless it is also elective.
It must be fresh in the memory of a great
many members of this House how long the
House of Lords resisted the popular demand
for reform, and great difficulties were threatened. At last in 1832 the agitation
had
become so great that the Government determined to nominate a sufficient number of
peers to secure the passage of the Reform
Bill. The members of the House had to
choose between allowing the measure to become law, or see their influence destroyed
by
the addition of an indefinite number of members. They preferred the first alternative,
and
thereby quieted an excitement, which if not
checked in time, might have created a revolution in England. The influence of the
Crown was then exerted in accordance with
the views of the people ; but here we are to
have no such power existing to check the action of our Upper Chamber, and no change
can be made in its composition except as
death might slowly remove its members. I
venture to prophesy, sir, that before a very
short time has elapsed a dead-lock may arise,
and such an excitement be created as has
never yet been seen in this country. (Hear,
hear.) Now, if this Constitution had been
framed by the members of our Government,
we could change some of its provisions—this
provision would most certainly be altered—
there is not a man in the Liberal ranks who
dare vote for such a proposition as this, that
could go before his constituents and say, " I
have taken away the influence and control of
the people over the Upper Chamber, and I
have created an entirely independent body, to
be chosen by the present governments of the
several provinces." But no, the Constitution
is in the nature of a compact, a treaty, and
cannot be changed. (Hear.) But, sir, the
composition of the Legislative Council becomes of more importance when we consider
that the governors of the local legislatures
are to be appointed by the General Government, as well as the Legislative Council
;
their appointment is to be for five years, and
they are not to be removed without cause. I
will venture upon another prediction and say
we shall find there will be no such thing as
responsible government attached to the local
legislatures.
HON. MR. DORION—There will be two,
three, or four ministers chosen by the lieutenant-governors and who will conduct the
administration of the country, as was formerly
done in the times of Sir FRANCIS BOND HEAD,
Sir JOHN COLBORN, or Sir JAMES CRAIG. You
will have governments, the chief executives
of which will be appointed and hold office at
the will of the Governor. If that is not to
be the case, why do not honorable gentlemen
lay their scheme before us? (Hear.) Is this
House, sir, going to vote a Constitution with
the Upper House as proposed, without knowing
what sort of local legislatures we are to have
to govern us ? Suppose, after we have adopted the main scheme, the Government come
down with a plan for settling the local legislatures upon which great differences
of opinion
will arise, may it not happen then that the
majority from Lower Canada will unite with a
minority from Upper Canada and impose upon
that section a local Constitution distasteful to
a large majority of the people of Upper Canada.
The whole scheme, sir, is absurd from beginning to end. It is but natural that gentlemen
with the views of honorable gentlemen opposite want to keep as much power as possible
in the hands of the Government—that is the
doctrine of the Conservative party everywhere
—that is the line which distinguishes the
tories from the whigs—the tories always
side with the Crown, and the liberals always
want to give more power and influence to the
people. The instincts of honorable gentlemen
opposite, whether you take the Hon. Attorney
General East or the Hon. Attorney General
West, lead them to this—they think the hands
of the Crown should be strengthened and the
influence of the people, if possible, diminished—and this Constitution is a specimen
of
their handiwork, with a Governor-General
appointed by the Crown ; with local governors also, appointed by the Crown ; with
legislative councils, in the General Legislature,
and in all the provinces, nominated by the
256
Crown; we shall have the most illiberal Constitution ever heard of in any country
where
constitutional government prevails. (Hear.)
The Speaker of the Legislative Council is
also to be appointed by the Crown, this is
another step backwards, and a little piece of
patronage for the Government. We have
heard in a speech lately delivered in Prince
Edward Island or New Brunswick, I forget
which, of the allurements offered to the delegates while here in the shape of prospective
appointments as judges of the Court of Appeal,
Speaker of the Legislative Council, and local
governors—(hear, hear)—as one of the reasons assigned for the great unanimity which
prevailed in the Conference. Â
HON. MR. HOLTON—They will divide
all these nice things amongst them. (Laughter.)
HON. MR. DORION—I do not accuse
honorable gentlemen of holding out these inducements, I only mention the fact from
a
speech I have read on the subject.
HON. MR. DORION—I now come to another point. It is said that this Confederation is necessary for
the purpose of providing
a better mode of defence for this country.
There may be people who think that by adding two and two together you make five. I
am not of that opinion. I cannot see how by
adding the 700,000 or 800,000 people, the
inhabitants of the Lower Provinces, to
the 2,500,000 inhabitants of Canada, you
can multiply them so as to make a much
larger force to defend the country than you
have at present. Of course the connection
with the British Empire is the link of communication by which the whole force of the
Empire can be brought together for defence.
(Hear, hear.) But the position of this country under the proposed scheme is very evident.
You add to the frontier four or five hundred
more miles than you now have, and an extent
of country immeasurably greater in proportion than the additional population you
have gained; and if there is an advantage at
all for the defence of the country, it will
be on the part of the Lower Provinces and
not for us. And as we find that we are
about to enter into a very large expenditure for this purpose of defence—this having
been formally announced in a speech delivered by the President of the Council at Toronto—and
as Canada is to contribute to
that expenditure to the extent of ten-twelfths
of the whole, the other provinces paying only
two-twelfths, it follows that Canada will pay
ten-twelfths also of the cost of defence, which,
to defend the largely extended country we
will have to defend, will be much larger than
if we remained alone. I find in the speech
delivered by the President of the Council on
that occasion, this statement :—
I cannot conclude without referring to some
other things which have received the grave attention of the Conference. And the first
point
which I desire to call attention is the fact that
the delegates have unanimously resolved that the
united provinces shall be placed at the earliest
moment in a thorough state of defence. The
attacks which have been made upon us have created the impression that these provinces
are in a
weak and feeble state; if, then, we would do
away with this false impression and place ourselves on a firm and secure footing in
the eyes of
the world, our course must be to put our country
in such a position of defence that we may fearlessly look our enemies in the face.
It is a
pleasure to me to state, and I am sure it must be
a pleasure to all present to be informed, that the
Conference at Quebec did not separate before
entering into a pledge to put the military and
naval defences of the united provinces in a most
complete and satisfactory condition.
HON. MR. DORION—It appears then that
our course is to put " the military and naval
defences" into "a most complete and satisfactory condition." Now I find that, according
to these resolutions, the General Government is to have control of " the military
and
naval defences," but, of course, the cost of
them is not stated. - This I contend, then,
that if the military and naval defences of all
the provinces are to be provided for by the
General Government, and if you have to increase the militia for this purpose, the
Lower
Provinces will pay only their proportion of
two-twelfths, and Canada, while obtaining no
greater defensive force than at present, will
have to pay five times as much as we are now
paying. (Hear, hear.) Why , sir, take the
line dividing New Brunswick from Maine and
you find it separates on the one side 250,000,
thinly scattered over a vast territory, from
750,000 on the other, compact and powerful.
