WEDNESDAY, 16th MARCH, 1870.
Committee sat at a quarter-past one.
"4. The Dominion shall guarantee Interest at the rate of 5 per centum per annum on
"such sum, not exceeding £100,000, as may he required for the construction of a first-class
" Graving Dock at Esquimalt."
He said :—It is pretty generally known that a company was started for the construction
of a Graving Dock at Esquimalt, and that negotiations with that object in view had
taken
place under a former administration; but although both the Admirals and Governor Seymour
had reported in favour of it, the thing had fallen through. owing to the inability
of the company
to obtain the necessary funds. They were, only able to get a small loan in aid from
the
Admiralty. The Dominion guarantee of 5 per cent. on £100,000 sterling, with a prospect
of
ultimate profits from the undertaking itself, will, it is believed, secure the whole
amount of
capital required, which has been variously estimated ; but from preliminary surveys
and investigations which have been made, the sum of £100,000 is deemed sufficient,
and there
is little
doubt that if a company can get a guarantee for that amount, they can carry out the
undertaking on the largest practicable scale. I am aware that some opposition has
been
expressed
to the locality ; but it is to be supported on general grounds. It will be general
to the whole
Colony. £100,000 cannot be spent in any part of the Colony without benefiting the
rest of
it. The Navy are at Esquimalt. Esquimalt is the first port which ocean ships reach
when
they want repair. and the last point they leave when they receive sailing orders.
Captain
Richards, and all the Admiral from first to last, have reported in favour of Esquimalt
for a
dock. Without Admiralty patronage and aid the thing could not succeed. Another advantage
in a dock would be, that it would enable us to utilize our great white elephant, the
dredger.
As to any opposition to the locality for Burrard Inlet and New Westminster, though
as much
interested as any Hon. Member round this Board in those places, I must say that they
already
have the larger share of benefit from the terms ; for in my opinion the Overland Railway
must
follow down the main artery of the Colony. Fraser River. and have its terminus either
at New
Westminster or Burrard Inlet. Therefore, on public grounds, and because I believe
that it will
be a public benefit. I support the establishment of a Graving Dock at Esquimalt.
The Hon. MR. HOLBROOK—Sir, I rise to oppose this clause,
because I deem it too sectional; all sectional views should be set aside. 1
think the locality should certainly be left out, and the question decided
hereafter. I have no objection to getting all the money we can from Canada.
but I am not sure that there is any present necessity for a dock, I believe that
for some time to come it will be cheaper to send ships to San Francisco.
What is wanted is
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
69 one of Clarke's Patent Slips. We shall, before long, have
plenty of ships at Burrard Inlet, and when the community requires it we
shall have plenty of private parties ready to come forward to construct
them. Both at Burrard Inlet and New Westminster there is so great a rise and
fall in the tide that they would be good places. I have been asked to support the
substitution of Burrard Inlet for Esquimalt in the terms, but I will not do
so ; I would prefer striking out the name altogether. We ought, I say, to
let go sectional ideas. and go in for the public good.
Hon. MR. HUMPHREYS said:—Sir, I am at a loss to understand
any opposition to this clause. Any such guarantee, if it lead to the
expenditure of so much money in any part of the Colony, will be an advantage
to the whole community. It is an easily understood benefit. It will not, in
my opinion, make much difference where it is built ; perhaps it would be better
to leave the selection of the locality to a Committee, who might indicate to
the Canadian Government the best locality. I am of opinion that we want a
Graving Dock ; we don't want ships to go to San Francisco.
Hon. MR. ROBSON, Member for New Westminster, said:—I may,
perhaps, be expected to oppose this clause, and ask for New Westminster to
be inserted. but I shall not do so. I have no sectiona1 feelings in
supporting Confederation. I think the word Esquimalt is perfectly harmless,
although, like my Hon. friend (Mr. Holbrook), I should have preferred that no
locality had been named. I do not think that naming the spot will, of
itself, decide the question. The Dock will, no doubt, be built in the most
suitable place. As the Word is in, let it remain.
Hon. MR. WOOD said:—Sir, I agree with what has fallen from
Hon. Members who object to the naming of the locality, and I shall move that
the word "Esquimalt" be struck out, and the words "such place as the
Dominion Government shall appoint" be inserted. I desire, if we are to have
this organic change, that we should be free of sectional and local feelings
of irritation The naming of Esquimalt as the locality for the Dock seems to me to
be an endeavour to purchase the good-will of Victoria, whose population is
known to be anti- confederate ["No, no," from
Mr. DeCosmos]
Hon. MR. WOOD —of
Victoria, which stood the test of Confederation at the last
election, and whose Members sit here pledged against Confederation. This is
bidding for the favour of the Victoria constituency. ["No, no," from
Hons.
Attorney-General and
Chief Commissioner.]
Hon. MR. WOOD I judge of the effect which it is
likely to have upon others by the effect it has upon me. I own some small
portion of land at Esquimalt, at Constance Cove, near the probable site of
the Docks, and that, I confess, has a softening effect upon me ; and though
I do not allow it to influence my vote, it does influence my mind. [Laughter.]
Confederation, as the Hon. Member for Victoria (Mr. Helmcken)
has said, means a Railway, Docks, and money ; it means to each person the
possibility of getting $1,000 at the end of two years, or $100 a month in
rents. I do not believe that these terms will be submitted to, and if the
inducements are taken away, I say the people will not have Confederation. If they
do accept it under the inducement of material benefits, I fear that we shall
very shortly see a strong feeling of reaction. Why should we name Esquimalt?
What right have we to do so, if it is not intended to have effect on the
Victorian interest? Why not leave it open? If Esquimalt is named, it seems
to me to tie down the Dominion Government to a locality of which they may
not approve, and may be disadvantageous to the negotiation. The more that is
left to the Dominion Government, the better is the chance of carrying out the
negotiations successfully.
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is
much to be regretted that the Hon. Mr. Wood has attributed not very
creditable motives to the Government. [" Hear, hear."] I am sorry to have to
say so. I am sorry I cannot congratulate him on statesmanlike qualities when
he says he might have been influenced. I have never taken this view. I
believe the influence of a vote never occurred to any Member of the Executive
Council. I protest against such insinuations. I congratulate the Hon. Member
for New Westminster upon the course he has taken, and on his support of: the
Government without reference to any sectional views. I feel bound to explain
why Esquimalt has been named by the Government. The main object in asking
for a Graving Dock there is to secure the headquarters of the Navy on the
Pacific Coast within the Colony. When you come to remember that Esquimalt is
the Naval Station, and has been for years, and when you come to consider
70
CONFEDERATION DEBATE. that assistance is offered by the
Imperial Government, it will not be difficult to discern that there was
reason on our side. I could give you good commercial reasons, but it is sufficient
to say that the Government named Esquimalt especially with a view to the
retention of the Fleet. Both the late Admiral and the late Governor agreed
in reporting in favour of Esquimalt. We should, therefore, have been remiss
in not pointing it out. I think it hard that the Government should be
twitted with the intention of catching votes. [" Hear, hear," from
Mr.
