Bill (No.253) to increase the representation of the North-west Territories in the
Senate, read a second time, and the House
went into committee thereon.
On Section 1.
Bill reported, read the third time, and
passed.
GOVERNMENT OF THE NORTH-WEST TERRITORIES-FINANCIAL AID.
House went into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution :
Resolved that it is expedient to enact as follows :—
1. The Governor General may, in his discretion from time to time, advance to the government
of the North-west Territories any sum required for local improvements in the Northwest
Territories, not exceeding in the whole the sum of two hundred and fifty thousand
dollars.
2. All sums so advanced to the government of the North-west Territories shall be charged
in an account to be known as ' The North-west Territories Debt Account,' and shall,
in any financial arrangement that may be made in connection with the organization
of a province or provinces in the said territories, be taken into consideration as
a debt owing by the said territories to the Dominion of Canada.—(The Minister of Finance).
The MINISTER OF FINANCE (Hon. W. S. Fielding). This resolution proposes to authorize an advance of a sum,
not exceeding- in the whole $250,000, to the government of the North-west Territories,
from time to time, for the construction of any public works which they may wish to
construct and may deem to be of a class chargeable to capital account. The rapid and
very gratifying increase in the population of the
12307
COMMONS 12308
North-west Territories makes it desirable
that some additional provision should be
made for the carrying on of the government
of that portion of the Dominion. The time
must be close at hand when it will be necessary, not only to revise the financial
arrangements of that portion of our country,
but also to take up the larger question of
granting full powers of local government to
the people of that region. In the past, having regard to the comparatively small population
and the large area over which they
were dispersed, the conditions did not seem
favourable for the establishment of a government and legislature with full powers
of
a province.
The powers granted to the North-west
legislature are, however, quite large ; and,
in very many respects those territories are
to-day exercising the privileges and hearing responsibilities of self-government.
In
some respects, they are not entirely clothed
with the powers of provincial government ;
but I think we all agree that the time is
close at hand when these powers must be
given to them. These powers will not merely convey privileges, but will also impose
upon them some responsibility, and I am
not quite sure that, from a purely financial point of view, they will be benefited
by
establishing provincial autonomy. However, I presume the question is not to be
judged from that point of view alone and
that the people in that country which is
now so rapidly being filled up will desire
ordinary powers of provincial government.
In the meantime, as it is not proposed at
the present session to bring forward a measure to give them full powers of provincial
government, it is proposed that we
should make a more liberal provision for
the management of their financial affairs.
We, therefore, agree to make a very considerable increase in the annual grant and
also to make this special provision having
relation to the opening of a capital account.
If they were established as a province, no
doubt they would have a certain sum of
money placed to their credit, the interest
upon which they would be entitled to receive and the principal of which they could
make use of for public works. Provision
is made in the existing law for any of the
provinces that have capital account to their
credit that, if they desire, they may withdraw an amount for what are called in the
Act local improvements. As a rule, the
provincial government may not be desirous
of withdrawing these sums, because while
they remain to the credit of the province
in the treasury, the province probably obtains a better rate of interest than it could
manage to obtain otherwise. We think it is
well that, during the present session, we
shouId make a more liberal allowance to
the North-west government in the way of
annual grant, and also by giving them additional power, if they wish to exercise it,
by
having a capital account on which they
may draw and which will be a matter of
consideration in any financial arrangement
which may be made hereafter with respect
to organizing a government, or, possibly,
more than one government in these territories. All that is proposed for the present
by this resolution is that power shall be
conferred upon His Excellency the Governor in Council to advance, from time to
time, to the North-west government, if they
so desire, sums of money up to $250,000,
which are to be expended on public works
of a class which may be deemed properly
chargeable to capital. Perhaps, as the two
questions are connected I may call attention to the increases that have been made
in the grants to the North-west Territories.
During recent years very considerable increases have been made, and it is proposed,
in the present year, to make still further increases. There is one general grant given
to the government of the North-west Territories which is classed in our estimates
as
grants for schools, &c., which, practically
is equivalent to a provincial subsidy. There
are some other grants for special purposes
to which I need not more particularly refer ; but this annual grant for schools and
other purposes, I think I may say, stands
in about the position of a provincial subsidy. That grant in 1892 was quite small—
only $40,000. In 1893 it was $198,000 ; in
1894, $199,000; in 1895, $225,000 ; in 1896,
$267,000, which was the figure at which
the grant stood when the present government came into power. In the following
year there appears to have been a slight
falling off, the reason of which I have not
at hand. For the year ending 30th of July,
1897, the grant was $242,000. From that
time it has almost steadily increased. In
1898 the grant was $262,000 ; in 1899, $282,000 ; in 1900, $282,000. In 1901. including
a special grant which was made in consequence of considerable damage suffered
from floods, the grant was increased to
$424,000. In 1902, the grant was $407,000.
In 1903, the year recently closed, the sums
allowed by parliament were found to be
quite insufficient, and, in our supplementary estimates for the year recently voted
in
this House, we gave an additional grant of
$250,000 so that this general grant, which I
have described as being equivalent to a provincial subsidy, stood for the year 1903
at $707,000, as against $267,000 in 1896. For
the coming year, we are proposing to add a
similar sum of $250,000, which will be provided in the supplementary estimates. We
are also making a special grant to the local
government to enable them to carry out a
plan which they had some months ago of
rebuilding two important bridges, one the
Pelly river bridge and the other the Old
Man river bridge. The Pelly river bridge
is estimated to cost $55,000 and the Old
Man river bridge $29,000, or $84,000 for
both. The local authorities came to us
several months ago and represented that
12309 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12310
these were two important structures, they
needed authority to construct them at once,
and they were without financial means as to
do so. They were assured that the government would place them in funds to construct
these works. In the course of negotiations it was at one time proposed that,
these bridges, being of a solid and permanent character, should be made a charge
against capital account, and it was proposed to place a sum to the credit of the
local government on capital account. The
local government objected to that and we
have, on consideration, decided to make this
the cost of these two bridges a special grant
for the year and not make it a charge
against capital account.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. As I
was saying, it was at first proposed as my
hon. friend (Hon. Mr. Haggart) has suggested that we should deduct it. In
some correspondence I had with the premier
of the North-west government, I expressed
the view that as these bridges were of a
permanent character they were a proper
charge against capital account. However,
the North-west government thought that an
ungenerous view to take and, on consideration, we have decided to yield to their representations
and make it a special grant
this year. So, we shall provide for the current year, apart from some ordinary grants
amounting to $90,000 which I do not need
to specialize, and including the special
grants on account of the bridges, $1,046,000,
as against $267,000 which they were receiving only a few years ago when the change
of government occurred. I think it will be
seen from the figures I have read that fair
consideration has been given, from time to
time, to the needs of the North-west Territories, and that we are responding with
fair
liberality to their increasing necessities. We
are proposing therefore, to give them, for
the current year, either for their own general purposes or for special purposes, a
sum
of $1,046,000, and to give them a right to use,
if they wish, a further sum of $250,000. Of
course, if that be not used, there will be no
charge against them, and, if it be used, or
if any portion of it be used, the amount
used will be charged to a capital account,
and, when we come to the question of establishing the financial relations of a new
province or, possibly of more than one province, in the new territory, the matter
of
the $250,000 will be taken into consideration in the adjustment of their debt account.
Mr. MACLEAN. The statement made in
the House by the hon. Minister of Finance
is in the nature of setting the House in
order before an election takes place. I
think that this is a thing that indicates to
us that an election is near at hand more
directly than anything else we have had.
It is also in the nature of an apology on
behalf of the government for having neglected hitherto to erect one or more provinces
in the North-west. I think it is the
feeling of hon. gentlemen on this side that
this should have been done long ago. Certainly, it would have my support and the
support of many hon. gentlemen on this
side if not merely one but more provinces
were erected in the North-west Territories.
Still we are glad to hear that the question
is now to be considered, and that it will be
taken up, as I gather, immediately after the
elections are over. From what the Minister
of Finance has said here to-night, they have
been forced to take up this question, and
in the meantime we are going to do something for the Territories in a financial way,
and later on we are going to erect them into
provinces. Now, I am in favour of the
most liberal kind of treatment to the Northwest. I think they ought to be given a
liberal share of the public domain in that
country, it ought to pass under the exclusive control of the provinces in the same
way that Ontario, Quebec and the lower
provinces are given the Crown Lands. I
hope when this territory comes to be erected into provinces that not only a liberal
financial arrangement will be made with
them, but that they will be given control
of a very considerable portion of the public
domain still held by this government in the
western territories.
Mr. OSLER. Whatever may be the
reason for the generosity of the government,
I thoroughly approve of the proposal to
grant an extra $250,000 to the North-west
Territories. No one who has been in that
country and knows anything about it, can
help being struck with the enormous expense
that must be made there for bridges and
roads. As the country fills up roads must
be laid out and bridges must be built over
the various streams, and these bridges will
be expensive. I think the time has arrived, if it has not passed, when they should
be granted more aid. A very liberal treatment accorded to the North-west will be
approved of by both sides of this House.
Mr. SPROULE. It seems to me this
would be a very proper time for the government to explain why they have refused
provincial autonomy to the North-west Territories. We know the people of the Territories
have applied or it, the application
has been brought to the notice of the government at different times and in different
ways, with a good deal of force. We
found when in that country last fall
that there was a strong consensus of
opinion in favour of it, and the people
regarded their situation as most unfortunate because they were not granted provincial
autonomy. The people out there think
they are very much handicapped in carrying
on the operations of life for the want of
it. Then, why have the government not
12311
COMMONS 12312
considered it ? Are they not prepared to
grant provincial autonomy to the Territories,
and if they are not, what is the reason ?
This grant appears to be in the nature of a
provincial subsidy, and I notice it is to be
charged against them in what is called their
debt account. If it is charged against them
in the way of a debt, is it proposed to charge
them any interest on this debt
Mr. SPROULE. Well, it might be regarded as a debt. I think the government
ought to be prepared to give us some reason why they have been unable to grant
the request of the Territories for provincial
autonomy.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. It is
the great boast of our English system of
government that it is a growth of time,
and that consequently it is not well to do
things too rapidly. Our development should
be like that of British freedom, that ' broadens slowly down from precedent to precedent.'
It is not well to do these things
with a hop, step and a jump. There has
been some development of the principle of
local self-government in the Territories during recent years. Under this present government
amendments have been made to
the legislation respecting the North-west
Territories, which broadened the powers of
the legislature and gave the people a large
measure of responsible government. I
think the time is close at hand when this
government which is always looking after
these things wisely and well, will have to
go further, and still further broaden these
powers and give to that section of the community the larger measure of self-government
which the other provinces enjoy. The
conditions in the North-west Territories have
not been the same as those in the older
provinces in past years. But through the
growth of population and the increase of
settlements they are rapidly assuming those
conditions, and I am quite sure it will be
the pleasure of both sides of this House at
a very early day to extend the powers which
have already been given.
Mr. GILMOUR. I would like to hear
the Finance Minister say by what rules he
considers this allowance a debt. If he considers it a debt, I would like him to say
on what footing, on what basis, it is a debt.
I do not understand just where you are
going to begin to reckon up an account with
the Territories. Certainly I think you ought
to be liberal with the territories. I would
also like to hear some reason given why
autonomy is not granted to them. But,
aside from that, I would like to hear the
Finance Minister state, and put it in the
' Hansard,' put it before all concerned, just
on what basis he is going to begin and
reckon an account between the territories
and the Dominion. It is well that that
should be understood now, so that there will
be no difficulty about it in the future when
we come to settle the account.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. If we
were to-day carrying legislation for conferring full powers of provincial autonomy
on
the North-west Territories, undoubtedly there
would be a sum placed to their credit in
what is called the ' debt account,' just as
is to be found with respect to most of the
other provinces. Instead of waiting for
the moment to introduce legislation creating
provincial autonomy, if we place a portion
of that money to their credit at once, and
charge them no interest upon it, I do not
think we can be held to be imposing a serious burden upon them.
Mr. GILMOUR. I am only asking upon
what basis this is to be considered. If
you pay them all that is due up to this date,
you are not giving them anything now except the interest on this money. So long as
you retain those Territories as wards of the
government, so long will they remain in
your debt. I would like the minister to say
just on what basis he is going to reckon
this as a debt.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. A debt
account does not necesasrily mean that the
balance is against the North-west Territories. In this case the North-west Territories
are to have the debt charged against
them, but they are to pay no interest upon
it, and therefore it becomes no burden
upon them. Just what the precise basis
of the financial arrangement with the Territories shall be when we come to establish
a province or provinces is not a matter upon
which it would be wise to commit ourselves
to-day, but we do realize that, having regard
to the fact that they have no land of their
own and that there are special conditions
with regard to the North-west Territories,
when we come to adjust accounts with them
we will have to place to their credit a certain amount of money in the debt account.
It may not be a debt in the sense that they
will have to pay it. The probability is
that we will have to pay them interest upon
it. My hon. friend is mistaken when he
says that this is all we are doing for the
North-west Territories, because we largely
increase their general grant. We are going to give them a million dollars, as compared
with a little over a quarter of a million seven years ago.
Mr. GILMOUR. I did not say that you
were giving them nothing. I understood
quite well what the hon. Minister of Finance
said, but in view of the fact that you are
establishing what I would consider a debt,
I wished you to make it plain whether or
not you would deduct this when you gave
them provincial autonomy.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I do not
think it would be wise that we should today undertake to settle the precise basis
of
12313 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12314
the financial relations that should be established with the provincial government
if it
should be established next year, as I hope
it will. We had better wait until that time
and hold ourselves to negotiate and determine what the basis shall be. As to the
provinces which have money in what is
called the debt account, instead of paying
interest to the Dominion, the Dominion has
to pay interest to them and it may be so
when we come to adjust this account between the new province or provinces and
the Dominion. What we do is to give the
local government of the North-west Territories now one of the privileges which they
would no doubt have if they had provincial
autonomy, and that is the right to have in
the capital account a sum upon which they
may draw for important public works. If
they do not wish to use it, of course we cannot complain, but our theory is that if
they
undertake any important public structure
which is a matter of permanent improvement they may wish to charge it against
capital account. If we should give provincial autonomy to the North-west Territories
we would have to place further sums at
their credit in some way.
Mr. SPROULE. Is it proposed that when
you finally make a settlement with them
upon the lines of provincial autonomy their
income shall be reduced to the extent of this
loan which we are giving them now ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. That
will have to be a matter of adjustment.
Everything will depend upon the amount
that may be assigned to them. There are
many questions which will have to be considered in the adjustment of the finances
of
the territories. Their position is peculiar.
They do not stand in the same position as
the other provinces of the Dominion which
have lands, mines, forests and other sources
of revenue. We might have to take all that
into consideration and I do not think it
would be wise to undertake to-day to lay
down the precise basis of the financial arrangements which we may have to make
even so early as next year. We place this
sum at their disposal and if they need it
they can use it. If they do not need it we
do not want to force it upon them.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. Last year,
including the sum voted in the supplementary estimates, we gave them $707,974.
Then, in addition there was the sum of 379,000 for special purposes, but I am dealing
with the general grant.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART. The hon. Minister
of Finance states that he is going to give
the North-west Territories a grant of $1,200,000 this year.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. The
grant is a. little over $1,000,000. This $250,
000 is an additional provision, but it stands
in a different relation.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART. I understand from
the hon. minister that independently of the
$250,000 the grant which would be given
to the North-west Territories would be a
little over $1,400,000.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART. That is in excess
of the grant last year nearly $200,000. That
includes the bridges over the Pelly river
and the Macleod river costing $89,000. It
occurs to me that it is a very pertinent question to ask what possible credit can
the
North-west Territories have to the debt account. They can have none whatever. The
hon. Minister of Finance states that this
$250,000 is to be charged against them pending a settlement when they are given autonomy.
I do not see any possible credit that
the North-west Territories can have to the
debt account. The only possible way in
which this $250,000 could be charged would
be upon the per capita allowance of the
province to be deducted at some future
time. The hon. gentleman states that he
does not intend to charge any interest upon
the amount. Does he propose, in giving this
$250,000 to the North-west Territories, to
give them the absolute control of the expenditure of it for any purpose which they
may think proper, or must it be spent in a
certain direction? If the government intend
to direct how it shall be expended we would
like to know how it is proposed to expend
it. I protest that there is no possible credit
to the debt account which the North-west
Territories can have against the Dominion
government upon entering confederation.
They have no expenditure for Dominion
purposes, they have no expenditure upon
railways that I know of in that section of
the country or anything which would be a
credit to the debt account. The only answer to the question of my hon. friend from
East Middlesex (Mr. Gilmour) is that this
$250,000 must be a charge against the per
capita allowance of the territories when
they get autonomy.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon.
friend has undertaken to settle a question
which I was anxious not to settle at the present time and that is as to what shall
be
the financial adjustment between the Dominion and these new provinces. My only
desire is not to commit myself as respects
a single dollar of this amount which we are
voting. I want to be absolutely free when
this question comes up, and I think we all
desire that none of us shall be bound by
anything we may do in the way of granting
temporary aid. In answer to the other question of the hon. gentleman as to whether
the
local government is to have control over the
expenditure of this money the answer, is
practically, yes. But technically there is a
12315
COMMONS 12316
qualification to that. We use here the same
words as are found in the existing laws in
respect to the debt accounts of the other
provinces. Every one of the provinces of
the Dominion which has a sum to its credit
in the debt account, is entitled under
the act to withdraw that money for 'local
improvements.' Those are the words. The
Governor in Council has, in his discretion,
the right to advance this money. Technically he can say that it shall not be advanced
at all, but my hon. friend as an old
cabinet minister knows that practically that
is not so. What I apprehend will happen
will be that the local government will make
application and will say that it desires to
use this money for some useful public work.
Its application will be approved and the expenditure will be entirely under its control
and not under the control of the Dominion
government.
Mr. MACLEAN. The hon. Minister of
Finance spoke of the erection of new provinces. Is the hon. minister, or any member
of the government, prepared to say
whether all of the correspondence which has
passed between those representing the Territories and the members of the government
in connection with the request for the erection of a new province or new provinces
has
been published ?
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I understand that my right hon. friend the Prime
Minister submitted it all to the House a
few weeks ago.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART. I must protest
against the expenditure of $250,000 under
the direction of the Dominion government.
Hon. Mr. HAGGART. The hon. Minister
of Finance states that a request is made for
the money for local improvements by the
local government and that the disposition of
it depends upon the Governor in Council.
Then, the request must be in consonance with
the desires of the Dominion government as
to the expenditure. I much prefer to see
the amount of $250,000 absolutely given to
the North-west Territories to be expended
on local improvements in any manner in
which they see fit.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. We are
using the precise words of the present law
in respect to all the provinces of the
Dominion. If the North-west Territories
had been created into a province this year
under a provincial government the same as
the government of Ontario or the government of any of the other provinces, these
are the precise words which would be used
in regard to the advance of public money
out of capital account. The application has
to come from the local government, and the
Dominion government has the right to re
fuse, I suppose, but practically that is not
the way it operates. The local government
is the judge and we are bound to believe they
expend these moneys for useful purposes,
and unless there is some strong reason,
which I cannot imagine, to refuse the application, it would go as a matter of course.
Mr. OLIVER. The understanding in regard to this debt account which prevails
in the North-west Territories, is perhaps
not the same as has been voiced so far in
this discussion. The idea that has come to
me and others in the west is : that at confederation the original provinces were heavily
involved in debt, and when other provinces
were added to confederation which were not
so involved in debt, they received a credit
from what was called the debt account, to
put them on an equal footing with the
original provinces in respect to the indebtedness of these original provinces. It
it under that head that the territories would
claim a credit at the hands of the Dominion
when the time for provincial organization
comes. Believing that the territories would
be entitled to such a credit under the
fundamental arrangements of confederation,
they consider that they have a right to an
advance on that account, if required and as
required. That debt account is based on
the population of the provinces at the time
each entered confederation, and because of
that there is not that unanimous and urgent demand for provincial organization
in the territories that some of our friends
seem to think. The larger the population
of the territory at the time it enters confederation as a province, the larger the
debt
account in favour of the territories will be,
and therefore the greater the advantage to
the territories, the longer it waits and the
larger its population is.
Mr. SPROULE. Are we to infer that the
territories do not want provincial autonomy,
but that they prefer to remain without it
for years until they get a larger population?
Mr. OLIVER. I do not wish the hon.
member to draw any inference. Speaking
for myself, and for those who think with
me—who I believe constitute the overwhelming majority of the people in the
territories—we believe that it is better to
wait until we can be assured of a more
satisfactory arrangement based upon increased population, than we possibly could
expect to get to-day.
Mr. SPROULE. Then, the argument of
Mr. Haultain in favour of provincial autonomy would seem to be unfounded. I
judged from the correspondence that the
territories were strongly in favour of autonomy.
Mr. SPROULE. I refer to the resolution
passed by the legislature, and the corres
12317 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12318
pondence submitted to strengthen the argument of Premier Haultain.
Mr. OLIVER. The conditions surrounding Premier Haultain's proposition might
perhaps be explained a little more fully.
Premier Haultain proposes provincial autonomy, on the basis of the grants that would
be due to the territories, even on their present population under provincial autonomy,
as compared with grants received a few
years age, under the present system. For
a matter of seven or eight years the subsidy grant to the territories was practically
at a standstill, and at the same time population was increasing, and our responsibilities
were increasing.
Mr. SPROULE. I think that the arrangement made with the territories was, that as
population increased the grant would increase.
Mr. OLIVER. There was no arrangement
with the territories. The grant is a matter
of ordinary vote by parliament from year
to year. Naturally it the grant is not liberal and if it is not advanced in amount
according to increased population and responsibilities the government of the Northwest
Territories falls back at once upon the
rights which it would have were it given.
provincial organization. That was the condition which gave rise to the present demand
(if you may say so) for provincial
autonomy. Mr. Haultain wanted to get the
benefit of the debt account which he would
have on the then existing population and
to get such other grants as properly belong
to a province, believing that he would then
be financially better off than he was under
the system of granting subsidies, which
practically stood still for a number of years.
But since that time, the subsidies have very
largely increased, and particularly so during the present year. The increase of subsidy
changes the position very considerably
in regard to the demand for provincial organization. In my estimation at any rate—
in a country such as the territories, where
the financial needs are very great—the financial question is the chief question. The
obtaining of money with which to carry out
public improvements and to keep educational facilities up to a modern standard,
is the great object which the government
desires to attain, and if it be attained, then
the chief object of local government is attained. And whether it be under the' name
of territorial organization or provincial organization, is of secondary moment. It.
is
fair matter for consideration, whether we
should press an immediate and urgent demand upon this parliament, for provincial
organization, or, with the prospect of still
larger and very rapid increase of population,
whether we should wait until that increase
of population should entitle us to still better terms. The area under the jurisdiction
of the territorial government covers by far
the greater part of the agricultural area of
the Dominion. If that great agricultural area
—which in all human probability before very
long will be quite fully populated—is organized to-day on a provincial basis, with
the debt account according to the present
population, and receiving consideration generally according to the requirements of
the
present population ; it stands to reason that
inside of a very few years, the concessions
that have been made will be found far further behind the actual requirements than
they have ever been since we organized in
the territories a local government.
Mr. MACLEAN. Then the ' better terms '
principle begins to act.
Mr. OLIVER. That is what it amounts
to ; and you will find that in Mr: Haultain's
correspondence he suggests that there shall
be provincial organization at the present
time, on the basis of present population and
a readjustment every five years afterwards
according to population. That is not in accord with the principles of confederation,
but if parliament will concede it, why, I
will be willing to go in for provincial organization at once.
Mr. SPROULE. Does the hon. gentleman
not think that, since the government are not
prepared to give this by way of subsidy
upon any determined basis, it would be
better to take into consideration the exceptional needs of the territories from year
to year and grant a larger subsidy until
such time as we can give them all full
provincial autonomy or establish some account with them on a proper basis ?
Mr. OLIVER. That. is exactly my position. I think that as long as this parliament
will deal liberally with the North-west Territories while they are in their present
formative condition and while their population is increasing as rapidly as it is,
and
will adequately recognize that increase of
population, it will be better for the territories, financially, to remain under the
present condition rather than to be bound by
any definite financial arrangement that will
in future years be entirely inadequate and
will cause the territories to come here again
and again for better terms.
Mr. SPROULE. I mean that instead of
giving this money by way of loan, we should
take into account the very exceptional needs
of the territories and give a subsidy to suit
their requirements from time to time, not to
give it in the shape of a loan, which would
be regarded as a debt.
Mr. OLIVER. As a member for the territories I have nothing to urge in opposition
to the plan suggested. If parliament will
vote this year the $1,046,000 suggested by
the Minister of Finance and also the sum of
$250,000 for current expenses, I shall certainly vote for it and be very glad to sup
12319
COMMONS 12320
port it, but I may say that such generosity
on the part of parliament is a surprise to
me, and I think that Premier Haultain and
his government, if they are at all inclined
to be fleshy, would be very likely to be
stricken with apoplexy at such an exhibition of generosity as compared with the action
of parliament on previous occasions.
However, if hon. gentlemen will move that
I will be very glad to support them and
if they would prefer to make it $500,000 instead of $250,000, I will support that.
Mr. GILMOUR. Does the hon. gentleman
(Mr. Oliver) consider that up to the present
time the territories have received all they
were entitled to in grants and that this
$250,000 should now he considered as an
advance to them ?
Mr. OLIVER. No, I do not think they
have been getting as much as they are entitled to, but I certainly think the grant
this year is fairly liberal. The House will
understand that as one of the members representing the North-west Territories, who
have been continually accused since we have
been in the House of demanding too much
from parliament, I have felt some diffidence
in pressing demands for any serious advance of money. I certainly felt that a grant
of $1,000,000 in the present year was a very
fair allowance and I was glad to accept
it and also to accept the advance of $250,000 for permanent improvements. But if
the opinion of the House has changed, if it
has become generous in these matters, 1
can assure the House that the North-west
Territories government can expend a larger
amount, and if hon. members are desirous
of voting this $250,000 as an addition to
the yearly grant I will be glad to support
them in that and, as I said, if they will
make it $500,000 I will still support them
and I can assure them that the money will
be well expended.
Mr. CLANCY. I fully concur in all that
has been said of the necessity of increasing
the grant to the North-west Territories. It
I had any fault to find it would be that the
government have not gone quite so far in
this matter as the present needs of that
growing country require. I am not much
impressed with the reasons given by the
hon. member for Alberta (Mr. Oliver) for
delaying the granting of provincial autonomy. Speaking for myself I do not believe
that any party in power can afford to
drive hard and fast bargains with the
newer provinces to be made in the Northwest Territories. A cheese-paring policy
would be the most mistaken policy that any
government could undertake ; it would simply mean a recurrence of what we have
had in the past under less stringent conditions in regard to the provinces that today
constitute confederation, a constant
pressure for additional subsidies. When
provincial autonomy is granted to the ter
ritories we must expect to make ample provision for the support of a government
in these territories. This may be a proper
time to ask the Minister of Finance as to
the correctness of the report that is current in the leading organs supporting the
government, that for the purpose of aiding
in the construction of the Grand Trunk
Pacific Railway or for other purposes of a
similar kind, it is the purpose of the government to set aside a quantity of land
in the
North-west Territories to be sold for these
purposes ? I do not think that this parliament or the people of the North-west Territories
or of the rest of this Dominion would
view with greater favour the taking of any
portion of land in the North-west Territories for that purpose than the taking of
land
in the older provinces, if it were possible,
and the setting aside of such land for the
construction of railways or for other purposes. If we are to aid railways we must
aid them from other sources of revenue
and if the people of the North-west Territories should ask for provincial autonomy
to-morrow I do not believe that we should
drive such a hard bargain as the hon. member for Alberta has suggested : we should
deal with them on very liberal and generous terms and must remember that what
might be a generous appropriation to-day
might be entirely inadequate in a few
years owing to the great growth that is taking place in that country. I would like
to
ask the Minister of Finance if there is
any foundation for that report.
Mr. CLANCY. I am aware that there is
no legislation of that character ; I ask the
hon. gentleman if that is the policy of the
government.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. The
policy of the government for the present
is as I have stated it ; I think the hon.
gentleman will have to let the future take
care of itself.
Mr. CLANCY. It is a deplorable fact
that we have to do that both as to information and as to everything else.
Mr. BOYD. I am also pleased with the
increase that has taken place in the appropriation for the North-west Territories,
and
I would be much better pleased if the government had intimated that they proposed
giving the people of the North-west Territories the provincial power which they are
seeking. I am sure that in saying that I
express the opinion of the vast majority of
the people of the North-west Territories. I
am sure that I am expressing the opinion or
the majority of the people of the territories
when I say so. I do not think that it is
pleasant to the people of the North-west
Territories, in fact I know it is humiliating
to them, to have to come here annually as
12321 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12322
beggars seeking for better terms and finding themselves in the position in which they
were last year, when their assembly had to
adjourn for want of funds. They had to
go back to their homes until they could procure money to carry on public business.
They have been appealing for provincial
autonomy. Their population has increased,
as has been pointed out by the Minister of
Justice, sufficiently to entitle them to ten
representatives in this House and four senators. A territory of that importance and
extent should receive that recognition from
this parliament for which they are asking
and which they deserve, and that is the
power to manage their own affairs. The
difficulty pointed out by the hon. member
for Alberta regarding population and so on,
is merely a matter of readjustment, which
may be made every two, or three, or five
years, and I cannot see why the government are holding back in that respect. We
know well enough the reason why they are
not dealing with this question. It is because they fear that ghost in the closet—
the school question—which they will have to
deal with whenever they give the territories provincial autonomy, but the longer
they leave it off the worse it will be.
Mr. BOYD. Because there will be more
people in the territories, and the greater the
number the more difficult will become the
settlement of that question.
Mr. DAVIS. We have separate schools in
the territories now.
Mr. BOYD. What they have and what
they will get according to the arrangements
made in this parliament are entirely different questions. I have been amongst
these people, I have been at their public
meetings, I have heard their premier give
expression to his views at a very large
gathering, and in that gathering there was
almost a unanimous opinion in favour of
provincial autonomy. What else could we
expect from a body of Canadians and
British people, numbering some 160,000 or
200,000, but that they would want their own
provincial autonomy, the power to make
their own laws and manage their own
affairs.
Mr. DAVIS. How much more power
would they have under provincial autonomy
than they have now ?
The PRIME MINISTER. There is an old
saying, ' Save me from my friends,' and
the people of the North-west Territories will
have no reason to thank the hon. gentleman,
for if we were to adopt his suggestion they
would be worse off than they are to-day.
The PRIME MINISTER. The hon. gentleman has said that the North-west Territories have a population large
enough to
entitle them to ten members. He must know that such is not the case. He ought to know
that their population, as shown by
the last census, would not entitle them to
ten members. We are giving them ten
members, not because they are entitled to
that number, but as an act of grace. If
we were to follow my hon. friend's suggestion, and give them a provincial organization,
they would have to come under the
laws that regulate the provinces and be
given a representation according to population, and not by grace, as they are under
this Bill. If the territories want to come in
as a province, my hon. friend would be the
first to say that it would be only fair that
they should have the representation to
which they would be entitled as a province.
But we thought it better to keep them as
territories and give them representation this
year of ten members, because their population is increasing, and will no doubt soon
reach the figures which will entitle them to
that number. My hon. friend has spoken
on the school question, but I doubt whether,
in view of the school taxation, it would be
advisable for the territories to become a
province, because they would then lose the
power they now have of taxing the railway
lands of the Canadian Pacific Railway for
their schools. The question is not so simple
as my hon. friend would make us believe
it is. How many provinces will there be—
one or two ? On that point the people of the
territories are not unanimous. A member
of some prominence in the legislature has
withdrawn his confidence from Mr. Haultain's government, because it is in favour of
one province, whereas he and others think
there ought to be two provinces. For these
reasons, we had better reflect coolly and
seriously before we make the final jump.
My hon. friend says it is humiliating for
the territories to come here year after year
and ask for better terms. Well, they are
not coming for better terms, but for an allowance, which parliament has given them.
and which must increase as their population
increases. But when they are organized as
a province, with all the powers of a province, they will have to take all the responsibilities
of a province ; and whether their
population increases or not, their allowance
must remain the same, and we shall have probably the spectacle, which we have seen
in
other provinces, notably Manitoba, Which
was perhaps organized as a province prematurely—we shall see them year after year
coming for better terms. It would be far
better not to move too hastily. What are
the powers which the territories have not
today which they would have as a province ? If I mistake not, speaking at first
blush, the legislature of the territories has
all the powers enjoyed by a province, with
the exception of the power to borrow money.
My hon. friend has therefore no reason to
get warm and say that they are kept as
slaves, and are not free British subjects.
12323
COMMONS 12324
They are as free as any one of us, but have
not the power to borrow money, and perhaps it is as well to keep that power in
abeyance in a young country like that.
Mr. MACLEAN. Here is another Liberal doctrine abandoned, the Liberal doctrine
of self-government. Now the doctrine
preached is that of arbitrary government,
the greater government ruling the smaller
one. So, one by one, all these pledges and
professions of the past are going by the
board. There is a great difference between
provincial autonomy and the kind of government they have in the North-west Territories
to-day. The people of the Northwest Territories feel that difference. The
difference is that the provinces have something by right, but the people of the Northwest
must come here and take what is given
to them by what the Prime Minister calls
an act of grace or benevolence. The people of the North-west do not wish to be in
the position of suppliants seeking favours;
they wish their rights, and they wish, above
all, the sacred right, which Liberals say
they fought for so many years in this country, the right of self-government. I appreciate
this demand of theirs; I know that the
people of the North-west do wish to be
erected into a province and have an endowment and have the status and the rights of
the people of the rest of Canada. Here
we have an autocratic Czar telling them:
Oh, leave yourselves in our hands; forget
all about self-government and we will look
after you. That is not Liberal doctrine,
that is not what the Canadian people expect. There are reasons why the provinces
have not been created. But an election is
near at hand, and these hon. gentlemen feel
constrained to make an apology for their
neglect to erect these territories into provinces.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). From the remarks which have fallen from the lips of
the Prime Minister (Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid
Laurier), I think the North-west Territories
need not expect self-government in the near
future. The remarks of the Minister of
Finance (Hon. Mr. Fielding) left a different
impression upon the House. That hon.
gentleman, in the vernacular of the hon.
member for East York (Mr. Maclean) attempted to jolly the people along, holding
out the hope of the early establishment of
provincial autonomy. But the Prime Minister adduced arguments that were strong,
no doubt, from his point of view, that the
North-west Territories should not be granted local self—government for many years
to come.
Mr. ROCHE (Marquette). The Prime
Minister says, 'hear, hear,' so I am not misstating the case from his viewpoint. One
reason the hon. gentleman states why they
should not be given local autonomy is the
fact that he could not satisfy the people,
because they are divided among themselves
as to the number of provinces into which
the territories should be divided, one or
more. That need not stand long in the
way; the government can soon settle it.
Let them give the people a plebiscite, as
they did on the liquor question, though I
hope not with a similar result. Let the
people decide this matter. This will be an
easy way of settling the question whether
there shall be one province only or more
than one. The Prime Minister says also
that they have almost every liberty that
they would have if provincial autonomy
were conferred upon them, all except the
one of borrowing money, and that it was a
good thing not to trust them lest they
should rush into debt to their own injury.
I think the people of the North-west Territories are as well able to govern themselves
as the people of the Dominion are. They
are among the most intelligent people of
Canada. They are largely from eastern
Canada, and eulogies have been heaped upon
Mr. Haultain's government by people in this
House and elsewhere for the way it is managing the affairs of the territories. So,
no valid reason can be given on that account.
It was a rather indefinite reply given by
the Finance Minister to the hon. member
for Bothwell (Mr. Clancy) as to whether
they were going to set aside the land or
sell the lands and set aside the funds, to
pay for the Grand Trunk Pacific. If I
mistake not, the Minister of the Interior
(Hon. Mr. Sifton) stated that this latter was
the intention. We have heard a great
deal from the government to the effect
that we are giving no land grant to this
railway. But what is the difference if
we are going to sell the lands and hand
the proceeds over for the construction
of the railway line ? Fifty millions
of acres of land the Minister of the Interior estimated would be released by his
arrangement with the Canadian Pacific Railway. Putting it at $3 per acre. which is
a very low estimate, that would mean $150,000,000 to go into a sinking fund to construct
a line of railway that the Prime
Minister says is only going to cost as $13,000,000. So, I think the Finance Minister
was not so candid as he might have been
in answering the hon. member for Bothwell.
As a western man, I am in favour of granting the territories powers of local self-government.
The influx of population into
that country is going to throw heavy liabilities upon the territorial exchequer to
keep
pace with the requirements of the country.
The education of these new-comers must
be looked after. And the territories have
no local revenue except the small tax upon
the land for school purposes. Thus. they
are dependent entirely upon votes of this
parliament to keep up improvements. I
believe that in some years what is spent for
public works and education has more than
12325 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12326
eaten up the grants of this parliament.
Like the hon. member for South Lanark
(Hon. Mr. Haggart) I would feel like acting
a little more liberally with the territories,
and would hand over this $250,000 to the
territorial government rather than place
them in debt so that when autonomy is
given them they will find the Dominion of
Canada is already their creditor to a large
extent. I approve the increased grant. I
know that it is necessary in order to keep
up roads, bridges, schools, and other requirements of a growing country, and I am
much
more in favour of granting this $250,000 outright than by letting it stand as a debt
against the territories.
Mr. BLAIN. On the question of whether the people of the North-west Territories
are in favour of provincial autonomy or not,
I wish to quote a few words of the hon.
member for West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott)
last year :
But I believe I express the opinion of a very
large majority of the people when I say that
the conditions have now reached a stage when
it would be advantageous to those people as
well as to the entire Dominion, to have this
question settled without further loss of time.
Some hon. members may be aware of the fact
that within the past two weeks the question
has been debated in the local legislature at
Regina, and by a vote of 23 to 7, I think, in a
House of 31 members, it was decided that it was
a matter of regret that this question had not
been taken up and an endeavour made to settle
it this present year.
One other quotation from the hon. gentleman :
I said that I believed the time had come when
the question of giving the territories provincial
rights should be taken up and dealt with. As
far as I am concerned, I believe that the people
in the territories in genenal are ready to accept
provincial autonomy. Of course they are not
unanimous, and I think that it the powers at
Ottawa wait until they are, they will wait
until Kingdom come, because neither on that
or any other question will the people of so
large an area ever entertain one opinion. It
is a fact, as has been stated by my hon. friend
opposite, that the population of the territories
now is vastly larger than was that of Manitoba
when that part of the country was formed into
a province.
That is the statement of a gentleman
who, I think, knows very much more about
it than I do. It seems to me clear that
the people of the North-west Territories are
in favour of provincial autonomy.
Mr. OLIVER. There seems to be some
misunderstanding as to what the people of
the North-west Territories, through their
legislature, were asking for. It is held out
to the House that we were asking for provincial autonomy, and the idea is thereby
conveyed that we were asking for it on the
same terms as it is enjoyed by the other
provinces. I wish to say that the Northwest legislature is not asking for provincial
autonomy on the same terms as it has been
received by the other provinces. It is asking
for provincial autonomy subject to two conditions radically different from those on
which it has been received by the others.
One condition is that the per capita allowance shall be revised on the basis of population
arrived at by a census taken every
five years; and the other is that the debt
account shall be revised at the end of the
ten-year census. Now it is an essential principle of provincial organization throughout
the Dominion that the per capita allowance
on population remains the same from the
entrance of the province into confederation,
and that the debt account remains the same.
Therefore when the territories ask for provincial organization they are asking for
it
on radically different terms from those on
which the other provinces have received it.
When hon. members are so ready to grant
provincial organization, it will be interesting to know whether they are willing to
grant it on those terms. Those are the
terms upon which it is asked, and the inference is that it would not be acceptable
on any other terms, and circumstances being as they are, I take the liberty of saying
that it would not be acceptable on other
terms, terms which did not provide for a
revision of these accounts at reasonable
periods.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. I draw attention to the fact that we are out of order.
We are discussing a question that is really
outside of the resolution when We are discussing the propriety of organizing the territories
into provinces. That is not the
isa
point in the resolution, and I think we had
better defer that question.
Mr. BARKER. We have proceeded so
far upon that subject that it would be interesting to hear from the hon. member for
West Assiniboia (Mr. Scott) what has induced him to change his opinion.
Mr. SCOTT. The member for West
Assiniboia has expressed no changed opinion.
Mr. BOYD. I think when the discussion
has reached this point and when certain
statements have been made—
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. There will be
another opportunity for discussing the question of provincial autonomy. That is not
in the resolution.
Mr. CLANCY. I think my hon. friend
from Macdonald (Mr. Boyd) desires to discuss the resolution.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. If he intends
to discuss the propriety of giving $250,000
to the North-west Territories, and confines
himself to that, he will be perfectly in order.
Mr. BOYD. I merely wish to answer a
couple of questions that havebeen brought
to the attention of the House by the prem
12327
COMMONS 12328
ier, but as you have decided that I am out
of order, I will take another opportunity.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. If the hon.
gentleman goes on and makes another
speech, then another hon. member will want
to answer him, and I think we had better
stop here. Carried.
Mr. HENDERSON. I desire to discuss
the resolution. But before doing so, I wish
to enter a protest against the chairman
continually calling ' carried ' without putting
the motion. I think it is proper that the
members of the House should in every instance have a timely intimation that the
chairman is going to put the question, by
asking the committee plainly whether they
are in favour of this resolution or not.
Mr. DEPUTY SPEAKER. The hon. gentleman is out of order. He rose to say he
was going to speak to the resolution, and he
is actually speaking to the chairman. In
submitting motions in committee, I say ' Is
this carried ' ? 'I do not say ' Carried ' but
' Is it carried.'
Mr. HENDERSON. Well, the only word
we have heard is ' carried.' However, I am
going to deal with the resolution. I think
we are making a mistake in creating a debt
against the territories before we give them
autonomy. I am very sorry indeed. if we
are going to proceed as a parliament next
year to organize those large territories into
one or more provinces, that we shall be
compelled to sit down and adjust a debt account. I think it is better to proceed along
the lines we have been following in the
past, giving the territories what we consider
fairly and reasonably sufficient for their
purposes. But by no means let us raise up
a debt account against them, which will be
standing in the way and perhaps be a
troublesome matter to settle when we come
to arrange for the political autonomy of the
provinces. It will make no difference to the
Dominion. We are getting no interest, and
I do not suppose for a moment that when the
adjustment is made even the principal will
ever be asked for. If we treat the territories respectfully, treat them handsomely,
and keep them in good humour, I think we
will make better terms with them when we
come to settle all these questions. But
by no means let us do something that will
only prove a vexed question hereafter. Now
with regard to the other question, I have
only to say that the sooner we give these
provinces political autonomy the better, for
then we do away with these annual grants.
As at present they are regarded as wards
of the Dominion, and I think the sooner we
close this account by bringing about a
different arrangement for the government of
these provinces and doing away with these
annual grants, the better for the Dominion
and the better for the territories. I would
advise the Finance Minister to create no
debt account, because if we do anything
of that kind we may have a troublesome
matter to settle when we come to erect
them into provinces.
Mr. BOYD. Has the territorial government been consulted regarding this $250,000 and has it
consented to its being placed in the way the hon. minister proposes ?
that is by adding it to the debt and making it a matter of readjustment in connection
with its account in the future.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. The correspondence on the subject was brought
down some time ago. I think perhaps I
would not be justified in saying that the
territorial government consented. Really,
it was unnecessary to ask their consent inasmuch as this is not a matter of obligation
upon them at all. If the territorial
government do not wish to avail themselves
of the privileges of this Act they need not
do so. Therefore, as we are not imposing
any obligation upon them, we did not deem
it necessary to obtain their consent. I
think, perhaps, the territorial government
would be pleased to have as large a grant
as the government would give and that
they would prefer to have this in the form
of a grant and not something to be charged to the debt account.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. No, but
the territorial government for many years
applied not only to this government. but
to the former government asking for a
larger grant. They always err on the side
of liberality in asking, and I think our responses have not been less generous—in
fact, they are inuch more generous—than
they have been under our predecessors.
But, having represented their needs to us,
we have to some extent exercised our own
discretion as to the various methods by
which we could meet their needs. I do
not wish to say that the territorial government have requested that this method shall
be adopted, but I think the territorial government will find this arrangement useful
to them. If they do not need this money
it will not be pressed on them and no harm
is done.
Mr. SPROULE. I understood the hon.
minister to specify two items in regard
to which it was represented as being necessary that an expenditure should be made.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. As respects these two particular items they did
apply some months ago and we have decided by Order in Council that we shall recommend
parliament to make provision for these
two works. We are proposing in the supplementary estimates to make that provision,
not as a charge against this grant, but
out of the ordinary grant for the current
year. The government of the North-west
Territories applied for these special appro
12329 SEPTEMBER 24, 1903 12330
priations, but they did not ask for a general credit such as we now propose.
Mr. GILMOUR. I hope the hon. Minister of Finance will consider the propriety of continuing the
grant. That country is being settled far and wide. It is quite different from any
other portion of Canada. Bridges have to be built. Of late years bridges have been
swept away as quickly as they have been built. In view of the extraordinary circumstances
prevailing there I hope the hon. Minister of Finance will consider the propriety of
continuing the grant rather than of charging these advances to the debt account. This
plan which he proposes may cause a misunderstanding in the future in view of the fact
that there are no specified terms upon which this debt is to be created.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. We are not ungenerous. We give them a grant this year, about four times as much
as it was when we came into office.
Mr. GILMOUR. I do not say that you have been ungenerous. I do say that you are creating a debt
and they must have need of the money or you would not be giving them an opportunity
of borrowing it. One of the worst things connected with giving them autonomy in my
opinion is that they would be free to create debts.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. My hon. friend has touched the serious objection to autonomy. Still there are different
kinds of debts. When you say that the matter is to be subject to adjustment in the
debt account, it does not absolutely decide on which side the debt shall be. In my
province we have $1,000,000 in the debt account, but instead of being a burden on
the province the Dominion has to pay interest upon it. I do not want to make any dangerous
admissions as to what will be the case in regard to the North-west Territories, because,
having responsibility, it devolves upon me to speak with reserve, but when the time
comes to adjust the debt account it does not follow that it will be charged against
the Territories.
Mr. HENDERSON. Although it may be a question as to which party the debt will be charged against
there is no question about the $250,000 referred to in this resolution, because the
resolution says :
All sums so advanced to the government of the North-west Territories shall be charged
in an account to be known as ' The North-west Territories Debt Account.' and shall,
in any financial arrangement that may be made in connection with the organization
of a province or provinces in the said territories, be taken
into consideration as a debt owing by the said territories to the Dominion of Canada.
This will be owing by the territories. That is what I object to. I think we should
leave them in the position in which they are now as we have been satisfying the territories
very well until we are prepared to make a different arrangement with them which will
not be, perhaps, beyond twelve months, according to the Minister of Finance. It would
be a pity to create a debt or anything that could be called a debt because it might
lead to a dispute when the settlement is being brought about. We are told that they
have not been consulted about this, that they have not asked for this money and they
may not ask for it. I think perhaps they may be independent enough not to ask for
it, because I believe it is their right to have it and it should not have been charged
to them as a debt to be held up before them one or two years hence when we come to
finally arrange with them.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE. I am afraid I have not been able to make myself clear. Suppose when the adjustment
of accounts takes place between the new province and the Dominion it should be found
that there was—I do not like to name the amount—a million dollars to be placed at
the credit of the North-west Territories in the debt account. The only difference
between the situation then and now is that instead of waiting for the event and placing
the money to their credit next year we are giving them the right to draw upon it in
advance and it then has to be adjusted in connection with the general arrangement
of the farmers of the province.
Mr. HENDERSON. Does the hon. Minister of Finance expect that when they are organized into a province
in that way, and when they are supposed to get a credit of $1,000,000 they will only
get three-quarters of a million that it will be satisfactory to them ? I do not think
it should be so. I suggest that the hon. Minister of Finance drop the matter and bring
it up again when he gives them autonomy.
Resolution reported, read the first and second times, and agreed to.
The MINISTER OF FINANCE moved for leave to introduce Bill (No. 256) to provide for advances to the government
of the North-west Territories.
Motion agreed to, and Bill read the first time.
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