These 250,000 Canada will have to defend,
and it will have to pledge its resources for the
purpose of providing means of defence along
that extended line. (Hear, hear.) And, if
rumor be true, the Intercolonial Railway, this
so-called great defensive work, is not to pass
along Major Robinson's line. The statement
has been made—I have seen it in newspapers
usually well informed—that a new route has
257
been found that will satisfy everybody or
nobody at all ; and while I am on this point I
must say that it is most singular that we are
called upon to vote these resolutions, and to
pledge ourselves to pay ten-twelfths of the
cost of that railway, without knowing whether
there will be ten miles or one hundred miles
of it in Lower Canada, or whether it will cost
$10,000,000 or $20.000,000.
HON. MR. DORION—In 1862, when the
question of the construction of this road was
before the country. what was the cry raised
by honorable gentlemen opposite ? Why, that
the MACDONALD-SICOTTE Government had
pledged itself to build a railway at whatever
cost it might come to ; and those who were
loudest in these denunciations, were the very
gentlemen who have now undertaken to build
the road without knowing or even enquiring
what the cost of it will be. (Hear, hear. )
This, if I remember right, was the purport of
a speech made by the Hon. Attorney General
West at Otterville. (Hear, hear. ) I was
satisfied, sir, at that time, to press my objections to the scheme and retire from
the
Government ; but my colleagues were denounced without stint for having undertaken
to build the railway and pay seven-twelfths of
its cost, and now the House is asked by the
very men who denounced them to pay ten-
twelfths of it, without even knowing whether
the work is practicable or not. (Hear, hear. )
We have heard for some time past that the
engineer, Mr. FLEMING, is prepared to make
his report. Why is it not forthcoming ?—
why has it been kept back? The representatives of the people in this House will show
utter disregard of their duty if they do
not insist upon having that report, and full
explanations respecting the undertaking, as
well as the scheme for the constitution of the
local governments, before they vote upon the
resolutions before the House. (Hear, hear.)
It is folly to suppose that this Intercolonial
Railway will in the least degree he conducive to the defence of the country. We
have expended a large sum of money—and
none voted it more cordially and heartily than
myself-for the purpose of opening a military
highway from Gaspé to -Rimouski ;
and that road, in case, of hostilities with our
neighbors, would be found of far greater service, for the transport of troops, cannon
and
all kinds of munitions of war, than any railway following the same or a more southern
route possibly can be. That road cannot be
effectually destroyed; but a railway lying in
some places not more than fifteen or twenty
miles from the frontier, will be of no use
whatever, because of the readiness with which
it may be attacked and seized. An enemy
could destroy miles of it before it would be
possible to resist him, and in time of difficulty
it would be a mere trap for the troops passing
along it, unless we had almost an army to keep
it open. Upon this question of defence,
we have heard so much during the past two
or three years that I think it is time now
we should have some plain explanations about
it. We heard the other day from the honorable member for West Montreal—and I am
always glad to quote him, he is usually so
correct—(laughter—that in less than a year
the American army, the army of the Northern States, was increased from 9,000 to 800,000
men ready for service, and that in less
than four years they were able to put to sea
a fleet which, in point of numbers—I do not
say in armament or value—was equal to the
entire naval force of England. Well, the
honorable gentleman might have gone further
and shown that within a period of four years
the Northern States have called into the field
2,300,000 men—as many armed men as we
have men, women and children in the two
Canadas—and that we hear every day of more
being raised and equipped. It is stated that,
in view of these facts, it is incumbent upon
us to place ourselves in a state of defence.
Sir, 1 say it here candidly and honestly, that
we are bound to do everything we can to protect the country—(hear, hear,)—but we are
not bound to ruin ourselves in anticipation of
a supposed invasion which we could not repel
even with the assistance of England. The
battles of Canada cannot be fought on the
frontier, but on the high seas and at the great
cities on the Atlantic coast; and it will be
nothing but folly for us to cripple ourselves by
spending fifteen or twenty millions a year to
raise an army of 50,000 men for the purpose
of resisting an invasion of the country. The
best thing that Canada can do is to keep
quiet, an to give no cause for war. (Hear,
hear.) Let the public opinion of this country
compel the press to cease the attacks it is
every day making upon the Government and
people of the United States ; and then if war
does come between England and the States—
even if from no fault of ours—we will cast
our lot with England and help her to fight the
battle; but in the meantimw it is no use what
258ever to raise or keep up anything like a standing army.
HON ATT. GEN. MACDONALD—Will
my honorable friend let me ask him how we can
assist England in a war on the high seas unless we have a naval force ?
HON. MR. DORION—The honorable member for Peterborough stated the other day, and
correctly I believe, that the place for our militia was behind the fortifications
of our fortified places, where they would count for something to be of some use. No
doubt of this.
Why, sir, it is absurd to ak of defending
this country with such a force as we could
maintain when we have the recent example
before our eyes of a country in Europe possessing as large a defensive force, literally
wiped off the map by an invading army of
some 75,000 or 80,000 men. The kingdom
of Denmark consists now of only two small
islands—less by far, in extent, than one of
our large counties; and this dismemberment
has been forced upon it, although it had a
standing army of 30,000 men, and the feeling of the whole pulation was in favor of
the war. (Hear, ear.) I do not use this
argument for the purpose of showing that
something ought not to be done respecting our
militia. I am willing that we should make
sacrifices, if necessary, for the purpose of organizing it thoroughly ; but I am decidedly
opposed to a standing army, and do not
believe we could raise an army now that
would be able to withstand the force that
could be sent against it. (Hear, hear.)
We have sent to the frontier 2,000 men,
whose services for a year will cost us a
million and a-half ; and at the same rate
of expenditure, 50,000 men would cost us
over thirty millions of money. Now, if the
whole defence of the country is to rest upon
us, I ask again what would such a force
amount to ? (Hear, hear.) Now, sir, when
I look into the provisions of this scheme, I
find another most objectionable one. It is that
which gives the General Government control
over all the acts of the local legislatures. What
dificulties may not arise under this system ?
Now, knowing that the General Government
will be party in its character, may it not for
party purposes reject laws passed the
by the local legislatures and demanded by a majority
of the people of that locality. This power
conferred upon the General Government
has been compared to the veto wer that
exists in. England in respect to our legislation;
but we know that the statesmen of England
are not actuated by the local feelings and
prejudices, and do not partake of the local
jealousies, that prevail in the colonies. The
local governments have therefore confidence
in them, and respect for their decisions; and
generally, when a law adopted by a colonial
legislature is sent to them, if it does not
clash with the licy of the Empire at large,
it is not disallowed, and more especially of
late has it been the policy of the Imperial
Government to do whatever the colonies desire in this respect, when their wishes are
constitutionally expressed. The axiom on
which they seem to act is that the less they
hear of the colonies the better. (Hear, hear.