DeCosmos.]
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER I scout the idea. There is an Imperial Act, which only allows the
Admiralty to lend a limited sum to Colonial Docks—the Act, of 28 and 29 Victoria,
Cap. 206. This Act allows a loan of £20,000 from the Admiralty upon certain
terms; it is a loan of so much money that is contemplated, and not a
guarantee of interest. Last year I stated to this Council that the Admiralty
had offered to lend £20,000, at 4 per cent. The Company did not think it
sufficient inducement. We hope to get Imperial assistance still; that is one
reason for the locality being named. I stand here to say that Esquimalt is
the place. I am surprised that a Member from the Mainland should bring an
accusation of sectional proclivities against the Government in this matter,
for the Railway will specially benefit the Mainland. I believe and hope it
will follow down the Valley of the Fraser, and immediately benefit the district
from which the Hon. Member comes. Fraser River is the main artery and the
probable course of the Railway. I did not, therefore. expect to hear of any
sectional prejudice in the Resolutions from any Member from the Mainland,
when, if there is any immediate benefit to any special locality, it will be
to the Mainland of British Columbia.
Hon. Mr. RING, Member for Nanaimo, said :—Sir, I am prepared
to support the Government upon this clause. Why should we set
ourselves up in opposition to the opinion of the successive Admirals who
have been upon this station, and who can have no prejudices? I think it is a
waste of public time to impute motives. Esquimalt has been pronounced by
engineers to be the proper place. I am not one of those who, like certain Hon.
Members here, would constantly "pin their conscience on their sleeves for
daws to peck at." Such motives as are suggested could never have entered
into the minds of the Executive. They have been repelled by the Hon. Chief
Commissioner, and why should we be accused of giving personal votes?
Hon. Mr. ROBSON—It seems like such an imputation. I think the
Hon. Member should withdraw his motion. Consider how such a principle as
that suggested by the Hon. Mr. Wood would work. It in effect amounts to
this: "Because you have a local interest, you must refrain from supporting
by your vote what you conscientiously approve of as beneficial to the
community."
Hon. Mr. WOOD—I must correct my Hon. friend (Mr. Ring). I do
not attribute personal motives in any improper sense; but I say, is there a
butcher, or baker, or any other man, who will, in these days of pressure,
fail to vote as his pocket will be influenced? The material benefit to the
individual is an influence at all elections, and rightly so. I can see, in my
mind's eye, banners floating at the next general election, and can imagine
placards posted with the inscription in the largest type: "Vote for DeCosmos
and the Esquimalt Dock." This object may not be intentional, but yet can it
be otherwise? What is it? Intending without intending? I deny that I impure
any dishonest motive in the Executive, but it is clear that the Dock at
Esquinialt will influence many votes, and I confess I gave them credit for
foreseeing so obvious a consequence.
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—I say this, Sir, that if any such
motives had guided the Executive Council; if any considerations, such as
have been suggested, had swayed them; if the object had been a different
one, we could have prepared a much more palatable dish; we could have shown
you pecuniary advantages. If we had had the intention to get votes, we could
have framed the Resolutions very differently. But they were framed with no such
views. It was the intention of the Government to prepare terms on a fair and
proper basis to be submitted to the people.
Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN—As a Member of the Executive Council, Sir,
I confess that I was pleased to see Esquimalt mentioned as the site for the
Docks. I will meet the Hon. Mr. Wood on this isue, and say that supposing
this is put in for the sake of gaining the vote of the Victoria people, what
is Confederation? Confederation moans union to benefit every part of the
Colony. To follow out the Hon. Member's reasoning, there should have been no
public
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
71 works at all named in the conditions. I state that the
insertion of Esquimalt in the Government Resolutions was not
governed by sectional prejudices. The Executive Council took the broad view
that is was for the interest of the Canadian Government to build this Dock,
because if Victoria prospers under Confederation, it will be so much better
for the Dominion revenue. If the work is a benefit to Victoria, through
bringing labourers, it will benefit the whole Colony, and our position will
be improved, and therefore we shall become a more important part of the
Dominion. If it pleases the people of Victoria, if they consider it a sufficient
inducement to go into Confederation, let them do so. The people of Victoria
are here to make money, and not to found empires; their children may perhaps
make the kingdoms and empires. If the people like Confederation on these
terms, I say let them vote for it.
Hon. MR. CARRALL, Member for Cariboo—" It may not be
intentional, but it is so," were the concluding words of the Hon. Mr. Wood.
I say yes, so far as this: that the whole of the conditions of this scheme
were intended to benefit the whole of the Colony. As a Member of the
Executive Council, I repudiate entirely the narrow motives which have been
suggested by the Hon Mr. Wood. The Executive Council were actuated by no
sectional views; their object was to make the whole of the Resolutions not
only palatable, but beneficial, to the Colony. The merits of Esquimalt as a
site for the Docks are in themselves a sufficient reason to advance in
favour of the Executive opinion being correct. I shall vote for the clause as it
stands.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—I am one of those who think it proper to
have the locality for the Docks named; and I think the Government would have
made a blunder if they had left out the word "Esquimalt." It would have been
wrong, in my opinion, if the Government had framed the Resolutions with any
sectional views. But it appears to me whilst they are likely to do the
Colony good generally, they have been framed with a tendency to create the
popular vote, and I do not see much harm in that. The point which I want to hear
about is, whether £100,000 will be sufficient to construct a good Dock, and
what sort of a Dock it is to be? It is possible that a large Stone Dock may
not be of so much use as a Patent Slip. I have visited the Floating Docks in
the Arsenals of the United States, to take such observations as
would serve an unprofessional man; and I confess that if it is to be a Stone
Graving Dock in Constance Cove, to admit of one vessel at a time, I am
inclined to the opinion that it would not be as good, nor as much public
utility, as a Patent Slip. I shall support the item, or a larger sum than
£100,000. I believe that a Dock, or a Patent Slip, at Esquimalt, will
attract ships from Puget Sound. It is a step in the right direction. There is a
feeling abroad that the Colony would have to construct this Dock. This would
be a mistake; but to get Canada to endorse the scheme, by giving a guarantee
for the interest, is, in my opinion, the right course to pursue.
Hon. MR. TRUTCH—That is the intention; that a private company
should undertake the work, the Dominion giving a guarantee. it will be left
for the company to choose. Probably Clarke's Patent Slip, with hydraulic
lift, would be the easiest worked, as it would be the cheapest. It could
probably be erected for £75,000, whereas a cut stone Graving Dock would cost
more. One of the advantages of the latter would be that there would be more money
expended in the Colony during its construction, whereas the principal cost
of a Patent Slip would be expended elsewhere for machinery. I cannot say if
£100,000 would be enough for the construction of a cut stone Dock or not. I
think that a guarantee of 5 per cent. on £100,000 will be a sufficient
inducement for any company to take the matter up. I am convinced
that £100,000 will not build a stone Dock of sufficient capacity to take in such a
ship as the Zealous.
Hon. MR. WOOD—If the people of Victoria desire the terms, why
should not they vote for Union? My desire is, if we are to be united. to see
a union which shall be lasting. I say that these terms are not lasting. They
are in the nature of direct and immediate pecuniary advantage. Reaction will
set in after the Railway and Dock are built. Show me in these terms
continuing and abiding benefit, and I am satisfied. Let the people of Victoria
choose, but I ask Hon. Members, who understand human nature, whether the
people would not choose direct benefit in preference to prospective and
continuing advantages. Mankind will choose direct present pecuniary benefit,
rather than. that benefit which is to be lasting and remote. I fear
reaction. I look upon this place as my home, and shall complain, I think with
justice, if ten years hence I find a great reaction of the present hasty
action.
72
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN—Would it be better to have Confederation
with no terms at all, or with terms equal to these?
Hon. MR. WOOD—I ask for different terms; power to impose our
own tariff, for instance.
Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN—The objections of the Hon. Member are not
correct. When the Dock and Railway are built, I admit that some source of
labour, and consequent interest, will be gone, but then we must look for
other interests to arise. I admit that discontent may arise; it has
frequently been so in England, when a large number of labourers have been
thrown out of employment; but I say that the Dominion and Local Governments will
have the power and the sense to remedy any such evils as they occur.
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I cannot fancy anything more calculated
to promote permanent benefit than the establishment of Graving
Docks. Every ship that comes in would spend money, would be a benefit to the
town, and a continuing benefit; and not to the town only, but to some extent
to the whole Colony. It the Colony goes on and increases, so must the work
to be done in the Docks go on increasing. I regret that the Hon. Mr. Wood should
have taken the ground that the Executive are influenced by any sectional
motives. I do not see why the Hon. Member should refuse benefits which come
under Confederation. He would surely not prefer to go in without terms.
Hon. Mr. DRAKE—I doubt whether the amount named is large
enough. I have information from good authority that double that
amount will be required. Canada is only asked to guarantee the interest. I
shall, therefore, move an amendment, in the shape of a recommendzv tion to
His Excellency, that the sum of £100,000 be increased to £150,000 in the
conditions I am of opinion that the terms should be put in as favourable a
light as possible for this Colony.
Hon. MR. PEMBERTON—I would ask the Chief Commissioner of
Lands and Works whether it would be possible to connect the supply of water
with the Docks? London is supplied by a large fresh water reservoir, and it
is possible that the same course might be adopted as regards this city. If
the course of the water in the valley of Victoria Arm were stopped, the
Gorge being a natural valley, if it were possible to exclude the salt water from
the whole of Victoria Harbour, a vast natural reservoir of fresh water might
be formed, which would supply the whole city with water. Being no engineer,
I feel some diffidence in putting it forward. I only put it as a suggestion
to the Chief Commissioner, with the view of inquiring whether it
could be done.
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—It is impossible for me to offer an
opinion upon the suggestion of the Hon. Mr. Pemberton. The supply of water
upon the supposed plan, would contemplate the expenditure of much more money
than the sum required for Graving Docks. Besides the proposed place is too
low, and would necessitate the water being pumped up to a second reservoir.
Moreover, I am of opinion that the supply of water is too much of a local
matter to be worthy of mention in the terms.
Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK— My amendment is, that the word "Esquimalt"
be struck out, on the ground that it is too sectional. I believe that any
Company which is formed will erect a Patent Slip instead of a Dock. It has
been shown in practice to be more useful. I move that the word "Esquinialt "
be struck out.
Hon. Mr. Wood's reconnuendation to strike out the word "Esquimalt," and to insert
"such place as the Dominion Government shall appoint," on division was lost,
two only voting in favour of it.
Hon. Mr. Drake's reconnuendution "That the sum of £150,000 be named," on division
was
lost, eight voting in favour of the recommendation.
Clause 4 was then passed as read.
The Chairman then read section 5:-
" 5. In addition to the other provisions of this Resolution, Canada shall assume and
defray
" the charges of the following Services:-
"(a.) Salary and allowances of the Lieutenant-Governor:
"(b.) Salaries and Allowances of the Judges and Officers of the Supreme Court, and
" of the County Courts:
"(c.) The charges in respect of the Department of Customs:
"(d.) The Postal Department:
CONFEDERATION DEBATE 73
"(e.) Lighthouses, Buoys, Beacons, and Lightships, and such further charges as may
"be incident to and connected with the services which by 'The British North
"America Act. 1867,' appertain to the General Government, and as are or may be
"allowed to the other Provinces."
The
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the adoption of this
Clause, which he said was taken from "The British North America Act, 1867,"
and would relieve the Colony of the payment of a certain amount annually in
the shape of Salaries.
Hon. MR. HUMPRHEYS—I shall move a recommendation that the
maintenance of the Roads by the Dominion Government, be included in this
Clause.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—This seems to be a made up clause, it is
provided for in "The British North America Act," and the insertion of the
clause in these Resolutions looks like setting it before the country for the
object of educating them up to what they are expected to ask for.
Hon. MR. TRUTCH—I think it is partly provided for by "The
British North America Act; " yet it is included in the Terms of the proposed
admission of Newfoundland.
Hon. MR. ROBSON—I do not agree with the Hon. Member for
Victoria District. I think the Act of British North America applies to
original Provinces, and provision is made for the admission of others. They
might be presumed to apply to us, but I think it is proper to ask in an
address that these charges should be put in, and that it is as necessary to insert
these as it is to insert any clauses. We should make it plain that we desire
to have these terms applied to us.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—There is no provision in paragraph (
b) for payment of salaries of Judges of
Admiralty or District Courts.
Hon. MR. WOOD—I move to strike out these paragraphs; they are
mere verbiage. One word with respect to the Admiralty Court, which ought to
be included if the Supreme Court is inserted. '
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—We have no power, as a Council, to deal
with the constitution of the Admiralty Court; nor is this the
proper time to enter into any discussion respecting it.
Hon. MR. WOOD - I say we have every power, and I take this
opportunity of saying that the Admiralty Court is badly managed. I have
heard it insinuated that the Judges of the Admiralty Courts in this Colony
have been influenced by fees to prolong the business of the Court and drag
out Admiralty business to its utmost length, instead of pushing it through, as
the business of the Common Law Courts is pushed through. There ought to be
no fees. Admiralty practice in this Colony is likely, in case of war, to
assume enormous proportions. I do not see why a condition should not be
insorted to provide us with an Admiralty Court with Judges to be paid by
fees.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—Does the Hon. the Attorney-General intend
to insert Admiralty Court?
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—We must not arrogate to ourselves
powers which we have not; and the insertion of such a clause in the
Resolutions which we are now discussing would be entirely out of place, and
I would suggest to Hon. Members not to introduce this Resolution now, but
let it be brought up as a substantive measure. It cannot be brought up again, if
it is decided now.
Hon. MR. WOOD—I said, and I repeat it, that if the Imperial
Government were properly approached this thingr might be done, just as if
the Crown were properly approached, the Crown Salaries Act might be
repealed.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—I think some action ought to be taken. I
wish to call attention to the fact that the Canadian Parliament have power
to fix the salaries of the Judges in Admiralty, where they are paid by
salaries.
Hon. MR. DRAKE—I would draw the Attorney-General's attention
to section 100 of the British North America Act, which includes Admiralty
Courts where the Judges are paid by salaries and pensions. It is expressly
stated that the terms of the British North America Act shall apply to this
Colony; then why not insert it in the words} of the Act? Though we are
74
CONFEDERATION DEBATE. aware that these Resolutions have to
be carried, there is no reason that we should not add recommendations. I
think section 100 of the Act is better than our clause. I will move the
addition of the word "pensions"
Hon. Mr. ROBSON—I cannot see that the application of section
100 would meet the case. It would be ineffectual because our Judges of the
Admiralty Court are not paid by salaries; therefore it would be inoperative
as regards British Columbia. Whilst I deem it quite desirable to make the
change suggested, I do not think this is the time to make it. I should
suggest postponing the discussion of the question as to the Admiralty Court until
these Resolutions are settled.
Hon. Mr. TRUTCH—Why complicate the question? Why not bring it
up in open House and discuss it?
Hon. Mr. WOOD—It could be done in three or four months. The
Judges of the Admiralty Courts could be put upon salaries, and section 100
would then be applicable. We are upon the question of Judges, and why not
decide it at once?
Hon. Mr. TRUTCH—I am not prepared to discuss this question,
as to the Admiralty Court, now. It proper notice is given of its being
brought up, I shall then be prepared to go fully into its merits.
Hon. Mr. RING—The question is: are the Judges of the
Admiralty Court, Judges? Why should we not say clearly and unmistakeably
what we mean? I shall support the recommendation of the Hon. Mr.
Wood, and I hope the members of the Government will pause before they oppose
it. Let them consider whether it is desirable to admit the principle that
any person exercising the office of a Judge should be paid by fees. I say that the
question is properly before us now, and the recommendation comes fairly and
correctly in this place.
Hon. Mr. ALSTON—I agree with the Hon. Mr. Wood, as to the
Constitution of the Admiralty Court, but should vote against the
recommendation, and for the Resolution, because i do not think that this
recommendation, or amendment, for it virtually amounts to that, if acted
upon by the Executive, would effect the cure; the Judges would still take tees.
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—I shall be obliged to vote against this
recommendation, if it is pressed, on account of the way in which it is
brought up here. The friends of the alteration are those who are refusing to
join in bringing it forward at this inopportune time. A vote taken now,
would prevent free discussion of the subject. I recommend the Hon. Member to
withdraw his amendment, and I invite full and free discussion of the subject of
the Admiralty Courts upon a special day to be fixed.
Hon. Mr. TRUTCH—This discussion is inapporpriate at this
time. If this side of the House were against the consideration of the
payment of Admiralty Judges by fees, they could let it pass in Committee,
and kill it in the House; then. under our Standing Orders, it could not be
brought up again, but we do not intend to do so. I shall vote against it
The Hon. Mr. Wood, with the permission of the Council, withdrew his recommendation,
on the understanding that it was to he brought up at a future day as a distinct motion.
The Hon. Mr. Drake's recommendation as to Pensions was put, and lost.
Hon. Mr. WOOD—It is treating the
reconnnendations of non-official members with contempt and
disrespct to find the Government Members voting them down. ["No, no," from
the
Attorney-General]. ["Yes, yes," from
Mr. Drake.]
Hon. Mr. WOOD Let us
have an opportunity of putting our opinion upon record. This Government vote
operates as a wet blanket upon all occasions.
Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL—It is the common sense of the House,
which says that recommendations which are against the basis of the
Resolutions should not pass.
Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS—If what we do is not to meet the eye of
the Executive, it is of no use being here. I never felt so mean. Our
position in this Council is nugatory; utterly futile and contemptible. If
all the elected members felt as I do, we should leave the Council in a body.
and have nothing more to do with it. ["Hear. hear," from
Mr. DeCosmos]
Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS I find
it difficult to speak of the Government conduct of business in this House
with patience.
Hon. Mr. TRUTCH—I should really like to know what this is all
about. One Hon. Member that the course is disrespectful, because the sense
of the Council was against him. The Hon. Member for Lillooet indulges in a
species of harangue which is peculiar to him; when he is at a loss for an
argument he shakes the red flag of officialdom before him, lowers his head,
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
75 and charges at it madly. With regard to disrespect, I think
we treat them with respect by discussing them here at all. We might allow
them to pass here, and vote them down in the Executive; but instead of that,
the Executive Members enter freely into the discussion here, and declare
what their views are fully. As to voting recommendations of Hon. Members
down, when a suggestion is made to substitute one Scheme for another, it would be
strange if the Government Members should not unite in voting it down. With
regard to the recommendations for adding to the terms and
conditions, they ought to be carefully made. or their insertion may create
great disappointment in the public mind by leading people to expect more
than will he acceded. Hon. Members should weigh their votes well. I, for one, will
not vote for what I cannot recommend to His Excellency in the Executive
Council.
Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS—I am not in the habit of holding my head
down, I always hold it up. I agree with the Hon. Mr. Wood, that all that we
are likely to do for the public benefit is crushed by the official vote.
Hon. MR. CARRALL—The Hon. Mr. Wood has stated that the
recommendations of the Elected Members would be treated with contempt. He is
not a Member of the Executive Council. I, as a Member of that Council, can
tell him that they are always treated with the greatest respect.
Hon. Mr. WOOD—What I say is that the recommendations of
Independent Members do not reach, and will not reach, the head of the
Executive. We want them to reach. We all believe that the Members of the
Executive will mention them, but that is not what we want. We desire that
these recommendations should meet the eye of the Executive. 1 disdain to
consider that the Executive rules this Colony. They do not; they administer the
Government, and l consider it to be the duty of the Executive to sink their
own views, when they do not accord with the popular will. It is quite
possible that the Executive may be wrong and the Popular Members right
occasionally
Hon. Mr. TRUTCH—I do not think the position of the Hon. Mr.
Wood is correct. There are now three Resolutions of, so-called, Popular
Members before the Executive; why are so many of their recommendations
carried if there is any desire to treat them with dis» respect? The
difficulty is, that the Hon. gentleman persisted in trying to force a vote upon
his Resolution about the Admiralty Court. I, if pressed to give an opinion
at an inapposite time, would vote against it.
Hon. MR. DeCOSMOS—The conviction in and out of this House is,
that the Elected Members are useless, being outnumbered by the official
vote. The only reason why I would endeavour to be elected to a seat, in a
Council so constituted, is to prevent evils that might happen. The
Government might get tools to go in and vote as they liked. The Government
might get some one to be elected, and then call it the popular vote. The mistake
has been in interpreting recommendations into amendments.
Hon. MR. ROBSON—Mr. Chairman, I think that nothing can be
more unfair, nothing more ungenerous, than the position taken by some Hon.
Members towards the Government. This scheme was brought down to the House by
the Government. and we were invited by the Hon. Attorney-Genera and other
Members of the Government, to make any recommendations or suggestions that
we thought proper, and they would receive every consideration at the hands
of the Executive. I fail to see one single act or vote at variance with that
position. I have seen leading Members of the Government vote different ways;
and this I take to be an evidence of their sincerity. There seems to be a
disposition to run away with the impression that the unofficial members are
treated with disrespect. To me. Sir, such a position is undignified and
absurd. Because I have moved a recommendation. and the House has voted it down, am
I treated with disrespect? Why, follow this up and an adverse vote would be
in every case an insult to the minority, and legislation would become an
impossibility. I am grateful to the Government for what I consider a great
scheme; grateful for having the opportunity of voting upon it, and I join
the Hon. Chief Commissioner in warning the House against voting alterations in the
Terms. lest such a course should create hopes to be
afterwards disappointed, and lead to a reaction which might result in the
defeat of the whole scheme at the polls. 1' would also caution Hon. Members
to avoid attempting to induce the Government to insert terms which would
imperil the scheme with the Dominion Government. I shall set aside any particular
views and suggestions I should like to make, to avoid that
result. I can understand
76
CONFEDERATION DEBATE. enemies of the cause rushing in
resolutions calculated to raise extravagant hopes, and so produce
disappointment and fatal reaction, but not friends of the caus.. In recommending
alterations to Government our reason and judgment should be
fairly and calmly exercised.
Clause 5 was put to the Committee by the Chairman, and passed as read.
The Chairman read Clause 6:-
"6. Suitable Pensions, such as shall be approved of by Her Majesty's Government, shall
"be provided by the Government of the Dominion for those of Her Majesty's Servants
in the
"Colony, whose position and emoluments derived therefrom would be affected by political
"changes on the admission of this Colony into the Dominion of Canada,"
The Hon. ATTORNEY-GENERAL said :—In proposing the adoption of
this clause, it is only necessary for me to state to the House that it is
inserted in accordance with Lord Granville's despatch. Confederation will,
in all probability, affect the positions of certain officials, and the
despatch advises that provision should he made, hence this clause.
Hon. Mr. HUMPHREYS—I do not approve of the principle of
pensions, and I cannot understand why pensions should be given to
men who came out to this Colony, as I came out, as needy adventurers. The
people of this country do not approve of pensions. If Hon. Members had been
induced to come out from England to assume positions under Government for life, I
could understand their being provided for with pensions on the
positions being abolished. I was once a Government Officer in this Colony
myself, and should of course have liked to get a pension; but in my opinion
the present Government officials have drawn very good pay for doing very
little work, for long enough; and before a pension is given, it should he shown
that the person to whom it is given has done the State some service.
Hon. MR. DeCOSMOS—We have now, Sir, arrived at the.
Government's "wisdom" in delaying Confederation in 1868, and subsequently,
and of which we heard from the Hon. Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works
The Hon. gentlemen who own this Colony—for the Governor and Executive
virtually own the country—are now ready to execute a quit claim deed of this
colony to Canada, for a pension to each, and it may be the cheapest mode of
getting rid of them. Pensions are a modern discovery. The Romans granted
triumpth entries as a reward to their most distinguished citizens; and the
Greeks crowned those whom they would honour with lanrels; but now pensions
are the fashion. How much more substantial! The whole secret of the
opposition of the Government to Confederation lay in the question of pensions.
["No, no."] ["Yes, yes."] Still I shall vote for the clause, as I believe
this to be the cheapest way of buying out the present possessors, the
virtual owners of the Colony, I think it ought to be pensions or
compensation, but I will move no amendment:
Hon. Mr. HOLBROOK—I am prepared to support this clause. It
shows that Great Britain does not forget her public servants, It is a good
and proper clause, and a usual one. This is following out what is done in
every other British Colony. I shall support the clause.
Hon. MR. WOOD—I shall support this clause. It stands out in
strong contrast to the action of the Imperial Government, in their treatment
of public officers upon the occasion of another union. I am glad to see this
clause inserted, as representing a principle that ought always to he
recognized.
Hon. DR. HELMCKEN—The Hon. Member for Victoria District is
attributing motives again. If he throws dirt on others, he must expect to
have it thrown back on himself, and it might as well be said that Hon.
Representative Members who vote for Confederation only vote for it for the
sake of the loaves and fishes. [No, no," from
DeCosmos.]
Hon. DR. HELMCKEN This is a question for
the Canadian Government. not for us. Government officials are entitled to
some compensation for loss of offices, and the Canadian Government will
think so too To them I leave it. They will, I believe, settle the question
honourably.
Hon. Mr. DeCOSMOS— I challenge any man to say that I ever
asked to have any Government post or appointment. I have lived
half a century, and three-fourths of that time I have earned my own bread
and spent my own money.
Hon. DR. HELMOKEN— I don't accuse the Hon. Member of seeking
office. I say the argument might be used; and if gentlemen will throw dirt,
they must expect. to get it thrown on them.
Hon Mr. DeCOSMOS—The remarks I made were as to times past. As
to dirt, I never use it. I deal in facts. I know men, however, who have for
themselves and friends stuck closely to the loaves and fishes; and I could
name some public men who did their best and succeeded in
CONFEDERATION
DEBATE. 77 depriving the Colony of Vancouver Island of
half a million of dollars, that the Duke of Newcastle, as Colonial
Secretary, said belonged to it. [
Hon Mr. Helmcken —"Name."]
Hon Mr. DeCOSMOS No, I will not
mention names. I say, again, that the chief reason for this question not being
taken up in 1868, was because pensions were not provided. Now, Sir, I am
glad the Hon. senior Member for Victoria City has afforded me an opportunity
to explain the part that I took in pressing Confederation on the Council in
1868. I first endeavoured, with the Hon. Member for New Westminster, to
enlist Governor Seymour in the matter,—get him to take it up as a Government
measure,—and open negotiations with the Canadian Government. But he refused to
interfere in it, and said the Council might deal with it. Without the
support of the Governor, in a Council so constituted, there was no hope for
the measure. It then became a question whether any Resolution on it ought to
be brought forward in the Council. Some Confederates urged that it would not
do to have a Resolution defeated. 0n the other hand, I thought it best to make
some proposition, merely to elicit an expression of the Council's opinion,
and show the country its attitude on the question. For in agitating the
question, unless it could be proved incontestably that the Council and
Executive were opposed, the people could not be aroused to take action. I,
therefore, brought it up in a series of Resolutions before the House, and not in
Committee of the Whole. If I had had the least hope that it would have
passed, I would have had it considered in Committee of the
Whole,—the proper place to settle such an important matter, after the terms
had been settled between the two Governments. As a matter of course, the Resolutions
were defeated. But subsequently, when it was urged upon the
Governor, at the instance of the Collector of Customs, that the Council be
allowed to take action, he said "No; let the people act."
Hon. MR. CARRALL—I shall vote in favour of this clause, and I
only desire to offer three remarks. The Council have had two objects mainly
in view: first, to bring in a scheme which should bring general prosperity;
and, secondly, that no vested interests should be affected by the act of
Confederation. The positions held by official gentlemen are, I contend, vested
interests, and as such, entitled to protection. As regards the way in which
members have been treated in other Colonies, there are numbers who are now
receiving pensions. I may instance two notable members of the Imperial
Government—the Right Hons. Robert Lowe and H. C. E. Childers. I desire to
put it upon record that I vote for this clause with as much pleasure as I
support any clause of the Resolutions.
Clause 6 was then read by the Chairman, and passed as read.
" 7. The Dominion Government shall supply an efficient and
regular fortnightly steam "communication between Victoria and San Francisco,
by steamers adapted and giving facilities "for the conveyance of passengers
and cargo."
This clause speaks for itself, and it is unnecessary for me to say anything in support
of it.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—l regard this paragraph of the Resolutions
as a make-weight, nothing more nor less. It is a mistake to make it one of
the essential conditions. The time may come when we don't want this steam
communication. The Railway may come to Puget Sound, and then this clause
will be unnecessary. People will say, at first, that this is a splendid thing; but
it is all included in the British North America Act
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—The Hon. Member refers, I suppose, to
clause (
b) of Section 92, which excepts
"Lines of steamships between the Province and any British or foreign
country" from the "Local works and undertakings" which are declared to be subjects
of exclusive Provincial legislation. The Dominion Government would have to
make provision for mail steamers. This clause provides for regular
communication. When we have communication with Canada by railway,
such a clause as this would be unnecessary; but now, if confederated, we
shall need, more than ever, regular and more frequent communication with San
Francisco, which is the chain of communication with Canada.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—There seems to be a spirit of distrust in
this and other clauses of those Resolutions, a desire to have everything in
writing. I believe that we should have a steamship line without this clause.
Hon. Dr. HELMCKEN—The Hon. Member says it is of no use. If
the clause was not there, the Dominion Government need not give us this
communication. Postal communication it must give; but that means only
communication with Olympia
Hon. MR. ROBSON—I do not think that this implies distrust any
more than asking a man to give a note for a debt implies distrust. In the
conditions framed on the admission into the
78
CONFEDERATION DEBATE Confederation of Prince Edward Island
and Newfoundland, these matters are set out with great minuteness. I
perfectly agree that we might trust the Canadian Government, but we are not
in Canada, and we are asked to name specific terms. Surely we ought to do so. It
would be very unbusiness-like to say to the Dominion, we will leave it all
to you. The Dominion Government would say, let it be prepared in
black and white, so that we may say whether we can perform it or not.
The Chairman read Clause 7. Passed as read.
" 8. Inasmuch as no real Union can subsist between this Colony and Canada
without the "speedy establishment of communication across the Rocky
Mountains by Coach Road and " Railway, the Dominion shall, within three
years from the date of Union, construct and open "for traffic such Coach
Road, from some point on the line of the Main Trunk Road of this " Colony
to Fort Garry, of similar character to the said Main Trunk Road; and shall
further " engage to use all means in her power to complete such Railway
communication at the "earliest practicable date, and that surveys to
determine the proper line for such Railway " shall be at once commenced;
and that a sum of not less than One Million Dollars shall be "expended in
every year, from and after three years from the date of Union, in actually
con"structing the initial sections of such Railway from the
seaboard of British Columbia, to "connect with the Railway system of
Canada."
I move this Resolution, Mr. Chairman, as being the practical bond of Union between
the
Dominion and this Colony. I leave it to other members to discuss the details. I merely
say
that three years is the time deemed necessary to make preliminary surveys, and the
expenditure of a sum of $1,000,000 is the best practical guarantee that the work will
be
done. The
Dominion would not submit to the expenditure of such an amount if they did not intend
to
push the work forward as quickly as possible.
Hon. MR. DECOSMOS—Sir, I do not claim any honour in
connection with the Resolution respecting the Railway. I am
perfectly willing to accord the praise that is due to the originator of this
clause, but think a portion of it a great mistake. I do not altogether like
the way in which these Resolutions are got up. I don't like the preamble as to
"real union." In all these Govermnont Resolutions there is something of a
"catching" character; little hooks to catch the popular vote. Material union
can exist without railroads. Look at the real union between this Colony and
Great Britain. People who were here in 1859 may recollect how safe they felt
during the San Juan difficulty, and subsequently during the Trent affair.
There was then a physical union; we felt that we should be protected by force if
necessary. I believe that I was amongst the first or second of those who
moved in the matter of the transcontinental coach road. But whilst
on this Subject I will take occasion to do justice to the memory of the
gentleman who proposed the Overland Railway through British America. It was
during the administration of Sir Robert Peel, in 1844 or 1845, that A. W. Godfrey,
a bookseller in Halifax, addressed letters to Sir Robert Peel, about a
Railway from Halifax to Vancouver Island. Previously, Whitney had proposed
his scheme for a Railroad from Texas to the Pacific. Our worthy old citizen,
Mr. Waddington, has been distinguished among those who have taken active
measures in favour of the Railway. Till Lord Granville's despatch arrived,
none of the railway agitators seemed to have made much headway. At the Conference
of Delegates from British North America in London, an Overland Railway was
considered and described as "a subject of the highest importance, and one to
be promoted at the earliest stage that the finances of the country would
admit of" The proposition before us shows how great a stride has been made
in this matter since 1867, I have no wish to claim any honour or to detract
from that which is due to others, but we must recollect that $1,000,000 a year is
not a Railway across the Rocky Mountains. I have, however, year after year,
looked upon Railway communication as the only means to settle up
the interior of British Columbia. I never could see how British Columbia
could be settled up without a Railway to connect Fraser River with Kamloops.
I think, Sir, that a different course ought to be pursued by the Government
with the Dominion than that proposed. Assuming that the Coach Road may be
open in three years,—for I am ready to admit that proposition,—when people settle
the country from Thompson River to Osoyoos Lake the farmers must have the
means of transport for their various productions. How are they to get them
out? I maintain that the true course for the development of the resources of
the country is to make a line of Railway from
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
70 some navigable spot on the Fraser to Lake Kamloops, I claim
for this that it might be regarded as a part of the transcontinental line,
and in my opinion it would do more to build up the country than anything
else that could be conceived, and I believe it to be thoroughly practicable.
I, therefore, move a recommendation to His Excellency that the construction of
a Railway from steamboat navigation on the Fraser River to Kaniloops Lake be
inserted in the terms, instead of commending from the initial sections on
the seaboard of British Columbia.
Hon, CHIEF COMMISSIONER—Sir, I approach the consideration of
this clause with a great sense of the magnitude of the work which we propose
to the Government of, that Dominion with which we propose to be
confederated. My mind seems somewhat to shrink before the contemplation of
its magnitude; and it is only when the reflection is gradually forced upon
me, that the union can never be a reality until the Railway is commenced in our
own territory, and that it is necessary, that I can bring myself to believe
that it should be done. That it is practicable is undeniable, and needs no
argument. From all information I have been able to obtain, and comparing it
with the difficulties which have been overcome on the Pacific line, I
believe the proportion of cost of the proposed line of Railway from the
seaboard of British Columbia to Canada to be not more than two-thirds of the cost
of the line already built from California across the Sierra Nevada. There
will, of course, be difficulties to overcome, which may influence the choice
of the best line of route I believe we are justified in asking for
the construction of the Railway, and I am satisfied, I may say I know, that
there is a great desire on the part of those now in power in Canada to construct
this Railroad, and if it be in their power to do it it will be done. To go
to the terms: objections have been made to the time of commencement I would
ask the House to consider what an amount of prospecting and survey will have
to be done before any commencement can possibly be made in the work. I do
not think that there is any delay suggested by fixing the time of three
years. I think it is the shortest time that could be named. The proper line could
hardly be determined sooner. We do not presume to suggest the scheme, or the
means. My opinion is that the Railway will be built by private enterprise,
under a guarantee. As the Imperial Government have shown a desire to
encourage Confederation, I think we have a right to expect that they will
render seine assistance in the building of the Railway. especially after
Lord Granville's despatch. [Hear, hear] I hope that the Canadian Government will
have the assistance of the Imperial Government in carrying out this scheme,
It will be some time before the scheme can be developed, and then atleast
two seasons must elapse, as an immense amount of reconuoitring and surveying
will be necessary. Three years is not too much. The Hour Member for Victoria
District (Mr. DeCosmos) objects to the framing of this Resolution as too
catching. I think his objection is unfounded, I believe that the benefits will be
real and substantial. The reason that so small a sum as $1,000,000 is asked
for is that it is only intended to be an earnest. so to speak, on the part
of the Dominion Government that the Railway will be made. I believe that the
expenditure of $1,000,000 upon the first twenty miles will bring an
accession of from 5,000 to 10,000 to our population. We have a right to ask
that the Railway should be commenced here. It is desirable that it should be made
here. It will be found that when once it is commenced here a nucleus of,
population will be formed which will add considerably to the prosperity of
the Colony. It has been argued that no profit can arise from the expenditure
of the vast amount of capital that will be required to build this Railway.
It will cost probably $20,000,000, and therefore is not likely to be
profitable for years to come. We cannot, in my opinion. expect any pecuniary
return for years. It believes the Dominion Government, if they desire the
prosperity of this part of the Empire, to develop the resources of the
estate which we are handing over. If they value it as we. do, and as we
believe that they do. they will endeavour to realize the advantages at the
earliest possible date. This Railway will do so. when it is completed across the
Rocky Mountains, and in my opinion not till then shall we have a population.
Before concluding, I desire to say that it is intended, although it is not
so stated in the terms, to give an assurance to the Dominion Government that
any amount of land which they think reasonable will be given. This will be
made a part of the scheme for the construction of the Railway, if thought
desirable.
Hon, MR. HUMPHREYS—Sir, I look upon this clause as most
important. I am one of those who believe that there can be no real
Confederation without a Railroad. Government has made a mistake in naming
the sum of $1,000,000 to be expended on the seaboard. There
80
CONFEDERATION DEBATE. is no necessity to put this in. This
would only bring a floating population, which we do not want. I agree with
the Hon. Member for Victoria District, that the Railway ought to be
commenced in the agricultural districts of the Mainland. so as to connect them
with the head of navigation on the Fraser.
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—It does not become us, I think, to
dictate in what way the work should be done, or to describe the details of
the scheme to Canada. I feel confident that if this plan is really
taken up it will be done much more quickly than if only $1,000,000 a year
were spent. I think that several millions a year will be expended, and if so
I have little doubt that the Railway from the seaboard to the agricultural
districts will be made in five years.
Hon. CHIEF COMMISSIONER—That is what we have purposely left
open. The line may come down the valley of the Fraser, as in my opinion will
be best, or it may come through to Bute Inlet or Bentinck Arm. We have
purposely generalized and left it for those who undertake the work to
determine for themselves. It is not desirable for us to cramp this
Resolution by defining the locality for the line or terminus.
The Hon. MR. ROBSON—Sir, l conceive that we have now come to
the most vital part of the whole scheme. I quite concur in the opinion that
no real union can take place without a Railway. Did I believe that the
Overland Railway would not be made. I should hesitate very much about
Confederation, because l should he apprehensive that the whole scheme would fall
to pieces. I think that great haste must he used to build up an
English-speaking nation alongside of another existing
English-speaking country. To accomplish this end, I think that the Overland
Railway is necessary, and must: be pushed through to speedy completion to be an
immediate success. In ten years' time, without an Overland Railway, I do not
believe that we should have any British Territory here at all. The great
work must be undertaken with the assistance of both the Canadian and
Imperial Governments, and pushed through to a speedy success. It is true
that a sort of union might exist without a Railway, such as the union
between British Columbia and Great Britain. But we propose to establish a union
that will endure and that will render an Overland Railway just as necessary
as the arteries in the human body are necessary to circulate the blood and
to keep up life. I believe that $1,000,000 is a mere nominal sum, as
explained by the Hon. Chief Commissioner, a tangible security that the work
will be completed The expenditure of the first million will be a guarantee that
any company or Government undertaking it will carry it through. Every
reflecting mind will see that if any company spend $1,000,000 a year, they
must spend more, and that it will he to their interest to push it through.
To say that because we only name a sum of $1,000,000, that it will be a
matter of 100 years is absurd; my reply to this, I cannot call it an argument,
is that capitalists could not be found in the world so silly as to spread
the construction over one hundred, or fifty, or twenty, or even ten years. I
cannot support the amendment of the Hon Member for Victoria District; we
must carefully avoid committing ourselves to the route, or terms of
building. I think this may be safely left in the bands of the Dominion Government.
It is useless to argue that it is of vital importance to them
to have be best route. The Railway must pass through the Colony, and benefit
the Colony. no matter where the terminus; it must be in British Columbia.
and consequently a benefit to the whole Colony. I cannot see that it would
be better to begin in the middle. I look upon it as an absolute necessity that the
Railway should commence at the seaboard: moving the material is the great
expense that has to be contended against, and the advantage of being able to
land the material and lay it down at once on the road, will be incalculable.
If the Railway were to be constructed from a given point ten miles from the
seaboard, it would probably pay the contractors to build that piece of the
line. Unless Hon. Members can show us that the material can be brought to the line
by way of the Rocky Mountains, don't let us stultify ourselves by asking
them to begin in the middle. It is right that the work should be commenced
simultaneously on the Atlantic and Pacific sides. I fancy that, as a matter
of policy and economy, any company undertaking the work would so commence,
without it being named in the terms, as it would undoubtedly be more
economical to carry on the work by sea from the westward in British Columbia, and
by land from the East. As for the amount named in the conditions. as I have
said. I look upon it as a tangible assurance to the people that the thing
will be done, rather than as the specific statement of a sum with the
expenditure of which this Colony will be satisfied. I have some
CONFEDERATION DEBATE.
81 doubts about the clause requiring the Dominion Government
to make a Coach Road. The age for Coach Roads has almost passed away. Such a
road would not meet the requirements of the present day. I would prefer
removing this condition, and require the work to be commenced
within two years, or seek compensation in some other way as an equivalent for the
supposed advantage of the road. The sooner we do our little part towards
convincing the Dominion Government that this is necessary, the better, Not
only is the Railway a national necessity for the Dominion, but for every
fractional part of British North America.
The Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN—I reiterate that Confederation means
terms. What feeling now exists in favour of Confederation has been brought
about by the assertion that Canada will do certain things for the Colony,
amongst others, that she will build a Railway. If the people are deceived in
this matter; if Canada does not accede to this portion of the conditions,
she need not ask the people of this Colony to be united. I would ask the people to
hand them selves together to demand that the terms shall be verified, and I
hope they will take that stand. And I will ask that the promises made by the
Dominion Government will be strictly performed. ["Hear, hear," from
Mr.
DeCosmos and
Mr. Wood]
The Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN This Colony would be just as much isolated as ever
after a paper union, without a Railway as one of the conditions. I acknowledge
that we might have such union as exists with England now, with a Railway. We
are a Colony of England, and I don't know that many people object to being a
Colony of England; but I say that verv many would object to becoming a
Colony of Canada. As a Colony of England we have the right to legislate for
ourselves; if we become a Colony of Canada, that power is taken away. ["No,
no," from
Mr. DeCosmos] [
Hon Mr. Robson, it will give us more power]
The Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN I say
that the power of regulating our own commerce is taken away, and the only power
left to us is that of raising taxes for Municipal purposes That is the
difference between being a Colony of Canada, and a Colony of England. The
distance is so great between this Colony and Ottawa without any Railway and
without any Telegraphic communication, that laws might be passed there,
which would ruin British Columbia, without our having any notice of them. I
do not consider that Canada expects or intends to attempt to make this Railway a
paying institution of itself. There are a great many institutions in this
Colony which are not paying institutions. Canada takes the view that the
Railway is necessary to complete the British line of communication between
England and her Asiatic possessions, in order that the English people may
share in the carrying trade to China and the East Indies with our American
neighbours. Canada expects to influence Great Britain to guarantee the loan
for the formation of the Railway. Great Britain may guarantee the
loan for the purpose of having a check on the American line of Railway, but,
she would never guarantee it for Canadian purposes only. The people of
England would not tolerate it. I consider this an essential condition. Without it
Confederation must not take place. This is one of those things which will he
a vast benefit to this Colony and to Canada, and therefore I regard it as a
necessary condition. Why should this Colony join Canada except for the
benefit of both? We should be better off without Canada if we have no
Railway. I say that this Colony had better stand alone than risk everything
without a Railway. What benefit can Canada expect from Confederation with
British Columbia without a Railway? Is she afraid of, British Columbia being
handed over to America? If Canada thinks she can hold British Columbia for
her own purposes, and use it when she pleases, and takes her own time to do
what she likes with it, she is mistaken. The Railway has been made a lever for
Confederation, by Canada, I ask that Canada he now made to
promise faithfully that a Railway shall be made. With regard to the
expenditure of $1,000,000, there should he a forfeit of ten per cent payable
to this Colony if it is not spent; I am not so much afraid about the Canadian
Government not carrying out the terms as I am of our own
people. I believe that there is more danger from our own people than from
the Canadian Government. British Columbia may cheat herself, and it is our
duty, man for man, to take care that we don't cheat this Colony; that we don't
in fact cheat ourselves. I think that the Coach Road may be useful; it will
take some time to build a Railroad, and it will be necessary to have
communication. The road might be used for Immigration purposes, and for
drving cattle, but will he of no use commercially; such an idea would have
suited people who lived some years ago. Speaking of commerce in which the
Dominion is to take part, I do not myself believe that the Asiatic traffic will
come this way; but still we must not lose sight of the idea that it may
eventually be partially diverted to this route. These Resolutions do not
afford practically any immediate benefit. ["Hear, hear," from
DeCosmos.]
The Hon. Mr. HELMCKEN If
the Colony was united to the Dominion to-morrow, there would be no immediate
82
CONFEDERATION DEBATE. benefit to result even from the
Railway. This is one of the points on which the people may be deceived. If
they imagine that with Confederation will come immediate prosperity. I shall be
glad if anyone will point out how it is to come. If it were made inland it
might be more beneficial to agricultural interests in a short space of time,
than if commenced on the sea coast. Public works in this Colony should help
to develop the resources, and one thing should he made to work with another,
so as to be mutually beneficial; each should be for the benefit of the
whole, and the whole for the benefit of each. Suppose a Railway were commenced
tomorrow at Fraser River, how much benefit would it be? It might be some,
but if these public works were made subservient to the interests of settling
up the Colony, they would be more likely to be beneficial.
Hon. MR. CARRALL—Sir, I have only a few words to say, and
have no intention of detaining the House at this late hour, but I
must be allowed to express the satisfaction which I feel in observing a
change in the sentiments of the Hon. Member for Victoria City (Mr. Helmcken),
a change which does honour to his head and heart. He has begun to show some
faith in the Canadian Government at last. He may be called the pattern of the
distrustful party, and I augur favourably from his conversion. With regard to
the local advantages of a Railway, I would point to the construction of the
Intercolonial Railway Property in Halifax has gone up 40 per cent. since it
was built. I fully admit the desirability and necessity of a Railway, but I
cannot admit that Union cannot exist without it; look at the Union which
existed for so many years between California and the Eastern States of
America without a Railway. I believe that Canada, for Imperial reasons,
intends to undertake the construction of this Railway. As for the length of
time allowed for the commencement, I think it could not be well less than
three years. I believe with the Hon. Chief Commissioner, that the work will
be undertaken by a private company, under guarantee. If so, it would be hampering
the Government of the Dominion to make them commence earlier. It might compel
them to close with parties not in all respects eligible. It would put them in
a false position. If the Colony had charge of her own Crown lands, there
should be a power given to Canada to promise Crown lands in connection with
the construction of the Railway. I regret that this has not been put in the
Resolutions, but no doubt the omission can be remedied hereafter.
On the motion of
Hon. Mr. Drake, the Committee rose, reported the passing of Clauses 5,
6, and 7, and obtained leave to sit again at one o'clock the 17th instant.
Report adopted, and Clauses 5, 6, and 7, passed.
This individual participated in:
