1
THE NEWFOUNDLANDER.
St. John's, Wednesday, February 24, 1869.
TUESDAY, Feb. 16.
The House met at three o'clock, pursuant to
adjournment.
On motion of
Mr. GODDEN, the House resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on
the further consideraion of the address in reply
to his Excellency's speech, Mr. KNIGHT in the
chair.
Mr. LITTLE thought that too much time had
been spent in the discussing a question which in
reality was not before the chaur, and that that
which really was before the chair had been discussed in a manner calculated to distract
the attention of the House, and consume time which
ought to be devoted to other purposes. Every
species of argument had been used, and a general desise to rush to the front in the
cause of
Confederation had been exhibited, though that
question was not before the House. The Government could not deny but that it was their
own supporters who first promoted this unnecessary discussion, which consumed the
time
and mouey of the country. His (Mr. L's) idea
was that the discussion should be confined to
each section as it presented itself. The section
now under consideration was that which proposed immediate legislation on the question
of
Confederation, or at least that the House should
now enter into the discussion of that question.
He concurred with all his heart in the latter
part of the amendment proposed by the hon.
member, Mr. Talbo, not only because of his
(Mr. L's) pledge to his constituents, but principally because this Legislature was
not elected
for the purpose of definitely binding the country
on the subject of Confederation. Even the hon.
and learned leader of the Government himself
was not sent here by his constituents with full
power to deal with the question. In plain language, he told the people that the matter
would
be referred to them before any action would be
taken on it; and he (Mr. L.) did not doubt but
that the hon. and learned geutleman would
keep his promise. In
limine, the moment assent
is given to the principle or a measure and its
details are taken up for cousideration, and embodied in resolutious and passed by
this House,
from that moment the approval of the country
to that principle becomes a mere
[?].
He (Mr. L.) understood that the course proposed by the Government was to discuss the
principle and the terms together, and by a resolution of this House make the acceptance
of
these terms a solemn act of the Legislature, then
to send a delegation to the Government of
the Dominion, asking their assent to these
terms, and if they be accepted by them, then
to dissolve the Legislature and send hon. members to their constituencies for approval
of their course of action, and not for acceptance or rejection of the principle of
Confederation. If that be the course
by which it is proposed to accomplished a gigantic scheme, for the amelioration of
the country's
ils, it is taking a very bad in means for the accomplishment of that end. They were
not there
to legislate on the question of Coafederation,
and he, for oue, was returned to oppose it in
the shape in which it was first presented to
the country. He would oppose both terms and
resolution in the present House, because otherwise he would be false to his coustituents.
The
present Legislature was incapable of dealing
with the matter, because it had not been clothed
with the necessary powers by the people, who
alone can
[?] them. In a matter of this sort
be considered that all should act together, sinking
all party and personal interests, when the rights
pf
[?] government were about to be transferred
to strangers, and the dearest interests of the
people to be sacrificed. The matter has been
subject of discussion in
[?], House before, and
the House had set its face against the principle
and the terms, as emploied in the Quebec
scheme. That no one could deny. Petitions
were presented to this House against the introduction of that scheme, add yet hon,
gentlemen
opposite say that the Legislature were empow
ered to discuss the principle and to bind the
country. Such was not the case. It would be
a breach of faith to attempt it, and those who,
attempted it will find that the day of reckoning
will come, when they will appear before their
taskmasters, who will assurelly bring them to
account for their faithlessness. He (Mr. L.)
would have no reason to four meeting his constituents, for he would observe his pledge
to them,
which was that in the first instance the question of Confederation and its term should
be,
submitted to the people. Should they at
the polls declare in favour of it, then
he would be happy to carry out their
desires to the bast of his ability
until then he would vote against both, unless
it were made a condition that unless the people
adopted them they should not be held to bind
the country. He did not regard legislative action
on such a matter as mere lip service or
proformx
work. After passing resolutions as proposed,
the question would become ore of man, not of
measures. Really the conduct of the Government with regard to this matter was sufficient
to excite suspicion in the minds of honest men.
Wny have they not long ago come down with
the proposed terms? Why do they keep them
back? Why herald the very shadow of Confederation with such speeches as had been heard?
Why not in these speeches deal with facts instead of theories? He thought the amendment
before the chair was a very proper one,
and woull give it his support, for the reasons
which he had already expressed. To these
reasons and that opinion he would
adhere. He had given his opinion as shortly
as he could. He would, so far as his power
enabled him, opposs the passing of any resolutions respecting the principle or term
of
Confederation, because the matter should first
be laid before the people, who knew best what
was for their own interest.
Mr. PROWSE had much pleasure in listening
to the hon. and learned member who had just
spoken, though he (Mr. P.) differed with his
views. He (Mr. P.) considered that the whole
question of Confederation rested on the terms.
Hon. gentlemen opposite, and all blessed with
the highest and most gifted minds, admitted that
the principle was one which could not be gainsaid. There was no man would go so far
as to
say we would not have Confederation on any terms.
To go to the bustings with the naked question
of principle would have no meaning, but to go
with the principle accompanied by the terms
was what they could very easily understand. He
agreed with the hon. and learned member for
Harbor Main that the people should decide the
question for themselves. How could the terms
be placed before them? These must first be
discussed and agreed to; and they ought to be
agreed to by every member in the House. He
(Mr. P.) considered that the terms should be
fair and equitable, and suited to tax interests of
the Colony. It would also have to be considered
whether they would be accepted by the
Dominion Government. If they were, then
they would be submitted to the people. If they
do not accept them then they fall to the ground;
but if they do accept them, then both this Legislature and that of the Dominion will
have to
address the Queen in Council praying Her approval of the matter. The hon. and learned
member for Harbor Main said that the couduct
of the Government was calculated to excite
suspicion. He (Mr. P.) considered that the
conduct of the Governmentt had been all through
as fair and open and above board as it could
possibly be. The hon. gentleman did not say
in what way their conduct was suspicious. Had
they accelerated or pushed on the question, or
forced it in any way? He (Mr. P.) had nothing to do with the Government, and merely
gave
his own opinions on the course of events, as
any other independant member would. The
Government looked on the matter as a most,
grave and important one, and they proceeded
slowly and calmly with it, just as it should be.
He supposed that in due time the terms would
be brought down. They could then be discussed
and criticised and
[?], There was a time
when Confederation was a small child in the
House, and when it had a great
many enemies quite ready to strangle it, but
now it had grown up and acquired considerable
strength, and those who before tried to strangle
it are glad to help it along. He (Mr. P.)
could recollect when the majority against Confederation, both inside and outside of
the House,
was very large, but the majority was even larger
the other way now. This was too important a
question for mere tricks of party, and it was
criminal for any man to be politically dishonest
about it. He had placed his views on record in
1895, and to these views he still adhered. He
then believed that as the majority was so large
against it, it would be a long time before it was
settled. However, he now believed that the
time to settle it had come. He ageed with
the hon. and learned member for Harbor Main,
that this House could not make any final settlement respecting the terms. That was
the province
of the people and a proviso to that effect should
be inserted in the resolutions. He (Mr. P.)
did not like to see the unfair way in which this
question of Confederation was dealt with, both
inside and outside of the House. Every man
who speaks in favor of Confederation had again
and again to fight against some exploded idea or
other. The "bleaching bones" idea was so far
gone that even the great head centre of Confederation distained to use it any more.
The
2
THE NEWFOUNDLANDER.
Union of Ireland was also brought forward in
eloquent terms, what possible contestion was
there between the Union of Ireland and this
guestion of Confederation? Hon. gentlemen
knew very well that it had none, and it was
cowardly, mean and dastardly thus to appeal to
the passions and prejudices of the people. His
District had suffered a great deal by the withdrawal of local steam, The withdrawal,
however was unavoidable, for in the present condition of the colony the subsidy could
not be afforded. He thought that local steam shoull be a
sine Qua Non of Confederation. They would
then have something better than the dirty tub
they used to have, and would also have better
than the present tub in Conception Bay. He
knew that the hon. member for St. John's had
tried and were trying to stir up a feeling against
confederation, but he believed that his (Mr. P's)
constituents were favorable to it on good terms.
He hoped these good terms would be got, and
that if not none other would be accepted. He
had often in that House tried to procure the
erection of a Light House in his district, but
had failed. Last summer representations on the
matter were made to the Dominion Government
and without hesitation they sent down a steamer,
had a survey held and the site agreed on, and
the building will commence at once. There was
earnest of one of the benefits of Confederation.
The speeches on this question were so long that
the subject was nearly worn threadbare, but
there was one important matter which was
only slightly, if at all glanced at. That was
the power given to the Dominion Parliament to
negotiate commercial treaties, which would
aftect this country in the matters of the French
shore and the Spanish trade. He had been
told that the Dominion was endeavoring to establish a free trade with the Spanish
West
India Islands, and that it will be accomplished
so soon as the affairs of Spain are settled. Newfoundland had a very great interest
in that
matter. The differential duty against foreign flags
had operated very prejudicially to our interests.
This duty had been the means of prohibiting our
fish being carried in English bottoms to Spain,
and it had been maintained by the interest
which a few Mediterranean ship-owners possessed at the Cortes. With the new Government
the flag duty would be taken away, and our
commercial relations with Spain would, through
the influence of the Dominion be placed upon a
much fairer footing than at present. It was of
the greatest possible importance to us that our
interests should be represented at Madrid. The
produce of Sweden, and Holland had, through
the influence of their respective Ministers, been
brought into great demand in the Spanish
market. Spain consumed annually 900,000qds.
of codfish, and of this we did not send them one- fourth, hiring been cut out by the
Swedish
fish. Petitions and memorials sent year after
year to the Colonial office had all proved unavailing to remove the invidious obstacles
against
which we had to contend, and our only chance
of success lay in the power conferred upon the
Dominion, of making commercial treaties and
sending an accredited minister to these Courts.
He (Mr. P.) had referred to this point because
he knew something of it personally. He trusted when the real question came down, the
terms
and bona fide conditions of Confederation, they
will receive that calm and dispassionate consideration to which they were entitled.
The hon.
COLONIAL SECRETARY should have
taken no part in the debate, did he not consider
it the duty of every hon member to express his
opinions on the important matters, before the
chair. For his (hon C. S's) part, he was tied
by no pledges, but felt himself perfectly free to
deal with the question of Confederation and to
give publicity to the views which he had
always held. When the question was first
brought into notice, though we had a genial tariff
and everything in our favour, he had been of
opinion that we could not ally ourselves to the
neighbouring Colonies without being benefitted.
He had regarded Newfoundland as a poor family
invited to cast in her lot with half a dozen
families in comfortable circumstances, and he
had been persuaded that such a union could not
but rebound to her advantage. In 1865 he had
before his constituents avowed his sentiments,
and he had told them that whenever the question
came up for consideration he would vote in
favour of it. If then they had disapproved of
his sentiments they need not have elected him.
He should now vote in favour of the Address, and
if in this he was running counter to the opinions
of his district they were perfectly free to elect
another man. We could not but regard this
quastion of union as one fraught with importance, as it must affect the weal or woe
of the
country for all time to come. The settlement
of the matter could not without prejudice to the
community be longer delayed. Delay would
not only be cowardly but suicidal as, regarded
the interests of the Country and those who
were charged with the protection of those interests. He believed the country demanded
a
decision at the hands of this House, and that
seven-tenths of the people of the Island were in
favour of a change. Should then that change be
such as would continue us in our present position as a miserable fishing dependency?
Or
should it be such as would unite us with a
Dominion growing in wealth and importance
every day? With reference to the subject of
Reciprocity, though every hon. member admitted
its advantges, there was a variety of opinions.
Hon gentlemen on this side agreed with his
Excellency, that separated from the Dominion
we should be in no position to ensure to ourselves the benefits of reciprocal free
trade, while
hon. gentlemen opposite contended that Reciprocity might be brought about by a reduction
of the civil expenditure. With this latter view
he (hon, C.S.), could not concur. Wherever
there was a useless expenditure or a useless
office let it be removed. Bu, retrench as we
might he considered it, utterly impossible to
obtain all the benefits from such a policy as
hon. members opposite contemplated, and though
these benefits might be obtained, he considered
that they would bear no comparison to those
growing out of confederation. He (hon. C. S.)
had understood the hon. member, Mr. Little, to
say that it was the intention of the Government
to adopt by resolution the saction of this colony
to the terms of Confederation. He (hon. C. S.)
did not understaad it so. If this were so the
question would be definitely settled. The
measure could not be tested at the general
election and the election, would be a question
not of measures but of men. The hon. member
was throwing dust in the eyes of his coustituency,
and endeavouring to shirk the responsibility
which was incumbent upon him, leaving himself
free to accept Confederation as a foregone conclusion, while it was in reality undecided
and he
might in honesty oppose it. He (hon. C. S.)
considered that the time had arrived when we
should act like rational creatures. We could
not remain blind to the decleusion of the means
of employment and deaf to the appeals of misery
and distress. The resources on which the
people had trusted did not keep pace with the
increase of population. He did not mean to
say that Confederation would have the effect of
bringing fish to our shores, but he regarded it as
a means to an end, and that end the gradual but
unceasing and certain improvement of the condition of the country. It would be needless
for
him to express in detail his views upon this subject, for abler hands had already
dealt with it in
all its bearings. He hoped that the terms to
which this House would assant would be such
as would prove advantageous to the country,
that there would be no difficulty in obtaining
their appoval at the hands of the General Government, and that before long Newfoundland
would be an integral part of the Confederacy.
Mr. GLEN.—Hon. members opposite seemed to
be trying to educate the people on the subject of
Confederation, before the terms came down. He
only rose to make a remark upon the speech of the
hon. Reciever General, which was a very able and
argumentative speech. But the hon, gentleman had
stated matters which were not facts, tending to delude
the people. This statement could not arise from
the ignorance of the hon. gettleman. If the statement had come from the hon. member,
Mr. Pinsent,
he (Mr. G.) would not have taken the slightest
notice of it, for he did not consider that that hon. gentleman was quite
au fait at figures. The hon. Receiver General had stated that our expenditure
under Confederation would be $315,000 and the
grant from the Dominion $416,000, so that $100,000
would annually be left for roads. Now the Dominion did not grant us $416,000, so the
fact stated was
not correct. The amount of the Dominion subsidy
was $369,000, so that there was a difference of
$47,000 against the Colony. That statement of the
hon. gantleman had gone, forth to the world, had
been extensively read, and coming forth with the
prestige of his high character, it must have taken
effect. The hon. gentleman should have been more
guarded. If the Confederate cause were a good
one, it would not require misstatements to support
it. The hon, member, Mr. Pinsent, seemed to be
trimming his wings for a flight to Ottawa, and when
bye and bye the ugly rush for situations came (for
there would be an ugly rush), the hon. member if he
failed in getting a high legal position as Attorney
General or Solicitor General, after the display
which he had made the other day, would be fully
justified in looking for the post of Finance Minister.
He (M.G.) had stated a few days ago that the
Dominion was in difficulties, and that to save themselves from insolveccy, they had
to issue $5,000,000
in Treasury notes. The hon. member, Mr. Rendell,
had said that that could not be, as their debentures
were at a premium in London. The hon. member
should recollect that at that time parties in England
could not get more than 1.5 per cent. for their money,
on account of the excessive supply of gold. Suppose
the Dominion Government had thrown this $5,000,000 of debentures into the London market,
would
they have been saleable? Certainly not. The
Dominion Government were just as insolvent as our
own Government. These Treasury notes would have
to be called in, and a crash would come. Though
they were a Government of great abilities, they were
a reckless Government. He (Mr. G.) could not
see the expediency of one bankrupt Government
going into partnership with another.
The Hon.
RECIEVER GENERAL maintained the
accuracy of his statement. The subsidy of the Domminion Government would amount to
$416,500 and
under the Resolutions which were to be brought in,
the Government would look for a yet larger grant.
Mr. GLEN.—The Dominion Government deducts
the interest on the debt from the subsidy.
Hon. RECIEVER GENERAL.—Yes, but that I have
charged under the expenditure. He (hon. R.G.)
was amused by the anxiety of hon. members opposite. In Nova Scotia Confederation was
carried
without an appeal to the constituencies. In Newfoundland the Legislature are determined
that the
constituencies shall be consulted, and because the
very conditions which were denied to Nova Scotia
are granted to Newfoundland, Newfoundland,
forsooth, is the most aggrieved country in the world.
He was astonished to hear the hon. member, Mr
Little, talk of legislating upon Confederation. A simple resolutions is not legislation,
as legislation requires
the concurrence of the three estates of Parliament.
We pass resolutions expanatory of the details upon
which we would recommend the constituencies to
accept the Union, and after having these conditions
assented to by the General Government, we go to
the constituencies and say "Look calmly into the
question, see the condition of the country and say
whether or not we shall remain as we are: if so,
sweep from the bustings of those men who have ill- advised yet, but if you cousider
they are honest
adopt these terms and go into the Union." Hon.
members opposite were throwing dust in the eyes of
there constituents, and if they could succeed in
getting into power, they would carry out the measure
if Confederation. That was the meaning of the
phrase, "men and not measures." He was perfectly
astonished at the hon. member, Mr. Glen, saying
that he (hon. R.G.) was guilty of acts to delude
the people. He was here to instruct the people as
far as his powers and his position went, and when
he went before his constituents, if they disapproved
of him, they could reject him, and end his political
influence.
Mr. RENOUF contended that the figures of the hon
Receiver General were false, and that the hon
member, Mr. Glen, was correct. The hon. member
had said we would have to provide $315,000
for various services. He (Mr. R.) held in his
hand a statement which proved that we should have
to provide $360,000. Here was an error of$45,000.
The Miscellaneous expensiture under Confederation,
instead of $3,000, the amount assumed by the hon.
Receiver General, could not amount to less than
$37,000; for provision for coastal steam would
have to be made. He denied that the hon. Reciever General represented the views of
his constituants or of the Roman Catholic population.
The hon.
RECIEVER GENERAL said, that the best
reply to this remark was a letter he had received
from the Right Revd. Dr. Mullock, which he read
as follows—
"My dear Mr. Kent, I was delighted with your
speech in to-day's Newfoundlander. It is argumentative, convincing, and will do a great deal of good.
Praying for God continue you in good health.
I remain, yours sincerely,
J. T. AltJLLOCK.
The hon. John Kent.
Mr. RENOUF.—Hon. gentlemen, on this side
had the highest regard for Dr.Mullock, but this
was a matter which should be left to the people.
Hon. members on this side had fought the batle
of the people through good and through evil
report, and as long as they had the honor of
occupying seats in the House, they would represent their districts independent of
any influence.
Mr. BRENNAN.—There was a great deal of
conflicting opinions about Confederation. ÂŁ700
worth of potatoes would cause the people of St.
Mary's Bay to be independent, instead of paying it to a Geologist. Where was the property
discovered by that Geologist? Not the full of
his (Mr. B's) fist. There was plenty of flags
which ought to be used for drains about Torbay.
The pipes cost a great deal of money, that came
from across the Atlantic Ocean. A gentleman
said to him (Mr. B.) that they were a great
deal cheaper than the square drain. "Are
they?" said he (Mr. B.), "Oh yes," said the
gentleman "that is what they have in London."
"Are you going to tell me" said he (Mr. B.)
"that they are cheaper when the money goes
across the ocean and will never return."
Whereas, if the money was spent in time country
it would be like a weaver's shuttle, no sooner
out of one hand than into the other. Have the
flags at each side, lay it and cover it with three
feet of earth, and it will last as long as the
South Side hill. Our people were not here
accustomed to heavy labour. The Rilway
work in Canada was tha hardest work that
could be. He considered that annexation would
be more beneficial to Newfoundland as far
as its encouragement of labour was concerned,
than Confederation.
Mr. KEARNEY considered the subject before
the chair was the most important that
could come before this House. It was
well known that he was returned to this
House pledged to oppose Confederation.
In case, however, the government, intended
sending delegates to Canada, to adjust to
terms of Confederation, he hoped they would
not forget this side of the House. The hon.
member then referred at considerable length to
the supply system, and the detrimental effects
produced by the fishermen being compelled to
sell their fish green, for food. He referred to
some cases of extortion. He drew particular
attention to the great want and poverty that existed among the people, and appealed
to the
government not to allow the people to starve.
Mr. HOGSETT thought that he had said everything that was necessary upon the paragraph
before the chair, and the amendment which had
been proposed. It appeared, however, that the
hon. Receiver General had been hatching an
egg, and wanted to lay it. He (Mr. H.) had
been told that the Hon. Receiver General had
flung a letter in the faces of the oppositions
which he alleged he had received from the Right
Rev. Dr. Mullock. Now he (Mr. H) could
not see why that Right Revd. Prelate's name
should be dragged bafore this House, and used
as a means of itimidating and controlling that
independance of action which this side of the
House possesses. Did the hon Receiver General
think to whip us into line by a letter of that
description? Did we see any Protestant gentleman in this House dragging in his Bishop's
name before the House, and making it the subject of debate? Why, the very fact of
so violating the pivacy of that communication shows
that the hon. Receiver General would, if it suited
his purpose, betray Dr. Mullock to-morrow.
The hon Receiver General had received that
letter in compliment to the speech which he delivered, and he now hurls it before
this House
as an evidance that he was the champion of the
Catholic interests of this country. Why, the hon
Receiver General killed more Catholics, and
is answerable for more Catholic blood than
any man that ever stepped upou our shores.
II6 drags his Bishop's name, now before this
House to be the scoffing and sport of those
who did not agree with him in his religious
views, in order to cover his own insolence and
cowardice. There was one Bishop in this country
if his faith, who had given the hon Receiver
General character and standing in the community, and yet he ungratefully abused him.
How often had he (Mr. H.) heard him wag
his tongue against his Bishop? Why if the
Right Revd. Dr. Mullock associated with the
Receiver General, he would lower his position
and do injury to his sacred character. The opposition knew their Bishop and respected
him, and
when he was attacked they would defend him.
They would not go behind his back to
[?]
him. If he (Mr. H.) thought proper to show
when the Receiver General forget he was a Catholic and a Christian. He (Mr. H.) warned
him
not again to drag the name of that exalted
individual before this House. It was only
cowards and knaves who would do such a thing.
He (Mr. H.) had got up merely to give expression is these views. Let him go and put
his head in a padding bag, forswear politics;
and do penance for the wrongs that he had done
that great and good man, his Bishop, and the
insult he had ordered to every Roman Catholic
from Cape John to Cape Ray.
The paragraph was then adopted.
On motion of
Mr. GODDEN, the Committee
then rose, and the Chairman reported that the
Committee had passed the address without
amendment
On motion that the said report be received
Mr. PARSONS moved and
Mr. GLEN seconded
the following amendment to the second paragraph of the address:—
While we admit the necessity for the large
outlay under the head of relief of the able bodied
poor, we cannot refrain from expressing our disapproval of the injudicious mode in
which such
outlay was effected, and our regret, that no
remedial measures had been adopted by the
Government to relieve the evils accruing to the
poor from its stoppage.
The amendment was put and lost on a division,—Yeahs, Messrs Glen, Hogsett, Parsons,
Brennan, Kearney, Little, Talbot, Major
Renouf; Nays—Hons Attorney General
Colonial Secretary, Receiver General, A. Shea,
the Surveyor General, Mesrs Randell, Knight,
Burton, Oakley, Evans, Barnett, Prowse
Pinsent, Barron. O'Rielly, Green, Goddeu
Kavanagh.
Mr. HOGSETT then moved in amendment
seconded, by
Mr. TALBOT, that the fourth
paragraph be expunged and the following substituted in lieu thereof:—
In reference to the French shore question,
we fail to discover in your Excelleusy's speech
any thing that relievs this important matter
from the difficulties which surrounded it on
the occasion of the address of the Legislature
in the past session; and whilst we recognise
your Excellency's conduct in a desire to bring
this subject to a satisfactory conclusion, we
cannot but regret that no reply has been
made to the resolutions and petitions of this
Legislature, and that the policy indicated in
Lord Carnarvon's despatch of the 7th December, 1866, is approved of by the late
Secretary of State for the Colonies.
The amendment was put and lost on a
similar division to the foregoing.
Mr. TALBOT then moved, in amendment,
seconded by
Major Renouf, that the sixth paragraph be expunged, and the following substituted in lieu thereof:—
With regard to the question of Confederation,
we beg respectfully to observe that the only
scheme having reference to this matter which
has been submitted to our consideration with
that known by this name of the Qeubec Resolutions, and that scheme has already been
rejected
by the Legislature and the country; and we
further take leave to express to your Excelleney
our conviction and desire that a subject of
such vital importance to the liberties of the
country should be submitted to the decision
of the people at the polls, before any further
action be taken upon it by the Legislature.
The amendment was put and lost, on a
similar division to the foregoing.
The original motion was then put and
carried.
Ordered that the address be read a third
time to-morrow.
The House than adjourned till to-morrow,
at 3 o'clock.
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