But how different will be the result in this
case, when the General Government exercises
the veto power over the acts of local legislatures. Do you not see that it is quite
possible
for a majority in a local government to be
opposed to the General Government; and in
such a case the minority would call upon the
General Government to disallow the laws enacted by the majority? The men who shall
compose the General Government will be dependent for their su port upon their political
friends in the local egislatures, and it may so
happen that, in order to secure this support,
or in order to serve their own purposes or
that of their supporters, they will veto laws
which the ma'onty of a local legislature find
necessary and (Hear, hear.) We
know how high party feeling runs sometimes
upon local matters even of trivial importance,
and we may find parties so hotly opposed to
each other in the local legislatures, that the
whole power of the minority may be brought
to bear upon their friends who have a majority in the General Legislature, for the
purpose of preventing the passage of some law
objectionable to them but desired by the majority of their own section. What will
be
the result of such a state of things but bitterness of feeling, strong litical acrimony
and dangerous agitation? ( ear, hear.) Then
sir, I find that in addition to all the other
sums that are to be paid by the general to
the local governments, there are revisions
in favor of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, which must strike the House as being
of a rather extraordinary nature. In the
document which was sent by the Provincial
Secretary to the members of this House
marked "Private," there appears to have been
a mistake. It was therein stated that the
General Government would have no right to
impose an export duty on timber, logs,
masts, spars, deals and sawn lumber ; but that
the local governments would have the power
259
to impose export duties on these articles.
This provision, it seems, was too favorable to
Lower Canada ; for it would have allowed
Lower Canada to impose an export duty upon
Upper Canadian timber.
HON. MR. DORION—And by this means
raise a sufficient revenue, at the expense of
Upper Canada, to meet its local expenditure.
This mistake seems to have been corrected,
for, in this respect, the resolutions before the
House have been changed but hardly amended.
HON. MR. DORION— The clause of the
resolution to which I refer now reads, that
the General Parliament shall have power to
make laws " respecting the imposition or regulation of duties of customs on imports
and
exports—except on exports of timber, logs,
masts, spars, , deals and sawn lumber from
New Brunswick, and of coal and other minerals from Nova Scotia." That is, the General
Government may impose a tax for its
own benefit upon all timber and minerals exported from Upper or Lower Canada, but
not
New Brunswick or Nova Scotia. (Hear,
hear.) Then, among the powers granted to
local legislatures, we find the power to pass
by-laws imposing direct taxation. (Hear,
hear.) That is the first power they have,
and I have no doubt that, before many
months have passed after they are constituted, they will find it necessary to resort
to it. But, in addition to this, find that
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, which, no
doubt, are the favored children of the Confederation, have powers not granted to the
other
provinces. New Brunswick, the resolution
declares, shall have the power to impose an export duty on timber, logs, masts, spars,
deals and sawn lumber, and Nova Scotia on coal and other materials, for local, purposes
;
so that while our timber and minerals exported from Upper and Lower Canada will be
taxed by the General Government for general
purposes, the timber and minerals of New
Brunswick and Nova Scotia will be exempt,
the revenue derived from them going to the
benefit of the local governments, to be expended on local objects. (Hear, hear.)
This
is one of the results of the Conference in
which, of course, New Brunswick counted as
much as Upper and Lower Canada, and
Nova Scotia and the other Lower Provinces
the balance of influence. (Hear, hear.)
Now, among the other powers granted to the
General Government is its control over agriculture and immigration, as well as the
fisheries. An honorable member from Upper
Canada (MR. MACKENZIE of Lambton), enquired very anxiously, yesterday, if it was
possible that any act respecting agriculture
could be affected by the General Government ?
Well, sir, it is as plain as can be that agriculture and immigration are to be under
the
control of both the local and the general legislatures. And the forty- fifth resolution
says : —"In regard to all subjects over which
jurisdiction belongs to the general and local
legislatures, the laws of the General Parliament shall control and supersede those
made by
the Local Legislature, and the latter shall be
void so far as they are repugnant to or inconsistent with the former." What will
be the
operation of this provision ? The Local Legislature will pass a law which will then
go to the
General Government ; the latter will put its
veto upon it, and if that does not answer, it
will pass a law contrary to it, and you have
at once a conflict. ( Hear, hear.) .
HON. MR. HOLTON—Then they will
fight. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) No sectional difficulties then !
HON. MR. DORION—Oh ! none whatever. I may pass now perhaps to the consideration of a portion ofthe
financial part of the
scheme. I shall certainly not attempt to follow
the Hon. Finance Minister in what I admit
was the able statement, or rather able manipulation of figures, he made the other
day.
When that honorable gentleman was able to
prove to the satisfaction of the BARINGS , the
GLYNS, and the leading merchants of England
that the investment they would make in the
Grand Trunk Railway would yield them at
least 11 per cent., it is not astonishing that he
was able to show to this House that the finances of the Confederation will be in a
most
flourishing condition, and that we shall have
a surplus every year of at least a million dollars.
(Laughter.) Â From what I knew of former
prophecies, I imagined he would make it eleven
or twelve millions at any rate, but he is modest and puts it down at only a million.
But
how does he make out even this moderate surplus? He takes, in the first place, the
revenue of Newfoundland for 1862. I had the
curiosity to look for the reason, and what do
you suppose it is ? The revenue for 1862
was the highest he could find, except 1860.
(Hear, hear.) Then he takes the revenue of
New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Canada,
or 1863—the highest figures again (Hear,
hear.) Taking all this, he still finds a de
260ficiency of $827,512, which he provides for
by adding a supposed increase for 1864 of
$100,000 for each of the Provinces of Nova
Scotia and New Brunswick, and $1,500,000
for Canada. (Hear, hear.) And this leaves
a surplus of just $872,488. (Hear, hear.)
Well, even granting that on the 31st of December he had a surplus of a million, if
at the
end of the present financial year it is not diminished to half a million by his militia
and
other expenditure, I shall be very agreeably
surprised. (Hear.) This, then, is the inducement he offers to the country to adopt
this scheme. I have a million more than I
want, he exclaims, and I will reduce the duties to 15 per cent. But the honorable
gentleman forgets that he has the Intercolonial
Railway to provide for, as well as that military
and naval defensive force which we are going
to raise. (Hear, hear.) He forgets all this,
but the promise is there; and just as he held
out to the expected shareholders of the
Grand Trunk Railway the 11 per cent. dividends upon their investments, he now tells
the people of these several colonies that the
customs duties will be reduced to 15 per cent.
(Hear, hear.) I do not desire to go over the
figures the honorable gentleman has laid before
the House, for I have not the talent of grouping them together, so as to present an
attractive, but deceptive, whole, that he possesses
in such an eminent degree. I find in the
resolutions now proposed a few propositions
to which I would call the attention of the
House. The first thing that the Confederation will have to provide for is the Intercolonial
Railway, which will certainly cost
twenty millions of dollars, the interest upon
which, at 5 per cent., will amount to one
million of dollars annually. (Hear, hear.)
Then to Newfoundland we are bound to pay
$150,000 a year, for all time to come, to
purchase the mineral lands of that colony ;
while, as regards the other provinces, all the
public lands are given up to the local governments. But that is not all, for, in order
to
manage these "valuable lands" in Newfoundland, we shall have to establish a Crown
Lands department under the General Government ; and if honorable gentlemen desire
to learn something of the probable expense of
such an establishment, they need only refer
to a return brought down last night, by which
they will see that there are no less than sixty
or seventy officers in the Crown Lands department, and that some eight or ten new
appointments have been made since March
last, when the present Government was formed.
(Hear, hear.) This return is a highly instructive one in other respects. It shows
that within that period there is not a department of the Government that has not increased
its force of employés, except that of the
Attorney General East, who is satisfied with
the three officers it contained before he returned to the Government. (Hear, hear.)
I may state, however, that in the return
there is an omission which ought to be supplied. The honorable gentleman has made
a
large number of appointments connected with
the administration of justice in Lower Canada
that are not mentioned. This return is, however, instructive as showing the additional
number of appointments that have been made
within the past year in all the departments—
several of whom have been taken from their
seats in this House and appointed to offices
to make room for others here.
HON. MR. HOLTON—Oh! there are only
four of them—that's all. (Laughter.)
HON. MR. DORION— Then New Brunswick is to get a special subsidy of $63,000 a
year for ten years. It is evident this sum is
voted to that province to enable it to avoid
the necessity of direct taxation.
HON. MR. HOLTON—Of course it could
not impose direct taxation, for it has no municipal machinery. ( Laughter.)
MON. MR. DORION—Now, I find from a
speech delivered by Hon. Mr. TILLEY, the head
of the New Brunswick Government, that this
grant of $63,000 a year, beyond the subsidy
of 80 cents per head of the population for the
purposes of local government, will give New
Brunswick $34,000 a-year over and above all
its necessities. (Hear, hear.) Under these
circumstances, there need be no direct taxation
in that province. The whole speech of Hon.
Mr. TILLEY, to which I refer, would be found
very instructive if I could read it all, but I
am afraid of wearying the House. (Cries of
"go on.") Well, after reciting the various
advantages that will be conferred on New
Brunswick by Confederation, Hon. Mr. TILLEY says :—
Over and above all these advantages, we get
for ten years a subsidy of $63,000 per anuum;
our local expenditures, summed up, amount to
$320,630 ; and we get from the General Government, without increased taxation, $90,000
in lieu
of our export duty (it should be " import duty,")
and casual territorial revenue, making $201,637,
and a special subsidy of $63,000 a year for ten
years, making in all $354,637, being $34,000
over and above our present necessities. These
are the principal points looked to. (Hear, hear.)
But, honorable gentlemen will remember, Hon
261
Mr. TILLEY declared—no Intercolonial Railway, no Confederation—and Canada gave him
what he wanted. (Hear, hear.) It is not New
Brunswick alone that is to get something
handsome over and above its necessities. I
have here a letter from the Charlottetown
(P. E. I.) Examiner, wherein Mr. WHELAN,
the editor, and one of the delegates at the
Quebec Conference, sums up the advantages to be obtained b Prince Edward Island
pretty much as Hon. Mr. TILLEY does for New
Brunswick. He says :—
By this arrangement the debt of Prince Edward
Island will be guaranteed to the amount of
$2,025,00—the interest of which, at five per
cent. will be $101,250. Add to this the proportion which the Confederation has given
to
each province for the support of their local administration, at the rate of 80 cents
per head,
giving for the population of Prince Edward
lang, which is 81,000, the sum ot $64,800 ; we
have then a total of $166,050, which Prince
Edward Island will receive annually. Deduct
from this sum $12,000 for interest at five percent.
on our debt of ÂŁ75,000 or $240,000, and the balance in our favor will be $154,050,
which sum exceeds by nearly forty-eight thousand dollars the
actual cost of our local affairs, the Central Government undertaking to pay certain
general expenses.
(Hear, hear.)
The general expenses he alludes to are the
salaries of the governor, judges, and so on,
which the General Government will pay. Thus,
sir, we have Mr. WHELAN, one of the delegates, and Hon. Mr. TILLEY, another, chuckling
over the good bargains they have made at
the expense of Canada, and endeavoring in this
manner to carry the scheme of Confederation
by showing that New Brunswick is to have
$34,000 over and above its necessities, and
Prince Edward Island $48,000. I would
advise the Hon. Finance Minister, when he is
indistress for want of money, to go down there
and borrow this surplus which we will have
to pay to these provinces ; they will no doubt,
be willing tolend on favorable terms. (Laughter.) I have entered into a short calculation
to show what proportion Upper and Lower Canada will respectively have to bear of
these additional burdens, - $63,000 a year for
ten years to New Brunswick, would make a
capital at five per cent. of about $350,000.
HON. MR. DORION—My calculation is
rather under than over the mark, but let us
take $350,000 as the capitalized value of this
annuity for ten years. That gives an interest
of $17,500 per annum forever. Now, supposing the increased extent of territory to
be
defended under the Confederation augments
the militia expenditure to the extent of a
million a-year—this, I think, is a very reasonable estimate, and will not go very
far towards carrying out the intentions of the Conference respecting military and
naval defence,
as explained by the President of the Council
to his Tomato audience. Then add the interest of the sum required to build the Inter-
colonial Railway, five per cent. on $20,000,000,
and we have an annual payment of $1,000,000
more, which is increased by $150,000, the indemnity paid to Newfoundland for its valuable
mineral lands. Then we have to pay the local
governments, at the rate of 80 cents per head,
$3,056,849. The interest on the debt of
Nova Scotia, $8,000,000, will amount to $400,000; on that of New Brunswick, $7,000,000,
to $350,000; on that of Newfoundland, $3,250,000, to $162,000; and on the debt of
Prince Edward Island, $2,021,425, to $101,071. Adding all these sums together, we
find
that the annual expenditure, in addition be it
remembered to the burdens which we now bear,
will be $6,237,920—( hear, hear)—representing a capital of $124,758,400. (Hear, hear.)
The share of Canada in this annual expenditure will be $1.89 head, amounting to the
sum of $4,725,000. This is altogether irrespective of the debt of $62,500,000 with
which
Canada enters the union. The share of Upper Canada, according to population, will
be
$2,646,000 ; but Upper Canadians have long
claimed that they paid upwards of two-thirds
of the expenditure, and the
Globe lately
said that this was the proportion ten years ago,
but that the disparity had greatly increased
since. If Upper Canada really pays two-thirds
of the expenditure, its share in the additional
but necessary expenditure will be $3,183,334
per annum. (Hear, hear.) This is taking
or granted that the Lower Provinces should
pay their share according to po ulation. I
have my doubts about that, and believe that
the city of Montreal pays a little more duty on
imports than Prince Edward, and more, perhaps than Prince Edward Island and Newfoundland
put together, and that the population of the District of Montreal pay a good
deal more per head than that of New Brunswick.
HON. MR DORION—I mean to say that
the inhabitants of the city of Montreal pay a
great deal more than the inhabitants of any
similar portion of any of the provinces, and
that the district of Montreal consumes as much
as any other section of the same extent and
262
population. But I have taken these figures,
as to the relative contribution of Upper and
Lower Canada to the revenue, as given by the
organ of the President of the Council. But,
sir, we have been told, for ten years past, that
Upper Canada wanted representation by population for nothing else but because Lower
Canada was spending the money of the province lavishly—two-thirds of it coming from
the pockets of the people of Upper Canada.
We have been told that it was not to interfere
with the institutions, language, or laws of
Lower Canada, but merely to give Upper
Canada proper control over the finances.
That was the only thing to be gained by it.
HON. MR. DORION—Perhaps the honorable gentleman will recollect a letter written
by the honorable member for Mentreal West
to " my dear friend MACARROW," of Kingston
It was on the eve of the general election in
June 1861, and intended to induce the people
of Upper Canada to join in putting out that
bad Administration that had been the bane of
the country—the CARTIER-MACDONALD Administration. The reasons which were given
were as follows:—
First.—Because they collectively violated the
Constitution and outraged the moral sense of the
country by the double-shuffle and double swearing
of 1858. Second.—Because they violated the
Constitution by allowing payments, and granting
gratuities, and giving or procuring lucrative contracts for members of Parliament,
or their supporters, as witness the payments, grants and contracts made or given to
Mr. Turcotte, Mr. McLEON, Mr. BENJAMIN, Mr. A. P. MACDONALD, and
Mr.  McMICKEN. Third.—Because they violated
the Constitution by keeping for three sessions
Messrs. ALLEYN, DUBORD and SIMARD in their
seats for Quebec on a pretended majority of
15,000 votes. Fourth.—Because they violated
the Constitution by justifying the sale of oflices
in Sheriff MERCER'S case, and in retaining the
Hon. Col. PRINCE in the Upper House as their
active partisan, after his officee had been created
and his commission made out, as Judge of the
District of Algoma. Fifth.—Because they violated the Constitution by keeping JOSEPH C.
MORRISON in the Cabinet, as Minister of the
Crown, after he had been three times rejected by
the people. Sixth.—Because they violated the
Constitution in abandoning to the discretion of
Sir EDMUND HEAD personally, the sole representation of the people of Canada, during
the memorable visit of His Royal Highness the Prince of
WALES. Seventh.—Because they have continuously and systematically violated the Constitution
in expending vast sums of money, amounting in
the aggregate to several millions of dollars, without the authority of Parliament.
Â
Sir, I advise the honorable gentleman to continue that correspondence and add the
$100,000 which the Grand Trunk Railway had got,
and the bill of exchange affair.
MR. POWELL— The Confederation is
worth all that. (Laughter.) Â
This indictment will be admitted to contain
grave misdemeanors and breaches of trust, which
ought to be punished by the peeple, now that
they have the offenders up for judgment. Whatever differences of opinion may exist
among the
Opposition, whether members or leaders, as to
the nature and extent of the constitutional reforms demanded in our present frame
of Government, there is not a shadow of difference in
this point, that some remedy must be found at
once for the unprincipled expenditure of the public money which is daily demoralizing
our public
men, beggaring the country, and retarding its
natural ratio of increase . Â Â Â . Â Â . Â Â . Â Â . Â Â Â We
want, first of all, an honest government, a really
responsible government— which, except in the
clearest case of necessity, such as an invasion of
the soil, will not on any pretext whatever lavish
the people's money without the authority of the
people's representatives.
Well, sir, this was the advice given to Upper
Canada in 1861, by one of the leaders, the Â
present Hon. Minister of Agriculture.
HON. MR. DORION—It has much to do
with it. It shows that representation by population was put forth as a remedy for
the
financial evils of our present system of government. Under this adviceUpper Canada
gave a large majority against the Government
of the day, and the members elected turned
round, and by abandoning, for a time at least,
representation by population, they acknowledged that the financial question was paramount
to it. I have shown, Mr. SPEAKER,
I think, the proportion which Upper Canada
would have to pay of the increased expenditure which must immediately ensue from the
adoption of Confederation which is proposed to
free Upper Canada from a larger expenditure
by Lower Canada than what she contributes to
the revenue. Now, let us see what that expenditure is. The whole expenditure of
the
province exclusive of interest on public debt,
costs of legislation, militia, subsin to ocean
steamers and collection of revenue, which
will have to be paid even with Confederation,
if it takes place, does not amount to more
than $2,500,000, or one dollar per head of
the whole population. Then supposing that
263
Upper Canada pays two-thirds of that sum,
or $1,666,666, and Lower Canada one-third,
Upper Canada would only pay $266,666
more than her share according to population.
And it is, I say, to get rid of this expenditure
of a couple of hundred thousand dollars that
the Upper Canadian members of the Government repose that their section of the country
should pay an additional yearly expenditure
of $3,181,000, yielding no return whatsoever
—(hear, hear)—and to saddle on Lower Canada an additional expenditure of from $1,500,000
to $2,000,000 a year—the amount
depending on the proportion which they respectively contribute to the revenue of the
country. And, Mr. SPEAKER, this is only
the immediate and necessary expenditure that
will fall on the people of Canada at the very
outset. There is not a single sixpence in this
estimate for any improvements to be made in
the eastern or western portion of the Confederacy. (Hear, hear.) But, sir, respecting
the defences of the country, I should have said
at an earlier stage of my remarks that this
scheme proposes a union not only with Nova
Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward
Island, and Newfoundland, but also with
British Columbia and Vancouver's Island.
Although I have not been able to get the
information from the Government—for they
do not seem to be very ready to give information—yet I understand that there are despatches
to hand, stating that resolutions have
adopted in the Legislature of British
Columbia asking for admission into the Confederation at once. I must confess, Mr.
SPEAKER, that it looks like a burlesque to
speak as a means of defence of a scheme of
Confederation to unite the whole country
extending from Newfoundland to Vancouver's
Island, thousands of miles intervening without
any communication, except through the United
States or around Cape Horn. Â (Oh ! )
HON. MR. DORION—Yes, I suppose that
is another necessity of Confederation, to which
we may soon look forward. Some western
extension of this Grand Trunk scheme for
the benefit of Messrs. WATKIN & Co., of the
new Hudson's Bay Company. So far as
Lower Canada is concerned, I need hardly
stop to point out the objections to the scheme.
It is evident, from what has transpired, that
it is intended eventually to form a legislative
union of all the provinces. The local governments, in addition .to the General Government
will be found so burdensome, that a
majority of the people will appeal to the Imperial Government for the formation of
a legislative union. (Hear, hear.) I may well
ask if there is any member from Lower Canada, of French extraction, who is ready to
vote for a legislative union. What do I find in
connection with the agitation of this scheme ?
The honorable member for Sherbrooke stated
at the dinner to the delegates given at Toronto,
after endorsing everything that had been
said by the Honorable President of the Council :—
We may hope that, at no far distant day, we
may become willing to enter into a Legislative
Union instead of a federal union, as now proposed. We would have all have desired
a legislative union. and to see the power concentrated in
the Central Government as it exists in England, Â
spreading the aegis of its protection over all the
institutions of the land, but we found it was impossible to do that at first. We
found that there '
were difficulties in the way which could not be
overcome.
Honorable members from Lower Canada
are made aware that the delegates all desired
a legislative union, but it could not be accomplished at once. This Confederation
is the
first necessary step towards it. The British
Government is ready to grant a Federal union
at once, and when that is accomplished the
French element will be completely overwhelmed by the majority of British representatives
What then would prevent the
Federal Government from passing a set of
resolutions in a similar way to those we are
called upon to pass, without submitting them
to the people, calling upon the Imperial Government to set aside the Federal form
of government and give a legislative union instead
of it ? (Hear, hear.) Perhaps the people
of Upper Canada think a legislative union a
most esirable thing. I can tell those gentlemen that the people of Lower Canada are
attached to their institutions in a manner that
defies any attempt to change them in that
way. They will not change their religious
institutions, their laws and their language, for
any consideration whatever. A million of
inhabitants may seem a small affair to the
mind of a philosopher who sits down to write
out a constitution. He may think it would
be better that there should be but one religion,
one language and one system of laws, and he
goes to work to frame institutions that will
bring all to that desirable state; but I can
tell honorable gentlemen that the history of Â
every country goes to show that not even by
the power of the sword can such changes be
264
accomplished. (Hear, hear.) We have the
history of the Greek race, having at one time
a population of six millions, dwindling down
to seven hundred thousand, and we find them
even then, after several centuries of oppression, rising up and asserting their rights.
(Hear, hear.) We have the same circumstance in the history of Belgium, which was
united to Holland with a view to secure the
assimilation of the two countries, but fifteen
years of trial had hardly elapsed when the
whole of the Belgium people and Government
rose en masse to protest against that union,
and to assert their separate nationality. (Hear,
hear.) Sir, it is not only from the history of
the past we may derive the lesson, but we
have the circumstances of the present generation to guide us. I am astonished to see
the
honorable member for Montreal West helping
a scheme designed to end in a legislative union,
the object of which can only be to assimilate
the whole people to the dominant population.
In that honorable gentleman's own country
the system has produced nothing but a dissatisfied and rebellious people. Is it desirable
that in this country then we should pass a
measure calculated to give dissatisfaction to a
million of people ? You may ascertain what the
cost of keeping down a million of dissatisfied
people is by the scenes that have been and are
now transpiring on the other side of the line,
where a fifth of the people of the United
States has risen and has caused more misery
and misfortune to be heaped upon that
country than could have been wrought in centuries of peaceful compromising legislation.
Sir, if a legislative union of the British
American Provinces is attempted, there will
be such an agitation in this portion of the
province as was never witnessed before—you
will see the whole people of Lower Canada
clinging together to resist by all legal and constitutional means, such an attempt
at wresting
from them those institutions that they now
enjoy. They would go as a body to the
Legislature, voting as one man, and caring
for nothing else but for the protection of their
beloved institutions and law, and making government all but impossible. The ninety
Irish
members in the British House of Commons,
composed as it is of nearly seven hundred
members, by voting together have caused their
influence to be felt, as in the grants to the
Maynooth College and some other questions.
It would be the same way with the people of
Lower Canada, and a more deplorable state of
things would be the inevitable result. The
majority would be forced by the minority to
do things they would not, under the circumstances, think of doing. This is a state
so
undesirable that, although I am strongly opposed to the proposed Federal union, I
am
still more strongly opposed to a legislative
union. Those who desire a legislative union
may see from this what discordant elements
they would have to deal with in undertaking
the task, and what misery they would bring
upon the country by such a step. (Hear,
hear.) I know there is an apprehension
among the British population in Lower Canada
that, with even the small power that the Local
Government will possess, their rights will not
be respected. How, then, can it be expected
that the French population can anticipate any
more favorable result from the General Government, when it is to possess such enormous
powers over the destinies of their section of
the country ? Experience shows that majorities are always aggressive, and it cannot
well
be otherwise in this instance. It therefore
need not be wondered at that the people of
Lower Canada, of British origin, are ready to
make use of every means to prevent their
being placed at the mercy of a preponderating
population of a different origin. I agree with
them in thinking that they ought to take
nothing on trust in this matter of entering
upon a new state of political existence, and
neither ought we of French origin to do so,
in relation to the General Government, however happy our relations to each other may
be
at present.
HON. MR. MCGEE—That is a glorious
doctrine to instil into society. (Hear, hear.)
HON. MR. DORION—Well it is the doctrine generally acted upon, and correctly so.
When my honorable friend makes a contract
with a friend and neighbor to be filled even
a few months in the future, does he not have
it put in legal form, in black and white ? Of
course he does. And when we are making
arrangements calculated to last for all time to
come, is it not vastly more important that the
same safe and equitable principle should be
recognized ? (Hear, hear.) The honorable
gentleman recognized it himself in the most
marked manner, by placing in the resolutions
guarantees respecting the educational institutions of the two sections of Canada.
The
Roman Catholics of Upper Canada were
anxious to have their rights protected against
the hand of the Protestant majority, and,
where the Protestants are in a minority, they
are just as anxious to have their rights permanently protected. But, sir, the whole
scheme, since it must be taken or rejected as
265
a whole, is one which I do not think any honorable member of this House can really
endorse in an unreserved manner, if he were
to speak his sentiments freely. I see nothing
in it but another railway scheme for the benefit
of a few—and I cannot better describe the
whole project than by a quotation from the
remarks of a gentleman, who expressed himself
on the subject of Confederation and the Intercolonial Railway a very short time before
he became a member of the present Administration, and a warm advocate of both these
bubbles. After speaking of the visit of Mr.
WATKIN to this country, he closes with the
following :—
If our Government were to rush into the railway project, expend a large sum of money
upon
the road, and form a compact immediately with
Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward Island, both the alliance and the road
would be carried out mainly for the benefit of the
dominant power in this province at this moment ;
we need hardly say we mean Lower Canada.
The important question to Upper Canada—her
connection with the North-West Territory—would
be altogether ignored, Quebec would be made
the capital of the Federation, representation by
population would form no part of the compact,
and, instead of having one leech draining her of
her resources, Upper Canada would have three.
Before entering into new alliances. it should be
the effort of Upper Canadians to regulate the
affairs of their own province, to obtain representation by population, and to open
the North-West
Territory, so that when the Federation of all the
British American provinces does come, it may be
found with Upper Canada as the central figure of
the group of states, with western adjuncts as well
as eastern. Not even the most ardent supporter
of the union of all the provinces can allege that
there is any absolute necessity for haste in carrying out the project. Nobody is being
hurt by
the provinces remaining in their present condition ;
no one single material interest, either in Canada
or the Lower Provinces, would be enhanced in
value by the union.
This appeared in the Globe in 1863.
HON. MR. HOLTON—I think the Minister of Agriculture might inform my honorable friend.
HON. MR. DORION—On the 15th of Oc
tober, Hon. Mr. BROWN'S paper further stated :—
The line, in fact, will leave us just where we
are now. In the summer, when navigation is
opened, we can send produce down the river and
gulf, and, to some extent, compete with the
Americans. But in the winter, to suppose we
can send flour and wheat over this long land route
cheaper than the Americans can send it from the
eastern ports, is an absurdity which no man acquainted with the trade will commit.
Again, on the 17th of October, in the same
year, it said :—
The road is to run mainly through a country
which does not belong to Canada, but which cannot, under any possible circumstances,
bring any
profit or return, directly or indirectly.
On the 20th it said :—
It will not be wise for the opponents of the
measure to rely upon present appearances. The
ministerial project must b resisted at every stage,
in the press and in Parliament.
Again, on the 25th of the same month :—
With fair professions of retrenchment and
economy on their lips, Ministers took office , but
three short months afterwards we find them
launching a new railroad scheme upon the market, admittedly more onerous at the moment
of
initiation than was the Grand Trunk at the same
stage.
Sir, I agree with the statement, that to go
into the construction of this road without
knowing what it is to cost, or over what particular route it is to be built, is a
thing not
to be thought of by any prudent member of
this House, and that such a proposal ought to
be resisted at every stage. I think, too, that
the whole scheme, apart from the construction
of the railway, is worse than the railway
scheme itself, and ought to be still more
strongly opposed. It is a mere revival of a
scheme that has been rejected by the people
on every occasion on which it has been
presented to them during the past seven years.
Independent of various other considerations
the mere question of its expense ought to
cause it to be rejected by the representatives
of the people. When the duties on imports
were raised to twenty and twenty-five per
cent., what was the cry we heard from the
lower portion of the province ? It was that
the people were quite unable to pay such a
serious tax, and the result was the establishment of a free port at Gaspé. We have
not,
for several years, collected a single cent of
income from that large section of country, but
have, from year to year, paid out large sums
of money for the opening up of roads, for the
administration of justice, and for keeping up
266
a steam summer communication with the extreme eastern section of the province. More
money has been squandered in that section of
the country than on any other, yet it has
produced no revenue. And that was the
character of the country through which the
Intercolonial road was to run, both in Canada
and in New Brunswick. For we are asked to
add, at one stroke, to our debt of sixty —two
and a half millions of dollars, an annual c harge
representing in capital the moderate sum of
one hundred and twenty-four millions—for
that is the financial nature of the proposition,
and this for the purpose of adding 900,000
inhabitants to our population, most of whom
are not in a better position, if they are in as
good, as the people of the district of Gaspé.
Hear, hear.) Sir, in 1841, nearly twenty-
five years ago, Lower Canada entered into the
union of the provinces with a debt of ÂŁ133,000. That was a debt created by the Special
Council, for the Legislature of Lower Canada
under the old Constitution owed not a penny
when it ceased to exist. That debt was
created between 1837 and 1840. Since the
union there have been expended in Lower
Canada, for the Beauharnois canal, the enlargement of the Lachine canal, the works
on Lake St. Peter, and the Chambly canal,
about four millions of dollars. Besides, we
have three hundred and fifty miles of the
Grand Trunk Railway—about a hundred less
than Upper Canada. Taking one-half the
cost to the province of that railway ——two
million pounds currency, or eight millions of
dollars—we have four millions for canals and
eight millions for railways. Twelve millions
of dollars have, therefore, been expended for
public works in Lower Canada, with perhaps
another million for other small works—in all,
thirteen millions of dollars.
HON. MR. DORION—The Montreal harbor will pay for itself. The Government will
not be called upon to pay a single sixpence of
its indebtedness. The province only guarantees a small portion of its debentures,
and will
never have to pay a copper of it, any more
than it will of the municipal indebtedness of
the city of Montreal, the interest of which is
regularly paid every year. Twelve or thirteen
millions of dollars' worth of public works is
all we are able to show for an increase of our
debt from ÂŁ133,000 at the time of the union,
to $27,500,000, which, on going out of the
union to enter into the Confederation, is the
Lower Canada proportion of the $62,500,
000 of public debt we are bringing into it.
I do not take into consideration the Municipal
Loan Fund indebtedness, nor the Seigniorial
Tenure redemption, because if we have received any benefit from the outlay, we are
going to be charged for those items separately
over and above our share in the $62,500,000.
If I am not right in thus stating the case, I
hope honorable gentlemen on the other side
of the House will correct me. From the explanations given the other day by the Honorable
Finance Minister, I infer that by putting
the Seigniorial Tenure to the charge of Lower
Canada, and by Upper Canada abandoning
its indemnity or the Seigniorial Tenure expenditure, there is no necessity for taking
those items into account as part of the
liability of Canada in the Confederation;
that the charge for the redemption of the
Seigniorial Tenure, the township indemnity
under the Seigniorial Act of 1859, the interest
on that indemnity, the liability of the province to the Superior Education Fund, and
the loss on the Lower Canada Municipal Loan
Fund, amounting in all to about $4,500,000,
will have to be paid by Lower Canada alone, the
interest on which, at five per cent, will be
$225,000, which sum will be retained out of
the $880,000 to be paid the General Government to Lower Canada or local purposes,
leaving something less than 60 cents per head
for carrying on the Local Government. Upper
Canada came into the union with a debt of
ÂŁ1,300,000. Immediately after the union
ÂŁ1,500,000 sterling was borrowed for public
works, most of which amount was expended in
Upper Canada. And yet Upper Canada goes
out of the union by simply abandoning its
claim for indemnity under the Seigniorial
Tenure Act, having nothing to assume but its
Municipal Loan Fund and its share in the
Federal debt; while Lower Canada, on the
contrary, goes out with a load of $4,500,000
of local debt, besides the $27,500,000
which falls to its share to be paid through
the General Government. And this, too,
after paying for twenty-five years a highly
increase taxation, for all which it has
nothing to show except public improvements
to the amount of about $13,000,000. Sir,
if such a scheme as this, on being submitted to the people, would be approved by them,
I am very much mistaken. I submit that no
such project ought to be voted by the House,
before we have the fullest information necessary to enable us to come to right conclusions.
(Hear, hear.) It is for the security of the
majority, as well as of the minority, I make
267
this demand. Honorable gentlemen who cry
"hear! hear !" may find themselves very much
disappointed, if, after this portion of the scheme
is passed, the local constitutions proposed
were quite unsatisfactory. I contend that
the local constitutions are as much an essential
part of the whole as the general Constitution,
and that they both should have been laid at
the same time before the House. (Hear,
hear.) We ought, besides, to have a clear
statement of what are the liabilities specially
assigned to Upper and Lower Canada. (Hear,
hear.) It is well that Upper Canada should
know if she has to pay the indebtedness
of Port Hope, Cobourg, Brockville, Niagara, and other municipalities which have
borrowed from the municipal loan fund,
and what these liabilities are; and it is
important for Lower Canada to be told
what are the amounts they will be required
to tax themselves for. We ought, besides, to
obtain some kind of information upon the
subject of the Intercolonial Railway, what is
the proposed cost, and what route is to be
followed; and before these facts are before the
House, we ought not to take it upon ourselves
to legislate on the subject. Still further, the
people of the country do not understand the
scheme. (Hear, hear.) Many members of
this House, before hearing the explanations
which have been offered, were, and others are
still, in doubt as to the bearing of many of
these resolutions. In the Upper House doubts
were expressed as to who should recommend
the appointment of the members composing
the Legislative Council. It was thought in
many quarters that the appointment of these
members was to be made by the local governments after the scheme should come into
operation. But this it seems is a mistake.
There are many other matters with which we
are unacquainted, particularly as regards the
assets and liabilities. There is a provision
that the nomination of the judges of the
superior courts shall be vested in the General
Government, but it would seem that the constitution of the courts is to be left to
the
local governments; and I put the question,
What does this mean? Do you mean that
the local governments are to establish as many
courts as they please, declare of how many
judges they will be composed, and that the
General Government will have to pay for
them? Is a local government to say, here is a
court with three judges; we want five, and those
five must be appointed and paid by the General Government ? I have received no answer
to this and to several other questions. I can
well understand what is meant by the regulation of the law of divorce; but what is
meant
by the regulation of the marriage question ?
Is the General Government to be at liberty
to set aside all that we have been in the habit
of doing in Lower Canada in this respect ?
Will the General Government have the power
to determine the degree of relationship and
the age beyond which parties may marry,
as well as the consent which will be required
to make a marriage valid? (Hear, ear.)
Will all these questions be left to the General
Government? If so, it will have the power
to upset one of the most important portions
of our civil code, and one affecting more
than any other all classes of society. The
adoption, for instance, of the English rule,
whereby females at the age of twelve, and
males at the age of fourteen, can contract a
valid marriage without the consent of parents,
tutors or guardians, would be looked to by the
mass of the people of Lower Canada as a most
objectionable innovation in our laws, as would
also any provision to allow such marriages to
take place before any common magistrate
without any formality whatsoever. (Hear,
hear.) Yet is there no danger that such
measures might be carried, when you see the
different feelings existing on these questions
among the people of the different provinces ?
There is another question to which I must
refer before closing. It is said that the
division of the debt is a fair one. We have
given, say the Government, $25 of debt to
each inhabitant—that is, in those provinces
where it was less, they have increased it to
that amount, charging it to the Confederation, and thereb they have made a present
to
the several provinces of the difference between
their present indebtedness and the 425 per
head. (Laughter.) This $25 per head,
when compared to the debt of England, is a
heavier burden upon our own people than the
Imperial debt upon the people of England,
taking into consideration the greater wealth
per individual in England and the fact that
the greater part of that debt bears three per
cent. interest. (Hear, hear.) There is another aspect in which this question of debt
is
to be considered. To equalize it, the Conference have increased it on the basis of
the
present pulation for the several provinces.
This is fair enough at present, supposing that
each province contribute the same proportion
to the general revenue, and would continue to
be so if their population progressed in the
same ratio of increase; but, from the
natural advantages of Upper and Lower
268
Canada, and their greater area of arable lands,
there is no doubt they will increase in population and wealth in a much greater ratio
than
the Lower Provinces, and in ten years hence,
this proprtion, which this day appears a fair
one, will have much increased for Upper and
Lower Canada, while it will have diminished
for the Lower Provinces. (Hear, hear.) I
owe an apology to the House for having offered such lengthened remarks on this question,
and I have to thank honorable members
for having so kindly listened to them. (Cries
of "go on.") I will simply content myself
with saying that for these reasons which I
have so imperfectly exposed, I strongly fear
it would be a dark day for Canada when she
adopted such a scheme as this. (Cheers.) It
would be one marked in the history of this
country as having had a most depressing and
crushing influence on the energies of the people in both Upper and Lower Canada—(hear
hear) — for I consider it one of the worst
schemes that could be brought under the consideration of the House ; and if it should
be
adopted without the sanction of the people,
the country would never cease to regret it.
(Hear, hear.) What is the necessity for all
this haste ? The longer this Constitution is
expected to last, the greater the necessity for
the fullest consideration and dehberation. I
find, sir, that when, in 1839, Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought into the House of Commons
his
first measure for the union of the provinces,
he announced his intention to lay his measure
before the House, have it read a second time,
and postpone it till next session, to give a
year to the people of Canada to consider it
and make such representations as they would
think proper. (Hear, hear.) And it was only
in the subsequent session, and after undergoing considerable modifications in the
mean
time, that the measure was passed. Nothing
could be more reasonable than such delay.
But here it seems the people are to be treated with less respect than they were when
their
Constitution was suspended , and this measure is to be pushed with indecent haste.
There are three modes of obtaining the views
of the people upon the question now under
discussion. The most direct one would be,
after debating it in this House, to submit it
to the people for their verdict, yea or nay.
The second is to dissolve the House and
appeal to the people. The third is to discuss
and pass the resolutions or address to a
second reading, and afterwards leave it open
to the ublic to judge of its merits, by meeting an discussing it, and sending in petitions
and instructing their representatives how to
vote upon it when they came to Parliament
at the next session. Any one of these
methods would elicit the views of the people.
But to say that the opinions of the people
have been ascertained on the question, I say
it is no such thing. (Hear, hear.) We
have heard one side of the question discussed,
but we have heard none of the views on the
other side ; and yet the feeling, as exhibited
in some parts of the country, has been unmistakeably in favor of an appeal to the
people. Some fifteen counties in Lower
Canada have held meetings and declared for
an appeal before the scheme is allowed to
pass ; and when honorable gentlemen on the
other side have held second meetings, they
have been condemned more conclusively than
at first. (Hear, hear.) In the county of
Rouville, the hon. member representing that
county , not satisfied with the first expression
of opinion, held a second meeting , but the
decision was still more emphatic than at the
first. (Hear, hear.) Then meetings have
been held, all tending to the same conclusion,
in St. Maurice, Maskinongé, Berthier, Joliette, Richelieu, Chambly, Vercherès, Bagot,
St. Hyacinthe, Iberville, St. John's, Napierville, Drummond and Arthabaska, Two
Mountains, Vaudreuil, and also in the city of
Montreal.
HON. MR. DORION—Yes, a meeting was
called, and called without the requisite
notice ; the notice having been given at the
church doors on a Friday for a meeting on
the next day; but notwithstanding, when
the meeting was held, the hon. gentleman did
not dare press a resolution in favor of Confederation, but simply one of confidence
in
himself. (Hear, hear.) His friends colected together, and all they did was to
express confidence in him. There was no
resolution in favor of Confederation, nor of
passing such a measure without submitting
it to the people. (Hear, hear.) I have now
to thank the House for the patience with
which they have listened to my remarks.
In the terms of the paragraph I have quoted
from the
Globe, I shall feel it my duty to
resist the passage of the measure at every
stage, with a view that the scheme should
go to the people in some shape or other.
(Hear, hear.) There is no hurry in regard
to the scheme. We are now legislating for
the future as well as for the present, and
feeling that we ought to make a Constitution
as perfect as possibe, and as far as possible
269
in harmony with the views of the people, I
maintain that we ought not to pass this
measure now, but leave it to another year, in
order to ascertain in the meantime what the
views and sentimentsof the people actually
are. (The honorablc gentleman was loudly
cheered on resuming his seat.)
After some discussion as to the mode of
continuing the debate, the House adjourned
at ten minutes past twelve.
This individual participated in:
